CAGcast #325: One Is the Loneliest Number

[quote name='Wombat']You were complaining about no being able to buy used games. Buying used does not help Microsoft make a profit. If you are "hardcore" and only buy new, then you have probably already decided if you are going to buy one or not.

The 2 new game a year (that buy all the DLC), TV watching, Live buying consumer is the consumer they want.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure I said I was also concerned about it becoming a "useless brick" as well, which I also called my "greatest fear" about the DRM heavy Xbox One. I am highly likely to buy an Xbox One at launch, but if they're doing what I think they're doing then I won't because they're out of their minds. (Seriously, who in the hell comes up with a proprietary headphone jack?)

New consoles are loss leaders, so they have to have a high attach rate to even break even. With the Xbox 360 they lost anywhere between $100-150 per console sold at launch and the Xbox One is going to lose the same if not more. An attach rate of 2 isn't going to help it become profitable anytime soon if at all. Neither is watching cable tv. What's going to make it sink or swim is the amount of software it sells, so they need individuals who buy a hell of a lot of software. Doing everything they can to alienate those consumers is not going to help them.
 
BTW Wombat: You were talking about backend and frontend for XBLA. The terms are a bit vague but in general the frontend refers to the user facing part (ie the UI) and the backend is the "databases and servers" stuff. So in the case of XBLA I'd say the backend is running on Microsoft servers and the frontend is running on your Xbox. Both of these can be changed "without a guy coming to your house" and neither really solve the problem with backwards compatibility.

To get old XBLA games running on the new Xbox One they would have to be recompiled towards the new architecture. Theoretically Microsoft could do this on the backend, but it's probably easier to just have the developers port it to the new platform. For most this shouldn't be a huge undertaking but it will take some time. And that means that they will likely want to get at least some "upgrade money" like with the Wii U.

I see it more like a good reason to get those games on Steam in the future.
 
I didn't care for Cheapy's attitude when Shipwreck said he'd been playing Fast & Furious and Cheapy, acting like a know it all asked if it was excellent or outstanding. Not all movie based games are bad, in fact the majority of the best games this gen are movie based games.
 
[quote name='whoknows']I didn't care for Cheapy's attitude when Shipwreck said he'd been playing Fast & Furious and Cheapy, acting like a know it all asked if it was excellent or outstanding. Not all movie based games are bad, in fact the majority of the best games this gen are movie based games.[/QUOTE]

Uh... Huh?
 
Oh jesus, will Shipwreck shut the lay the fuck off of Wombat? Everyone has used the backend phrasing for shit that is pretty much something that can be applied in a patch or firmware update as opposed to something that is part of the architecture of the system. Everyone understands, but Shipwreck thinks he's obligated to shit on Wombat for no reason.
 
In regard to used games, I think part of the reason that consoles sell is the fact that games are affordable and can be had by second-hand means. If game retailers think that they can alienate some of their base and still maintain a huge profit, they are nuts.

I am into PC gaming now because its cheaper and offers a better variety to play, I will just spend my money there if I have to. I own about 250-300 console games from this gen too......screw em
 
Good show guys. It was funnier than usual. I will admit I was hoping you guys would shit on the conference, but I gotta say Cheapy was right in that a lot of people were coming in cynical. I've realized I hated both conferences for different reasons, but really, they won't be a 100% reflection of the consoles 3 to 4 years from now, which is when I'd considering buying one.

What I do find funny about the Xbox One if the rumors are true is:

1) It's going to be super easy to switch between the dash, live tv and games.
2) It's going to be a massive pain in ass to buy a game, take it home and play it. (assuming you have enter a code, make sure you have hd enough space, install it, maybe even update)

With regards to fantasy sports, everyone I know just checks their phones for scores. I'm really skeptical this will be a game changer.
 
I think most people are upset because there was so much more shown at the playstation conference months ago and that EA showed crappy unfinished product during the briefing, it's really not a good message. I agree that they said there would be no games and that there would be a focus on games at E3 and that is cool but I guess we shall see how things look when we get to E3.
 
I did find it a little odd that Wombat was using "front end" for what he then described as hardware, and "back end" for software, instead of just using the words hardware and software.

Also, I'll just leave this here:
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What I expected out of this show was a good discussion between the three of you about why Microsoft is making the decisions they are right now, why they are putting such a heavy emphasis on TV, and why gamers where so upset with the Reveal. I think you guys did a good job with discussing some of that, but how this got turn around into a thing of people expecting Cheapy to be angry and go on an irrational rant is beyond me.

