PlayStation 4 - General Discussion Thread

I'm not a big fan of the ps3 ui, but since I do nothing with my consoles but game it's not a big factor for me one way or the other.
 
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brandtron8000 said:
Don't worry Timbo, I'm sure the Halo TV show will win plenty of emmys.

Oh boy, ads plastered all over on a paid service is awful no matter how you spin it, and I'll say the same about ps4 if they do it.

Say what you want about update and patch speeds, but the majority of online play this gen was P2P for both systems, so paying for ads is even worse.
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omg one little ad in corner of screen omg that kills you it's not like it's a giant ad that takes up the full screen you have to watch. What will you do once most gmaes have ads in them it's a matter of time till bigger games get ads in them.

 
brandtron8000 said:
Don't worry Timbo, I'm sure the Halo TV show will win plenty of emmys.

Oh boy, ads plastered all over on a paid service is awful no matter how you spin it, and I'll say the same about ps4 if they do it.

Say what you want about update and patch speeds, but the majority of online play this gen was P2P for both systems, so paying for ads is even worse.
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you do know even if game is p2p yo uare still connected to servers right?

 
If I'm paying 50 bucks a year for a service I don't want to see a mcdonalds ad on my dash. Thats just me. As for the UI, I thought it looked pretty good. It was snappy, functional, and smooth. Im just hoping you can customize the wallpaper, and Yoshida looked so boss sitting in that chair haha. Great opening.

 
TimboSliceGB said:
omg one little ad in corner of screen omg that kills you it's not like it's a giant ad that takes up the full screen you have to watch. What will you do once most gmaes have ads in them it's a matter of time till bigger games get ads in them.
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That's pretty easy, I won't play those gmaes. Just like I already don't play sports ones, but that has nothing to do with ads.

TimboSliceGB said:
you do know even if game is p2p yo uare still connected to servers right?
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And uare aware that a matchmaking server, which htz already covered in the old Xbone thread is paid for by activision for COD on both consoles, and the lag created between hosts and players is still there even though you pay for XBL?.

Dat Xbone COD Ghosts dedicated servers announcement, right?

Deader2818 said:
I hate that with Hulu Plus. You pay for it but still have to watch ads.
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http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/partners/hulu-plus

Best part is that XBLG is still required... so paying for a service that shows you ads that let's you pay for another service that also shows you ads.

 
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TimboSliceGB said:
was this really needed BRAH it's my opinion you don't have to mock me for a opinion plus i use my ps3 more then gaming would be nice to have a more wide spread ui. I was happy once 360 moved away from their first dashboard with the tabs i love the 360 ui right now.
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TimboSliceGB said:
i was hoping sony would put some work into their interface that alot of people did not like.
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You might want to look up the definition of the word "opinion".

 
They have tried in game ads for lots of games, but I don't think we're going to see them all that much in the 8th Generation. The problem with them is that it's hard to track their success and it's even harder to get advertisers to go for it. We'll probably see them in sports games, but we probably won't see them all that much in action games or rpgs.

 
Taken from NeoGAF - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657221

AMD: PS4 performance advantage over XB1 bigger than many expect thanks to hUMA
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldu...t-1939716.html

translation:


Although both upcoming game consoles Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on AMD hardware, only PlayStation 4 incorporates hUMA [Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access] for supporting a shared memory space. This was explained by AMD's Senior Product Marketing Manager Marc Diana to c't [big German IT magazine] at gamescom. This should put the 3D-performance of PlayStation 4 much farther ahead of Xbox One than many have expected so far. AMD sees hUMA as a key element for drastic performance improvements in combined processors. AMD's upcoming Kaveri desktop processors support hUMA as well.

Behind the scenes, c't could hear from developers that the 3D-performance of PlayStation 4 is very far ahead of Xbox One.

Back in April, AMD manager Phil Rogers explained to c't that hUMA improves 3D-performance in particular. "Game developers have been eager to use very large textures for years. Until now they had to resort to tricks in order to package parts of larger textures into smaller textures. That is because today a texture has to be located in a special place of physical memory before the GPU can process it. With hUMA, applications can work with textures much more efficiently". AMD will give more details on hUMA at its upcoming developer conference in November.
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brandtron8000 said:
Ha! Beaten.
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By 1 minute. :p The NeoGaf post seems to be more detailed though. Sony appears to be hiding a good amount of technical secrets behind it's hardware. Even though the parts are mostly off the shelf, it seems to be highly customized.

