When did secondary market prices for NES get so out of hand?

[quote name='spmahn']First off this isn't another post bitching about the lack of a stead supply of cheap games, it's a post questioning the market forces that may be artificially inflating secondary market prices.

Secondly, while supply has decreased, prices have steadily been rising, but with no discernable proof that there is any real increased demand. The worst thing eBay (and that's a long list) ever did was allow people to list items for free, and only pay a fee if it sells. The end result of this is that while formerly people would list their items as an auction , and the market would determine the price, now what you see is an endless supply of Buy it Now listings that are almost all resellers listing items at inflated prices hoping to find a naive buyer. Since the seller isn't paying unless it sells, there's no incentive for them not to do this. [/QUOTE]
I'm a small time "reseller troll" and here are some random thoughts on this:

1. I don't collude with anyone. I look at the completed ebay listings which tells me what people are willing to pay for a given item. I only list based on that.

2. If prices are rising to me that means either demand has increased and/or supply has decreased. The opposite is true if prices are falling.

3. I regularly drop/raise prices of my Buy It Now listings (and I only do BIN listings). If an item just sits there, isn't getting views or watchers and such...the price will drop until that changes. Period. So while I can set the initial price I as a seller want, that doesn't mean anything in reality. I can obviously only sell something for what people are willing to pay.

Likewise if I have say 10 of something and they are selling well, guess what? The price is going to increase when I notice. Again though it can only go up to what others are willing to pay if I want to sell it. There have been many instances where I sold an item and the demand increased quite a bit and I wished I had listed it for more than I did.

Now, to directly answer the quoted section of your post. Is what you're saying (artificial price fixing) possible? Sure, but does it happen? Very rarely from my experience. I have had a case where someone has messaged me asking me not to sell item X for such a low price. In that case I ignored it and promptly sold the item, but I could have agreed and raised the price and it probably still would have sold. In that case I believe it was a rare item but there wasn't a huge demand for it.

The thing there is there was myself, and one other person with the item for sale. So in the real world where an item or service is hard to come by or rare or there's a monopoly between a couple companies or some similar situation sure I bet there is quite a bit of artificial pricing. On ebay though not so much unless it's a case like I said.

The closest thing to artificial prices I can think of is this case: Item X is limited and is selling well for say $50. I as a seller know that it's limited and don't like the lowish prices the item is selling for. As a reseller troll I am greedy and want more money. I buck the trend and list the item for $80 and it sells. In cases like this (and I fully believe there are cases like this) two people, the seller and the buyer, can basically dictate the future market and change the "value" of an item at least for a short period. Now listings after that will lean much closer to that $80 mark since other sellers will see that is what they can get for it. Again though that's the seller and the buyer, not just the seller. There are probably pretty simple ways to abuse this to attempt to single handedly dictate the entire market for an item, but I don't really see it happening.

I'm wondering if you have any specific examples you could tell me about? As in a specific game. Or is it just a general increase all around? In that case I would almost certainly believe it's just the market at work and with supply going nowhere but down prices inevitably will go up.
 
The prospect that a handful of people are controlling the market by putting up their games for high prices on eBay is hilarious.
 
Here's another example of something I could do right now to set prices (and as a reseller this is basically how I go about reselling stuff to make money). I don't know if people would consider this the same type of artificial pricing the OP is talking about or not but here goes:

The Witcher 2 Dark Edition which costs $100 comes with a pretty good art book. I checked ebay for the prices it's sold for. It hasn't. There is a single one for sale, though the price is ridiculous. It's being sold for more than the entire dark edition costs which will only work if the Dark Edition itself is very rare (which is a real possibility).

Now I could probably list that Art book myself and sell one for maybe $75. That is much more than it's worth to me (and most other people), but I would guess there are still a number of people out there on ebay who are willing to pay around that price for it right now.

In that case subsequent listings will probably be in that same price range. Now if only a single book is listed at a time, they would probably continue selling at that higher price point. As soon as 20 different people see this and have the same ideas however, it creates competition between sellers and prices will drop because of that and availability.

So again I can set an artificial price, but in the end the buyer has to agree that it's worth that price. If you don't agree with that price even though others do, well tough basically. I don't consider that buyer naive personally. I think they have the disposable income and are probably impatient, but I don't think that makes them naive. They know they're paying an inflated price.

And also in defense of some of the high prices, you have to take into account all the sellers fees and other costs. Just a quick example I can give pretty exact numbers on right now: Sold Xenoblade Chronicles for $57 but only actually got $45 after shipping and fees, $8 less than what I paid for the game.

So yes in that case the "artificial price" is a very small difference than the retail price but the point is that while resellers are profiting they aren't profiting as much as some people seem to think. Ebay also plays a part in pricing since they raise fees/take away seller benefits and such which pushes up prices.

A quick example of that: Ebay offered a % discount on seller fees to power sellers. They changed the terms of it recently and so I can no longer get that % discount on the fees I pay to ebay. I can either stop selling, make less, or raise prices.
 
