2009 MLB Discussion Thread

[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Sorry, but I have to totally disagree. This was a great move. The Yankees needed a forth starter and another innings eater. Getting Vasquez for Melky, who is an average outfielder, at best, is much better than signing what is out there.

They were interested in Marquis, who signed with Washington. And thank God for that. Marquis in the AL was a disaster waiting to happen. He's way too much of a contact guy. And everyone else they were/are looking at has had health issues, guys like Sheets and Duchscherer. You sign one of them, and they get hurt, you're back in the same spot. The Yankees got very, very, very lucky that their lack of quality starts out of the forth and fifth spots did not bite them in the ass this year. They simply could not risk that again by plugging in health risks.

As far as Vasquez's fist go in New York went, people seem to forget he was a Cy Young candidate in the first half of the year. He had 10 wins and a 3.50 ERA. He developed arm problems, though, and pitched hurt the rest of the year. And even though they traded him for Randy Johnson after that, it was a move Cashman would have preferred not to make.

The last three years, he's thrown 200+ innings and struck out 200+ guys. I'll take that on my team any day of the week. Not to mention he had a 2.87 ERA last year. NL or not, that's a damn good ERA. Even if you want to add a full run to that, you're still looking at a guy with around a 4 ERA. That's gonna win you 15 games with the Yankees, considering the guy always makes 30+ starts.

Lastly, it's not even January, yet, so I would not be concerned about leftfield at all. Not one bit. First of all, it doesn't seem like the market for Damon is nearly as good as he had hoped. He might come crawling back and take the two years at whatever the Yankees offer. If not, there are a ton of options out there as a stopgap until next year, when it seems likely they will make an effort to sign Crawford.[/QUOTE]

I do agree with a lot of your points, but let's not exaggerate. It's more like adding 2 runs to that ERA because most of Vasquez's years in the AL were around the 4.50 range. I do like the fact that he eats innings though, and will provide some stability to the back end of the rotation. I just think his stuff is overrated and AL hitters will get to him...as they have in the past.

But I'll be happy if he can manage to have a year similar to the one Pettitte had last year. I just want the guy to battle and not get shelled by the 4th inning. And like I said, I have no issue that it took Melky Cabrera to get him. I just don't know if Vasquez would have been my choice of the available pitchers. Hopefully it works out though.

But now the question, what do you do with Joba and Hughes? I feel like if the team doesn't give Joba a full year in the rotation with no restrictions, they'll never know what they have. But at the same time, keeping Hughes in the pen only stunts his growth. So, do you leave Hughes at AAA all year (or until someone gets hurt)?
 
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You guys are nuts to still consider Joba a starter. You've got a dominant 7th/8th inning guy who you're trying to turn into a mediocre 5th starter, his stuff's not good enough to get him through the 2nd and 3rd time through the lineup. He can't live without that 95+ mph fastball he can throw out of the bullpen.

As a Red Sox fan I hope he makes 30 starts.
 
I love the Vazquez trade and I am a huge Melky fan. The Yankees were in desperate need of another pitcher. Getting Lee, Halladay, whomever would have been too rich in terms of contract/blue chips given up. The best pitcher on the market was Lackey and the Sox had to pay alot. The rest on the market now is crap.

Vazquez as previously mentioned is a work horse. 200 innings every year the past decade except for 2004 when he had 198 innngs. He also has 1000 k's in the past 1000 innings. He is only signed for 2010 and it's going to be a contract year for him. The guy is going to be 33/34 next year and pitching for his last big contract in baseball. Melky was a 3/4 outfielder and the main prospect pitched in the rookie league. Trade also gives the Yankees some room with Hughes and Joba.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']You guys are nuts to still consider Joba a starter. You've got a dominant 7th/8th inning guy who you're trying to turn into a mediocre 5th starter, his stuff's not good enough to get him through the 2nd and 3rd time through the lineup. He can't live without that 95+ mph fastball he can throw out of the bullpen.