Above all, I know that the three of you are highly professional, so I didn't expect any childish angry rants. What I would have liked to see, on Cheapy's part in particular, was more understand and compassion for the gamers who are going to buy one or two systems and can't afford to buy every game. Obviously, there are a lot of those folk on this site looking for the best deals. The whole, "Everything is turning up Cheapy" statement truly annoyed me, to the point of leaving this comment. That statement just didn't sit well with me, it felt like a really pretentious thing to say, but I know you didn't mean anything bad about it.

On a side note, when Wombat was bring up the software vs. hardware thing about why shouldn't some of the XBL games be emulated on the Xbox One. That was a very good topic for discussion, but instead it was dismissed. Clearly, he didn't know to use the right words but he did know what he was talking about. It just felt sort of weird that rather than have a real discussion about that, it turned into another segment of make fun of Wombat for not knowing technical terms.

Anyways, I love what you guys do and keep up the great work.
 
[quote name='Monsta Mack']It's the typical internet shitstorm before E3. Now if MS can't show the games at E3 that's a different story.

Internet is readily available across the united states and near 80% of the US has access to internet, yet people are complaining about going online?[/QUOTE]
Right, because there have never been fuck ups which has caused a platform's internet architecture to be shut down for weeks while they try to figure out a problem. If a similar thing which happened to the PS3 happens to the XO, that will literally cripple every aspect of the system as you won't even be able to play disc games while you wait.

[quote name='ZombieJeebus']All the games for next gen will be available digitally though. Availability will not be an issue. Pricing might be...[/QUOTE]
Up until very recently, my ISP (the only option for broadband internet in my town) had data caps of 50 GBs per month. In an era when even some current gen games are as high as 20 GBs, all games may be available for purchase digitally next gen, but such a method may not be practical for all consumers.

===

There is one (among many) very good reason why no bundled headset is a HORRIBLE idea, voice commands. They are pushing voice commands as an important feature of the XO. If no headset is included and old headsets don't work with it, that means most gamers will have microphone chatter outputting through their television speakers instead of their headphones. Isn't all it would take is for some troll to yell "xbox off" and then whoever in game has voice commands enabled will have their xbox shut off? Even if they disable the more destructive commands during multiplayer, there is still all manner of havoc which could be rout with it.

I don't understand why it would be preferable to drop the information about the used games plan at E3 instead of now. If the news is good (for consumers) do it now to snuff out all the rumors and bad press. If the news is bad, do it now so that at E3 people will be talking about how awesome the games being unveiled are, not the details of the used game fee plan which will overshadow them. If the news is bad, I imagine they will continue to be vague about it at E3.

Microsoft got away with charging for multiplayer services while Sony left it free on PS3. It could just be hubris due to that and their large lead in the US that they think they can get away with restrictions on used game that the PS4 may not have or it could they feel their deal for time exclusive DLC for Call of Duty and the like will trump it and keep the mass COD-machine and Madden-machine crowd on board.

Another reason why people don't complain too much about being unable to trade steam games is because you can get them for so cheap. When you can purchase the game for less than the net cost of purchasing and then reselling the game on a console, it is less of an issue.

I enjoy sports but I don't understand the fascination with fantasy X-ball. Is it a similar delusion to sports superstition (IE. viewer always wearing the same lucky jersey when they play) so that you can claim some piece of ownership of the win?

Wombat's explanation of front end and back end made sense to me. Other examples of front end would be the added Xbox hard drive, the N64 Expansion pack, the kinect, the second analog stick addon for the 3DS.
 
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Ok, so I'm really late listening to the show, but I'm really surprised CheapyD, Wombat and Shipwreck repeatedly expressed skepticism concerning the SPEED at which the One can switch between "games" and "TV/Other".

Cheapy implies the voice switching demo was rigged and Wombat agreed.

Shipwreck even asked, "Wouldn't this technology be out there for PC's to react this quickly?"

Well... why YES Shipwreck. This technology DOES exist for computers. It's call hypervisor technology and millions of companies, institutions, govts & home users are deploying hundreds of MILLIONs, if not billions, of virtual machines (VM's) daily with this tech.

The Xbox One is running at a minimum TWO separate VM's concurrently, but I wouldn't be shocked to learn it's running even more (i.e. a web/social VM, a security monitoring VM, a core OS housekeeping VM). The speed at which you're able to switch between gaming & Tv is simply the result of "flipping" between the DISPLAY of different VM's!!! Note I said "display" and not loading from disk, initializing, and executing which takes time. These VMs are loaded at BOOT so they're ALREADY RUNNING RESIDENT IN MEMORY! Essentially, Xbox One is just "Alt-TAB-ing" between machines.