[quote name='spmahn']Whatever boss, I give in, I'm through with you, your demonstrated inability to debate or act reasonably mature has caused me to reassess my argument (not really).[/QUOTE]

To be honest, you never really had an argument. You came in asking why prices have gone up and then blasted anyone that had a decent response that you weren't looking for. You're like a bad fifth grade teacher.
 
[quote name='depascal22']To be honest, you never really had an argument. You came in asking why prices have gone up and then blasted anyone that had a decent response that you weren't looking for. You're like a bad fifth grade teacher.[/QUOTE]


Don't forget, though, that spmahn started on CAG talking about how he/she/it loved flipping but bitched constantly about having to go to the post office. No amount of explaining about printing labels from your computer was enough to satisfy him/her/it.
 
Also just have to add for the record that Battletoads is worth 20 bucks. That game was awesome. Rash, Zitz & Pimple for life homeslice!

Back on topic I guess. Prices fluctuate due to renewed interest in older games, sequels being released, and just generally less around due to falling in collector's hands. In high school I new of only me and probably one other person who continued to collect NES, SNES, etc games. Then in college alot more people started to dig out their Nintendo 64's and Super Nintendos. Even now it is the same thing. I sold a N64 on C-list around Christmas with a bunch of games for like 100 bucks and the girl said she was giving it to her boyfriend.

I don't think the plastic carts are ever going to really go down much in price (except for the rare games that get re-released every 2 years on a different system), but eventually the market will just kind of dry up. Most of the games will be in the hands of collectors and sitting there.

I wonder what other people think on this. I think that PS2, Xbox, etc. will never be collectible like cart systems. Part of it I think is just that the nostalgia factor doesn't seem to be a big deal. The systems themselves are more prone to breaking and needing work. Finally people just don't seem to care about it as much. I may be wrong, but I just doubt people are going to be trying to complete their Xbox or PS2 collection is 5 or 10 years (though everyone should have Panzer Dragoon Orta and Otogi for Xbox).
 
It's also rather funny that all of this discussion is about selling with Battletoads BIN listing for $20, when even the auctions for a cart-only battletoads are ending between $11-15 plus shipping or $18-20 with free shipping.

It looks like the market has this one pretty much figured out.
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']Don't forget, though, that spmahn started on CAG talking about how he/she/it loved flipping but bitched constantly about having to go to the post office. No amount of explaining about printing labels from your computer was enough to satisfy him/her/it.[/QUOTE]

When did I bitch about going to the Post Office? I do hate going to the post office, since it's always understaffed and the lines are too long, and printing labels isn't an option for me all the time since I don't have a scale to accurately weigh items and don't sell enough of anything to make it worth buying one, but I don't ever remember complaining about this.
 
[quote name='confoosious']edit: I'll give it a whirl. (edited like 4 times for clarity)

Everyone is out for their own self interest. This in effect sets the market for goods. And makes it the most efficient market for goods. I've heard ebay described as the perfect marketplace and I tend to agree.

When a seller lists something on ebay, he doesn't care what other people are doing. He simply cares how much money HE is making on the transaction. This will affect the market one way or another. But all he cares about is his own needs. There's no collusion going on. (Will he use completed listings or current listings as a basis for his decision? Yes, if he's smart. But that's just a guideline for him. He will doing whatever is in his best interest.)

I can accept oil barons and real estate magnates getting together to set prices. I don't think old NES game sellers care. They just want some cash.

Benadryl is KILLING me right now and I need to turn in.[/QUOTE]

But people DO care about what others are doing. Generally a few popular high volume sellers set the price point by listing items at too high a price, and then others follow. Thus you end up with with a dozen listings like these


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chip-N-Dale...3993?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item231c523159

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NES-Chip-N-...9014?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item231b4345f6

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESCUE-RANG..._Games_Games&hash=item48414b92a0#ht_500wt_971

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chip-N-Dale...9779?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item256f85a643

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chip-N-Dale..._Games_Games&hash=item53ebbb5ca2#ht_913wt_956

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHIP-N-DALE...Games_Games&hash=item19c4c7570b#ht_1079wt_956

for a game that is really only worth this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHIP-N-DALE...9460?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item35bb162d44

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chip-N-Dale...Games_Games&hash=item3a72831812#ht_500wt_1182

There's also plenty of shill bidding that goes on from the higher priced sellers to give the appearance that the higher price is the correct one, which is turn causes more people to follow the higher price listings as a guide when determining prices.
 
All I'm seeing in this thread is a whole bunch of this: :cry::cry::-({|=:-({|=

Followed by a whole shitload of this: :speaktothehand::speaktothehand::argue::argue:

Which has caused me to do a lot of THIS: :rofl::rofl:

My opinion on it is actually the same as confoosious and mrspicytacoman. The market will bear what people are willing to pay. If they're willing to pay $20 for an old game while you're too cheap to and expect to get it for $5, then you're shit outta luck then aren't ya?

Either go into it expecting to pay more than you want or be prepared to be disappointed when you don't get your way and don't get the item(s) you want for the price you only wanna pay.
 