As a Red Sox fan I hope he makes 30 starts.[/QUOTE]

Whether or not Joba can be a successful starter is still up for debate. But please don't use the know nothing fan's "turn him into a starter" crap. He was a starter his entire amateur career and into the minors. He was groomed to be a starter. I agree 100% that he has shown pure dominance as a set up man, but that doesn't negate the work that was previously done.

All he really needs to do is work on throwing that curveball for strikes (really the same problem Hughes has). If he can do that...to go with his slider, he's got 3 plus pitches. It won't matter if his fastball is 92 or 96. He gets into trouble now because hitters know fastball - swing / slider - take. He's a 24 year old kid who needs to learn HOW to pitch. He's no different than half the young guns in the league.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']I do agree with a lot of your points, but let's not exaggerate. It's more like adding 2 runs to that ERA because most of Vasquez's years in the AL were around the 4.50 range.[/QUOTE]

The difference between the NL and AL is not that big. You don't add 2 runs to a guy's ERA. He was one of the best pitchers in the NL last year. I realize his years in the AL were not great. Well, actually, he did not have a pretty good 2007. Anyway, even if you want to add a run and a half, that's still lower than 4.50. That is gonna get you double digit wins easily with the Yankees.

As far as the Joba debate goes, here is how I have seen it...the way I've seen it from the beginning. To me, it doesn't really matter what he was in amateur ball or the minor leagues. If you establish yourself as something in the big leagues, that is what you should do. I mean, we see people change position in football the time when they make the jump to the next level. The game is different, and you can no longer get by on just physical talent. The same applies here. In lower levels, Joba could get away with more as a starter. He probably just blew everyone away in a few pitches, so he didn't have to hold back. Now, batters work him and ring up the pitch count. It's obvious to anyone that watches the Yankees that he holds something back when starting. How many games did we see him hitting 90-91 on the gun...then suddenly when he went back to the pen, he was around 95. The most important point is that the Yankees have a need for a set-up man and a replacement for Rivera. Joba definitely has the attitude and stuff of a top-flight reliever. I'd leave him there.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']The difference between the NL and AL is not that big. You don't add 2 runs to a guy's ERA. He was one of the best pitchers in the NL last year. I realize his years in the AL were not great. Well, actually, he did not have a pretty good 2007. Anyway, even if you want to add a run and a half, that's still lower than 4.50. That is gonna get you double digit wins easily with the Yankees.[/QUOTE]

I just think past performance is a better indicator than some arbitrary +1 assumed difference. It's hard to say how he's going to do back in the AL. Was last year an sign that he's turned the corner in terms of being a "pitcher" rather than a "thrower"? Maybe. Or did he benefit from a 7-9 that couldn't hit their way out of a wet paper bag? Maybe.

But it is only a one year trial, so if things don't go well, he could be out the door by the ASB. At the end of the day, starting pitching is always worth more than a weak hitting outfielder, so even if the Yanks just acquired a trade chip, it's not a bad deal.

[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']As far as the Joba debate goes, here is how I have seen it...the way I've seen it from the beginning. To me, it doesn't really matter what he was in amateur ball or the minor leagues. If you establish yourself as something in the big leagues, that is what you should do. I mean, we see people change position in football the time when they make the jump to the next level. The game is different, and you can no longer get by on just physical talent. The same applies here. In lower levels, Joba could get away with more as a starter. He probably just blew everyone away in a few pitches, so he didn't have to hold back. Now, batters work him and ring up the pitch count. It's obvious to anyone that watches the Yankees that he holds something back when starting. How many games did we see him hitting 90-91 on the gun...then suddenly when he went back to the pen, he was around 95. The most important point is that the Yankees have a need for a set-up man and a replacement for Rivera. Joba definitely has the attitude and stuff of a top-flight reliever. I'd leave him there.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you here. But I don't see how that's any different than any learning period any player in the history of time has had to go through. At some point, EVERY player has to recognize it takes more than talent to succeed at the highest level, and start putting in the work (I'm still waiting for Cano to figure this one out). IF Joba learns how to pitch, I don't see why he can't be a successful starter. There's nothing wrong with his curveball or his slider. He just needs to put in the work to gain better control of them.