Microsoft brands their flavor of hypervisor as Hyper-V. Many other forms & flavors exist like VMware, Parallels, Oracle's VirtualBox, etc...

Do you remember all the stories about the "father of Windows NT", David Cutler joining the Xbox team??? It was a huge WTF moment and had everyone wondering WHY WHY WHY such a heavy hitter, hard-core Windows Server genius would join a stupid home console team????

Well............. THIS IS WHY! They needed his Windows Server expertise to pull this off. Xbox One is running BARE METAL Hyper-V!!!
 
[quote name='epmoto200']Ok, so I'm really late listening to the show, but I'm really surprised CheapyD, Wombat and Shipwreck repeatedly expressed skepticism concerning the SPEED at which the One can switch between "games" and "TV/Other".

Cheapy implies the voice switching demo was rigged and Wombat agreed.

Shipwreck even asked, "Wouldn't this technology be out there for PC's to react this quickly?"

Well... why YES Shipwreck. This technology DOES exist for computers. It's call hypervisor technology and millions of companies, institutions, govts & home users are deploying hundreds of MILLIONs, if not billions, of virtual machines (VM's) daily with this tech.

The Xbox One is running at a minimum TWO separate VM's concurrently, but I wouldn't be shocked to learn it's running even more (i.e. a web/social VM, a security monitoring VM, a core OS housekeeping VM). The speed at which you're able to switch between gaming & Tv is simply the result of "flipping" between the DISPLAY of different VM's!!! Note I said "display" and not loading from disk, initializing, and executing which takes time. These VMs are loaded at BOOT so they're ALREADY RUNNING RESIDENT IN MEMORY! Essentially, Xbox One is just "Alt-TAB-ing" between machines.

Microsoft brands their flavor of hypervisor as Hyper-V. Many other forms & flavors exist like VMware, Parallels, Oracle's VirtualBox, etc...

Do you remember all the stories about the "father of Windows NT", David Cutler joining the Xbox team??? It was a huge WTF moment and had everyone wondering WHY WHY WHY such a heavy hitter, hard-core Windows Server genius would join a stupid home console team????

Well............. THIS IS WHY! They needed his Windows Server expertise to pull this off. Xbox One is running BARE METAL Hyper-V!!![/QUOTE]

Interesting. But, how does it make my TV change channels faster that it currently does?
 
[quote name='shipwreck']Interesting. But, how does it make my TV change channels faster that it currently does?[/QUOTE]

Indeed. My Vizio TV is horrible with channel switching. It takes several seconds to change channels. I don't think any third-party channel switcher is going to fix that.

And by the way, the Wii U can do all this channel stuff already ;). I actually used it the other day just for that when we couldn't find the remote.

And this is all besides the fact that when I'm gaming, I'm not watching TV and vice versa. So all the TV functionality in the world on the Xbox One means pretty much nothing to me because I won't have it turned on when I'm just watching TV. With the Wii U it is a little more useful because there are times when me or one of the kids is playing on the gamepad and someone else is watching TV. So using the TV-remote function on the Gamepad is actually convenient. Turning on the Xbox to control the TV is not. But the only TV connection functionality I would really want from any box is the ability to record TV shows. I haven't had that since the days of the VCR (and for a short time with a DVD-recorder I had which is now broken). Yeah, I don't do subscription services when I can avoid them so no DVR for me. If Xbox One provided that for me, I'd be all over it.
 
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Same here - I thought it was a limiting factor of my cable box (FIOS) and not my television but I don't know anything.
 
Hearing all these rumors and then reading the article in Game Informer about the XBLA exodus, makes me wonder if MS is screwing this up, and over-estimating how much consumers and developers will tolerate. MS has to pay for NFL licensing and those exclusives somehow. I wonder, with the cost of a live subscription, a third party headset, the console, and possible higher game prices, how much are gamers willing to spend.

As for paying to play used games. How much would people be willing to pay for used games?
I am guessing MS will try to offer all releases via download, and if they offer reduced prices for older games, and a paid trail period (rental), I think everyone would be ok with that. Especially if prices are comparable to current used games and rental rates.
 
Now that the Xbox 360 is most likely never get any more major updates, which one was your favorite and least favorite of the bunch? To my memory there was the current windows 8 looking one, the kinect friendly one, the giant blade window one that introduced avatars, and the OG.
 