I just thought that this post was worth quoting here:

[quote name='spmahn']The thing I don't get about Target Hoarders is that 95% of that stuff got clearanced for a reason, that being that it's crap no one wants in the first place, let alone at full retail price. I only buy items to flip if I know I'm going to make at least $10 profit, and the clearance items at Target very rarely fit this category. It's just too much trouble having to list items on Amazon / eBay, pay the fees, purchase shipping supplies, get the item ready for shipping, and go to the post office to send it, to be worth the hassle.

The vast majority of items I flip are things I find at Goodwill that are worth more than they really should be like video games that have long since been re-released in some other format, but the originals are still worth money. There's nothing wrong with selling an item at whatever price the market is willing to pay for it. I'd much rather sell the game to someone who wants it at the price they're willing to pay for it, then to let some crack head buy it and pawn it for booze money, and around here that's the only other people shopping in Goodwill besides myself, the junkies and the shoplifters.[/QUOTE]

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8516097&highlight=post#post8516097
 
[quote name='Dokstarr']Also just have to add for the record that Battletoads is worth 20 bucks. That game was awesome. Rash, Zitz & Pimple for life homeslice!

Back on topic I guess. Prices fluctuate due to renewed interest in older games, sequels being released, and just generally less around due to falling in collector's hands. In high school I new of only me and probably one other person who continued to collect NES, SNES, etc games. Then in college alot more people started to dig out their Nintendo 64's and Super Nintendos. Even now it is the same thing. I sold a N64 on C-list around Christmas with a bunch of games for like 100 bucks and the girl said she was giving it to her boyfriend.

I don't think the plastic carts are ever going to really go down much in price (except for the rare games that get re-released every 2 years on a different system), but eventually the market will just kind of dry up. Most of the games will be in the hands of collectors and sitting there.

I wonder what other people think on this. I think that PS2, Xbox, etc. will never be collectible like cart systems. Part of it I think is just that the nostalgia factor doesn't seem to be a big deal. The systems themselves are more prone to breaking and needing work. Finally people just don't seem to care about it as much. I may be wrong, but I just doubt people are going to be trying to complete their Xbox or PS2 collection is 5 or 10 years (though everyone should have Panzer Dragoon Orta and Otogi for Xbox).[/QUOTE]

PS2 will become "nostalgic" when the kids who played them grow up into their 20's and 30's and suddenly have an urge to collect things from their childhood. We aren't there yet in terms of time so I can't comment yet.

I don't think PS2's are that bad in terms of breakage, I have a phat model that I purchased from a yard sale randomly about 2 years ago that is still going and I play DVD's in it often, and ones with big stickers on them from the library to boot, which is supposed to ruin DVD drives faster. Besides, there are enough PS2 consoles out there to last for many generations. The early models were pretty bad, but I assume most of those are already dead and gone now. There are still plenty of newer PS2's out there, I don't even think sony has stopped production on them yet. The Xbox is another story, most early models will be gone, but there should be enough slim's to last some time and the console is still being produced.

Though I am not sure if the children of today will become so that they want to get things from their childhood, many are so spoiled that all they care about is getting what is new so I don't know if its going to happen en masse like it has with the kids of the 80's generation. I have to wonder if the give your children whatever they want attitude most children are subjected to these days will carry into their adulthood so all they will be focused on is the shiny new Apple gadget and they will care less about the old PS2. Almost everyone I talk to in my age group (80's generation) has at least some form of nostalgia for the toys or video games they had as a kid, its hard to find a person who doesn't.

About the NES stuff, I am surprised the market for that stuff has not declined due to the popularity of HDTV's, older systems don't look very good on HDTV's so it becomes necessary to keep an old CRT TV for playing older games on. Common sense tells me that a lot of people are gonna sell their old systems because they don't wanna keep an extra, old heavy TV around. But I guess there are enough people who haven't upgraded to HDTV yet or who are willing to keep an extra CRT TV around just for old games.
 
Its not just you noticing spmahn, same topic is popping up on many of the retro boards.

Some reasons listed at various places:

- 25 year, peak nostalgia time reached for items. NES 1985-1994 = 2010-2019
- Modern Gaming overall has exploded, NES has many characters/1st appearances/concepts/publishers which are basis of todays games
- Trendy to have old games, no longer niche. Mainstream acceptance
- Recession periods draw people to collectibles as investments, other collectibles are experiencing the same "phenomena"
- Increased media coverage on old games and high priced sales
- Retrogaming turning into a business/investment instead of a hobby
- Resellers and quick profit takers buying up stock
- Higher starting priced listings/sales cause others to follow suit. F
- Fixed price listings now more common than auction based listings
- Perception is turned to frenzy as people who actually collect/play retro feel like they have to have items or they will inflate more, which in turn causes more immediate bidding on items needed and higher prices
- Game grading increases cost for good condition/new items, possible tricke down effect
- Buyers paying tons of $ for sealed items, possible trickle down effect
- Possible Shill bidding on select items to maintain a specific price level
- Ebay is not the market, only a slice
- Bunch more, blah blah blah...