Edit:

Need for Speed Rivals dev is hinting that the game will look better on one next gen console than the other.

"And that makes me really happy. But in reality, I think we’re going to have both those consoles pretty much on parity – maybe one sticking up a little bit. And I think that one will look as good as the PC."

 
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htz said:
PlayStation 4 incorporates hUMA [Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access] from AMD, which apparently gives Sony’s hardware a significant advantage over Xbox One.
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at this point who really cares about any of this it's all about the games is it not? But with that said ps3 was always more powerful then 360 but alot of 3rd party games looked better on 360 then ps3 and played much smoother. Yes ps4 1st party games will look better then x1 like last gen. In the end both these systems will be neck and neck for years to come which can only help us the gamers.

 
htz said:
By 1 minute. :p The NeoGaf post seems to be more detailed though. Sony appears to be hiding a good amount of technical secrets behind it's hardware. Even though the parts are mostly off the shelf, it seems to be highly customized.

Edit:

Need for Speed Rivals dev is hinting that the game will look better on one next gen console than the other.

"And that makes me really happy. But in reality, I think we’re going to have both those consoles pretty much on parity – maybe one sticking up a little bit. And I think that one will look as good as the PC."
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no way most games on ps4 look as good as a high end pc. ps4 and xbox one will pretty much play games at high settings. If you look at he tech in both these systems they are at least a year old already my pc is more powerful then ps4/xbox one.

 
TimboSliceGB said:
no way most games on ps4 look as good as a high end pc. ps4 and xbox one will pretty much play games at high settings. If you look at he tech in both these systems they are at least a year old already my pc is more powerful then ps4/xbox one.
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A developer saying one of the two will look as good as the PC release really doesn't mean much. It's probably just PR talk, or the consoles were the lead platform and was then lazily ported to the PC (like GTAIV was).

And a lot of system specific advantages probably won't matter for multi-platform games. Publishers/developers will probably get a lot of flak if one version is vastly superior to the other and it's probably easier to to just make both games look pretty same-ish. But given how good Sony's first party games look on the PS3, the PS4's first party games are probably going to blow the One out of the water. Plus, MS's cloud computing could potentially even the field to an extent.

 
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yeah i agree

Vinny said:
A developer saying one of the two will look as good as the PC release really doesn't mean much. It's probably just PR talk, or the consoles were the lead platform and was then lazily ported to the PC (like GTAIV was).

And a lot of system specific advantages probably won't matter for multi-platform games. Publishers/developers will probably get a lot of flak if one version is vastly superior to the other and it's probably easier to to just make both games look pretty same-ish. But given how good Sony's first party games look on the PS3, the PS4's first party games are probably going to blow the One out of the water. Plus, MS's cloud computing could potentially even the field to an extent.
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yep i agree

 
TimboSliceGB said:
at this point who really cares about any of this it's all about the games is it not? But with that said ps3 was always more powerful then 360 but alot of 3rd party games looked better on 360 then ps3 and played much smoother. Yes ps4 1st party games will look better then x1 like last gen. In the end both these systems will be neck and neck for years to come which can only help us the gamers.
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I just like reading about the technical side of the consoles, has nothing to do with games. I also still don't get why you are comparing games development on the PS3 vs Xbox 360 like if they will be the same as the PS4 vs Xbox One. It is already established the hardware on the PS4 is more powerful by tech enthusiasts and a Microsoft employee on reddit. Even AMD is coming out now saying the PS4 has features that the Xbox One doesn't.

Developers will take advantage of the respective hardware as much as possible, if it doesn't take them extra time to optimize and money wasted. They don't have an incentive to make one platform look better than the other but they will make their game the best one to compete with other games in the same genre. It makes no sense to downgrade your game to reach platform parity when you can take full advantage of the hardware to ensure it shines more compared to other games. The Need for Speed Rivals dev is suggesting the same thing. "Nilsson’s comments suggest that third-party developers may be looking to take advantage of the additional power of PS4, rather than deliver identical versions across both platforms."

By how much of a difference we won't know that right now. But you can't deny that developers won't take advantage of the PS4 hardware when it isn't as time consuming and costly to optimize as the PS3.