At this point, it's on him though. No more babying, no more innings limits, no more extended rest. That's why I say give him one full year as a starter, with regular rest, and if he can't hack it, then send him to the pen. But I think he at least deserves a fair chance.

Honestly, from the beginning, I've associated the Joba situation with the issue the Red Sox went through with Papelbon. The difference is, the Red Sox needed a closer, not a setup man. And Papelbon stepped into a more prestigious role.

But so far, Joba doesn't seem interested (and I can't say that I blame him after Mo recently stated he wants to pitch for 5 more years). But like I said, if he really wants to start, it's on him to put in the work and prove that he can. Because in the end, pitching in the 7th/8th inning is better than not pitching at all.
 
I'm pretty sure Mo wasn't serious about pitching five more years. Gonna go until he is 45? I doubt it. I mean, we've already seen his velocity dip over the last few years. He's still getting away with 91-92 thanks to his movement and control, but when it drops to below 90, like it did early in the year, there are going to be a problem.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']I'm pretty sure Mo wasn't serious about pitching five more years. Gonna go until he is 45? I doubt it. I mean, we've already seen his velocity dip over the last few years. He's still getting away with 91-92 thanks to his movement and control, but when it drops to below 90, like it did early in the year, there are going to be a problem.[/QUOTE]

Well, he followed it up with "...and yes I am serious." So, I guess it just depends whether you believe Mo or not, haha. Obviously his health is going to factor in. But according to him, he wants to.
 
My bad. I really meant to say that it isn't likely he will pitch 5 more years. I'm sure he would love to play 5 more years...maybe 10 more. That's the way Mo is. Hell, if it was up to him, he'd get some time in the outfield, too.
 
Mariano is a freak of nature and I am really not too concerned. He gave up several homeruns in the first month or so of the season at YS like every other pitcher. The Yankee pitchers did figure out how to pitch to the ballpark because the second half the Yankee hitters out homered the opposistion at home by something along the margins of 2-1. Mariano has also put up better era's than he did 7-9 years ago. Here is another key stat. His SO/9 inning last year was the second highest of his career. 9.8 strikeouts for every 9 innings. Speed is pretty important but location is by far the most important and MO has some of the best pinpoint control in baseball.
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']weak sauce. another week goes by and another deal on the books......wonder what omar is waiting is for.[/QUOTE]


R.A. Dickey and some no named pitcher from Japan.
 
That whole situation gets more pathetic as each days passes. Omar is beyond a joke, now. And it's pretty apparent that Bay simply isn't interested in playing in New York or playing for the Mets, because there really isn't anyone else out there, and he still won't sign.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']R.A. Dickey and some no named pitcher from Japan.[/QUOTE]

two guys that will definitley change the face of this franchise :lol:

[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']That whole situation gets more pathetic as each days passes. Omar is beyond a joke, now. And it's pretty apparent that Bay simply isn't interested in playing in New York or playing for the Mets, because there really isn't anyone else out there, and he still won't sign.[/QUOTE]

Olney wrote a plan that i was ok with if the Met keep dicking around and do nothing. They should sign orlando hudson anyway, sign Mark DeRosa to a 2 year deal and save the money to resign and sign other 1 year FAs like Winn and washburn so they can make an attempt at next years class minus Omar fucking minaya.
 
Cant really blame Omar. It's his last year and you know he wants to go for it all. All the blame lands on the Coupons. Jeff and Steve are the ones calling the shots.
 
Apparently the Sox (and I guess everyone but the Mets) were scared off by Bay's two bad knees and bad shoulder. He got an option for the 5th year that gets triggered by a certain amount of plate appearances.

The Sox felt that Bay's range was terrible due to his knees, even in LF in Fenway. The bad shoulder is his throwing shoulder.
 
I wish Bay the best of luck. Not sure why there's a lot of hate for him in Red Sox Nation, he was a great fit in Fenway but the Mets definitely overpaid for him. I'd take the money and run too.

Good luck patrolling that spacious outfield though.
 
I wanted him back but somehow his knees and shoulder scared the shit out of the Sox. I was surprised at the lack of bidders but they must all have the same information.
 
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