saw this link on another board, average loose cart price has jumped ~50% since 2k8 - http://videogames.pricecharting.com/console/nes?sort-by=name
 
[quote name='spmahn']But people DO care about what others are doing. Generally a few popular high volume sellers set the price point by listing items at too high a price, and then others follow. Thus you end up with with a dozen listings like these


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chip-N-Dale...3993?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item231c523159

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NES-Chip-N-...9014?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item231b4345f6

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESCUE-RANG..._Games_Games&hash=item48414b92a0#ht_500wt_971

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chip-N-Dale...9779?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item256f85a643

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chip-N-Dale..._Games_Games&hash=item53ebbb5ca2#ht_913wt_956

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHIP-N-DALE...Games_Games&hash=item19c4c7570b#ht_1079wt_956

for a game that is really only worth this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHIP-N-DALE...9460?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item35bb162d44

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chip-N-Dale...Games_Games&hash=item3a72831812#ht_500wt_1182

There's also plenty of shill bidding that goes on from the higher priced sellers to give the appearance that the higher price is the correct one, which is turn causes more people to follow the higher price listings as a guide when determining prices.[/QUOTE]

Jesus Christ!

First off, that is YOUR opinion of what it's worth, I certainly don't share it.

Secondly, putting a game up for $3 on eBay isn't even worth the time. After fees and shipping, you end up LOSING money.

Third off, are you seriously bitching over 10 dollars?

Fourth, you just sat there and linked auctions that showed that there are plenty of sellers that sell items cheaper.

Fifth, if you don't want it. DON'T BUY IT. If no one buys the item, then there's absolutely no repercussions of the seller listing it for that price. If someone does buy it, then the item is worth that value and there is a market for that game at that price, which completely contradicts your argument.

Sixth, and most importantly - I love how you search for a game, and find the auctions that sold for the LEAST and then claim that's the value of the game. Some people get lucky on auctions depending on what day and time the auction ends. The majority of the auctions for that game sold for ~10$. I found a copy of Super Mario RPG for the SNES for FREE. That doesn't make the value of it 0$.

End this nonsense and let this sad, little thread die.
 
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[quote name='yourlefthand']I just thought that this post was worth quoting here:



http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8516097&highlight=post#post8516097[/QUOTE]

so basically the long and short of it is that the free market works perfectly for spmanh when he's selling stuff. But when he's buying stuff and the price is too high, it's collusion.

That about sum it up?

Thanks for coming ladies and gentlemen, last one out of this thread turn out the light.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']All I'm seeing in this thread is a whole bunch of this: :cry::cry::-({|=:-({|=

Followed by a whole shitload of this: :speaktothehand::speaktothehand::argue::argue:

Which has caused me to do a lot of THIS: :rofl::rofl:

My opinion on it is actually the same as confoosious and mrspicytacoman. The market will bear what people are willing to pay. If they're willing to pay $20 for an old game while you're too cheap to and expect to get it for $5, then you're shit outta luck then aren't ya?

Either go into it expecting to pay more than you want or be prepared to be disappointed when you don't get your way and don't get the item(s) you want for the price you only wanna pay.[/QUOTE]

But I just showed that the market is presently above what people are willing to pay, but that there aren't any controlling forces to bring the prices down to what people are willing to pay. Since Video Games aren't a commodity that people NEED, and there's really no substitute products, the only alternative is to simply not buy overpriced used games, which is what seems to occur based on seeig the same overpriced listing month after month, year after year. I have no problem paying a fair market value, I do have a problem paying well above fair market value, and I take issue with people trying to manipulate the market and determine what fair market value should be despite evidence that the market will not and does not bear their high prices.
 
[quote name='RobotSimp']Its not just you noticing spmahn, same topic is popping up on many of the retro boards.

Some reasons listed at various places:

- 25 year, peak nostalgia time reached for items. NES 1985-1994 = 2010-2019
- Modern Gaming overall has exploded, NES has many characters/1st appearances/concepts/publishers which are basis of todays games
- Trendy to have old games, no longer niche. Mainstream acceptance
- Recession periods draw people to collectibles as investments, other collectibles are experiencing the same "phenomena"
- Increased media coverage on old games and high priced sales
- Retrogaming turning into a business/investment instead of a hobby
- Resellers and quick profit takers buying up stock
- Higher starting priced listings/sales cause others to follow suit. F
- Fixed price listings now more common than auction based listings
- Perception is turned to frenzy as people who actually collect/play retro feel like they have to have items or they will inflate more, which in turn causes more immediate bidding on items needed and higher prices
- Game grading increases cost for good condition/new items, possible tricke down effect
- Buyers paying tons of $ for sealed items, possible trickle down effect
- Possible Shill bidding on select items to maintain a specific price level
- Ebay is not the market, only a slice
- Bunch more, blah blah blah...

saw this link on another board, average loose cart price has jumped ~50% since 2k8 - http://videogames.pricecharting.com/console/nes?sort-by=name[/QUOTE]

Thank you sir, you get it. Thank you for answering my question.
 
