The 2008 MLB Season Thread (Update: Phillies Won)

[ryanbph]

[quote name='jlarlee']Mike Lowell had a big year last year because he stopped being stubborn and started spraying the ball around the field more. Granted the monster gave him some cheap homers. But look at his splits http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=3972&type=batting&year=2007
granted the Fenway numbers are better(and who doesn't hit better there?) his away numbers are not all that bad[/quote]


it was a 100 point split and double the homers at home lst year...my theory doesn't hold up that way in 06...as he hit .050 better on the road, and 3 more homers on the road...but then again he didn't have a monster year in 06 like he did in 07...

 

[TheRock88]

Lol, Jeff Brantley got owned in under a minute

http://www.vidilife.com/index.cfm?f=media.play&vchrMediaProgramIDCryp=872041A7-D476-4E30-85A0-7

 

[ph33r m3]

They Said It Couldn't Be Done!

The Giants Win! The Giants Win! Free At Last!

 

[dracula]

[quote name='integralsmatic']i thought the only reason why the marlins had a high payroll that year is because 1 year baseball owner Wayne Huizenga wanted some sort of championship on his mantle.HE did it,[/quote]

that isnt really all that different from the arizona diamond backs, they went out and bought a championship in 2001.

sold them to the scum you know now as Jeffery "Donald Sterling is my idol" Loria..you have what you see. Although I think they will be good in 2-3 years...its not going to be enough to keep the fans in the seats.

there arent any fans in the seats now. The bullpen is a trainwreck, the rotation isnt bad-they probably wont bring another miguel cabrera again. I guess its possible, but cabrera is hall of fame caliber. He is way to young to say something like that for sure, but there are only a handful of active players i would say that about.

 

[CocheseUGA]

Couple of points I wanted to address:

There is a stadium in Vegas, it's AAA. Could easily be expanded. But I think it's a horrible idea.

MLB may or may not do well in Charlotte, but it would destroy the minor league teams.

Kinston, Durham, near Rocky Mount, Myrtle Beach...all have minor league teams within a couple hundred mile radius. You'll never see a MLB team in the Carolinas, for that reason and it would severely cut into the Braves and Nats territories.

Oh yea...Diaz and Escobar hit late-inning HRs last night.

 

[ryanbph]

[quote name='dracula']


-they probably wont bring another miguel cabrera again. I guess its possible, but cabrera is hall of fame caliber. He is way to young to say something like that for sure, but there are only a handful of active players i would say that about.[/quote]


while he is very young as well, hanley ramirez is putting up simliar numbers to caberra at the same point in his carreer....hanley avg the first 2 seasons as caberra first full 2 seasons are very similiar, I think hanley had a couple points higher. Power wise, hanley hit 17 and 29....caberra hit 33 both seasons, which isn't bad considering hanley doesn't really look like a power hitter compared to caberra.....Miguel does have a much better obp later on in his short carrer, but early on it was still better the ramirez. Hanley does have a tool that caberra doesn't have, and that is speed.


The marlins have a lot of young players, that wouldn't be playing at the MLB level with other teams..They have a very young staff and bullpen. No they aren't great, but they are developing at the mlb level...the tigers went thru the same rebuilding process just a couple of years ago. All the young pitchers got killed a season or 2 before they went to the world series. The atlanta braves let tom glavine go out and get his ass handed to him back in the late 80's before they become the NL east champ team they were a few years later. No the marlins they way they currently are run, will never make a string of runs, but that doesn't mean they can't compete with a bunch of young players.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='ryanbph']

and it isn't a valid point that the redsox are getting a return on investment of the posting fee but opening up channels in Japan...[/quote]

I'm not sure who you are talking to here, but if anything the red sox are NOT getting a return on the 103 million dollars they spent on matsuzaka. same for the giants and zito. unless if they pitch better, those are 2 of the worst contracts in baseball.

since the posting fee, they setup a training facility in japan, repaired any bad blood about stealing kevin millar from a japanese league team,

nobody cares about or remembers kevin millar. he was never that good to get excited over.

and have received revenue from ads/tv/and souveniors from japan that wasn't there before.

how much are they getting? Unless they are getting 103 million dollars, or something close to it, then still doesnt justify spending that much money on an average mlb pitcher- and that may be a stretch.

As bad as the marlins ownership is in florida, I don't think they would have a fanbase that could support them if they got a newer stadium,

What are you basing this off of? because there is minor league baseball in florida? lots of states with minor league teams also have successful mlb teams that draw

and was a middle of the road spending club. I also believe they are a year or 2 away from competing again...They have a lot of young potential stars, that on a big market team would be in AAA or AA that would still be developed

joba chamberlain and phil hughes were called up at 21 years old

As for your previous comment about cabrera being a once every 20 year type of player, maybe he will be. Many scouts compare him to manny ramirez, and he has came up about as a regular about 13 years ago....arod is not only great offensively, he was a solid ss....pujols has put up solid numbers for 7 years..

none of those players were a key piece to winning a world series at age 20- and as you keep saying the 2003 marlins are the blueprint for a small market team, (even though the marlins had a losing record that year,) they won a world series.

Hell, I am not ever sure if another 20 year old player has done that within the past 50 years. I guess you could say bret saberhagen won 2 Ws games in 1985 at age 21. But he was still a year and a half older than cabrera.

To be that good at such a young age, i guess arod or maybe griffey jr were amazing phenoms, but cabrera had just turned 20 years old and put the marlins over the top to win the WS.

And you keep saying how the 2003 marlins are the ideal blueprint for small market teams, they lost more than they won, their payroll wasnt that small.

The 2007 rockies are more of a better example of a small market team winning a pennant. They had the 25th largest PR last year.

Dude, I dont even know what your points are, it sounds like you dont really follow baseball, and you say you live in boston but dont watch them on TV or listen on the radio or go to games, how do you follow them? You dont seem to know much about the red sox.



[quote name='ryanbph']

The marlins have a lot of young players, that wouldn't be playing at the MLB level with other teams..They have a very young staff and bullpen. No they aren't great, but they are developing at the mlb level...the tigers went thru the same rebuilding process just a couple of years ago. All the young pitchers got killed a season or 2 before they went to the world series.[/QUOTE]

I assume you are talking about mike maroth and jeremy bonderman and nate robertson?

maroth wasnt on the postseason roster. bonderman and robertson were always garbage, both have a career ERA over 4.60.

Justin verlander was a rookie in 2006 and never got killed at the MLB lever. And kenny rogers was 40 years old.

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='dracula']

Dude, I dont even know what your points are, it sounds like you dont really follow baseball, and you say you live in boston but dont watch them on TV or listen on the radio or go to games, how do you follow them? You dont seem to know much about the red sox.[/QUOTE]

You keep saying that, but I'm starting to think that i'ts yourself who doesn't really follow baseball.

Miguel Cabrera didn't win the 2003 WS for the Marlins, Josh Beckett did. He had a great NLCS, but what exactly did he do in the WS? Hit a HR off of Clemens? Drive in a couple of runs? He hit .167.

I'm still trying to understand what point you're trying to make with the Matsuzaka contract. $50M to the Red Sox or the Yankees is a write-off, something not even covered under the luxury tax agreement. It's also hard to judge him based on one year's worth of starts in the MLB.

The Red Sox don't receive any revenue from promotional deals or sales outside their home market. All those Red Sox jerseys they sell in Japan go straight to MLB. BUT, and it's an important BUT, that helps to unseat the worldwide marketing domination of the Yankees. When those Japanese tourists come to America, they're going to want to go to Fenway, and not Yankee Stadium.

Same principle applies to the Premier League. If I ask you to name a Premiership club, you're going to say Manchester United. Part of winning the fanbase 'war' is not only winning championships, but going after players in markets you covet. See the huge amount of Japanese advertising at Safeco? Part of that comes from Nintendo being majority owners, but some of it does come from Ichiro. There wouldn't be any Japanese on the backstop if the Japanese weren't watching. You go and create those deals to get revenue in your home market, I do not know what deals Boston has made after the DIce-K signing.

He's 6/$52, a price that's extremely reasonable for a 26 year old pitcher. That's his contract. Period.

Nobody remembers Kevin Millar? Who doesn't remember Kevin Millar? That's a really stupid statement to make.

Cabrera is a nice talent, but if he doesn't get his weight under control he's going to find his numbers going down. I have to really doubt his HOF potential at this stage of his career.

What I find really pathetic is that you're forgetting the youngest player ever to hit a WS home run.

 

[dafoomie]

[quote name='dracula']I'm not sure who you are talking to here, but if anything the red sox are NOT getting a return on the 103 million dollars they spent on matsuzaka. same for the giants and zito. unless if they pitch better, those are 2 of the worst contracts in baseball.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you can judge Matsuzaka based on his rookie year, the Sox expected there would be an adjustment period for a year or two. Josh Beckett took an entire season to adjust from the NL. Plus, a couple days after a 2 hit/9 strikeout start is probably the wrong time to say he's a bust.

He did open some opportunities in Japan, some revenue streams, though that has been overstated a little. The larger thing he's done is open the Sox to Japanese players the way Pedro did for Dominicans. Japan is still a largely untapped market for major league talent, and the Sox are ahead of the pack as far as scouting and building relationships with the local teams.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='CocheseUGA']You keep saying that, but I'm starting to think that i'ts yourself who doesn't really follow baseball.

Miguel Cabrera didn't win the 2003 WS for the Marlins, Josh Beckett did. He had a great NLCS[/quote]

exactly, he certainly helped get them there.

but what exactly did he do in the WS?

not much, but he was instrumental down the stretch, and in the playoffs. yes i watched the 2003 postseason and remember thinking it was a dumb idea putting beckett out there in game 6 on 3 days rest. The pitching was fantastic. To say cabrera had no hand in getting the marlins there is nutty. he didnt get really good until the following year at age 21, but he did plenty downt he stretct.

I'm still trying to understand what point you're trying to make with the Matsuzaka contract. $50M to the Red Sox or the Yankees is a write-off, something not even covered under the luxury tax agreement.

I am saying he isnt worth the money. then someone says. "the red sox arent even paying that much money, the extra $50 million doesnt count".

It's also hard to judge him based on one year's worth of starts in the MLB.

People are already judging barry zito off one lousy year. When you are paying 103 million dollars, you cant afford to have "one bad year". You make it sound like they dont have to pay him as much because had a bad year, and if he has some bad years, it is still worth the $103 million they spent as long as he has some good years..

The Red Sox don't receive any revenue from promotional deals or sales outside their home market. All those Red Sox jerseys they sell in Japan go straight to MLB. BUT, and it's an important BUT, that helps to unseat the worldwide marketing domination of the Yankees. When those Japanese tourists come to America, they're going to want to go to Fenway, and not Yankee Stadium.

yankee stadium and fenway sell out regardless of the japanese tourists. The japanese tourists wont much effect if any on attendence at new york or boston.

Same principle applies to the Premier League. If I ask you to name a Premiership club, you're going to say Manchester United. Part of winning the fanbase 'war' is not only winning championships, but going after players in markets you covet.

I have no idea, I dont follow soccer. the only comparison that I can draw is that you are saying that the red sox fans were pissed when the yankees signed damon. I can understand that

See the huge amount of Japanese advertising at Safeco? Part of that comes from Nintendo being majority owners, but some of it does come from Ichiro. There wouldn't be any Japanese on the backstop if the Japanese weren't watching.

since we are on the subject of japanese fans, the safeco fans have got to be the most ignorant fans anywhere.

Anytime ichiro puts the ball in play, whether it is an inning ending double play or a routine fly ball, they go nuts and start cheering as soon as the bat hits the ball. And then as soon as its caught, or the DP is turned, then there is a collective "AWW". Its like they are oblivious to how the ball was hit.

You go and create those deals to get revenue in your home market, I do not know what deals Boston has made after the DIce-K signing.

i can understand about the japanese advertisements at fenway. but frankly, i havent noticed any japanese signage there, tho i havent been looking for it.

He's 6/$52, a price that's extremely reasonable for a 26 year old pitcher. That's his contract. Period.

again, you make it sound like the sox front office never paid that $53 million dollars signing bonus. And that is essentially what it is, a signing bonus, except the bonus is going to the seibu lions instead on matsuzakas pocket. And no, that is not extrememely reasonable unless he goes out and puts up sabathia/santana numbers or close to it. The sox won last year in spite of paying 103 million dollars for matsuzaka, not because of it.