Developers this generation have no issues in making Xbox 360 games look better than the PS3. They will have no issues making the PS4 games look better than Xbox One if the hardware is as easy to develop for.

 
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Infamous Second Son is dropping in Febuary!!!! fuckYeahhhhh!!! A lot sooner then I expected. :bouncy:  Also, I fully expect multiplats to look better on the ps4 come next gen. If not then they're just aiming for parity for the Xbox one LOL :razz:

 
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Sinfulfate said:
Has Sony said if all PSN games will have demo's on PS4 like Xbox live? This is really annoying on PS3 so I hope they change this.
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If I had to guess, I would say no. Sony allows developers a greater degree of freedom. As such they don't make demos a requirement for submission to PSN.

Microsoft kept much tighter control over development on XBLA, and because of that they were able to make demos a requirement for any and all submissions. This has had certain consequences for that platform. It is highly unlikely at this point that Sony would follow suite.

 
Funny how when things come up to make it seem like Xbox One is close to PS4 spec wise people are like "haha see! PS4 isnt more powerful than the x one!"

but when things come out that prove that the PS4 is indeed more powerful it turns to "oh well specs don't even matter, its about games"

 
Having 1 million consoles preordered may shift the views Microsoft's heavy hitter developers may have about the future of the brand. Hoping the equality (like stupid things such as maps packs coming out on the x1 a month before hitting PSN) will either shift to null or towards Sony.
 
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Vinny said:
A developer saying one of the two will look as good as the PC release really doesn't mean much. It's probably just PR talk, or the consoles were the lead platform and was then lazily ported to the PC (like GTAIV was).

And a lot of system specific advantages probably won't matter for multi-platform games. Publishers/developers will probably get a lot of flak if one version is vastly superior to the other and it's probably easier to to just make both games look pretty same-ish. But given how good Sony's first party games look on the PS3, the PS4's first party games are probably going to blow the One out of the water. Plus, MS's cloud computing could potentially even the field to an extent.
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Publishers/developers did not get flak for multiplatform games on SNES vs Gen, PS1 vs Saturn, Xbox vs PS2 being distinctly superior. Unless MS institutes a policy somehow that X1 games must have parity with PS4 games, we can easily see pubs/devs take advantage of the superior PS4 hardware. I don't see MS able to do that. Maybe they could on 360 with XBLA vs PSN games but not AAA. Since both consoles have similar PC-based architecture, it will be very easy for devs to up the resolution, fps, and graphical effects on one console.

 
J7. said:
Publishers/developers did not get flak for multiplatform games on SNES vs Gen, PS1 vs Saturn, Xbox vs PS2 being distinctly superior. Unless MS institutes a policy somehow that X1 games must have parity with PS4 games, we can easily see pubs/devs take advantage of the superior PS4 hardware. I don't see MS able to do that. Maybe they could on 360 with XBLA vs PSN games but not AAA. Since both consoles have similar PC-based architecture, it will be very easy for devs to up the resolution, fps, and graphical effects on one console.
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It wasn't as easy to give companies bad PR back then. Even in the PS2/GC/XB era, social networking wasn't huge (MySpace was useless and Facebook was in its infamy). We now have Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and other means where gamers and fanboys and everyone in between can bitch about things (whether or not they're justified). Bayonetta, Orange Box, Lost Planet, Zone of the Enders HD Collection etc. are some more recent examples where was push back because one console version was notably better than the other. Hell, companies have get shit for inferior PC releases (RE4, MW2).

Obviously, it wasn't anything to the extent where anything was done most of the time but nonetheless, companies probably don't wanna hear our shit since some of them do try to fix the situation (Bayonetta's HD install, ZoE was patched).

 
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Vinny said:
It wasn't as easy to give companies bad PR back then. Even in the PS2/GC/XB era, social networking wasn't huge (MySpace was useless and Facebook was in its infamy). We now have Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and other means where gamers and fanboys and everyone in between can bitch about things (whether or not they're justified). Bayonetta, Orange Box, Lost Planet, Zone of the Enders HD Collection etc. are some more recent examples where was push back because one console version was notably better than the other. Hell, companies have get shit for inferior PC releases (RE4, MW2).

