2009 MLB Discussion Thread

[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Good for him. He also lost any and all respect he had in the baseball community and will go down as the biggest blight in the most tainted era in the game.[/QUOTE]

The thing is, being a Giants fan and a Bonds fan as well, the dude really never cared whether people liked him or not.

He cheated, no different than anyone else in the league, but what I've always thought is that his intensity and workout regimen (excluding the cream & clear, dude went Jordan-esque).

Does he care that he's getting screwed over worse than anyone else? No....just who he is.

His attitude really separates everything, people love/bash A-Rod, but the bashing isn't even the same stratosphere as the Bonds hate.
 
[quote name='ph33r m3']The thing is, being a Giants fan and a Bonds fan as well, the dude really never cared whether people liked him or not.

He cheated, no different than anyone else in the league, but what I've always thought is that his intensity and workout regimen (excluding the cream & clear, dude went Jordan-esque).

Does he care that he's getting screwed over worse than anyone else? No....just who he is.

His attitude really separates everything, people love/bash A-Rod, but the bashing isn't even the same stratosphere as the Bonds hate.[/QUOTE]

He is egotistical enough that he will care if he isn't in the Hall of Fame. That would be the ultimate slap in his face.
 
I want to hear the Roid Sox Fans continue to cry for a salary cap when they trade the future Casey Fossum/ Tony Armas Jr of the world to get Roy Halladay. I bet the Blue Jays get less than the Diamondbacks and Expos got for Pedro/Schilling.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']I want to hear the Roid Sox Fans continue to cry for a salary cap when they trade the future Casey Fossum/ Tony Armas Jr of the world to get Roy Halladay. I bet the Blue Jays get less than the Diamondbacks and Expos got for Pedro/Schilling.[/QUOTE]

Roidees spend what they make, that's fine. It'd be stupid for a Red Sox fan to bitch about salary cap, I sure don't. Something needs to be done about revenue sharing to force other teams to spend money to better their teams.
 
[quote name='craven_fiend']He is egotistical enough that he will care if he isn't in the Hall of Fame. That would be the ultimate slap in his face.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. If we are to believe the things people have said about him, he was insanely jealous about the attention Mark McGwire was getting during his homerun chase. It will definitely eat away at him if the voters give him the same treatment as Big Mac.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Exactly. If we are to believe the things people have said about him, he was insanely jealous about the attention Mark McGwire was getting during his homerun chase. It will definitely eat away at him if the voters give him the same treatment as Big Mac.[/QUOTE]

He'll make it.

Bonds is/was an asshole, but his gripe about McGwire was fully justified.....the hate/racism toward Bonds and not toward McGwire pissed him off the most (all reports from SF Chronicle).
 
I have absolutely no idea why the Diamondbacks would trade Scherzer and Schlereth for Edwin Jackson and Ian Kennedy.

Thanks, Josh Byrnes.
 
I'd like to thank the Arizona Diamondbacks for doing everything in their power to help the Dodgers to another NL West championship next year. With enemies like these, who needs friends?
 
Not really, they will probably be very good for us in the short term. But in terms of the future, absolutely. They are doing a good job of hurting the future of this club.

Scherzer is going to be a dominant pitcher in a couple of years.
 
"Probably" and "very good" is pretty optimistic about Edwin Jackson. One season does not a very good pitcher make. He's a two pitch pitcher (he literally does not have a third pitch) with a career ERA of 4.66. Last season was the first and only time he's had an ERA below 4.4.

And I just didn't see anything special about Kennedy.

I was not looking forward to Scherzer pitching against us 3-5 times a year. I can't believe he was traded at all. His upside is scary. The Dbags got two bottom of the rotation pitchers for a top shelf super young guy that could be a #1 in a year or two and may end up a top 5 or 10 guy in baseball if the breaks go his way. Shit, I bet he's better than one or both of the guys the Dbags got in 2010.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']I want to hear the Roid Sox Fans continue to cry for a salary cap when they trade the future Casey Fossum/ Tony Armas Jr of the world to get Roy Halladay. I bet the Blue Jays get less than the Diamondbacks and Expos got for Pedro/Schilling.[/QUOTE]
I liked John Henry's proposal and I think the Yankees did too. End revenue sharing as it stands completely, subsidize those shitty teams with a luxury tax and add requirements that they actually spend the money. Something like 5 of the 7 biggest recipients of revenue sharing are the most profitable teams in baseball because of it.