Nobody remembers Kevin Millar? Who doesn't remember Kevin Millar? That's a really stupid statement to make.

First off, kevin millar left japan to play for the marlins. why would the japanese dislike the red sox because the marlins got kevin millar? he only left to play for the sox AFTER 4 years with the fish.

And yeah, nobody in japan remembers kevin millar, that was 11 years ago, and IF they did remember him, they wouldnt blame the red sox for when the marlins got millar. The dude said that since the red sox got matsuzaka, the japanese would forgive them for kevin millar. How does that make any kind of sense?

Cabrera is a nice talent, but if he doesn't get his weight under control he's going to find his numbers going down. I have to really doubt his HOF potential at this stage of his career.

roger clemens is a fatass. He should make the HOF unless he is banned for all the HGH and steroid use.

big papi is another fatass. I dont know if he is HOF, but he is definitely a fatass. Same for prince fielder and ryan howard. They can all hit and the fat doesnt seem to interfere with that.

What I find really pathetic is that you're forgetting the youngest player ever to hit a WS home run.

youve got me there. I would guess someone from an earlier era? I guess maybe andruw jones was another phenom but I really have no idea. No one brought it up. I can check if you want, but no i dont know off hand, maybe babe ruth or gherig or mantle? I am just guessing at that point.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='dafoomie']I don't think you can judge Matsuzaka based on his rookie year, the Sox expected there would be an adjustment period for a year or two. Josh Beckett took an entire season to adjust from the NL. [/quote]

Its funny, when jason giambi or alex rodriguez sign a similar contract, they are expected to got out and perform at a high level, but if a pitcher like a zito or a matsuzaka have a couple of bad years then it is expected.

Plus, a couple days after a 2 hit/9 strikeout start

AGAINST OAKLAND my A's are terrible this year. If he gets 35 starts against oakland this year, he should do just fine.

is probably the wrong time to say he's a bust.

he got off to a good start last year and then fell apart.

He did open some opportunities in Japan, some revenue streams, though that has been overstated a little. The larger thing he's done is open the Sox to Japanese players the way Pedro did for Dominicans. Japan is still a largely untapped market for major league talent, and the Sox are ahead of the pack as far as scouting and building relationships with the local teams.

If anything I would say the mariners are ahead because they are the one team that actually has japanese american fans filling the seats. Even if 90% of them are baseball ignorant

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='dracula']exactly, he certainly helped get them there.[/QUOTE]

He played like 89 games. He helped them get there as much as the charter pilots did.

not much, but he was instrumental down the stretch, and in the playoffs. yes i watched the 2003 postseason and remember thinking it was a dumb idea putting beckett out there in game 6 on 3 days rest. The pitching was fantastic. To say cabrera had no hand in getting the marlins there is nutty. he didnt get really good until the following year at age 21, but he did plenty downt he stretct.

I'm saying he didn't put them over the top. I'll reserve that for someone like Pudge.

People are already judging barry zito off one lousy year. When you are paying 103 million dollars, you cant afford to have "one bad year". You make it sound like they dont have to pay him as much because had a bad year, and if he has some bad years, it is still worth the $103 million they spent as long as he has some good years..

If Sabean wasn't an absolute idiot, he would have seen Zito start to go before he left Oakland. Everyone else did. Zito also went 11-13 coming from a more competitive league, whereas Matsuzaka went 15-12. The ERA is similar, but we all can agree the AL is the harder league to pitch in.

yankee stadium and fenway sell out regardless of the japanese tourists. The japanese tourists wont much effect if any on attendence at new york or boston.

It's not about the tickets, it's about the merchandise.

I have no idea, I dont follow soccer. the only comparison that I can draw is that you are saying that the red sox fans were pissed when the yankees signed damon. I can understand that

Wow. Totally over your head.

since we are on the subject of japanese fans, the safeco fans have got to be the most ignorant fans anywhere.

Anytime ichiro puts the ball in play, whether it is an inning ending double play or a routine fly ball, they go nuts and start cheering as soon as the bat hits the ball. And then as soon as its caught, or the DP is turned, then there is a collective "AWW". Its like they are oblivious to how the ball was hit.

Does their ignorance impact the revenue they produce? No.

again, you make it sound like the sox front office never paid that $53 million dollars signing bonus. And that is essentially what it is, a signing bonus, except the bonus is going to the seibu lions instead on matsuzakas pocket. And no, that is not extrememely reasonable unless he goes out and puts up sabathia/santana numbers or close to it. The sox won last year in spite of paying 103 million dollars for matsuzaka, not because of it.

It's not part of the contract, it's not part of the payroll. I'm not sure how many times it needs to be stated for that to sink in. It's a long-term investment. The non-tangible revenue that it will generate and open doors for future players is something the ownership was willing to invest in.

roger clemens is a fatass. He should make the HOF unless he is banned for all the HGH and steroid use.

big papi is another fatass. I dont know if he is HOF, but he is definitely a fatass. Same for prince fielder and ryan howard. They can all hit and the fat doesnt seem to interfere with that.

None of those people play third base. Eventually, his body structure will force him to move to first, or he will develop injuries. THAT will impact his production.

youve got me there. I would guess someone from an earlier era? I guess maybe andruw jones was another phenom but I really have no idea. No one brought it up. I can check if you want, but no i dont know off hand, maybe babe ruth or gherig or mantle? I am just guessing at that point.

That would be HOF Andruw Jones.

 

[dafoomie]

[quote name='dracula']Its funny, when jason giambi or alex rodriguez sign a similar contract, they are expected to got out and perform at a high level, but if a pitcher like a zito or a matsuzaka have a couple of bad years then it is expected.[/QUOTE]
Giambi, ARod, and Zito were all established major league players. 07 was Matsuzaka's 1st year in the majors.

It doesn't matter who the opponent is. The problem Matsuzaka and many Japanese pitchers have is the desire to nibble, not go after guys, and a lack of trust in their fastball. Matsuzaka's out pitch that day was his fastball, the difference from the way he pitched last year is striking.

Also, Chunichi bought Kevin Millar's rights from the Marlins and signed him to a contract before the Sox put in a waiver claim on what was thought to be a formality. Chunichi was pissed, they thought they had a deal, and it was too late in the process to find a replacement. He hadn't played a game in Japan before that and hasn't since.

 

[ryanbph]

[quote name='dracula']I'm not sure who you are talking to here, but if anything the red sox are NOT getting a return on the 103 million dollars they spent on matsuzaka. same for the giants and zito. unless if they pitch better, those are 2 of the worst contracts in baseball. [/quote]

last I checked, opening up a training facitily is a big deal espically considering the growth of asian imports.


[quote name='dracula']
nobody cares about or remembers kevin millar. he was never that good to get excited over. [/quote]

the team the redsox prevented him from going too was not happy about, nor was the marlins. In the beckett trade the kevin millar incident and the way that henry left the florida organization were reasons brought up in the difficulty in completing the deal on a local sports radio station...weei...but hey according to you I don't listen to sports radio.

[quote name='dracula']
how much are they getting? Unless they are getting 103 million dollars, or something close to it, then still doesnt justify spending that much money on an average mlb pitcher- and that may be a stretch.[/quote]

Ohh now a 15 game winner that had a shit load of adjustments to make is an avg mlb pitcher at a stretch. Hey I guess you want to ignore the fact he had his whole world turn upside down and had to adjust to a new working enviroment, new routines, new traditions, a new language and still win 15 games with a 4.4 era and a shitload of K's. I would take his $10 plus mill contract over pavano's, clements, gil meches etc...I guess you never heard the saying baseball is 90% mental, and the other half is physical. Is dice K a #1 pitcher on a contending team. No he hasn't shown that yet. I don't even know if he has adjusted enough to have him be a legit # 2. But he has had 1 season with all the adjustments to go thru. I am willing to give him a shot. When I think of avg to below avg pitchers, I look at paul byrd, jared westbrook, aj burnett and the likes. I would take $10 ++ million contract we are PAYING DICE K over any of them. Dontrelle willis is making roughly $4mill less, and I would take dice k over him as well. If you don't think so, we are going to have to agree to disagree

I just don't agree with everything that you spout..doesn't mean I am right or wrong. I was wrong about the marlins payroll, and you have been on my nuts about everything else that I have said. It is a fact that in MLB luxurary tax, that the $50 million posting fee doesn't count to the salary. You can argue all you want how he is a $20.6 million (not 21 million) pitcher, but that isn't what he is taking home. He is getting just over $10mill per season, and considering his numbers for last year I would take that contract.

Here is an article about the potential for revenue from japan. No one knows how much matsui has helped out the indians, or ichiro has helped the mariners. I do know that the yanks grossly overpaid matsui in his last contract.

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20061116_16matbiz.32afc83.html

If you want to take your time to look, go ahead. Maybe it is in there financials. Your the google expert..use it...Doing a quick search I wasn't able to find any specific date on revenue from the asian markets for the mariners (with ichiro), the yankee's with matsui) and the redsox with dice k.


If you want to complete dismiss the fact that they sold out of the dice k redsox souveniors in japan within days of it being on store shelves that is your perogative, doesn't mean you are right. My source was sean mcadams on weei, the local boston sports radio station, within weeks of signing dice k.

last i checked dice k won 15 games last year. He made the transition from the japanese league to the AL East, he got over the language barrier, and adjusted to living in the USA. Yeah the 53 million for 5 years was a complete waste a money. Shit it took Becett a season to adjust and dice k had better numbers all around

[quote name='dracula']
What are you basing this off of? because there is minor league baseball in florida? lots of states with minor league teams also have successful mlb teams that draw[/quote]


the fact that no one shows up to games..they won 2 world series, you would expect an uptick in attendance...and still there wasn't much of an uptake...the stadium has been empty for years...I don't live in florida and my time is worth to much to research it. Here are some reasons why I believe they aren't successful..large elderly population without disposable income, horrible stadium (needs a dome), to much expansion in florida too quickly, yes other states have multiple mlb teams, but they have also been there awhile and have established a fanbase and gone thru there growing pains. Are the Oakland A's, baltimore orioles, pitt pirates really that much better then the marlins. Looking over the rosters, I don't think so. That is my opinion, I guess we will see at the end of the year. All those teams I listed IMO will have better attendance, even know they are just as horribly put together team. Just because the owners don't pay to field a good ball club, doesn't mean that they will continue to be one of the worst teams in baseball.

[quote name='dracula']
none of those players were a key piece to winning a world series at age 20- and as you keep saying the 2003 marlins are the blueprint for a small market team, (even though the marlins had a losing record that year,) they won a world series.

Hell, I am not ever sure if another 20 year old player has done that within the past 50 years. I guess you could say bret saberhagen won 2 Ws games in 1985 at age 21. But he was still a year and a half older than cabrera.

To be that good at such a young age, i guess arod or maybe griffey jr were amazing phenoms, but cabrera had just turned 20 years old and put the marlins over the top to win the WS. [/quote]


Ohh so he helped a team with the world series at 20 and that identifies him as a future hall of famer...He has similiar # to several mlb players. He is going to need another 7 or so years of similiar # and most likely will need to get 35 homers a year for him to make the hall. Is it possible, without a doubt. Is he a great talent, yes. Will you get off his nuts? You stated that the marlins won't have a player of his talent again. Hanley ramirez is putting up similiar # 's to the first 2 years of cabera carrer. I guess he isn't a once every 20 year type of player after all.

[quote name='dracula']
And you keep saying how the 2003 marlins are the ideal blueprint for small market teams, they lost more than they won, their payroll wasnt that small.

The 2007 rockies are more of a better example of a small market team winning a pennant. They had the 25th largest PR last year.[/quote]

I have never said that the marlins were the blueprint for anyone. I do believe that they will field a competitive team shortly. They have a young talented team that needs to develop. They allegedly got a bunch of talent in the caberra trade. I don't follow the marlins or tigers all that closely, so I couldn't tell you how good the talent is, but the baseball tonight crew felt that the marlins got a bounty of young prospects. If they pan out or not, we shall see.

IMO the key to small/mid market teams sucess is the scouting/development dept. The rays got a young stud when they picked up kazmir for zambrano. While the rays IMO won't win the east this year. They could compete for 3rd and cause problems for several teams. They have a payroll of what 45mill or so.

The clevand indians got good talent in grady sizemore and cliff lee in the colon deal to montreal. I also believe they spun one of the other players they got in the deal for a draft pick that netted them another contributor to the current roster.