Obviously, it wasn't anything to the extent where anything was done most of the time but nonetheless, companies probably don't wanna hear our shit since some of them do try to fix the situation (Bayonetta's HD install, ZoE was patched).
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Companies may hear less from X1 owners complaining their games aren't as good as much as they might hear from PS4 owners claiming they didn't take advantage of the superior hardware. All it will take is for one developer to demonstrate a superior port on PS4 for people to realize other developers should be able to achieve that as well. It sounds like NFS may be doing that at launch.

Those examples you gave are more so an instance of the game having some very bad performance on one console vs the other, different from one port just being better due to better hardware.

 
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J7. said:
Companies may hear less from X1 owners complaining their games aren't as good as much as they might hear from PS4 owners claiming they didn't take advantage of the superior hardware. All it will take is for one developer to demonstrate a superior port on PS4 for people to realize other developers should be able to achieve that as well. It sounds like NFS may be doing that at launch.

Those examples you gave are more so an instance of the game having some very bad performance on one console vs the other, different from one port just being better due to better hardware.
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I honestly think people do a significant amount of bitching if one version looks notably better than the other. We can be rational and say one console release looks better than the other because one system is more powerful, but most people aren't all that rational. Hell, they'll probably expect the X1 to be more powerful since it costs more.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see. Hard to believe there's less than 2 months to go.

 
Deader2818 said:
Funny how when things come up to make it seem like Xbox One is close to PS4 spec wise people are like "haha see! PS4 isnt more powerful than the x one!"

but when things come out that prove that the PS4 is indeed more powerful it turns to "oh well specs don't even matter, its about games"
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I was just thinking that. If that news was about Xbox One they would have been going crazy and saying how much better the Xbox One is than PS4.

 
Did anybody think even for a minute that there would be PS3 game support? I mean, just speaking in terms of the hardware, it would be incredibly difficult to emulate the PS3 CELL processor on an x86 processor.

 
Vinny said:
I honestly think people do a significant amount of bitching if one version looks notably better than the other. We can be rational and say one console release looks better than the other because one system is more powerful, but most people aren't all that rational. Hell, they'll probably expect the X1 to be more powerful since it costs more.
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Perception can be a fickle thing. And historical precedence is not in favor of the more technically capable system. But then, historical precedence is also not in favor of the most expensive system. In all honesty, the past can only give us slight clues as to what's going to happen this holiday season. We've never truly seen a situation quite like this one. We can make an educated guess, but there is no hard-and-fast rule for us to fall back on. A launch like this one has never happened before.

The previous cycle saw Microsoft benefit hugely from launching early and with less powerful hardware that hadn't been engineered nearly as well. (high failure rates) While they didn't dominate the industry quite like they would have wanted to, they were able to drastically improve their install base and brand strength. It was a net gain for them, and quite impressive for a sophomore effort.

This time around they will have to contend with leaner, hungrier competition with something to prove. They won't have the advantage of a complacent competitor resting on its laurels.

 
Richard Kain said:
If I had to guess, I would say no. Sony allows developers a greater degree of freedom. As such they don't make demos a requirement for submission to PSN.

Microsoft kept much tighter control over development on XBLA, and because of that they were able to make demos a requirement for any and all submissions. This has had certain consequences for that platform. It is highly unlikely at this point that Sony would follow suite.
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I feel like Sony is finally starting to realized how stupid it was to give developers so much freedom on their platform because it led to stuff like Capcom not adding mic support to some PS3 multiplatforms, no trophies in a lot of games even after it was announced(before sony made it mandatory), no remote play support with any third party games, MGS online requiring a entirely different log in to play, most games still not supporting custom soundtracks, etc. Sony now seems to understand this which is why they have started making some requirements like trophies in all games and now remote play with PS4 so I hope they start adding more.

 
Sinfulfate said:
I feel like Sony is finally starting to realized how stupid it was to give developers so much freedom on their platform because it led to stuff like Capcom not adding mic support to some PS3 multiplatforms, no trophies in a lot of games even after it was announced(before sony made it mandatory), no remote play support with any third party games, MGS online requiring a entirely different log in to play, most games still not supporting custom soundtracks, etc. Sony now seems to understand this which is why they have started making some requirements like trophies in all games and now remote play with PS4 so I hope they start adding more.
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No, if anything Sony is going to be giving their developers even more leeway.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/198739/For_Sony_when_indies_are_happy_all_devs_are_happy.php

While this has had consequences as far as platform standards are concerned, it has also had sweeping benefits that many developers have found very desirable. Thanks to the control that Sony has been willing to relinquish, developers get to control their own launch date, prices, and sales on PSN. The approvals process has been much less restrictive, and communication between Sony and individual developers has been steadily improving.