The Yankees gross a billion dollars a year, they can spend it however they want. But don't penalize teams for being profitable, take a percentage of what they spend on payroll above, say, 90 to 100 million and use that only for payroll for the small markets to bridge the gap.


Sox are trying to trade Lowell to Texas for Max Ramirez, a minor league catcher who has already been traded twice for Bob Wickman and Kenny Lofton. Not a great prospect but should be a decent bat off the bench. Sox also got Boof Bonser from the Twins, another reclamation project.

I get the feeling that the Sox aren't that committed to this year and are thinking more about next season. They need to make a major move for Halladay, Gonzalez, etc.

Angels just offered Saunders, Aybar, and minor league OF Bourjos for Halladay.
 
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[quote name='speedracer']He's a two pitch pitcher (he literally does not have a third pitch) [/QUOTE]

That's not really true. He doesn't throw them enough, but he does have a curve and change besides the fastball and slider he relies on.
 
[quote name='namtrahj']That's not really true. He doesn't throw them enough, but he does have a curve and change besides the fastball and slider he relies on.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't counting his fastball, though he throws it and the slider the most as you said. His fastball has never been a plus pitch for him in his entire career. Never once. His change is also a negative pitch over each of the last four years. His slider is his real pitch, with the curve never being of more than marginal value (if not negative) before last year. Even then, the curve didn't do *that* much for him.

His fastball is incredibly a minus minus pitch. His slider is a plus plus. The curve is neutral and the change is a minus. He looks on the surface to be the perfect candidate for a regression from last year's numbers. You can't hide a shit fastball forever and he can't throw the slider every pitch. The curve and change are nowhere near the quality needed to call them "out" pitches.

When you match the strong possibility of a regression with the progression viewed for Scherzer, it's a no brainer. Jackson's a 4th starter, maybe jumping to 2nd on a bad team or if he continues to increase the value of his slider (which actually decreased in value this year from the year previous).

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1841&position=P#pitchtype
 
[quote name='speedracer']"Probably" and "very good" is pretty optimistic about Edwin Jackson. One season does not a very good pitcher make. He's a two pitch pitcher (he literally does not have a third pitch) with a career ERA of 4.66. Last season was the first and only time he's had an ERA below 4.4.

And I just didn't see anything special about Kennedy.

I was not looking forward to Scherzer pitching against us 3-5 times a year. I can't believe he was traded at all. His upside is scary. The Dbags got two bottom of the rotation pitchers for a top shelf super young guy that could be a #1 in a year or two and may end up a top 5 or 10 guy in baseball if the breaks go his way. Shit, I bet he's better than one or both of the guys the Dbags got in 2010.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to argue with you about Scherzer being better than the two players the Diamondbacks received, that's a no brainer. I'm definitely not happy with the trade if that's what you think, it was a dumb move.

But the point I'm trying to make is that I believe Jackson can have an immediate positive impact for the team in the short term. Scherzer needs to work on getting guys out, he often hits a wall in the 6th inning and the Diamondbacks had to resort to the horrendous pen sooner. But yeah, in a couple of years Scherzer should be one of the top pitchers in the game.
 
[quote name='speedracer']

When you match the strong possibility of a regression with the progression viewed for Scherzer, it's a no brainer. Jackson's a 4th starter, maybe jumping to 2nd on a bad team or if he continues to increase the value of his slider (which actually decreased in value this year from the year previous).
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with your assessment. I was just pointing out that the guy does throw more than two pitches, even if they're not effective. He looked like he might be for real early last year, since he had supposedly had some kind of breakthrough with his curve late in 08 in Tampa. But then he didn't even throw the pitch that much and clearly wore down/was figured out down the stretch.

I'm not sure that he didn't have some kind of sustainable improvement last year, though. His BABIP was on the low side but not outrageous, and his xFIP and FIP both showed improvement. He also got his walks more under control. I think the most concerning thing about him is that he's become more of a flyball pitcher, which won't play nearly as well in Arizona as it did in Detroit--and he gave up quite a few homers in Detroit as it is.
 