[quote name='spmahn']But I just showed that the market is presently above what people are willing to pay, but that there aren't any controlling forces to bring the prices down to what people are willing to pay. Since Video Games aren't a commodity that people NEED, and there's really no substitute products, the only alternative is to simply not buy overpriced used games, which is what seems to occur based on seeig the same overpriced listing month after month, year after year. I have no problem paying a fair market value, I do have a problem paying well above fair market value, and I take issue with people trying to manipulate the market and determine what fair market value should be despite evidence that the market will not and does not bear their high prices.[/QUOTE]



The controlling force is the market itself. If you can't see that, then there's no helping you. Do you seriously not understand how a free market works?

You've made me dumber for listening to this crap.

edit: I'm being trolled right?
 
[quote name='confoosious']The controlling force is the market itself. If you can't see that, then there's no helping you. Do you seriously not understand how a free market works?

You've made me dumber for listening to this crap.

edit: I'm being trolled right?[/QUOTE]

But when the market prices itself above what people at willing to pay, then there is no market. In a perfect free market, someone would come along and undercut the higher prices, causing other to follow suit and lead prices towards equilibrium, but since resources are scarce, there isn't anyone out there willing to do that, thus prices stay high, and the market for whatever is being sold is effectively zero since it's not being sold at a price people are willing to pay.
 
I tried to explain it to you like 8 times but you refuse to understand. Linking a bunch of ebay auctions doesn't change the fact that ebay is a free market.

You don't know what a market is and apparently it's not within my abilities to explain it to you. So let someone else take up the cause.
 
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[quote name='confoosious']I tried to explain it to you like 8 times but you refuse to understand. Linking a bunch of ebay auctions doesn't change the fact that ebay is a free market.

You don't know what a market is and apparently it's not within with abilities to explain it to you. So let someone else take up the cause.[/QUOTE]

Except in this case it's not really a free market, it's an oligopoly.
 
[quote name='kermit036']
Also another thought for conversation: world market vs local market. IE your neighborhood may have been a Genesis town but in my state we build houses out of SNES's.[/QUOTE]

I live in a genesis town. It iritates the hell out of me. I find 10 genesis carts for every one SNES cart. (oddly I never find genesis consoles)

yea i got tired of reading threw this thread somewhere in page 2. lol.
 
i dont really understand why this thread has gotten his long, if it's too much for you dont buy it, and considering you want it that means there is a market but apparently ur just too cheap to buy it, do you not understand people want to make as much money as possible from their product, what is so hard to understand? it is so hard to understand that as time passes by older shit gets more expensive? it might have been cheap back then (in which case you should have bought it at that time) but now the sellers have determined these are more valuable for whatever there reasons and it's there CHOICE to charge whatever the hell they want
 
eBay is not a true market... that's the problem. People treat it as such, but it is just a forum. Maybe a marketplace, but not a market.

But just as BIN prices are not an indication of value, neither are eBay auctions because they run in a finite window, where luck plays a role in who sees what items when, and also the artificial ending point where snipers can distort the market.

There is collusion in the eBay market place, but it is not illegal collusion because no one is forcing everyone to go along. I actually had a game I was willing to sell for $50, but saw that everyone else had theirs priced at $100... I put mine up at $90 and sold it within a week.

EDIT: Also, one transaction (regardless of price) does not create a market price for something.
 
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And by listing it at $90, you've proven the invisible hand of the market is at play.

You acted in your own self interest (selling it by undercutting others) and it moved the market.

Please explain how eBay does not conform to market principles. An auction is not a market? What the?
 
Whoever said people are idiots had the correct answer.

Just look at all the dumbass Craigslist postings that think their NES-001 is worth $150.
 
[quote name='confoosious']And by listing it at $90, you've proven the invisible hand of the market is at play.

You acted in your own self interest (selling it by undercutting others) and it moved the market.

Please explain how eBay does not conform to market principles. An auction is not a market? What the?[/QUOTE]

But his game sold, proving that the market was willing to bear a $90 price tag for his game. This is in opposition to probably two dozen or more listings at $120 or higher for the same game that won't actually ever sell at that price proving that the market is not willing to bear the higher price. In a fair market with perfect competition, more people would list the item at the $90 price undercutting the higher priced sellers, ultimately leading to market equilibrium. In reality however, this does not happen because the used game market is not a perfectly competitive one, and sellers are unwilling to act rationally. The guy who sold his for $90 is the exception, not the rule, and not evidence of any invisible hand, since it's not doing anything at all to change the overall market conditions.
 
What are you doing to "fix" the market, anyways? Buy up some games and sell them for a price you think is reasonable, and by your logic, they will start selling for that price, right? Why not just do that?

Now, let's say you did that, and found you weren't making money (you wouldn't, and I doubt you're running a charity) you would raise your prices, right? It seems like you're stuck on Ebay, but that is a terrible example.
 