Microsoft's approach is good for maintaining a standardized approach, but is very bad for smaller developers. Research into the effect of demos has clearly shown that demos actually have a negative influence on a game's overall sales. Short, non-interactive videos are proven to be better advertising for a game. Demos waste developer resources, and actively lower overall sales. Having them as a standard for a platform is actually very bad for developers.

 
Richard Kain said:
No, if anything Sony is going to be giving their developers even more leeway.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/198739/For_Sony_when_indies_are_happy_all_devs_are_happy.php

While this has had consequences as far as platform standards are concerned, it has also had sweeping benefits that many developers have found very desirable. Thanks to the control that Sony has been willing to relinquish, developers get to control their own launch date, prices, and sales on PSN. The approvals process has been much less restrictive, and communication between Sony and individual developers has been steadily improving.

Microsoft's approach is good for maintaining a standardized approach, but is very bad for smaller developers. Research into the effect of demos has clearly shown that demos actually have a negative influence on a game's overall sales. Short, non-interactive videos are proven to be better advertising for a game. Demos waste developer resources, and actively lower overall sales. Having them as a standard for a platform is actually very bad for developers.
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That article is talking about indie games and publishing which isn't really what I'm talking about. Making sure every PSN title has a demo really has nothing to do with who decides what the price of a game is or when it launches.

I don't believe having demos for games is bad for developers. If this was the case then there would be no demos for any games where its not required. I don't know where you are getting your research but I don't believe it. Being able to play a game before buying it is always the best advertisement for a game, especially indie games. This is why free to play is so popular. Also demo's aren't as costly as you are making them out to be. Maybe you are thinking of demos for AAA games but like I said I'm talking about XBLA games since they all have demos. The demo versions of XBLA games are just the full games with a couple extra lines of code locking out some content.

 
Sinfulfate said:
I don't believe having demos for games is bad for developers. If this was the case then there would be no demos for any games where its not required. I don't know where you are getting your research but I don't believe it. Being able to play a game before buying it is always the best advertisement for a game, especially indie games.
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I would point you to this very interesting video...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/demo-daze

One of my favorite web videos related to video game development. I've always been able to depend on the Extra Credits team for some valuable insights.

I'm a hobbyist developer myself. I've successfully completed a flash game before for a contest. And I can say with certainty that preparing a different version of your game for release is far more than just two or three lines of code.

Free-to-play games are designed specifically around the free-to-play payment model. Taking the payment scheme into mind is a crucial part of development. You have to design your game from the ground up around the method you want to use in charging for it.

In the majority of cases, demos do not actually encourage sales. A lot of people either never play the demo, or were already going to buy the game before trying the demo. Demos represent a significant commitment on the part of the developer with almost no return on investment. The time-cost of releasing a demo has to be taken into account.

 
I was under the impression that every game would have a "Timed Trial" like feature where you can play the game from start on a timed trial before it asks you to buy it. With demos being optional if they want to showcase later elements of a game.

Has that changed? Or just for PS+? PS+ already gets tons of 60min Time Trials of full retail games on the PS3. With multiplayer games on the PS4 that aren't free to play needing PS+, it may or may not be behind the paywall.

 
Richard Kain said:
I would point you to this very interesting video...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/demo-daze

One of my favorite web videos related to video game development. I've always been able to depend on the Extra Credits team for some valuable insights.

I'm a hobbyist developer myself. I've successfully completed a flash game before for a contest. And I can say with certainty that preparing a different version of your game for release is far more than just two or three lines of code.

Free-to-play games are designed specifically around the free-to-play payment model. Taking the payment scheme into mind is a crucial part of development. You have to design your game from the ground up around the method you want to use in charging for it.

In the majority of cases, demos do not actually encourage sales. A lot of people either never play the demo, or were already going to buy the game before trying the demo. Demos represent a significant commitment on the part of the developer with almost no return on investment. The time-cost of releasing a demo has to be taken into account.
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I watched the video but it only talks about demos for full priced titles not XBLA/PSN games. The demos for XBLA games don't suffer the same problems because they aren't separate builds of games so there is no extra dev cost to make them and they release the same day the game releases.