[quote name='yukine']I'm not going to argue with you about Scherzer being better than the two players the Diamondbacks received, that's a no brainer. I'm definitely not happy with the trade if that's what you think, it was a dumb move.[/QUOTE]
As a fan of a competing NL West team, I just wanted you to say it. ;)

Hooray for namtrahj! I can start talking about BABIP and xFIP now!
 
fuck MY LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Halladay to the Phillies
Lackey to the Red Sox
Lee to the Mariners

fuck you OMAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']fuck MY LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Halladay to the Phillies
Lackey to the Red Sox
Lee to the Mariners

fuck you OMAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111[/QUOTE]

This gave me a chuckle.

As a Sox fan, I like the Lackey signing, though its certainly nagging at me how poorly he's pitched at Fenway over the years. It's not just one or two starts, he's been terrible there.

They're definitely going to have a sick rotation next year (not that they didn't already).
 
Yeah, it's an odd trade. I'd think the Phillies would want to hold on to Lee. Even if he's a free agent after this year, that's one year they could of had Halladay and Lee in the rotation.

Now they just swapped one ace for another, and that's not really going to help beat the Yankees in the series if that's.
 
I don't like signing free agent pitchers to big money.
I never considered Lackey to be a real #1.
And he's not as good as Halladay.

However:

Halladay would've cost them Buchholz and most of their top prospects, and you still would've had to sign him to an extension. Lackey only costs you money. Putting the rest of the prospects aside, I'd rather have Lackey and Buchholz over Halladay.

The deal is supposed to be right around what Burnett got, for the same money I think I'd take Lackey.

They've improved their pitching and they still have prospects to trade for a bat, maybe even Buchholz if its for Adrian Gonzalez. Their rotation is pretty set, though I'd like them to go out and get Wang anyway. He's very bitter towards the Yankees and I love sinkerball pitchers.

Beckett
Lester
Lackey
Buchholz
Matsuzaka/Wakefield
 
[quote name='bvharris']This gave me a chuckle.

As a Sox fan, I like the Lackey signing, though its certainly nagging at me how poorly he's pitched at Fenway over the years. It's not just one or two starts, he's been terrible there.

They're definitely going to have a sick rotation next year (not that they didn't already).[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the Lackey deal looks good, but those are the kind of contracts that scare the shit out of you. 5 years and $85 million? That's more than AJ Burnett got. In addition to not being very good at Fenway, Lackey's had a few injuries lately too. That deal will probably either be great or terrible.

[quote name='speedracer']Cliff Lee to the Mariners. Huh. I would not have guessed that. Wonder who Seattle's gonna cough up for him.[/QUOTE]

3 team deal. Seattle and Philadelphia sending prospects to Toronto, while Seattle and Philly get proven pitchers. I'm just glad Halladay is out of the AL BEast.
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']fuck MY LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Halladay to the Phillies
Lackey to the Red Sox
Lee to the Mariners

fuck you OMAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111[/QUOTE]

+1

Apparently being the Mets GM means doing nothing all day.

I'm actually glad the Mets stayed away from Lackey - he will be a huge bust, IMO. I also think I'd rather have C. Lee instead of Halladay since C. Lee is a proven post-season and NL STUD. Halladay is obviously great but he's 32 and probably has his best years behind him. Even though C.Lee is 31 I feel like he just "figured it out" about 2.5 seasons ago and still has a lot left in the tank.
 
At first I was mad at letting go of Lee for Halladay, I'd rather give Hamels the fucking boot and keep both Lee and Halladay, but I can see why they did this. On paper, Halladay is better than Lee and Lee was looking for a payday that the Phils didn't want to bother with. I'm also glad they didn't give up Happ. Its just kind of sad that the only two wins the Phils got in the WS were behind a pitcher they just got rid of. Hopefully it all works out.
 
[quote name='javeryh']Apparently being the Mets GM means doing nothing all day.[/QUOTE]
Not to say Omar shouldn't do anything useful, but I'd be surprised if the Wilpons have more money to spend. There's no other reason why the Mets haven't even been seriously rumored to be attached to a player.

On the other side of town.... Why the fuck did the Yankees release Chien Ming Wang!? Dude was a beast! Considering that he posted 19 win seasons in his last two healthy years, a rejuvenated Wang (lol?) in the rotation would have definitely made the pitching staff look excellent. So now there's the two moneybags, Andy Pettite, and.....? Who?
 
Wang was a really good pitcher but ever since that foot injury in 2008 he's been terrible. The Yankees are betting he won't ever come all the way back and I'd say that's a safe bet.