There are alot of factors that affect prices. It really does boil down to supply and demand as others have said. There are forces that affect those ends of it.

So for example, with every new entry into a popular franchise of games, the older ones are suddenly in higher demand sometimes because of the increased interest. Though this is sometimes temporary.

You also have the supply aspect. I remember owning Dracula X Chi No Rondo for the PC Engine, and man that thing was selling for quite a bit it was finally made available in the U.S. in the form of Virtual Console and the PSP Dracula X Chronicles. While it is still a valuable game, it's availability knocked it down a bit.

As for ebay seller pricing their stuff, I think some of them do price it really high, but if it is too high, people won't buy it.

If it isn't worth what they are asking to you, then don't buy it.
 
This is generally what happens ( This is not limited to just NES games either.)

A couple of people with list games at an insane price, then if a handful of people are actually dumb enough to buy any of them, that's where the problem starts. When people try to sell one and look up what the last few sold for they'll see the "Stupid price" And be all like " OMG! This is sooo rare! I better buy all the cheap ones I can get my hands on and try to flip them!" That, or other people will try to sell their copies for the "Stupid price" In hopes to get as much as other sellers have, thinking that must be what the item in question is actually worth now. There are many variations to this deadly combo of greed + supply and demand that just hurt the average joe gamer in the long run. I say this because when the average joe comes along they will see these prices and either A.) Buy the game in fear that the prices will go higher in the future and this is the cheapest they will find it, if ever again. B.) Think that because of overinflated prices the game is actually rare and this is either a good deal or normal price for the game. After AJ buys the game it just feeds the cycle more and keeps repeating until that outrageous price becomes the norm and is accepted. Also, as others have said about their being no charge to list items that don't sell, it just makes it that much more easy. I've seen it happen quite frequently, just look at Mass Effect 1 CE or Ninja Gaiden Sigma 1 & 2 CE's for example, and the bargain bin game ICO (Before the reprint) to name a few.
 
Anyone who has ever taken any kind of economics course in college will know that the market value (or price) if an item is determined by what an individual is willing to pay for that item. Not what people are willing to sell it for. If an item were worth what I was asking for it, I could list a twinky on eBay for $50 + s&h because I say that it is worth $50. It may be true that the twinky is worth $50 to me because I said it is...but no one will pay me $50 for it as that is not the value that the market has determined the twinky is worth. It is the same idea with a video game, new or old. The market value is determined by the buyers and what they are willing to pay.

It seems perfectly logical to me that eBay sellers, each acting independently of their own free will in the market, can act as an informal cartel of sorts. This is enabled by the fact that eBay charges no listing fees for certain auctions/BIN/whatever (since eBay charges no fees there is no consequence for listing an item at an inflated price to "go fishing", so an individual can keep listing the same price inflated item over and over freely with no cost to him/her). The informal "cartel" is then formed, as the OP stated, when 1 seller sees the inflated price and thinks that he/she can do the same thing, so he/she increases his/her price. This happens over and over until many people are asking that inflated price for the same item, thus creating an artificially inflated price for that particular item. This is what the OP is talking about. For example, in real life at the game store game X is still worth, and has a market value of, $10...but on eBay the game is worth $20 due to informal "collusion" of sellers.

Now, logic also dictates that the so called "cartel" will fall apart at some point... As prices get up higher and items dont sell, or not at the quantity some people like, some will lower their price to get more business (as generally, when all else is equal, people will choose the lesser priced item when deciding between a number of identical items offered from the many different sellers on eBay). When other sellers see that one of the sellers has lowered his/her price and is selling many items while they sell very few, sellers will then begin to lower their prices to be able to compete.

This is how the price fluctuates in the microcosm of eBay is what the OP is stating...and how some items prices can be artificially inflated above their true market values. It is logical and makes sense to me...

Price is a funny thing. Who is to say what the price for a given item is...? I am certainly not saying that I would know. But I do know that the value of an item is what a person is willing to pay. Sellers can set any price they want, but if it is unreasonable then most people will not buy that item (at least not from that seller). For a true free market to work there must be many buyers and many sellers. Since eBay is limited in members compared to the population of the world and the global economy, it is quite easy to see how prices could get artificially inflated when a small number of sellers informally "work together" to drive prices up (they are not really working together in the sense that they are speaking and colluding, but they are in the sense that they are doing things in common to achieve a common goal - such as increasing prices simply to attain higher profits).

It is the buyer that ultimately drives the market and pushes things forward. Without the injection of money into the system from the buyer there is no point in selling and there would be no market. Sellers can set prices as high as they want, and if there are few enough sellers of a certain item, they can successfully inflate the price beyond what it would normally be and essentially force a buyer to pay an inflated price for an item because there is no alternative. Is it fair? Not really, but it happens. People enjoy making money, and if they can make more rather than less then most people will take that opportunity.
 
The "cartel" will always fall apart because every seller acts in his self interest, hence there is no price fixing.