The redsox have a big payroll. Manny ramirez and jd drew make up about 26% of the payroll though. Last year several home grown, or developed players helped out the club. Kevin Youkillis, dustin pedroia, jacoby ellsbury, john pablebon, jon lester and manny delcarmen where all home grown. Jason varitek was a prospect that they got in a heatcliff slocub trade back in the late 90's from the mariners. Curt schilling was drafter and spent some time in the boston organization before being traded to baltimore in the schilling/brady anderson for mike boddicker trade. Tim wakefield was picked up off the scrape heap after pitts cut him in the mid 90's. David ortiz was cut by the twins, and the redsox signed him originally for dirt cheap money. Having a large payroll just means you have more room to make mistakes. You can waste money on jd drew and julio lugo. You can sign jeremy giambi and have him contribute nothing. You can gamble on matt clement. With a small to mid size market team you can't dump a shit load on a player and have it not work out. Barry zitto and the giants are a perfect example.


[quote name='dracula']
Dude, I dont even know what your points are, it sounds like you dont really follow baseball, and you say you live in boston but dont watch them on TV or listen on the radio or go to games, how do you follow them? You dont seem to know much about the red sox. [/quote]


1. The florida marlins should be contracted (won't happen), move to a new stadium (in or out of florida), and come under new ownership. They have dumped a ton on talent the past couple of years. IMO, they aren't far from competing for a Wild Card spot. While they gave up a ton of talent, they got a lot of younger/cheaper talent in return. Is that a way to run a organization that will build a fanbase, no. That is the way they are currently doing business I can't do anything about it.

2. miguel caberra is not a once in a 20 year player. Yes he did it very young, but helping your club at such a young age to win the world series does not reflect on getting into the hall of fame. Getting into the Hall of Fame requires great numbers for a long period of time. At 24 or so ken griffey looked to be a lock, and injuries slowed him down. Caberra is about 1/2 way there to earing a spot in the hall. Lets not crown him as a 1 in a 20 year player yet. Pujols is only 3 years older, and has put up a lot more power numbers, and a better avg. He also helped his team win a world series. No it wasn't when he was 20, but he still was the cornerstone

3. Spening a lot of money on free agents doesn't equal wins. You need great scouting/player development. Even big market teams need young cheap talent to trade to get the soon to be expensive players. The mets gave up some prospects for santana. The redsox for beckett and the yankee's did it every trading deadline during there run. You yourself stated that there was a fair amount of teams below the 90mill threshold that would compete in there division. When the yanks went on there run of dominating baseball, they had a cornerstone of homegrown talent. Jeter, williams, posada, pettite, rivera and mendoza (was a key setup guy during the run).

4. I don't even know why you are all over everything I say. I was wrong about the marlins first ws payroll. I am sorry, I mispoke and admitted to being wrong. I didn't quote coechesel and my post ended up on the top of the next page with no reference to what I was talking about. You took some other things out of context. Don't be all preachy and high and mighty when you don't believe there isn't revenue coming in from asia for the redsox.

Don't be so judgemental. I followed baseball extensively from 86 untill 94 or so. I followed the redsox from 94 untill 04, and in 04 I had the time to watch baseball tonight, read articles on espn/yahoo sports about the rest of the league. At the same time I also got the opportunity to stream/or listen on the radio weei, the boston sports talk station. I was up at 5:30 am to watch the pregame shows for the sox first 2 gams, and have stayed up untill 1am watching the past 2 sox games. If you want to IM privately about the redsox, the teams history, my thoughts on the current team and organization, you can pm me and I will give you my msn messenger or aol IM info. I could talk/type for hours on my opinions on the boston redsox. My best friend in college was a diehard yankee fan before they were even a contending team. Talking about all there prospects. We still talk at least 2 x a week and spend a good hour discussing the redsox/yankee's and other teams that could cause our team problems.

I don't know every teams payroll, and to be honest with you I don't give a shit. I care about my team and what they are doing. I also don't know where the marlins could move too...But knowing that nevada or the carolina's won't build stadiums for a MLB team the necessary threshold to be considered knowledgable about baseball. I didn't believe that was a necessary requirement.

 

[paddlefoot]

Merchandising Revenues are a moot point.

They are shared equally among the teams

The fact that the Yankees and Red Sox make up 50% of all merchandising sales doesn't change that fact. (I may be a little off on the math)

 

[Otherguy676]

The Red Sox are getting there money's worth financially with Dice-K. True, he is no performing like he should with the amount he cost, however, if he bounces back this year then he'll be fine. Financially, the Red Sox are making a killing off of Japanese and Dice-K fans, the Boston Globe ran an article online a while back about how he is helping club revenue. He IS baseball in Japan as he was a High School star. The Red Sox have opened up another market in baseball, and their television agreement (I think through MLB) in Japan, alone is quite a bit of money.
As for Millar, he was outstanding in the club house, and big reason that the "idiots" won in '04. He still plays jokes on Tito, and helped changed the Sox from 25 guys, 25 cars, to a fun loving team. He helped gel the team, bring out a personality in Manny at the time, and was good fun. I sat in the outfield during a Rays game and he was talking to Damon and keeping the team loose. He was just fun to watch and the team clearly enjoyed him. You can't measure that kind of intangible.

 

[ryanbph]

tv rights and ad revenue aren't moot..either is the training facility that got to build...yes 103 million was a lot to spend on dice k, an unproven MLB talent alone. He has yet to perform to be the top of the rotation pitcher we thought we were getting...but he also is far from an average player. He has the ability to be a stud in the rotation. If he gets over his japanese influence on the way to pitch, focuses only 3 or so pitches, not the 6 or so he claims to have, and gets confortable in his new life in america he will be fine. Those are a lot of if's, but with one of the best game calling catchers in the game, I think that it is just as likely that he will rise to the top as it is he will suck or be a 3 or 4 starter in the sox rotation.

 

[Ikohn4ever]

and the Phillies finally win one, and the crowd goes wild

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='ryanbph']tv rights and ad revenue aren't moot..[/QUOTE]

Well, as I pointed out before, a team only gets revenue for things inside it's home market.

 

[ryanbph]

[quote name='dracula']


-they probably wont bring another miguel cabrera again. I guess its possible, but cabrera is hall of fame caliber. He is way to young to say something like that for sure, but there are only a handful of active players i would say that about.[/quote]


while he is very young as well, hanley ramirez is putting up simliar numbers to caberra at the same point in his carreer....hanley avg the first 2 seasons as caberra first full 2 seasons are very similiar, I think hanley had a couple points higher. Power wise, hanley hit 17 and 29....caberra hit 33 both seasons, which isn't bad considering hanley doesn't really look like a power hitter compared to caberra.....Miguel does have a much better obp later on in his short carrer, but early on it was still better the ramirez. Hanley does have a tool that caberra doesn't have, and that is speed.


The marlins have a lot of young players, that wouldn't be playing at the MLB level with other teams..They have a very young staff and bullpen. No they aren't great, but they are developing at the mlb level...the tigers went thru the same rebuilding process just a couple of years ago. All the young pitchers got killed a season or 2 before they went to the world series. The atlanta braves let tom glavine go out and get his ass handed to him back in the late 80's before they become the NL east champ team they were a few years later. No the marlins they way they currently are run, will never make a string of runs, but that doesn't mean they can't compete with a bunch of young players.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='ryanbph']

and it isn't a valid point that the redsox are getting a return on investment of the posting fee but opening up channels in Japan...[/quote]

I'm not sure who you are talking to here, but if anything the red sox are NOT getting a return on the 103 million dollars they spent on matsuzaka. same for the giants and zito. unless if they pitch better, those are 2 of the worst contracts in baseball.

since the posting fee, they setup a training facility in japan, repaired any bad blood about stealing kevin millar from a japanese league team,

nobody cares about or remembers kevin millar. he was never that good to get excited over.

and have received revenue from ads/tv/and souveniors from japan that wasn't there before.

how much are they getting? Unless they are getting 103 million dollars, or something close to it, then still doesnt justify spending that much money on an average mlb pitcher- and that may be a stretch.

As bad as the marlins ownership is in florida, I don't think they would have a fanbase that could support them if they got a newer stadium,

What are you basing this off of? because there is minor league baseball in florida? lots of states with minor league teams also have successful mlb teams that draw

and was a middle of the road spending club. I also believe they are a year or 2 away from competing again...They have a lot of young potential stars, that on a big market team would be in AAA or AA that would still be developed

joba chamberlain and phil hughes were called up at 21 years old

As for your previous comment about cabrera being a once every 20 year type of player, maybe he will be. Many scouts compare him to manny ramirez, and he has came up about as a regular about 13 years ago....arod is not only great offensively, he was a solid ss....pujols has put up solid numbers for 7 years..

none of those players were a key piece to winning a world series at age 20- and as you keep saying the 2003 marlins are the blueprint for a small market team, (even though the marlins had a losing record that year,) they won a world series.

Hell, I am not ever sure if another 20 year old player has done that within the past 50 years. I guess you could say bret saberhagen won 2 Ws games in 1985 at age 21. But he was still a year and a half older than cabrera.

To be that good at such a young age, i guess arod or maybe griffey jr were amazing phenoms, but cabrera had just turned 20 years old and put the marlins over the top to win the WS.

And you keep saying how the 2003 marlins are the ideal blueprint for small market teams, they lost more than they won, their payroll wasnt that small.

The 2007 rockies are more of a better example of a small market team winning a pennant. They had the 25th largest PR last year.

Dude, I dont even know what your points are, it sounds like you dont really follow baseball, and you say you live in boston but dont watch them on TV or listen on the radio or go to games, how do you follow them? You dont seem to know much about the red sox.



[quote name='ryanbph']

The marlins have a lot of young players, that wouldn't be playing at the MLB level with other teams..They have a very young staff and bullpen. No they aren't great, but they are developing at the mlb level...the tigers went thru the same rebuilding process just a couple of years ago. All the young pitchers got killed a season or 2 before they went to the world series.[/QUOTE]

I assume you are talking about mike maroth and jeremy bonderman and nate robertson?

maroth wasnt on the postseason roster. bonderman and robertson were always garbage, both have a career ERA over 4.60.

Justin verlander was a rookie in 2006 and never got killed at the MLB lever. And kenny rogers was 40 years old.

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='dracula']

Dude, I dont even know what your points are, it sounds like you dont really follow baseball, and you say you live in boston but dont watch them on TV or listen on the radio or go to games, how do you follow them? You dont seem to know much about the red sox.[/QUOTE]

You keep saying that, but I'm starting to think that i'ts yourself who doesn't really follow baseball.

Miguel Cabrera didn't win the 2003 WS for the Marlins, Josh Beckett did. He had a great NLCS, but what exactly did he do in the WS? Hit a HR off of Clemens? Drive in a couple of runs? He hit .167.

I'm still trying to understand what point you're trying to make with the Matsuzaka contract. $50M to the Red Sox or the Yankees is a write-off, something not even covered under the luxury tax agreement. It's also hard to judge him based on one year's worth of starts in the MLB.

The Red Sox don't receive any revenue from promotional deals or sales outside their home market. All those Red Sox jerseys they sell in Japan go straight to MLB. BUT, and it's an important BUT, that helps to unseat the worldwide marketing domination of the Yankees. When those Japanese tourists come to America, they're going to want to go to Fenway, and not Yankee Stadium.

Same principle applies to the Premier League. If I ask you to name a Premiership club, you're going to say Manchester United. Part of winning the fanbase 'war' is not only winning championships, but going after players in markets you covet. See the huge amount of Japanese advertising at Safeco? Part of that comes from Nintendo being majority owners, but some of it does come from Ichiro. There wouldn't be any Japanese on the backstop if the Japanese weren't watching. You go and create those deals to get revenue in your home market, I do not know what deals Boston has made after the DIce-K signing.

He's 6/$52, a price that's extremely reasonable for a 26 year old pitcher. That's his contract. Period.

Nobody remembers Kevin Millar? Who doesn't remember Kevin Millar? That's a really stupid statement to make.

Cabrera is a nice talent, but if he doesn't get his weight under control he's going to find his numbers going down. I have to really doubt his HOF potential at this stage of his career.

What I find really pathetic is that you're forgetting the youngest player ever to hit a WS home run.