The Mets aren't going after anyone because they are probably thinking about blowing up the team. The core has proven they cannot win when it counts. I'd keep Beltran, Wright, Santana and K-Rod. Everyone else can suck it.
 
[quote name='Chronis']On the other side of town.... Why the fuck did the Yankees release Chien Ming Wang!? Dude was a beast! Considering that he posted 19 win seasons in his last two healthy years, a rejuvenated Wang (lol?) in the rotation would have definitely made the pitching staff look excellent. So now there's the two moneybags, Andy Pettite, and.....? Who?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, what you gotta realize about Wang is that he started "pitching to the money", if you will. He's been trying to raise his strikeout totals, and his ERA and WHIP have been awful as a result. And in my opinion, he's been in the doghouse in NY for a while now. He essentially single-handedly ruined the 2007 postseason. And then, after an unfortunate foot injury in June of 2008, he apparently did nothing to rehab, and wasn't ready to go 10 months later.

After the initial blow up, when he was rehabbing and trying to come back from the DL, he made statements that he was 100% healthy, but he was still getting bombed in AAA. His sinker was horribly flat, and he couldn't keep it down. Then, all of a sudden he had a "season ending injury" and hasn't been heard from since.

Word is, he won't even be ready to pitch until August/September next year. He was really on the cusp of big pitcher money, but I think this is the Yankees way of bringing him back down to earth. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing him back, but he's barely worth more than Carl Pavano at this point. Any team that gives him more than $1 million is stupid.
 
Actually, speaking of NY teams... and pitchers... and injuries... what happened to John Maine? He was the Wang of the Mets, being the forced ace and doing pretty well, while everyone else was meh.
 
[quote name='Chronis']Actually, speaking of NY teams... and pitchers... and injuries... what happened to John Maine? He was the Wang of the Mets, being the forced ace and doing pretty well, while everyone else was meh.[/QUOTE]

I always thought Jose Reyes was the Wang of the Mets...





:D
 
Why the hell would you get rid of Lee?
If it wasn't for him the Phillies wouldn't have came as close to even winning those two games in the WS. Is it only cause Lee wants to test the free agent market? Give me a break.

Sox should really persue Bay to, I don't get wtf they are doing. Do they really believe Halladay is better?
 
[quote name='Monsta Mack']Why the hell would you get rid of Lee?
If it wasn't for him the Phillies wouldn't have came as close to even winning those two games in the WS. Is it only cause Lee wants to test the free agent market? Give me a break.

Sox should really persue Bay to, I don't get wtf they are doing. Do they really believe Halladay is better?[/QUOTE]

Why keep a pitcher that you are positive you won't be able to hold onto after next season (who went as far as to say in an interview that he was interested in going out and "doing what CC did") when you can lock-up a similar absolute stud for 4 years?

Not trying to sound like a Phillies homer but the deal makes absolute sense to me.
 
Mike Cameron to the Sox... Don't like it. Will likely platoon with Jeremy Hermida.

Their lineup is going to suck next year, replace Jason Bay with Mike Cameron and Mike Lowell with Adrian Beltre or Casey Kotchman. Don't know what they're thinking.

He might be seen as a replacement for Ellsbury if they trade him
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Mike Cameron to the Sox... Don't like it. Will likely platoon with Jeremy Hermida.

Their lineup is going to suck next year, replace Jason Bay with Mike Cameron and Mike Lowell with Adrian Beltre or Casey Kotchman. Don't know what they're thinking.

He might be seen as a replacement for Ellsbury if they trade him[/QUOTE]

Conversely, they will easily have the best defense in the majors by a fairy large margin. Assuming they sign Beltre, they will have improved significantly at three key defensive spots (LF, 3B, SS) and they were already strong everywhere else.

Is a lineup of Ellsbury - Pedroia - VMart - Youkilis - Ortiz - Cameron - Beltre - Drew - Scutaro really so bad? Yes, they're not the Yankees, but that's a top five run-scoring offense at the end of the year in my estimation. Beltre, Cameron, and Scutaro aren't offensive all-stars, but none of them are slouches with the bat. And lets not understate having V-Mart over Tek for a full year.

If the last domino to fall is signing Beltre (or, conversely, trading for Adrian Gonzalez) than I will be pretty happy with the complexion of the team.
 