I don't have cable. I will not be getting cable. If the Xbox One would give me channels like HBO and ESPN for an alacart fee, without cable, then it would be revolutionary. What they are offering is more of the same, but with another layer of middleman.

If I can plug my Xbox 360 into the HDMI in and use it as a passthrough with the Xbox One off, then that would be useful to me because I'm out of HDMI ports. I don't think it does that, though.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']Interesting. But, how does it make my TV change channels faster that it currently does?[/QUOTE]

Engineered! (I hope that becomes a term like "lawyered" on How I Met Your Mother.)

Although as an engineer I did think that the hyper visor thing was pretty much the only interesting thing from the Xbox One reveal. And I saw someone else mention that an interesting future prospect for this is that they could potentially run a Xbox OS on other platforms, like Surface Pro tablets.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']@ wombat
As far as system power what really matters is the GPU(graphics card).
The PS4 is about 50% more powerful than the XB1 based on the leak specs most of which have been confirmed.
PS4-about 2000 Gflops(rumored)-Ps3 about 400 Gflops PS2 about 6 Gflops
XB1-about 1200 Gflops(rumored)-360 about 350 Gflops xbox about 20 Gflops [/QUOTE]
Specs on paper don't necessarily translate into console success. Look at the PS2 vs XBox -- The XBox is supposed to be more powerful but can't compete in sales compared to the runaway success of the PS2. The PS3 is supposed to be better on paper than the 360, but early on the games look better on the 360. What it really comes down to is what the developers can do with the machine.

Originally Posted by Monsta Mack
Internet is readily available across the united states and near 80% of the US has access to internet, yet people are complaining about going online?
Click to expand...
[quote name='Jasper Kazai']I see the complaining about always on being more of a defense of the people who have no voice rather than it being the complainers complaining about their own situation. What I mean is that there truly are plenty of people who have never connected their consoles to the internet - you don't hear their voice in the argument, however, because they're not here. They just don't go online. So it's more of a whiteknighting thing for the people who won't join the argument. Don't know if this is true at all, but that's just my take.[/QUOTE]

I am one of those 20% without internet access at home. For me it is an affordability issue. That is why I am on CAG finding cheap gaming entertainment and ways to get credit/gift cards for buying games. I regularly access the internet at work or the library. Despite the trophy card in my sig, the only time my PS3 connects to the internet is when I take it to another person's house.

I definitely feel like I am in a minority on CAG when reading many posts about people not caring if it doesn't play used games or requires constant/periodic internet connection because they are privileged enough to afford new games or always on internet.

As far as purchasing a next gen console: I will not buy a device that needs to periodically phone home to work. For example, my wife has a Kindle, and the apps on that thing stop working after about a month. Which means taking it to a free wi-fi hotspot and running each app; needless to say she has stopped using the Kindle because of the inconvenience.

It is unfortunate that we consumers are heading into an era where some have to make sure devices are "offline capable."
 
[quote name='shipwreck']Interesting. But, how does it make my TV change channels faster that it currently does?[/QUOTE]

LOL! Ok, let's be clear. It WON'T! If your existing TV/Cable/Sat source is slow at channel changing, then the new Xbox will be slow at channel changing too.

I'm guessing MS did NOT have a ratty old 3rd-party Comcast stb connected with a wired IR-Blaster scotch-taped to the cable box's IR-sensor for channel flipping. :lol:

They likely had a setup similar to mine with multiple cable cards installed in a Windows Media Center PC. These are multi-channel tuners and channel flipping is nigh instantaneous in my case. This is esp so when flipping between already pre-tuned channels.

The only time I experience meaningful delays with my plasma is when switching between Inputs (Hdmi 1, Hdmi 2, Component 1, Component 2) or using the Tv's buit-in OTA tuner. But assuming you use the Xbox One in the manner in which MS envisions, which I doubt most ppl will/can, input switching is moot since you're expected to run everything through the Xbox's single HDMI... yeah right! :roll:

BTW, if you're interested, here's a Xbox Tech Panel discussion mentioning the use of VMs. It's not very indepth though. Lacking a bunch of detail I'd like to hear. I'm guessing they didn't want to frighten off the kiddos and the Madden crowd with too much tech jargon. Hahaha
http://majornelson.com/cast/2013/05/22/xbox-one-architecture-panel/

[quote name='io']But the only TV connection functionality I would really want from any box is the ability to record TV shows. I haven't had that since the days of the VCR (and for a short time with a DVD-recorder I had which is now broken). Yeah, I don't do subscription services when I can avoid them so no DVR for me. If Xbox One provided that for me, I'd be all over it.[/QUOTE]

I KNOW RIGHT??? After MS showed off all that TV integration and then left out DVR support, I was like WTF????? How can MS purport to be building an all-in-one, entertainment hub and leave out DVR support? Seriously MS??!!!! Is this 2002?