 

[dafoomie]

[quote name='dracula']I'm not sure who you are talking to here, but if anything the red sox are NOT getting a return on the 103 million dollars they spent on matsuzaka. same for the giants and zito. unless if they pitch better, those are 2 of the worst contracts in baseball.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you can judge Matsuzaka based on his rookie year, the Sox expected there would be an adjustment period for a year or two. Josh Beckett took an entire season to adjust from the NL. Plus, a couple days after a 2 hit/9 strikeout start is probably the wrong time to say he's a bust.

He did open some opportunities in Japan, some revenue streams, though that has been overstated a little. The larger thing he's done is open the Sox to Japanese players the way Pedro did for Dominicans. Japan is still a largely untapped market for major league talent, and the Sox are ahead of the pack as far as scouting and building relationships with the local teams.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='CocheseUGA']You keep saying that, but I'm starting to think that i'ts yourself who doesn't really follow baseball.

Miguel Cabrera didn't win the 2003 WS for the Marlins, Josh Beckett did. He had a great NLCS[/quote]

exactly, he certainly helped get them there.

but what exactly did he do in the WS?

not much, but he was instrumental down the stretch, and in the playoffs. yes i watched the 2003 postseason and remember thinking it was a dumb idea putting beckett out there in game 6 on 3 days rest. The pitching was fantastic. To say cabrera had no hand in getting the marlins there is nutty. he didnt get really good until the following year at age 21, but he did plenty downt he stretct.

I'm still trying to understand what point you're trying to make with the Matsuzaka contract. $50M to the Red Sox or the Yankees is a write-off, something not even covered under the luxury tax agreement.

I am saying he isnt worth the money. then someone says. "the red sox arent even paying that much money, the extra $50 million doesnt count".

It's also hard to judge him based on one year's worth of starts in the MLB.

People are already judging barry zito off one lousy year. When you are paying 103 million dollars, you cant afford to have "one bad year". You make it sound like they dont have to pay him as much because had a bad year, and if he has some bad years, it is still worth the $103 million they spent as long as he has some good years..

The Red Sox don't receive any revenue from promotional deals or sales outside their home market. All those Red Sox jerseys they sell in Japan go straight to MLB. BUT, and it's an important BUT, that helps to unseat the worldwide marketing domination of the Yankees. When those Japanese tourists come to America, they're going to want to go to Fenway, and not Yankee Stadium.

yankee stadium and fenway sell out regardless of the japanese tourists. The japanese tourists wont much effect if any on attendence at new york or boston.

Same principle applies to the Premier League. If I ask you to name a Premiership club, you're going to say Manchester United. Part of winning the fanbase 'war' is not only winning championships, but going after players in markets you covet.

I have no idea, I dont follow soccer. the only comparison that I can draw is that you are saying that the red sox fans were pissed when the yankees signed damon. I can understand that

See the huge amount of Japanese advertising at Safeco? Part of that comes from Nintendo being majority owners, but some of it does come from Ichiro. There wouldn't be any Japanese on the backstop if the Japanese weren't watching.

since we are on the subject of japanese fans, the safeco fans have got to be the most ignorant fans anywhere.

Anytime ichiro puts the ball in play, whether it is an inning ending double play or a routine fly ball, they go nuts and start cheering as soon as the bat hits the ball. And then as soon as its caught, or the DP is turned, then there is a collective "AWW". Its like they are oblivious to how the ball was hit.

You go and create those deals to get revenue in your home market, I do not know what deals Boston has made after the DIce-K signing.

i can understand about the japanese advertisements at fenway. but frankly, i havent noticed any japanese signage there, tho i havent been looking for it.

He's 6/$52, a price that's extremely reasonable for a 26 year old pitcher. That's his contract. Period.

again, you make it sound like the sox front office never paid that $53 million dollars signing bonus. And that is essentially what it is, a signing bonus, except the bonus is going to the seibu lions instead on matsuzakas pocket. And no, that is not extrememely reasonable unless he goes out and puts up sabathia/santana numbers or close to it. The sox won last year in spite of paying 103 million dollars for matsuzaka, not because of it.

Nobody remembers Kevin Millar? Who doesn't remember Kevin Millar? That's a really stupid statement to make.

First off, kevin millar left japan to play for the marlins. why would the japanese dislike the red sox because the marlins got kevin millar? he only left to play for the sox AFTER 4 years with the fish.

And yeah, nobody in japan remembers kevin millar, that was 11 years ago, and IF they did remember him, they wouldnt blame the red sox for when the marlins got millar. The dude said that since the red sox got matsuzaka, the japanese would forgive them for kevin millar. How does that make any kind of sense?

Cabrera is a nice talent, but if he doesn't get his weight under control he's going to find his numbers going down. I have to really doubt his HOF potential at this stage of his career.

roger clemens is a fatass. He should make the HOF unless he is banned for all the HGH and steroid use.

big papi is another fatass. I dont know if he is HOF, but he is definitely a fatass. Same for prince fielder and ryan howard. They can all hit and the fat doesnt seem to interfere with that.

What I find really pathetic is that you're forgetting the youngest player ever to hit a WS home run.

youve got me there. I would guess someone from an earlier era? I guess maybe andruw jones was another phenom but I really have no idea. No one brought it up. I can check if you want, but no i dont know off hand, maybe babe ruth or gherig or mantle? I am just guessing at that point.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='dafoomie']I don't think you can judge Matsuzaka based on his rookie year, the Sox expected there would be an adjustment period for a year or two. Josh Beckett took an entire season to adjust from the NL. [/quote]

Its funny, when jason giambi or alex rodriguez sign a similar contract, they are expected to got out and perform at a high level, but if a pitcher like a zito or a matsuzaka have a couple of bad years then it is expected.

Plus, a couple days after a 2 hit/9 strikeout start

AGAINST OAKLAND my A's are terrible this year. If he gets 35 starts against oakland this year, he should do just fine.

is probably the wrong time to say he's a bust.

he got off to a good start last year and then fell apart.

He did open some opportunities in Japan, some revenue streams, though that has been overstated a little. The larger thing he's done is open the Sox to Japanese players the way Pedro did for Dominicans. Japan is still a largely untapped market for major league talent, and the Sox are ahead of the pack as far as scouting and building relationships with the local teams.

If anything I would say the mariners are ahead because they are the one team that actually has japanese american fans filling the seats. Even if 90% of them are baseball ignorant

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='dracula']exactly, he certainly helped get them there.[/QUOTE]

He played like 89 games. He helped them get there as much as the charter pilots did.

not much, but he was instrumental down the stretch, and in the playoffs. yes i watched the 2003 postseason and remember thinking it was a dumb idea putting beckett out there in game 6 on 3 days rest. The pitching was fantastic. To say cabrera had no hand in getting the marlins there is nutty. he didnt get really good until the following year at age 21, but he did plenty downt he stretct.

I'm saying he didn't put them over the top. I'll reserve that for someone like Pudge.

People are already judging barry zito off one lousy year. When you are paying 103 million dollars, you cant afford to have "one bad year". You make it sound like they dont have to pay him as much because had a bad year, and if he has some bad years, it is still worth the $103 million they spent as long as he has some good years..

If Sabean wasn't an absolute idiot, he would have seen Zito start to go before he left Oakland. Everyone else did. Zito also went 11-13 coming from a more competitive league, whereas Matsuzaka went 15-12. The ERA is similar, but we all can agree the AL is the harder league to pitch in.

yankee stadium and fenway sell out regardless of the japanese tourists. The japanese tourists wont much effect if any on attendence at new york or boston.

It's not about the tickets, it's about the merchandise.

I have no idea, I dont follow soccer. the only comparison that I can draw is that you are saying that the red sox fans were pissed when the yankees signed damon. I can understand that

Wow. Totally over your head.

since we are on the subject of japanese fans, the safeco fans have got to be the most ignorant fans anywhere.

Anytime ichiro puts the ball in play, whether it is an inning ending double play or a routine fly ball, they go nuts and start cheering as soon as the bat hits the ball. And then as soon as its caught, or the DP is turned, then there is a collective "AWW". Its like they are oblivious to how the ball was hit.

Does their ignorance impact the revenue they produce? No.

again, you make it sound like the sox front office never paid that $53 million dollars signing bonus. And that is essentially what it is, a signing bonus, except the bonus is going to the seibu lions instead on matsuzakas pocket. And no, that is not extrememely reasonable unless he goes out and puts up sabathia/santana numbers or close to it. The sox won last year in spite of paying 103 million dollars for matsuzaka, not because of it.

It's not part of the contract, it's not part of the payroll. I'm not sure how many times it needs to be stated for that to sink in. It's a long-term investment. The non-tangible revenue that it will generate and open doors for future players is something the ownership was willing to invest in.

roger clemens is a fatass. He should make the HOF unless he is banned for all the HGH and steroid use.

big papi is another fatass. I dont know if he is HOF, but he is definitely a fatass. Same for prince fielder and ryan howard. They can all hit and the fat doesnt seem to interfere with that.

None of those people play third base. Eventually, his body structure will force him to move to first, or he will develop injuries. THAT will impact his production.

youve got me there. I would guess someone from an earlier era? I guess maybe andruw jones was another phenom but I really have no idea. No one brought it up. I can check if you want, but no i dont know off hand, maybe babe ruth or gherig or mantle? I am just guessing at that point.

That would be HOF Andruw Jones.

 

[dafoomie]

[quote name='dracula']Its funny, when jason giambi or alex rodriguez sign a similar contract, they are expected to got out and perform at a high level, but if a pitcher like a zito or a matsuzaka have a couple of bad years then it is expected.[/QUOTE]
Giambi, ARod, and Zito were all established major league players. 07 was Matsuzaka's 1st year in the majors.

It doesn't matter who the opponent is. The problem Matsuzaka and many Japanese pitchers have is the desire to nibble, not go after guys, and a lack of trust in their fastball. Matsuzaka's out pitch that day was his fastball, the difference from the way he pitched last year is striking.

Also, Chunichi bought Kevin Millar's rights from the Marlins and signed him to a contract before the Sox put in a waiver claim on what was thought to be a formality. Chunichi was pissed, they thought they had a deal, and it was too late in the process to find a replacement. He hadn't played a game in Japan before that and hasn't since.

 

[ryanbph]

[quote name='dracula']I'm not sure who you are talking to here, but if anything the red sox are NOT getting a return on the 103 million dollars they spent on matsuzaka. same for the giants and zito. unless if they pitch better, those are 2 of the worst contracts in baseball. [/quote]

last I checked, opening up a training facitily is a big deal espically considering the growth of asian imports.


[quote name='dracula']
nobody cares about or remembers kevin millar. he was never that good to get excited over. [/quote]

the team the redsox prevented him from going too was not happy about, nor was the marlins. In the beckett trade the kevin millar incident and the way that henry left the florida organization were reasons brought up in the difficulty in completing the deal on a local sports radio station...weei...but hey according to you I don't listen to sports radio.

[quote name='dracula']
how much are they getting? Unless they are getting 103 million dollars, or something close to it, then still doesnt justify spending that much money on an average mlb pitcher- and that may be a stretch.[/quote]

Ohh now a 15 game winner that had a shit load of adjustments to make is an avg mlb pitcher at a stretch. Hey I guess you want to ignore the fact he had his whole world turn upside down and had to adjust to a new working enviroment, new routines, new traditions, a new language and still win 15 games with a 4.4 era and a shitload of K's. I would take his $10 plus mill contract over pavano's, clements, gil meches etc...I guess you never heard the saying baseball is 90% mental, and the other half is physical. Is dice K a #1 pitcher on a contending team. No he hasn't shown that yet. I don't even know if he has adjusted enough to have him be a legit # 2. But he has had 1 season with all the adjustments to go thru. I am willing to give him a shot. When I think of avg to below avg pitchers, I look at paul byrd, jared westbrook, aj burnett and the likes. I would take $10 ++ million contract we are PAYING DICE K over any of them. Dontrelle willis is making roughly $4mill less, and I would take dice k over him as well. If you don't think so, we are going to have to agree to disagree

I just don't agree with everything that you spout..doesn't mean I am right or wrong. I was wrong about the marlins payroll, and you have been on my nuts about everything else that I have said. It is a fact that in MLB luxurary tax, that the $50 million posting fee doesn't count to the salary. You can argue all you want how he is a $20.6 million (not 21 million) pitcher, but that isn't what he is taking home. He is getting just over $10mill per season, and considering his numbers for last year I would take that contract.

Here is an article about the potential for revenue from japan. No one knows how much matsui has helped out the indians, or ichiro has helped the mariners. I do know that the yanks grossly overpaid matsui in his last contract.