[quote name='bvharris']This gave me a chuckle.

As a Sox fan, I like the Lackey signing, though its certainly nagging at me how poorly he's pitched at Fenway over the years. It's not just one or two starts, he's been terrible there.

They're definitely going to have a sick rotation next year (not that they didn't already).[/QUOTE]

Hehe glad i can amuse :lol:

Im just frustrated that the mets have done ZERO to improve their squad and they had 2 months to do so. All they brought in were Henry Blanco and Chris Coste. And now we have to deal with Halladay on a constant basis and the Phillies are probably still in the market for more players. They will run away with this division again. plus Holliday is bound to return to the Cards with the new 130million 8 year deal they are going to give him. So that leaves Jason Bay who pretty much struggled down to the stretch to his .263 BA. The team needs pitching and Omar hasn't found an answer for that yet and he may never will for the 2010 season.
[quote name='javeryh']+1

Apparently being the Mets GM means doing nothing all day.

I'm actually glad the Mets stayed away from Lackey - he will be a huge bust, IMO. I also think I'd rather have C. Lee instead of Halladay since C. Lee is a proven post-season and NL STUD. Halladay is obviously great but he's 32 and probably has his best years behind him. Even though C.Lee is 31 I feel like he just "figured it out" about 2.5 seasons ago and still has a lot left in the tank.[/QUOTE]


I wish the Mets got SOMEONE!!!!! I truthfully think all the mets will do is resign Delgado and sign an over the hill Bengie Molina(but now since he wants a 3 year deal,Forget about it!)

after that, they will sign some minor league deals and go in to 2010 with the same team that chokes and sucks. I really hope i am proven wrong.
 
[quote name='bvharris']Conversely, they will easily have the best defense in the majors by a fairy large margin. Assuming they sign Beltre, they will have improved significantly at three key defensive spots (LF, 3B, SS) and they were already strong everywhere else.

Is a lineup of Ellsbury - Pedroia - VMart - Youkilis - Ortiz - Cameron - Beltre - Drew - Scutaro really so bad? Yes, they're not the Yankees, but that's a top five run-scoring offense at the end of the year in my estimation. Beltre, Cameron, and Scutaro aren't offensive all-stars, but none of them are slouches with the bat. And lets not understate having V-Mart over Tek for a full year.

If the last domino to fall is signing Beltre (or, conversely, trading for Adrian Gonzalez) than I will be pretty happy with the complexion of the team.[/QUOTE]
Its not an impressive lineup by any stretch. They need a 40HR, 120RBI guy in the middle or they won't score any runs against good pitching, like last year. Subtracting Bay and Lowell, and replacing them with Cameron and Beltre is not an upgrade. Even with Scutaro instead of Gonzalez/Lowrie/Green, they're worse than last year.

Cameron is a dead pull hitter so his numbers should be better at Fenway, but that also doesn't address their problems hitting on the road.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Its not an impressive lineup by any stretch. They need a 40HR, 120RBI guy in the middle or they won't score any runs against good pitching, like last year. Subtracting Bay and Lowell, and replacing them with Cameron and Beltre is not an upgrade. Even with Scutaro instead of Gonzalez/Lowrie/Green, they're worse than last year.

Cameron is a dead pull hitter so his numbers should be better at Fenway, but that also doesn't address their problems hitting on the road.[/QUOTE]

Compared to what? Compared to the Yankees lineup? No. But you can't tell me with a straight face that it's not still one of the 3 or 4 best lineups in the American League.

Will they score fewer runs? Its likely. But you can't pretend that the improvements to the pitching and defense don't offset that to a significant degree.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Its not an impressive lineup by any stretch. They need a 40HR, 120RBI guy in the middle or they won't score any runs against good pitching, like last year. Subtracting Bay and Lowell, and replacing them with Cameron and Beltre is not an upgrade. Even with Scutaro instead of Gonzalez/Lowrie/Green, they're worse than last year.

Cameron is a dead pull hitter so his numbers should be better at Fenway, but that also doesn't address their problems hitting on the road.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I gotta agree here. That's a .265 lineup if I ever saw one. I'm starting to think Theo Epstein is getting too "smart" for his own good. Going all the way back to last year with the Penny and Smoltz signings, it seems like you guys have been content to bring in players that other teams have essentially given up on, hoping that they'll respond to a change of scenery.