Here's the thing though. You KNOW for a fact, MS has already identified DVR functionality as a potential profit center and are devising plans to exploit it. Gold acct requirement is a given. Selling locked & proprietary 2TB usb hdd peripherals @ 5x the cost per Gb of current market price is another given. (all in the name of "protecting" the intellectual properity rights of studios & content makers I'm sure... yeah right. $$$)

So yes, I fully expect MS to unlock DVR functionality later. The ability to write an encrypted QAM or OTA ATSC video stream directly to the hdd is in all likelihood already on chip. It's already built into the silicon as part of the SOC. I mean... I don't know for a fact, but come on... you just know it is. It'd probably cost them more to design out this functionality. I'm guessing MS trying to strike deals with cable/sat providers to charge monthly DVR/Programming fees using the Xbox, but they're probably not having much luck since these companies NEVER wanna share the pie.... esp with the likes of Microsoft.


[quote name='Hast']Engineered! (I hope that becomes a term like "lawyered" on How I Met Your Mother.)

Although as an engineer I did think that the hyper visor thing was pretty much the only interesting thing from the Xbox One reveal. And I saw someone else mention that an interesting future prospect for this is that they could potentially run a Xbox OS on other platforms, like Surface Pro tablets.[/QUOTE]

That's interesting. While I agree it's theoretically possible given VM technology, it'll just never happen. Why? Well there are many, MANY reasons, but I'll just state the obvious: custom H/W.

As powerful as the new Xbox One likely is from a hardware perspective, compared to a modern high-end gaming rig I'd guess the Xbox measures up mediocre at best from a PURE COMPUTING standpoint.

But here's the thing... that proprietary silicon is HIGHLY optimized for the Xbox OS and the SDKs devs use to code games. They're likely coding to within only a few steps of writing directly to hardware... very little overhead. That tight integration between H/W & S/W is enough to close the gulf to within spittin' range between an Xbox and a quad-core Intel I7 rig running SLI-ed video cards.

So yes, while it would be theoretically possible to move a VM-ed instance of an Xbox to a tablet or desktop, it won't happen b/c you'd never EVER see this custom silicon licensed/ported to retail manufactured Samsung, HP, Dell, & Apple pc's & tablets. And without out this custom silicon with which to interface, an Xbox VM is just a useless piece of software. Hell, I doubt it'd even boot without ALL the essential h/w present.
 
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[quote name='epmoto200']
That's interesting. While I agree it's theoretically possible given VM technology, it'll just never happen. Why? Well there are many, MANY reasons, but I'll just state the obvious: custom H/W.
...
But here's the thing... that proprietary silicon is HIGHLY optimized for the Xbox OS and the SDKs devs use to code games. They're likely coding to within only a few steps of writing directly to hardware... very little overhead.
...
So yes, while it would be theoretically possible to move a VM-ed instance of an Xbox to a tablet or desktop, it won't happen b/c you'd never EVER see this custom silicon licensed/ported to retail manufactured Samsung, HP, Dell, & Apple pc's & tablets. And without out this custom silicon with which to interface, an Xbox VM is just a useless piece of software. Hell, I doubt it'd even boot without ALL the essential h/w present.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you that it may not happen, but I disagree with you why.

The reason I think it may not happen is because it may not make business sense to make it. At least not in the first few years of the Xbox One's life cycle.

However I really don't think that you are correct on how custom the machine is. From what we have seen it is true that it has some custom parts, but all in all it's just a bunch of AMD IP blocks put on a chip. At least they (AMD) will be able to make a compatible chip if they want to (at least technically, Microsoft may not want them to though).

Furthermore, since the XBox Game OS is now running on a virtual machine that Microsoft controls that also means that they can abstract that interface to a much higher degree than normal. While console developers access "closer to the metal" than on a normal PC they still go through drivers and interfaces specified by Microsoft. So this is definitely something they could duplicate in the future if they want.

It may not be trivial for them to do, but what I propose is that they can do this far enough into the future so replicating the same performance is quite trivial. The biggest problems with implementing console emulators is to replicate odd CPU and GPU architectures as well as system specific electronics. But both Xbox One and PS4 seem to be very much customized PCs in that regard so it will be easier than ever to do.
 
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