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20061116_16matbiz.32afc83.html

If you want to take your time to look, go ahead. Maybe it is in there financials. Your the google expert..use it...Doing a quick search I wasn't able to find any specific date on revenue from the asian markets for the mariners (with ichiro), the yankee's with matsui) and the redsox with dice k.


If you want to complete dismiss the fact that they sold out of the dice k redsox souveniors in japan within days of it being on store shelves that is your perogative, doesn't mean you are right. My source was sean mcadams on weei, the local boston sports radio station, within weeks of signing dice k.

last i checked dice k won 15 games last year. He made the transition from the japanese league to the AL East, he got over the language barrier, and adjusted to living in the USA. Yeah the 53 million for 5 years was a complete waste a money. Shit it took Becett a season to adjust and dice k had better numbers all around

[quote name='dracula']
What are you basing this off of? because there is minor league baseball in florida? lots of states with minor league teams also have successful mlb teams that draw[/quote]


the fact that no one shows up to games..they won 2 world series, you would expect an uptick in attendance...and still there wasn't much of an uptake...the stadium has been empty for years...I don't live in florida and my time is worth to much to research it. Here are some reasons why I believe they aren't successful..large elderly population without disposable income, horrible stadium (needs a dome), to much expansion in florida too quickly, yes other states have multiple mlb teams, but they have also been there awhile and have established a fanbase and gone thru there growing pains. Are the Oakland A's, baltimore orioles, pitt pirates really that much better then the marlins. Looking over the rosters, I don't think so. That is my opinion, I guess we will see at the end of the year. All those teams I listed IMO will have better attendance, even know they are just as horribly put together team. Just because the owners don't pay to field a good ball club, doesn't mean that they will continue to be one of the worst teams in baseball.

[quote name='dracula']
none of those players were a key piece to winning a world series at age 20- and as you keep saying the 2003 marlins are the blueprint for a small market team, (even though the marlins had a losing record that year,) they won a world series.

Hell, I am not ever sure if another 20 year old player has done that within the past 50 years. I guess you could say bret saberhagen won 2 Ws games in 1985 at age 21. But he was still a year and a half older than cabrera.

To be that good at such a young age, i guess arod or maybe griffey jr were amazing phenoms, but cabrera had just turned 20 years old and put the marlins over the top to win the WS. [/quote]


Ohh so he helped a team with the world series at 20 and that identifies him as a future hall of famer...He has similiar # to several mlb players. He is going to need another 7 or so years of similiar # and most likely will need to get 35 homers a year for him to make the hall. Is it possible, without a doubt. Is he a great talent, yes. Will you get off his nuts? You stated that the marlins won't have a player of his talent again. Hanley ramirez is putting up similiar # 's to the first 2 years of cabera carrer. I guess he isn't a once every 20 year type of player after all.

[quote name='dracula']
And you keep saying how the 2003 marlins are the ideal blueprint for small market teams, they lost more than they won, their payroll wasnt that small.

The 2007 rockies are more of a better example of a small market team winning a pennant. They had the 25th largest PR last year.[/quote]

I have never said that the marlins were the blueprint for anyone. I do believe that they will field a competitive team shortly. They have a young talented team that needs to develop. They allegedly got a bunch of talent in the caberra trade. I don't follow the marlins or tigers all that closely, so I couldn't tell you how good the talent is, but the baseball tonight crew felt that the marlins got a bounty of young prospects. If they pan out or not, we shall see.

IMO the key to small/mid market teams sucess is the scouting/development dept. The rays got a young stud when they picked up kazmir for zambrano. While the rays IMO won't win the east this year. They could compete for 3rd and cause problems for several teams. They have a payroll of what 45mill or so.

The clevand indians got good talent in grady sizemore and cliff lee in the colon deal to montreal. I also believe they spun one of the other players they got in the deal for a draft pick that netted them another contributor to the current roster.

The redsox have a big payroll. Manny ramirez and jd drew make up about 26% of the payroll though. Last year several home grown, or developed players helped out the club. Kevin Youkillis, dustin pedroia, jacoby ellsbury, john pablebon, jon lester and manny delcarmen where all home grown. Jason varitek was a prospect that they got in a heatcliff slocub trade back in the late 90's from the mariners. Curt schilling was drafter and spent some time in the boston organization before being traded to baltimore in the schilling/brady anderson for mike boddicker trade. Tim wakefield was picked up off the scrape heap after pitts cut him in the mid 90's. David ortiz was cut by the twins, and the redsox signed him originally for dirt cheap money. Having a large payroll just means you have more room to make mistakes. You can waste money on jd drew and julio lugo. You can sign jeremy giambi and have him contribute nothing. You can gamble on matt clement. With a small to mid size market team you can't dump a shit load on a player and have it not work out. Barry zitto and the giants are a perfect example.


[quote name='dracula']
Dude, I dont even know what your points are, it sounds like you dont really follow baseball, and you say you live in boston but dont watch them on TV or listen on the radio or go to games, how do you follow them? You dont seem to know much about the red sox. [/quote]


1. The florida marlins should be contracted (won't happen), move to a new stadium (in or out of florida), and come under new ownership. They have dumped a ton on talent the past couple of years. IMO, they aren't far from competing for a Wild Card spot. While they gave up a ton of talent, they got a lot of younger/cheaper talent in return. Is that a way to run a organization that will build a fanbase, no. That is the way they are currently doing business I can't do anything about it.

2. miguel caberra is not a once in a 20 year player. Yes he did it very young, but helping your club at such a young age to win the world series does not reflect on getting into the hall of fame. Getting into the Hall of Fame requires great numbers for a long period of time. At 24 or so ken griffey looked to be a lock, and injuries slowed him down. Caberra is about 1/2 way there to earing a spot in the hall. Lets not crown him as a 1 in a 20 year player yet. Pujols is only 3 years older, and has put up a lot more power numbers, and a better avg. He also helped his team win a world series. No it wasn't when he was 20, but he still was the cornerstone

3. Spening a lot of money on free agents doesn't equal wins. You need great scouting/player development. Even big market teams need young cheap talent to trade to get the soon to be expensive players. The mets gave up some prospects for santana. The redsox for beckett and the yankee's did it every trading deadline during there run. You yourself stated that there was a fair amount of teams below the 90mill threshold that would compete in there division. When the yanks went on there run of dominating baseball, they had a cornerstone of homegrown talent. Jeter, williams, posada, pettite, rivera and mendoza (was a key setup guy during the run).

4. I don't even know why you are all over everything I say. I was wrong about the marlins first ws payroll. I am sorry, I mispoke and admitted to being wrong. I didn't quote coechesel and my post ended up on the top of the next page with no reference to what I was talking about. You took some other things out of context. Don't be all preachy and high and mighty when you don't believe there isn't revenue coming in from asia for the redsox.

Don't be so judgemental. I followed baseball extensively from 86 untill 94 or so. I followed the redsox from 94 untill 04, and in 04 I had the time to watch baseball tonight, read articles on espn/yahoo sports about the rest of the league. At the same time I also got the opportunity to stream/or listen on the radio weei, the boston sports talk station. I was up at 5:30 am to watch the pregame shows for the sox first 2 gams, and have stayed up untill 1am watching the past 2 sox games. If you want to IM privately about the redsox, the teams history, my thoughts on the current team and organization, you can pm me and I will give you my msn messenger or aol IM info. I could talk/type for hours on my opinions on the boston redsox. My best friend in college was a diehard yankee fan before they were even a contending team. Talking about all there prospects. We still talk at least 2 x a week and spend a good hour discussing the redsox/yankee's and other teams that could cause our team problems.

I don't know every teams payroll, and to be honest with you I don't give a shit. I care about my team and what they are doing. I also don't know where the marlins could move too...But knowing that nevada or the carolina's won't build stadiums for a MLB team the necessary threshold to be considered knowledgable about baseball. I didn't believe that was a necessary requirement.

 

[paddlefoot]

Merchandising Revenues are a moot point.

They are shared equally among the teams

The fact that the Yankees and Red Sox make up 50% of all merchandising sales doesn't change that fact. (I may be a little off on the math)

 

[Otherguy676]

The Red Sox are getting there money's worth financially with Dice-K. True, he is no performing like he should with the amount he cost, however, if he bounces back this year then he'll be fine. Financially, the Red Sox are making a killing off of Japanese and Dice-K fans, the Boston Globe ran an article online a while back about how he is helping club revenue. He IS baseball in Japan as he was a High School star. The Red Sox have opened up another market in baseball, and their television agreement (I think through MLB) in Japan, alone is quite a bit of money.
As for Millar, he was outstanding in the club house, and big reason that the "idiots" won in '04. He still plays jokes on Tito, and helped changed the Sox from 25 guys, 25 cars, to a fun loving team. He helped gel the team, bring out a personality in Manny at the time, and was good fun. I sat in the outfield during a Rays game and he was talking to Damon and keeping the team loose. He was just fun to watch and the team clearly enjoyed him. You can't measure that kind of intangible.

 

[ryanbph]

tv rights and ad revenue aren't moot..either is the training facility that got to build...yes 103 million was a lot to spend on dice k, an unproven MLB talent alone. He has yet to perform to be the top of the rotation pitcher we thought we were getting...but he also is far from an average player. He has the ability to be a stud in the rotation. If he gets over his japanese influence on the way to pitch, focuses only 3 or so pitches, not the 6 or so he claims to have, and gets confortable in his new life in america he will be fine. Those are a lot of if's, but with one of the best game calling catchers in the game, I think that it is just as likely that he will rise to the top as it is he will suck or be a 3 or 4 starter in the sox rotation.

 

[Ikohn4ever]

and the Phillies finally win one, and the crowd goes wild

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='ryanbph']tv rights and ad revenue aren't moot..[/QUOTE]

Well, as I pointed out before, a team only gets revenue for things inside it's home market.

 

[integralsmatic]

Big Shocker of the week. The Royals took out the Tigers in a 3 game sweep.

 

[vrs1650]

[quote name='dafoomie']I don't think you can judge Matsuzaka based on his rookie year, the Sox expected there would be an adjustment period for a year or two. Josh Beckett took an entire season to adjust from the NL. Plus, a couple days after a 2 hit/9 strikeout start is probably the wrong time to say he's a bust.

He did open some opportunities in Japan, some revenue streams, though that has been overstated a little. The larger thing he's done is open the Sox to Japanese players the way Pedro did for Dominicans. Japan is still a largely untapped market for major league talent, and the Sox are ahead of the pack as far as scouting and building relationships with the local teams.[/quote]

What how can the SOX be ahead of the pack, I mean geez, the Red Sox sign Dice-K in 07. That's how many years after the Dodgers signed Nomo. 12. Plus you have Ichiro with the Mariners and many other teams that have signed Major League talent from Japan before Dice-K. I mean the Mets have had 8 Japanese players on their roster before the Red Sox signed Dice-K. I don't think the Red Sox are "trailblazers" when it comes to signing, scouting or building relationships with Japanese teams.

 

[dafoomie]

[quote name='vrs1650']What how can the SOX be ahead of the pack, I mean geez, the Red Sox sign Dice-K in 07. That's how many years after the Dodgers signed Nomo. 12. Plus you have Ichiro with the Mariners and many other teams that have signed Major League talent from Japan before Dice-K. I mean the Mets have had 8 Japanese players on their roster before the Red Sox signed Dice-K. I don't think the Red Sox are "trailblazers" when it comes to signing, scouting or building relationships with Japanese teams.[/QUOTE]
The Sox were heavily scouting in Japan well before the team was even sold to this ownership group, Tomo Ohka was given to the Red Sox as a gift from Yokohama in 98.

But thats not the point at all. Teams have been slow to fully exploit the Japanese market as the Sox have begun doing. There are other teams out there, but two or three teams is not "the pack". Most teams still are not investing the time and money.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='ryanbph']

Ohh now a 15 game winner that had a shit load of adjustments to make is an avg mlb pitcher at a stretch. [/quote]

piling up wins is easy with lots of run support. That doesnt make him an average pitcher.

Fools on here keep saying, "the red sox didnt actually have to pay the $50 million dollar signing bonus because it isnt a part of the luxury tax! So it doesnt count!. And since they didnt have to pay teh $50 million dollars, that means matsuzaka is a bargain!"

wake up, the sox had to pay the $50 million. There isnt any long term investment, that money is gone. Just because it doesnt show up on the luxury tax doesnt mean they some how got out of paying the $50 million.