Now, with Hermida, Cameron, Scutaro, those would have been great guys to pick up while Manny and Ortiz were still crushing the ball. They're role players. They're not difference makers. You gotta have a big bat to make the little things they do matter. You can't just have a bunch of guys doing little things. Youkilis and Pedroia will need to have a HUGE year for the team to be successful. But, if you bring in AGon, it changes everything. But I doubt that's going to happen as he actually wants to stay in SD.

I guess the logic behind these moves is that shoring up the defense makes more sense with a pitching staff that SHOULD be dominant. But it also puts a lot of pressure on your pitchers because I don't see that lineup averaging more than 4 runs per game.
 
[quote name='bvharris']Compared to what? Compared to the Yankees lineup? No. But you can't tell me with a straight face that it's not still one of the 3 or 4 best lineups in the American League.

Will they score fewer runs? Its likely. But you can't pretend that the improvements to the pitching and defense don't offset that to a significant degree.[/QUOTE]

3 or 4 best lineups? Are you mad? The Yankees and Angels already had a better offense, and the lowly Twins only scored 55 less runs. Then, you've got underachieving Tampa Bay, Toronto, and Cleveland, not to mention an on the rise Texas team. And those are just the teams that scored within 100 runs of the Sox last year. Lowell and Bay had 194 RBIs. Beltre had 44 and Cameron had 70. That puts you in a fight with Texas for 7th in the AL, with Cleveland hot on your heels.

I realize Boston's pitching could make up for it, and they could still have a good team. But your initial argument was that their lineup was still one of the best in the AL. At least be objective about it. After missing out on Teixeira last year, I really would have thought that Boston would go hard after at least ONE big bat. I'm sorry, but you have no one in that lineup that a manager might have to pitch around.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']3 or 4 best lineups? Are you mad? The Yankees and Angels already had a better offense, and the lowly Twins only scored 55 less runs. Then, you've got underachieving Tampa Bay, Toronto, and Cleveland, not to mention an on the rise Texas team. And those are just the teams that scored within 100 runs of the Sox last year. Lowell and Bay had 194 RBIs. Beltre had 44 and Cameron had 70. That puts you in a fight with Texas for 7th in the AL, with Cleveland hot on your heels.

I realize Boston's pitching could make up for it, and they could still have a good team. But your initial argument was that their lineup was still one of the best in the AL. At least be objective about it. After missing out on Teixeira last year, I really would have thought that Boston would go hard after at least ONE big bat. I'm sorry, but you have no one in that lineup that a manager might have to pitch around.[/QUOTE]

You're comparing a year in which Jason Bay achieved his career high in RBIs against a year in which Adrian Beltre achieved his career low, mostly due to injury. You're also doing so completely free of ballpark context, but I'm sure it's no shock to you that Bay hit in one of the best hitters parks in the American league while Beltre hit in one of the worst. If you want to compare an essentially meaningless stat like RBI in trying to asses the productivity of an offense, at least give it some context.

Am I saying the Sox would be better offensively than last year? No. But defense factors into the equation too, and what they're putting together is a very good defensive ballclub. Additionally, there's a benefit to building a lineup 1-9, and whether they have that "one bat who scares you" or not, there are no easy outs in that lineup either.

I in no way think they have leapfrogged the Yankees, but the Red Sox have pretty clearly shown they don't care about beating the Yankees for the division. They're content to win 95 games and the wild card every year, and have been remarkably consistent in doing so. I don't see any reason why this team as presently constituted (with the addition of Beltre or Gonzalez) doesn't project to have a similar season.
 
[quote name='bvharris']You're comparing a year in which Jason Bay achieved his career high in RBIs against a year in which Adrian Beltre achieved his career low, mostly due to injury. You're also doing so completely free of ballpark context, but I'm sure it's no shock to you that Bay hit in one of the best hitters parks in the American league while Beltre hit in one of the worst. If you want to compare an essentially meaningless stat like RBI in trying to asses the productivity of an offense, at least give it some context.

Am I saying the Sox would be better offensively than last year? No. But defense factors into the equation too, and what they're putting together is a very good defensive ballclub. Additionally, there's a benefit to building a lineup 1-9, and whether they have that "one bat who scares you" or not, there are no easy outs in that lineup either.