You can't have price fixing if everyone is out for their own self interest.

Does the ability to see what items have completed for allow for sellers to help set their prices? Yes.

But in the end, *self interest* always takes precedent and the market corrects itself.

There is no price fixing.

If you have a cart you really want to sell, you'll price it somewhere near what everyone else is selling at. But if you really wanted to sell it and there are no takers, you'd eventually lower it to a price someone is willing to pay. You dont care how this affects prices of sales that come after yours. You just want to get rid of your cart at a price acceptable to you.

In that situation, where is the price fixing?

I fully agree the buyer sets the price. So I dont understand how you can even agree a little bit with what the OP is saying.
 
[quote name='confoosious']The "cartel" will always fall apart because every seller acts in his self interest, hence there is no price fixing.

You can't have price fixing if everyone is out for their own self interest.

Does the ability to see what items have completed for allow for sellers to help set their prices? Yes.

But in the end, *self interest* always takes precedent and the market corrects itself.

There is no price fixing.

If you have a cart you really want to sell, you'll price it somewhere near what everyone else is selling at. But if you really wanted to sell it and there are no takers, you'd eventually lower it to a price someone is willing to pay. You dont care how this affects prices of sales that come after yours. You just want to get rid of your cart at a price acceptable to you.

In that situation, where is the price fixing?

I fully agree the buyer sets the price. So I dont understand how you can even agree a little bit with what the OP is saying.[/QUOTE]


It is because it is a microcosm. Since eBay is limited in the number of buyers and sellers compared to the global economy, it is quite possible that a limited number of people can do things that influence prices of certain items.

You nailed it on the head with the self interests. It is exactly people's self interests that lead them to ask a higher price to get more money because they see someone else doing it. 1 person gets away with it so the masses follow suit...why not make more profit? It is not until one of the sellers realizes that they can lower their inflated price a little and get more profit (due to a higher volume of sales) that prices will start to come back down. Its a fluctuation - back and fourth. Its effects seem to be much more pronounced when dealing with items with a lesser supply such as older games, where the lesser supply enables sellers to informally collude to artificially raise prices on eBay.

Im not trying to validate what the OP is saying as that would be almost impossible...but I see his logic and see how it is possible...logically.
 
It's only possible if everyone is thinking exactly the same way, which is the maximization of price. But not everyone thinks the same way. There's no ebay NES sellers meeting.

If only 5/10/50/100 people had access to a cart and they all decided to list it at $50, it's still not worth $50. And their cartel will be short lived as soon as someone says "F it, I'm just gonna list it at .01 auction and get what I get" or "I need cash right now, I don't have time to wait for someone to buy it at $50... I bet you it'll go fast at $40."

And then the next seller sees that it went for $40 but lists it at $40 and gets no buyers. So he lists it at $30. The price goes down. Where's the cartel now?

The fact that everyone on ebay has different motivations means that not all self interest means higher prices. Sometimes self interest means quick sale.

This is why I say it's a perfect marketplace. You can't control what other people on ebay are gonna do. So every faceless person acting in his own interest sets the market for the game. You mentioned intro economics course -- well isn't this what Adam Smith is talking about? Despite not being global, ebay is still a free market. You don't need to be global or even national to have a free market.
 
[quote name='confoosious']It's only possible if everyone is thinking exactly the same way.

If only 5/10/50 people had access to a cart and they all decided to list it at $50, it's still not worth $50. And their cartel will be short lived as soon as someone says "f it, I'm just gonna list it at .01 auction and get what I get" or "I need cash right now, I don't have time to wait for someone to buy it at $50... I bet you it'll go fast at $40."

The fact that everyone on ebay has different motivations means that not all self interest means higher prices. Sometimes self interest means quick sale.[/QUOTE]

No its not. This is where your invisible hand comes in. The invisible hand drives the marketplace...which is people looking after their own self interests. They dont have to think exactly the same way, as long as they are achieving the same outcome. Who would not want to make more money (or get more benefit from something rather than less)? It is embedded in our capitalist culture, as well as in many other cultures. We are taught that more is better (ex: more money)...therefore the rational person will want to get more money for their item if they can, rather than less. Who would sell something for cheaper if they could get more? Can you think of anyone (aside from a friend, or someone else doing you a favor)?

Its like human nature in our society. It is simply people doing what they do to better their situation. Since most people seem to think that more money is good, or more helpful to them, then they will try to get more money regardless of their individual goals and endeavors.
 
Like I said, it's not about just getting the most out of an item. Time is of the essence. Seller #2233 needs to pay his electric bill.

People act in their own self interest, which is that they don't care what other people will make. They simply want to get paid what they want to get paid. Of course they'd like to make as much money as they can but in order to have collusion and price fixing, they need to think about other sellers' interests, which no one on ebay ever does.

That's the invisible hand of the market at play.

I don't understand how you are halfway there on the free market and don't see the rest.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Like I said, it's not about just getting the most out of an item. Time is of the essence. Seller #2233 needs to pay his electric bill.