Hey I guess you want to ignore the fact he had his whole world turn upside down

Ichiro, hideki, and nomo all were stars immediately when coming into the USA, and the sox are paid out a LOT more to get matsuzaka than the yankees, mariners and dodgers paid out. For $103 million, he sure as shit better play like an allstar, not a 4.40 ERA

and had to adjust to a new working enviroment, new routines, new traditions, a new language and still win 15 games with a 4.4 era and a shitload of K's. I would take his $10 plus mill contract over pavano's, clements, gil meches etc

those are all bad contracts, yes. And here you go again, you would take the $10 million per year for matsuzaka, but you dont want to take the $50 million signing bonus. Whether or not you want to take it, boston paid the 103 million

...I guess you never heard the saying baseball is 90% mental, and the other half is physical. Is dice K a #1 pitcher on a contending team. No he hasn't shown that yet.

yes of course deception is important to a pitcher. matsuzaka's biggest problem wasnt any of the things you mentioned, he cant pitch as well coming out of the stretch. When runners are on base, his control suffers. If he cant get over that, he wont be effective in MLB.

I don't even know if he has adjusted enough to have him be a legit # 2. But he has had 1 season with all the adjustments to go thru. I am willing to give him a shot. When I think of avg to below avg pitchers, I look at paul byrd,

paul byrd won 15 games last year, just like matsuzaka. Matsuzaka has better peripherals, but you said that matsuzaka is good because of the 15 wins. I think they are both below average pitchers. And matsuzaka is costing the red sox about $90 million more. I dont think much of byrd, but by your definition he is good.

jared westbrook, aj burnett and the likes.

agreed about JAKE westbrook, but burnett is money. He is a far superior pitcher than matsuzaka, it isnt even close:

2007 burnett: 3.75 ERA 1.19 whip .214 batting average against 176Ks
2007 dice k: 4.40 ERA 1.32 Whip .246 bAA 201 Ks

What are you talking about?

I would take $10 ++ million contract we are PAYING DICE K over any of them.

again, you completely ignore that the red sox had to pay the enormous signing bonus to the seibu lions. You keep saying, that doesnt count! and imply the red sox somehow avoiding paying the $50 million signing bonus

Dontrelle willis is making roughly $4mill less, and I would take dice k over him as well. If you don't think so, we are going to have to agree to disagree

i dont really like either of them

I just don't agree with everything that you spout..doesn't mean I am right or wrong.

you say that it is a stretch to call a 15 game winner a below average pitcher. Then you say paul byrd a below average pitcher. Which is it?

You say burnett isnt as good as matsuzaka, but burnett squashes him. you say the a's and twins were contenders with "very small(your exact words) payroll", but it really wasnt small at all.

I was wrong about the marlins payroll, and you have been on my nuts about everything else that I have said. It is a fact that in MLB luxurary tax, that the $50 million posting fee doesn't count to the salary. You can argue all you want how he is a $20.6 million (not 21 million) pitcher, but that isn't what he is taking home. He is getting just over $10mill per season, and considering his numbers for last year I would take that contract.

I dont even know what that is supposed to mean. you would "take that"? The fact is that you and your sox DO have to pay it, whether you think that money "counts" makes no difference, the red sox still have to pay it. I guess you think that the red sox dont have to "take that" or "pay that" but the reality is that they do have to take that, and pay that much.

Here is an article about the potential for revenue from japan. No one knows how much matsui has helped out the indians,

i assume you are talking about hideki and not kaz?

or ichiro has helped the mariners. I do know that the yanks grossly overpaid matsui in his last contract.

I dont get this at all. Matsui produces year in and year out. he deserves the money a lot more than matsuzaka.

last i checked dice k won 15 games last year.

last i checked, so did paul byrd

the fact that no one shows up to games..they won 2 world series, you would expect an uptick in attendance...and still there wasn't much of an uptake...the stadium has been empty for years...I don't live in florida and my time is worth to much to research it.

Each time they won a world series, they had a fire sale immediately afterwards. They traded off all their stars and had a dismal season the following year. The pathetic attendence after winning the WS was totally justified both times. But they dont draw when they were winning either.

Is it possible, without a doubt. Is he a great talent, yes. Will you get off his nuts? You stated that the marlins won't have a player of his talent again. Hanley ramirez is putting up similiar # 's to the first 2 years of cabera carrer. I guess he isn't a once every 20 year type of player after all.

hanley didnt do it at 20 years old. The point about cabrera is that he did it at such a young age.

IMO the key to small/mid market teams sucess is the scouting/development dept.

IMO its key for any teams' success to scout and have good drafts and minor league systems.

The rays got a young stud when they picked up kazmir for zambrano. While the rays IMO won't win the east this year. They could compete for 3rd and cause problems for several teams. They have a payroll of what 45mill or so.

Ive said that for the past 4 years, that the rays could contend. The rays front office doesnt know what the hell they are doing. They called up bj upton in 2004 and make him eligible for free agency far too early. They finally seemed to have learned and are keeping evan longoria in the minors until may but i digress.

The clevand indians got good talent in grady sizemore and cliff lee in the colon deal to montreal. I also believe they spun one of the other players they got in the deal for a draft pick that netted them another contributor to the current roster.

Omar minaya has made several dozen idiot trades like that over the years(he was the expos GM at the time)

1. The florida marlins should be contracted (won't happen), move to a new stadium (in or out of florida), and come under new ownership. They have dumped a ton on talent the past couple of years. IMO, they aren't far from competing for a Wild Card spot.

Their offense took a small hit last year when they lost cabrera. also their bullpen is a mess. Their defense is OK and their starting rotation isnt *that* bad. They will be lucky to win 60 games this year. I have no idea about next year.

And as for contraction, you would have to contract 4 teams for it to work, there are 16 teams in the NL, and 14 in the AL, you need an even number of teams in each league so everyone can play a game every night.

I love contraction tho.

2. miguel caberra is not a once in a 20 year player. Yes he did it very young, but helping your club at such a young age to win the world series does not reflect on getting into the hall of fame.

the only position players that played so good at such a young age(20) are griffey and arod. So yeah, that only happens maybe 2 or 3 times every 30 years. Hell, they may be the only players to come up at age 20 and be allstars in the past 50 years. I havent been alive that long so i cant say for sure, but it is almost unheard of.

Cameron maybin may get called up and shut my mouth about all of this- he is only 21. At least he is old enough to drink

Getting into the Hall of Fame requires great numbers for a long period of time. At 24 or so ken griffey looked to be a lock, and injuries slowed him down.

Griffey JR is an absolute lock. Hell, he could have retired 7 years ago and still be a lock.

career numbers:
.290 BA .926 OPS 593 homers and 10 gold gloves and 2 MVP awards, and he was a member of the all century team to boot.

4. I don't even know why you are all over everything I say.

you say that "matsuzaka is above average, he won 15 games!" Then you say you dont like paul byrd(who also won 15 games). its ignorant shit like that.

You say that you dont count the 103 million dollars the sox paid to get matsuzaka, half of it was a signing bonus so it doesnt count. its a long term investment. And that you will take matsuzaka for 53 million dollars because you dont want to count the other 50 million dollars.

And that matsuzaka is a better pitcher than aj burnett

And that the twins and a's were contenders with "very small" payrolls when in reality they werent that small at all.

and the marlins will be contenders, as apparently they are a brilliant organization that can win despite having a small payroll(they dont) and will be contenders again in the next few years.

All of that is pure garbage.
What we should be talking about is that Matsuzaka cant pitch effectively with runners on base and until he can do that, then he is not a good mlb pitcher, and probably not an average mlb pitcher.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='dafoomie']The Sox were heavily scouting in Japan well before the team was even sold to this ownership group, Tomo Ohka was given to the Red Sox as a gift from Yokohama in 98.

But thats not the point at all. Teams have been slow to fully exploit the Japanese market as the Sox have begun doing. There are other teams out there, but two or three teams is not "the pack". Most teams still are not investing the time and money.[/QUOTE]

the mets got kaz matsui, and the cubs have fukodome, the chisox had shingo takatsu. the mets and giants used Tsuyoshi Shinjo, tho he pretty much sucked.

I just want to see some idiot owner call a japanese player a "FAT IN' TOAD" like steinbrenner

 

[dracula]

this discussion really deserves a second post

Ohh so cabrera helped a team with the world series at 20 and that identifies him as a future hall of famer...He has similiar # to several mlb players. He is going to need another 7 or so years of similiar # and most likely will need to get 35 homers a year for him to make the hall.

I never said he was a lock. I said he was hall of fame caliber at a very young age. and he was

There are only maybe 6 or 7 active players in mlb that i would consider HOF worthy if they retired TODAY.

locks(if they retired today)
pedro, griffey, arod, randy johnson, maddux, smoltz

MAYBE now, or maybe in a few years.

vlad, pujols, jeter, cabrera, thome, manny, papi, kent, frank Thomas, ichiro, glavine, smoltz, mo rivera, sheffield, hoffman, and probably a few others- tejada maybe johan santana, pudge or teixeira. if garret anderson gets 3000 hits he would get in(he has 2208 right now)

I have a hard time envisioning ALL of these players getting in, they are competing against each other in an era with loads of offense. If i had to pick from this lot, i would say jeter, kent, vlad, pujols, smoltz and cabrera have the best shot.

Rivera, hoffman, glavine and kent would probably get in if they retired today, I dont know if they should or not.

If you want to add andruw jones, he will have to get in line behind ALL of these players.
here are andruw jones career numbers: .265 average .838 OPS and 368 homers.

Andruw jones is no HOF. but he does play some good defense. the 10 gold gloves certainly help his case. Hell ozzie smith got in for his defense and he won 12 GG as a ss. If he keeps winning gold gloves it may be difficult to keep andruw jones out. But again, there are too many good position players ahead of him, he probably never gets in. Ditto for omar vizquel(11 gold gloves as a ss)

I could think of a few others that are WAY to young to tell.
mauer, wright, reyes, hanley, upton, but really they are all WAY too young

people want to say that hoffman and rivera will get in with no problem. Its almost impossible for relievers to get into the HOF. There are 4 relievers in the HOF so far: hoyt wilhelm, bruce sutter, dennis eckersly, and rolly fingers. They all played in a different era. Today closers usually come into the game in the 9th inning with no runners on base.

in the 70s and 80s it was routine for a reliever to come into the game in the 8th or even 7th inning with runners on base and keep a 1 run lead and not let the other team score any of those inherited runners . Hoffman and rivera(and essentially all of todays closers) are not firemen in that sense. But they may get in anyways. It took sutter forever to get in, and he was more worthy. Goose gossage is more HOF worthy than rivera and hoffman and he hasnt got in. its possible none of those 3 get in.

Now feel free to commense disagreeing with this. If players like david cone and jim rice and goose gossage are borderline and may not get in, then that will make it very difficult for many of these players to get in.

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='dracula']this discussion really deserves a second post




I never said he was a lock. I said he was hall of fame caliber at a very young age. and he was

There are only maybe 6 or 7 active players in mlb that i would consider HOF worthy if they retired TODAY.

locks(if they retired today)
pedro, griffey, arod, randy johnson, maddux, smoltz

MAYBE now, or maybe in a few years.

vlad, pujols, jeter, cabrera, thome, manny, papi, kent, frank Thomas, ichiro, glavine, smoltz, mo rivera, sheffield, hoffman, and probably a few others- tejada maybe johan santana, pudge or teixeira. if garret anderson gets 3000 hits he would get in(he has 2208 right now)

I have a hard time envisioning ALL of these players getting in, they are competing against each other in an era with loads of offense. If i had to pick from this lot, i would say jeter, kent, vlad, pujols, smoltz and cabrera have the best shot.

Rivera, hoffman, glavine and kent would probably get in if they retired today, I dont know if they should or not.

If you want to add andruw jones, he will have to get in line behind ALL of these players.
here are andruw jones career numbers: .265 average .838 OPS and 368 homers.