I in no way think they have leapfrogged the Yankees, but the Red Sox have pretty clearly shown they don't care about beating the Yankees for the division. They're content to win 95 games and the wild card every year, and have been remarkably consistent in doing so. I don't see any reason why this team as presently constituted (with the addition of Beltre or Gonzalez) doesn't project to have a similar season.[/QUOTE]

You called them a top 3 or 4 lineup. That was the point I disagreed with. They were already the #3 offense in the AL. If they're not better this year, they will be passed. That's all I'm saying.

Beltre has largely underperformed since being given his huge Seattle deal. If you're expecting him to be a "big free agent signing", you're dreaming. My main consideration is the quality of the players...and Cameron is not half the player that Bay is. Beltre will be lucky if he hits anything close to what Bay did last year.

To me, the bigger picture in all this is why the Red Sox AREN'T trying to improve their lineup. Yes, I know, pitching wins championships. But you still gotta score runs.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']Now, I know you're crazy. You called them a top 3 or 4 lineup. That was the point I disagreed with. They were already the #3 offense in the AL. If they're not better this year, they will be passed. I can promise you that.

Beltre has largely underperformed since being given his huge Seattle deal. If you're expecting him to be a "big free agent signing", you're dreaming. My main consideration is the quality of the players...and Cameron is not half the player that Bay is. Beltre will be lucky if he hits anything close to what Bay did last year.

To me, the bigger picture in all this is why the Red Sox AREN'T trying to improve their lineup. Yes, I know, pitching wins championships. But you still gotta score runs.[/QUOTE]

I don't at all expect Beltre to be a big free agent signing, and I never said I did. But its about getting pieces that work towards the philosophy of what you're trying to build. The Sox clearly are moving their team in the direction of pitching and defense. Whether I agree with that philosophy or not doesn't matter, the point is that they stick to it. Adding two plus defenders like Cameron and Beltre makes more sense in this context than overspending on big bats like Bay or Holliday who are mediocre defenders at best.

And no, I'm not crazy in asserting that the Sox have a very real chance to have a top 3 or 4 offense in the AL next year. Lowell is clearly in the twilight of his career, and Beltre's numbers would project to at the very least improve if he's healthy and with the move from Safeco to Fenway. And don't forget the benefit of a full year of V-Mart replacing the black hole of Jason Varitek's offense. Assuming Pedroia and Youkilis remain consistent and Ellsbury continues to develop as he has, even conservative guesses for Ortiz (.270, 25, 100) and Drew (.265, 18, 75) mean that it will be by no means a joke of an offense.

It's amazing to me you're saying I'm crazy when not 5 posts ago you said the Red Sox wouldn't score more than 4 runs a game, when they haven't scored less than 5 runs per game this DECADE (edit: 2001 was the last time, actually). An offensive collapse of that magnitude would be historic, and unless Jason Bay is suddenly the '27 Yankees all rolled into one, I have a hard time seeing it. But yeah, I'm the one who's crazy.

Edit: I take it you editing your post to remove the part about me being crazy means you've realized I'm not? :D
 
To give a little more context to how ridiculous the "4 runs per game" thing is, the Red Sox have scored less than 4 runs a game precisely twice since World War II (1968 and 1992).

The Terry Francona era:

2009 - 5.38
2008 - 5.21
2007 - 5.35
2006 - 5.06
2005 - 5.61
2004 - 5.85

Yet suddenly they're anemic and won't top 4 a game. Or even 5.

And I'm crazy.
 
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[quote name='n8rockerasu']3 or 4 best lineups? Are you mad? The Yankees and Angels already had a better offense, and the lowly Twins only scored 55 less runs. Then, you've got underachieving Tampa Bay, Toronto, and Cleveland, not to mention an on the rise Texas team. [/QUOTE]

You can't criticize the Red Sox lineup for its lack of "difference-makers" and then throw out a bunch of potentially better lineups with the same problem. I'll give you the Yankees, but you can't honestly state that any other team in the AL has a clear offensive edge on the Red Sox going into 2010. None of those teams has a significantly better heart of the lineup than the Red Sox do--and it's shortsighted to to judge an offense by its core only, anyway. As the team stands now, they'll have three guys who should post an OPS of around .900, while the lineup will be solid from top to bottom. And don't forget that they gave over 850 PAs to Varitek, Lugo and Green last year.