My whole point was that its sucks that games like Ducktales Remastered has a demo on XBLA but not PS3 or Steam because neither Sony nor Valve require it. If you don't make something mandatory then devs wont do it.

 
Among the company's PowerUp Rewards program members, Sony's system appears to be drawing the lion's share of interest. GameStop currently has 1.5 million members on the PlayStation 4 first-to-know list, with 700,000 on the Xbox One list.

- GameStop president Tony Bartel
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Information provided from today's GameStop 2nd quarter financial report.

 
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Sinfulfate said:
My whole point was that its sucks that games like Ducktales Remastered has a demo on XBLA but not PS3 or Steam because neither Sony nor Valve require it. If you don't make something mandatory then devs wont do it.
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It can suck for general consumers who want to give the game a spin. But I was just pointing out that for the developers, NOT providing a demo is actually a positive option, that they often want to have available. I linked to that video to demonstrate that from a developer standpoint, refusing to provide a demo is actually to their benefit.

On XBLA, developer's don't have that option. They are required by Microsoft to provide a demo of one sort or another. And the automatic timed demo you keep referencing is not the option that any intelligent developer goes with. Any developer worth their salt would try to craft a much better managed demo, in order to better showcase their game.

From a consumer standpoint, it is easy to see why Microsoft's approach to a tightly managed system would be better. From a developer's standpoint, what Sony is offering is far superior.

It's easy to just state that "there should always be demos." But when you peek behind the curtain you realize why some developers might actively avoid releasing demos to their titles. On XBLA, there was no choice. On PSN, there was. PSN might not be quite as advantageous to the general consumer, but its much better for developers.

 
Richard Kain said:
It can suck for general consumers who want to give the game a spin. But I was just pointing out that for the developers, NOT providing a demo is actually a positive option, that they often want to have available. I linked to that video to demonstrate that from a developer standpoint, refusing to provide a demo is actually to their benefit.

On XBLA, developer's don't have that option. They are required by Microsoft to provide a demo of one sort or another. And the automatic timed demo you keep referencing is not the option that any intelligent developer goes with. Any developer worth their salt would try to craft a much better managed demo, in order to better showcase their game.

From a consumer standpoint, it is easy to see why Microsoft's approach to a tightly managed system would be better. From a developer's standpoint, what Sony is offering is far superior.

It's easy to just state that "there should always be demos." But when you peek behind the curtain you realize why some developers might actively avoid releasing demos to their titles. On XBLA, there was no choice. On PSN, there was. PSN might not be quite as advantageous to the general consumer, but its much better for developers.
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I completely agree with everything you just said except for that last bit. Sometimes demos can hurt your opinion of a game, giving you false ideas of how things work and how a game may turn out to be. Sometimes bad games demo good, while great games demo very badly... I was so disappointed in the Ni No Kuni demo that I very nearly dropped my pre-order. I kept it just in case it was a matter of having a bad demo, and I really wanted the bonus for pre-ordering. Low and behold I poured nearly 100 hours into that game and loved every second of it.

Point being, (as you said) demos aren't always advantageous, even for the consumer.

 
Kazaganthi said:
I was under the impression that every game would have a "Timed Trial" like feature where you can play the game from start on a timed trial before it asks you to buy it. With demos being optional if they want to showcase later elements of a game.

Has that changed? Or just for PS+? PS+ already gets tons of 60min Time Trials of full retail games on the PS3. With multiplayer games on the PS4 that aren't free to play needing PS+, it may or may not be behind the paywall.
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I remember them saying the thing about being able to play something while downloading but I don't remember them saying every game would have a free trial.

Richard Kain said:
On XBLA, developer's don't have that option. They are required by Microsoft to provide a demo of one sort or another. And the automatic timed demo you keep referencing is not the option that any intelligent developer goes with. Any developer worth their salt would try to craft a much better managed demo, in order to better showcase their game.
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Huh? Every XBLA game demo is the same. They let you play from the beginning of the game for a set period of time or for a couple levels(depending on what type of game it is) then they tell you have to pay to unlock the full game. I feel like you are still confusing xbla game demos with retail game demos. They are two completely different things.

 
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