Andruw jones is no HOF. but he does play some good defense. the 10 gold gloves certainly help his case. Hell ozzie smith got in for his defense and he won 12 GG as a ss. If he keeps winning gold gloves it may be difficult to keep andruw jones out. But again, there are too many good position players ahead of him, he probably never gets in. Ditto for omar vizquel(11 gold gloves as a ss)

I could think of a few others that are WAY to young to tell.
mauer, wright, reyes, hanley, upton, but really they are all WAY too young

people want to say that hoffman and rivera will get in with no problem. Its almost impossible for relievers to get into the HOF. There are 4 relievers in the HOF so far: hoyt wilhelm, bruce sutter, dennis eckersly, and rolly fingers. They all played in a different era. Today closers usually come into the game in the 9th inning with no runners on base.

in the 70s and 80s it was routine for a reliever to come into the game in the 8th or even 7th inning with runners on base and keep a 1 run lead and not let the other team score any of those inherited runners . Hoffman and rivera(and essentially all of todays closers) are not firemen in that sense. But they may get in anyways. It took sutter forever to get in, and he was more worthy. Goose gossage is more HOF worthy than rivera and hoffman and he hasnt got in. its possible none of those 3 get in.

Now feel free to commense disagreeing with this. If players like david cone and jim rice and goose gossage are borderline and may not get in, then that will make it very difficult for many of these players to get in.[/QUOTE]

I just want to rip this apart six ways from Sunday.

Glavine and Smoltz are first-ballot HOFs, today. Andruw Jones isn't, but a couple more years will get the offensive numbers up. There's no reason not to believe he won't hit 500 HR. He's also the best defensive outfielder EVER. I'll take Peter Gammons' thoughts on the subject over yours.

Chipper Jones is also a HOFer, today. You probably missed Gammons' piece about him on the Sunday opener, talking about how he is second only to Schmidt in most offensive categories for 3B, and I believe he is the only switch-hitter in history to have a .300 avg and 300HR, and the second highest career average for switch-hitters.

Gossage is in the HOF, he's the only one to be enshrined this year. Hoffman is a HOF, probably Rivera as well. Greg Maddux is a HOFer right now. Manny is a HOFer right now. Bonds is a HOF, unless he gets kept out for the tax evasion (he was a HOF before he juiced).

Every time you post, I just stop and say wow.

 

[integralsmatic]

Big Shocker of the week. The Royals took out the Tigers in a 3 game sweep.

 

[vrs1650]

[quote name='dafoomie']I don't think you can judge Matsuzaka based on his rookie year, the Sox expected there would be an adjustment period for a year or two. Josh Beckett took an entire season to adjust from the NL. Plus, a couple days after a 2 hit/9 strikeout start is probably the wrong time to say he's a bust.

He did open some opportunities in Japan, some revenue streams, though that has been overstated a little. The larger thing he's done is open the Sox to Japanese players the way Pedro did for Dominicans. Japan is still a largely untapped market for major league talent, and the Sox are ahead of the pack as far as scouting and building relationships with the local teams.[/quote]

What how can the SOX be ahead of the pack, I mean geez, the Red Sox sign Dice-K in 07. That's how many years after the Dodgers signed Nomo. 12. Plus you have Ichiro with the Mariners and many other teams that have signed Major League talent from Japan before Dice-K. I mean the Mets have had 8 Japanese players on their roster before the Red Sox signed Dice-K. I don't think the Red Sox are "trailblazers" when it comes to signing, scouting or building relationships with Japanese teams.

 

[dafoomie]

[quote name='vrs1650']What how can the SOX be ahead of the pack, I mean geez, the Red Sox sign Dice-K in 07. That's how many years after the Dodgers signed Nomo. 12. Plus you have Ichiro with the Mariners and many other teams that have signed Major League talent from Japan before Dice-K. I mean the Mets have had 8 Japanese players on their roster before the Red Sox signed Dice-K. I don't think the Red Sox are "trailblazers" when it comes to signing, scouting or building relationships with Japanese teams.[/QUOTE]
The Sox were heavily scouting in Japan well before the team was even sold to this ownership group, Tomo Ohka was given to the Red Sox as a gift from Yokohama in 98.

But thats not the point at all. Teams have been slow to fully exploit the Japanese market as the Sox have begun doing. There are other teams out there, but two or three teams is not "the pack". Most teams still are not investing the time and money.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='ryanbph']

Ohh now a 15 game winner that had a shit load of adjustments to make is an avg mlb pitcher at a stretch. [/quote]

piling up wins is easy with lots of run support. That doesnt make him an average pitcher.

Fools on here keep saying, "the red sox didnt actually have to pay the $50 million dollar signing bonus because it isnt a part of the luxury tax! So it doesnt count!. And since they didnt have to pay teh $50 million dollars, that means matsuzaka is a bargain!"

wake up, the sox had to pay the $50 million. There isnt any long term investment, that money is gone. Just because it doesnt show up on the luxury tax doesnt mean they some how got out of paying the $50 million.

Hey I guess you want to ignore the fact he had his whole world turn upside down

Ichiro, hideki, and nomo all were stars immediately when coming into the USA, and the sox are paid out a LOT more to get matsuzaka than the yankees, mariners and dodgers paid out. For $103 million, he sure as shit better play like an allstar, not a 4.40 ERA

and had to adjust to a new working enviroment, new routines, new traditions, a new language and still win 15 games with a 4.4 era and a shitload of K's. I would take his $10 plus mill contract over pavano's, clements, gil meches etc

those are all bad contracts, yes. And here you go again, you would take the $10 million per year for matsuzaka, but you dont want to take the $50 million signing bonus. Whether or not you want to take it, boston paid the 103 million

...I guess you never heard the saying baseball is 90% mental, and the other half is physical. Is dice K a #1 pitcher on a contending team. No he hasn't shown that yet.

yes of course deception is important to a pitcher. matsuzaka's biggest problem wasnt any of the things you mentioned, he cant pitch as well coming out of the stretch. When runners are on base, his control suffers. If he cant get over that, he wont be effective in MLB.

I don't even know if he has adjusted enough to have him be a legit # 2. But he has had 1 season with all the adjustments to go thru. I am willing to give him a shot. When I think of avg to below avg pitchers, I look at paul byrd,

paul byrd won 15 games last year, just like matsuzaka. Matsuzaka has better peripherals, but you said that matsuzaka is good because of the 15 wins. I think they are both below average pitchers. And matsuzaka is costing the red sox about $90 million more. I dont think much of byrd, but by your definition he is good.

jared westbrook, aj burnett and the likes.

agreed about JAKE westbrook, but burnett is money. He is a far superior pitcher than matsuzaka, it isnt even close:

2007 burnett: 3.75 ERA 1.19 whip .214 batting average against 176Ks
2007 dice k: 4.40 ERA 1.32 Whip .246 bAA 201 Ks

What are you talking about?

I would take $10 ++ million contract we are PAYING DICE K over any of them.

again, you completely ignore that the red sox had to pay the enormous signing bonus to the seibu lions. You keep saying, that doesnt count! and imply the red sox somehow avoiding paying the $50 million signing bonus

Dontrelle willis is making roughly $4mill less, and I would take dice k over him as well. If you don't think so, we are going to have to agree to disagree

i dont really like either of them

I just don't agree with everything that you spout..doesn't mean I am right or wrong.

you say that it is a stretch to call a 15 game winner a below average pitcher. Then you say paul byrd a below average pitcher. Which is it?

You say burnett isnt as good as matsuzaka, but burnett squashes him. you say the a's and twins were contenders with "very small(your exact words) payroll", but it really wasnt small at all.

I was wrong about the marlins payroll, and you have been on my nuts about everything else that I have said. It is a fact that in MLB luxurary tax, that the $50 million posting fee doesn't count to the salary. You can argue all you want how he is a $20.6 million (not 21 million) pitcher, but that isn't what he is taking home. He is getting just over $10mill per season, and considering his numbers for last year I would take that contract.

I dont even know what that is supposed to mean. you would "take that"? The fact is that you and your sox DO have to pay it, whether you think that money "counts" makes no difference, the red sox still have to pay it. I guess you think that the red sox dont have to "take that" or "pay that" but the reality is that they do have to take that, and pay that much.

Here is an article about the potential for revenue from japan. No one knows how much matsui has helped out the indians,

i assume you are talking about hideki and not kaz?

or ichiro has helped the mariners. I do know that the yanks grossly overpaid matsui in his last contract.

I dont get this at all. Matsui produces year in and year out. he deserves the money a lot more than matsuzaka.

last i checked dice k won 15 games last year.

last i checked, so did paul byrd

the fact that no one shows up to games..they won 2 world series, you would expect an uptick in attendance...and still there wasn't much of an uptake...the stadium has been empty for years...I don't live in florida and my time is worth to much to research it.

Each time they won a world series, they had a fire sale immediately afterwards. They traded off all their stars and had a dismal season the following year. The pathetic attendence after winning the WS was totally justified both times. But they dont draw when they were winning either.

Is it possible, without a doubt. Is he a great talent, yes. Will you get off his nuts? You stated that the marlins won't have a player of his talent again. Hanley ramirez is putting up similiar # 's to the first 2 years of cabera carrer. I guess he isn't a once every 20 year type of player after all.

hanley didnt do it at 20 years old. The point about cabrera is that he did it at such a young age.

IMO the key to small/mid market teams sucess is the scouting/development dept.

IMO its key for any teams' success to scout and have good drafts and minor league systems.

The rays got a young stud when they picked up kazmir for zambrano. While the rays IMO won't win the east this year. They could compete for 3rd and cause problems for several teams. They have a payroll of what 45mill or so.

Ive said that for the past 4 years, that the rays could contend. The rays front office doesnt know what the hell they are doing. They called up bj upton in 2004 and make him eligible for free agency far too early. They finally seemed to have learned and are keeping evan longoria in the minors until may but i digress.

The clevand indians got good talent in grady sizemore and cliff lee in the colon deal to montreal. I also believe they spun one of the other players they got in the deal for a draft pick that netted them another contributor to the current roster.

Omar minaya has made several dozen idiot trades like that over the years(he was the expos GM at the time)

1. The florida marlins should be contracted (won't happen), move to a new stadium (in or out of florida), and come under new ownership. They have dumped a ton on talent the past couple of years. IMO, they aren't far from competing for a Wild Card spot.

Their offense took a small hit last year when they lost cabrera. also their bullpen is a mess. Their defense is OK and their starting rotation isnt *that* bad. They will be lucky to win 60 games this year. I have no idea about next year.

And as for contraction, you would have to contract 4 teams for it to work, there are 16 teams in the NL, and 14 in the AL, you need an even number of teams in each league so everyone can play a game every night.

I love contraction tho.

2. miguel caberra is not a once in a 20 year player. Yes he did it very young, but helping your club at such a young age to win the world series does not reflect on getting into the hall of fame.

the only position players that played so good at such a young age(20) are griffey and arod. So yeah, that only happens maybe 2 or 3 times every 30 years. Hell, they may be the only players to come up at age 20 and be allstars in the past 50 years. I havent been alive that long so i cant say for sure, but it is almost unheard of.

Cameron maybin may get called up and shut my mouth about all of this- he is only 21. At least he is old enough to drink

Getting into the Hall of Fame requires great numbers for a long period of time. At 24 or so ken griffey looked to be a lock, and injuries slowed him down.

Griffey JR is an absolute lock. Hell, he could have retired 7 years ago and still be a lock.

career numbers:
.290 BA .926 OPS 593 homers and 10 gold gloves and 2 MVP awards, and he was a member of the all century team to boot.

4. I don't even know why you are all over everything I say.

you say that "matsuzaka is above average, he won 15 games!" Then you say you dont like paul byrd(who also won 15 games). its ignorant shit like that.

You say that you dont count the 103 million dollars the sox paid to get matsuzaka, half of it was a signing bonus so it doesnt count. its a long term investment. And that you will take matsuzaka for 53 million dollars because you dont want to count the other 50 million dollars.

And that matsuzaka is a better pitcher than aj burnett

And that the twins and a's were contenders with "very small" payrolls when in reality they werent that small at all.

and the marlins will be contenders, as apparently they are a brilliant organization that can win despite having a small payroll(they dont) and will be contenders again in the next few years.

All of that is pure garbage.
What we should be talking about is that Matsuzaka cant pitch effectively with runners on base and until he can do that, then he is not a good mlb pitcher, and probably not an average mlb pitcher.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='dafoomie']The Sox were heavily scouting in Japan well before the team was even sold to this ownership group, Tomo Ohka was given to the Red Sox as a gift from Yokohama in 98.

But thats not the point at all. Teams have been slow to fully exploit the Japanese market as the Sox have begun doing. There are other teams out there, but two or three teams is not "the pack". Most teams still are not investing the time and money.[/QUOTE]

the mets got kaz matsui, and the cubs have fukodome, the chisox had shingo takatsu. the mets and giants used Tsuyoshi Shinjo, tho he pretty much sucked.