As for Theo being too smart for his own good, I'd wait for the offseason to be over before passing judgment. I still think an Adrian Gonzalez trade is very possible. And it's always been part of his MO to look for diamonds in the rough. He's done that all along but it doesn't stop them from making a big splash when it makes sense.
 
The more I thought about it, the more I couldn't figure out why it was so imperative for the Phils to move Lee as a prereq to get getting Roy. Surfed on over to Fangraphs and whaddyaknow?
The Cliff Lee to Seattle portion of this trade just seems very light in return for the Phillies. They’re getting two power arms with a lot of questions marks and a speedy center fielder without a lot of power. None of these guys are top tier prospects. This is the best Philadelphia could have gotten for Lee? Really? A pu-pu platter of interesting, high-risk guys not really close to the majors for a Cy Young-quality pitcher who is already well on his way to Type A free agency?

And, even if that’s true, why clear $8 million from the books by trading Lee? Surely, you could have moved Joe Blanton without eating any of his salary, even if you didn’t love the deals being offered. Or, how about this – don’t sign J.C. Romero, Brian Schneider, and Ross Gload, whose 2010 salaries are about equal to Lee’s. Replace those three reserves with league minimum guys and you’ve saved enough money to keep Lee around.

Halladay will help them, and the extension he signed is a great deal. But it just seems like they bent over backwards to make this particular deal, when there were so many other ways of going about it. It just seems to me that the Phillies could have had Halladay and Lee, and that reality would leave me pretty frustrated today if I were a Phillies fan.
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Yeah, the Lee-to-Halladay upgrade seemed strange to me even when it was being reported as a three-team trade. Now that it's coming out that it's two separate trades it makes even less sense. I can only guess that there was something else going on behind the scenes, because on the surface it's pretty perplexing.
 
From what I've read/heard, it was just that the Phillies didn't want keep Lee for one year when they knew they couldn't afford him after that.

And they wanted to get back some prospects since they gave up some to get him and Halladay. So rather than keeping Lee to put beside Halladay for one year and being out a ton of prospects, they decided to get Halladay, sign him for a few years and trade Lee and get some prospects.

I can see the long term benefit. But sports is more about putting the best team you can on the field in the present, so if I were them I'd have kept Lee and Halladay. With just one of them I still don't think the beat the Yankees or other top AL teams in the series. It didn't work last year, don't see why it would this coming season.
 
The lack of an impact bat in the Sox lineup last year is what killed them. They'll put up runs against mediocre pitching in the regular season as they always have, but when the playoffs come around, and all they're facing are #1 and #2 starters, they're going to struggle.

In 04 and 07, they had two #1 starters AND two of the top 5 hitters in baseball. Right now, I'm not sure if they've got anyone in the top 25. Theres not a lot of power in that lineup, no one is a lock for 30 HR. How can one of the top 5 payrolls not have a single elite power bat in their lineup?

They are content to win 95 games and get the wildcard, and thats the problem. The road to the World Series goes through the Yankees, their lineup last year wasn't even good enough to beat the Angels and now its appreciably worse. If you're not competing with the Yankees, you're not competing for the World Series.

That lineup is adequate to get into the playoffs but they can and should do better.
 
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Youkilis was had the 6th-highest OPS in baseball last year. He was 10th in 2008. How is he not an elite bat?

They might not have the equivalent of the 2004 Manny/Ortiz combo, but assuming that they sign Beltre they'll have six spots in the lineup where you can expect at least 20 HRs, and potentially double-digit HRs from every spot in the lineup. That's more power than they got out of the 07 or even 04 teams.

Edited to point out that, even if the Red Sox offense does slip a bit this year, a good comp would be the 06 Tigers. The Tigers had arguably the best pitching and fielding in the AL, while they scored the 5th-most runs despite not having a single "elite" level hitter. They were successful because they were good at preventing runs and they were solid throughout the lineup. I do still think the 10 Red Sox will be better than the 06 Tigers on both sides of the ball, though.
 
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Lackey has pitched quite well at Fenway in his recent starts so I think that knock against him is overblown. Also keep in mind he was pitching AGAINST the Sox so that also won't be an issue.

The Sox now have the best pitching staff in the AL and sets up a major trade involving Buchholz for a big bat (can anyone say Adrian Gonzalez?) . If this happens, the Sox are the AL East champs.
 
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