I just want to see some idiot owner call a japanese player a "FAT IN' TOAD" like steinbrenner

 

[dracula]

this discussion really deserves a second post

Ohh so cabrera helped a team with the world series at 20 and that identifies him as a future hall of famer...He has similiar # to several mlb players. He is going to need another 7 or so years of similiar # and most likely will need to get 35 homers a year for him to make the hall.

I never said he was a lock. I said he was hall of fame caliber at a very young age. and he was

There are only maybe 6 or 7 active players in mlb that i would consider HOF worthy if they retired TODAY.

locks(if they retired today)
pedro, griffey, arod, randy johnson, maddux, smoltz

MAYBE now, or maybe in a few years.

vlad, pujols, jeter, cabrera, thome, manny, papi, kent, frank Thomas, ichiro, glavine, smoltz, mo rivera, sheffield, hoffman, and probably a few others- tejada maybe johan santana, pudge or teixeira. if garret anderson gets 3000 hits he would get in(he has 2208 right now)

I have a hard time envisioning ALL of these players getting in, they are competing against each other in an era with loads of offense. If i had to pick from this lot, i would say jeter, kent, vlad, pujols, smoltz and cabrera have the best shot.

Rivera, hoffman, glavine and kent would probably get in if they retired today, I dont know if they should or not.

If you want to add andruw jones, he will have to get in line behind ALL of these players.
here are andruw jones career numbers: .265 average .838 OPS and 368 homers.

Andruw jones is no HOF. but he does play some good defense. the 10 gold gloves certainly help his case. Hell ozzie smith got in for his defense and he won 12 GG as a ss. If he keeps winning gold gloves it may be difficult to keep andruw jones out. But again, there are too many good position players ahead of him, he probably never gets in. Ditto for omar vizquel(11 gold gloves as a ss)

I could think of a few others that are WAY to young to tell.
mauer, wright, reyes, hanley, upton, but really they are all WAY too young

people want to say that hoffman and rivera will get in with no problem. Its almost impossible for relievers to get into the HOF. There are 4 relievers in the HOF so far: hoyt wilhelm, bruce sutter, dennis eckersly, and rolly fingers. They all played in a different era. Today closers usually come into the game in the 9th inning with no runners on base.

in the 70s and 80s it was routine for a reliever to come into the game in the 8th or even 7th inning with runners on base and keep a 1 run lead and not let the other team score any of those inherited runners . Hoffman and rivera(and essentially all of todays closers) are not firemen in that sense. But they may get in anyways. It took sutter forever to get in, and he was more worthy. Goose gossage is more HOF worthy than rivera and hoffman and he hasnt got in. its possible none of those 3 get in.

Now feel free to commense disagreeing with this. If players like david cone and jim rice and goose gossage are borderline and may not get in, then that will make it very difficult for many of these players to get in.

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='dracula']this discussion really deserves a second post




I never said he was a lock. I said he was hall of fame caliber at a very young age. and he was

There are only maybe 6 or 7 active players in mlb that i would consider HOF worthy if they retired TODAY.

locks(if they retired today)
pedro, griffey, arod, randy johnson, maddux, smoltz

MAYBE now, or maybe in a few years.

vlad, pujols, jeter, cabrera, thome, manny, papi, kent, frank Thomas, ichiro, glavine, smoltz, mo rivera, sheffield, hoffman, and probably a few others- tejada maybe johan santana, pudge or teixeira. if garret anderson gets 3000 hits he would get in(he has 2208 right now)

I have a hard time envisioning ALL of these players getting in, they are competing against each other in an era with loads of offense. If i had to pick from this lot, i would say jeter, kent, vlad, pujols, smoltz and cabrera have the best shot.

Rivera, hoffman, glavine and kent would probably get in if they retired today, I dont know if they should or not.

If you want to add andruw jones, he will have to get in line behind ALL of these players.
here are andruw jones career numbers: .265 average .838 OPS and 368 homers.

Andruw jones is no HOF. but he does play some good defense. the 10 gold gloves certainly help his case. Hell ozzie smith got in for his defense and he won 12 GG as a ss. If he keeps winning gold gloves it may be difficult to keep andruw jones out. But again, there are too many good position players ahead of him, he probably never gets in. Ditto for omar vizquel(11 gold gloves as a ss)

I could think of a few others that are WAY to young to tell.
mauer, wright, reyes, hanley, upton, but really they are all WAY too young

people want to say that hoffman and rivera will get in with no problem. Its almost impossible for relievers to get into the HOF. There are 4 relievers in the HOF so far: hoyt wilhelm, bruce sutter, dennis eckersly, and rolly fingers. They all played in a different era. Today closers usually come into the game in the 9th inning with no runners on base.

in the 70s and 80s it was routine for a reliever to come into the game in the 8th or even 7th inning with runners on base and keep a 1 run lead and not let the other team score any of those inherited runners . Hoffman and rivera(and essentially all of todays closers) are not firemen in that sense. But they may get in anyways. It took sutter forever to get in, and he was more worthy. Goose gossage is more HOF worthy than rivera and hoffman and he hasnt got in. its possible none of those 3 get in.

Now feel free to commense disagreeing with this. If players like david cone and jim rice and goose gossage are borderline and may not get in, then that will make it very difficult for many of these players to get in.[/QUOTE]

I just want to rip this apart six ways from Sunday.

Glavine and Smoltz are first-ballot HOFs, today. Andruw Jones isn't, but a couple more years will get the offensive numbers up. There's no reason not to believe he won't hit 500 HR. He's also the best defensive outfielder EVER. I'll take Peter Gammons' thoughts on the subject over yours.

Chipper Jones is also a HOFer, today. You probably missed Gammons' piece about him on the Sunday opener, talking about how he is second only to Schmidt in most offensive categories for 3B, and I believe he is the only switch-hitter in history to have a .300 avg and 300HR, and the second highest career average for switch-hitters.

Gossage is in the HOF, he's the only one to be enshrined this year. Hoffman is a HOF, probably Rivera as well. Greg Maddux is a HOFer right now. Manny is a HOFer right now. Bonds is a HOF, unless he gets kept out for the tax evasion (he was a HOF before he juiced).

Every time you post, I just stop and say wow.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='CocheseUGA']I just want to rip this apart six ways from Sunday.

Glavine and Smoltz are first-ballot HOFs, today.[/quote]

smoltz probably is. Glavine will get in, but probably not on the first ballot.

Andruw Jones isn't, but a couple more years will get the offensive numbers up. There's no reason not to believe he won't hit 500 HR.

No reason? check his 2007 numbers: .222/26/724. and plenty of players from this era will hit 500 homers and not get into the HOF.

He's also the best defensive outfielder EVER. I'll take Peter Gammons' thoughts on the subject over yours.

gammons is a crazy old coot. He is right at least half the time.

Chipper Jones is also a HOFer, today. You probably missed Gammons' piece about him on the Sunday opener, talking about how he is second only to Schmidt in most offensive categories for 3B, and I believe he is the only switch-hitter in history to have a .300 avg and 300HR, and the second highest career average for switch-hitters.

I knew there was someone I forgot. Yes chipper gets in. WE could probably also talk about pudge and piazza. But apparently you only want to talk about atlanta braves players.

Gossage is in the HOF, he's the only one to be enshrined this year.

FINALLY

Hoffman is a HOF, probably Rivera as well.

You seem to be passing out hof enshrinements like candy. Does Lee smith get in? he has more saves than rivera and jones. rivera did really well in the postseason, so he probably has the best shot of these 3.

Greg Maddux is a HOFer right now.

agreed. And i said as much

Manny is a HOFer right now.

bullshit. He plays in an era loaded with offense. he will have to play at a high level for more years. If you want to say he is a lock, then you have to put in thome and frank thomas.

Bonds is a HOF, unless he gets kept out for the tax evasion (he was a HOF before he juiced).

I said ACTIVE players. Bonds is no longer in MLB. And frankly, given the stink bonds left on the game, that might be enough for some voters to vote "no." a lot of the HOF voting is politics.

You forgot clemens if you want to count players recently out of baseball. Or are you saying that clemens wont get in because of his HGH and that is why you dont mention him(and pudge for that matter)? Ah screw it, if they dont play for the braves, they probably arent worth talking about evidently.

All of this is why this is a discussion worth having.

Every time you post, I just stop and say wow.

And when you say things like "manny has had a HOF career" and Andruw jones on defensve is the "BEsT OUTFIELDER EVAR", I say "wow" as well.

Ive never seen willy mays play in person, but he looked pretty good in the clips ive seen.

Do you think omar vizquel is HOF? he is at least as good defensively as jones and plays as a SS.

HOF is for only the very top players of each generation. they only enshrine one or 2 players per year, so there is no IN way that ALL of these guy get in.

If you think they are ALL getting in, you are dellusional. Apparently you have some sort of mancrush on andruw jones, and will say "there is no reason to think he will have another year like 2007". there is also no reason to think he WONT have another few years like 2007. He wasnt injured in 2007..

Glavine will probably get in but i think he is borderline.
3.50 ERA 1.31 WHIP .257 Batting average against.

Those numbers do not scream hall of fame to me. In fact, IF he gets in he would have one of the worst if not the worst ERA and WHIP of any HOF pitcher.

here are some hall of fame numbers:

pedro: 2.81 ERA 1.03 WHIP .210 Batting average against
unit: 3.22/1.16/.218
clemens: 3.12/1.17/
maddux: 3.11/1.14/,249

Those guys get in.

these do not get in
glavine: 3.50/1.31/.257
schilling 3.46/1.14/.243

Again, you seem to think that despite his borderline numbers, glavine should get in? Because he played for the braves? The 300 wins are nice, but shouldnt be an automatic entry into the HOF. same as 500 homers, mcguire, sosa, and palmeiro all have 500 homers and none will get in.

The wins are counting stats, like the guy above you said, paul byrd got 15 wins last year, that doesnt mean he is a good or even an average pitcher(i am NOT saying glavine is another byrd, just saying that wins can be piled up when a pitcher gets lots of run support).

Phil neikro got in, barely, with slightly better numbers than glavine(better ERA, better WHIP, more wins).

that is why this discussion is worth having.

Glavine shouldnt get in and ditto for curt schilling, david wells and jamie moyer. The HOF is for only the absolute greatest players of that particular generation. And that means glavine, frank thomas, jim thome, manny ramirez, david ortiz, while they are all great players, they shouldnt get in.

I am guessing Piazza and pudge get in, if pudge fails any drug tests for steroids or hgh then he doesnt get in. And neither of us mentioned clemens either. he and tejada are alleged drug cheats.

its funny, those players are well liked, compared to guys like bonds and sosa and palmeiro, that may factor into their enshrinement in some way

 

[ryanbph]

hideki matsui when he was extended by the yanks a couple of years back was grossly overpaid for the type of player that he is. He doesn't have great range in the OF, and he is what I would hope for in the least for a contending teams OF player. The yanks weren't competing with anyone, and paid him a shitload more then other available free agents that offseason that put up those numbers. In todays dollar, it looks like a deal, but when they did it 2 or 3 years ago I was not. Saying that contract at that time was a good, is like saying the 5 year 15 mill deal that the sox gave jd drew was a good signing. They both put up similiar numbers...drews career ba is about .010 points lower. Drew homer per AB ratio is close to 21 abs...while matsui is roughly 25 ab's. I rounded both up, matsui's was rounded up roughly .01 higher...Neither of those contracts were good signings...and it just drove the market up for slightly above avg OF. Don't give me that bs that matsui always produces...he is a low .290 hitter with about 20 dingers in him on avg. Brian Giles got $10 mill a year that offseason...puts up similiar numbers as he does career wise.

 

[dafoomie]

Immediate dominance was never a realistic expectation for Matsuzaka, guys who come in and dominate in their first year are by far the exception and not the rule.

Matsuzaka had a better 1st year in the majors (15-12, 4.40 ERA) than Josh Beckett's 1st year in the AL (16-11, 5.01 ERA).

Matsuzaka is trending upwards while a guy like Barry Zito is declining. Matsuzaka was the wiser signing, Zito is being paid for past performance while Matsuzaka is being paid for future performance.

He's probably the best starting pitcher to reach free agency since Bartolo Colon, and Colon only gave the Angels one good year out of 4. Seriously, look at starting pitchers to hit free agency in the last 10 years, the vast majority of the high profile players have been disappointing.