People act in their own self interest, which is that they don't care what other people will make. They simply want to get paid what they want to get paid. Of course they'd like to make as much money as they can but in order to have collusion and price fixing, they need to think about other sellers' interests, which no one on ebay ever does.

That's the invisible hand of the market at play.

I don't understand how you are halfway there on the free market and don't see the rest.[/QUOTE]

Thats not the invisible hand of the market. The invisible hand is very basically people looking after their own self interests, which mysteriously drives the marketplace forward.

I think I see where you are coming from. You are saying that the free market is at work and that is why prices are the way they are. I am saying that that is not the case in this instance because eBay is a microcosm of the world market and therefore is susceptible to influence much more easily (because there are drastically fewer people on eBay as compared to all the people that are part of the global marketplace).

Sellers dont need to think about anyone elses interests... Where are you inferring this from? That is why I said "informal" cartel. They only think about their own stuff and how much they can get. The only type of "collusion" that takes place is when one seller sees another raise his price, so they in turn raise theirs to get more $$$. Its an informal collusion and I am not saying that one seller is thinking of another in any way. All the sellers are doing is seeing each others prices and that is influencing them when they set their price. It is not truly a cartel, but that is the closest way to describe what is going on. It is basically monkey see monkey do - 1 person raises prices so the rest follow suit in order to make more profit. The result is a cartel effect where the price on eBay is higher than IRL (assuming that the IRL store price is equivalent to the market value) because a few sellers that raised their price for no other reason than to make more profit were able to influence the price.

No one is actually colluding or thinking the same or talking or whatever. It is human psychology and human nature to want more. A rational people will naturally want to get a higher price, therefore if they see 1 person is getting away with charging more, the rest will as well. This creates the "cartel" effect that the OP was talking about.

I dont know how else I can say it so I will give up as well. I would suggest that you go ask an economist as they would be able to explain it much easier than I can. What the OP is saying is totally logical, and logic would stipulate that what he has said is possible. Im not here to win an argument. I was simply trying to help people understand where the OP was even coming from. People laugh at him like he is dumb, yet his words are not outlandish at all...and even make sense if you have an understanding of economics, how cartels work, and think it through thoroughly.
 
Actually if you have an understanding of economics, you wouldn't say anything close to what he's saying about eBay and nes cartels.

There are some arguments to be made that eBay is not a perfect marketplace but in this case, none of them matter. Old Nes games have no cartels. Informal or otherwise.

There is no price fixing.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Like I said, it's not about just getting the most out of an item. Time is of the essence. Seller #2233 needs to pay his electric bill.

People act in their own self interest, which is that they don't care what other people will make. They simply want to get paid what they want to get paid. Of course they'd like to make as much money as they can but in order to have collusion and price fixing, they need to think about other sellers' interests, which no one on ebay ever does.

That's the invisible hand of the market at play.

I don't understand how you are halfway there on the free market and don't see the rest.[/QUOTE]

Just to go a bit further with your point, since I somehow read all the thread :). Spham seems to be arguing that the market is not working because the invisible hand is not instantly connecting buyers and sellers. It never does. Look at the housing market. We are on what, year 3 of working through the housing market issues and trying to get back to more of a normal sales lag?

It's the same thing here. A buyer and seller may not connect this week if there are only 5 copies of a game and everybody is selling at $20, but buyers want to pay $10. But eventually somebody's expectations will change. And it may be the buyers who say, you know I really do want that game and it is now worth $20 to me. And the market value solidifies at $20. Or it may be the sellers who say I really want to sell this game, so I'll sell to a willing buyer at $10. It may take a while. If you really want the game now, you'll pay $20 and that will be the market value.

But I think the answer is really easy. If a bunch of sales were occurring at $10 and now none are a drop in supply occurred. It's going to be impossible for you to prove an oligopoly exists since probably a half million different people have a copy of this game. They don't currently have it up for sale on ebay but if for some reason the market value of the game jumped to $500, people would be coming out of the woodwork to sell their copy. Since supply increases as price increases.

Taken a step further, demand decreases as price increases. Thus, if you used to see 10 sales/month at $10 and now you see 1 sale/month at $20, that seems to indicate that the demand/supply curve is reacting exactly the way it is supposed to.
 
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[quote name='confoosious']Like I said, it's not about just getting the most out of an item. Time is of the essence. Seller #2233 needs to pay his electric bill.

People act in their own self interest, which is that they don't care what other people will make. They simply want to get paid what they want to get paid. Of course they'd like to make as much money as they can but in order to have collusion and price fixing, they need to think about other sellers' interests, which no one on ebay ever does.

That's the invisible hand of the market at play.

I don't understand how you are halfway there on the free market and don't see the rest.[/QUOTE]

Sellter #2233 may lower his price because he needs to pay his electric bill, but what about sellers #1 - #2232 who don't care whether or not the game actually sells, and are just fishing for someone to bit on their high prices. They're never going to lower their prices, because they don't want to. Their only self interest is to try and sell game X for as high a prices as possible, even if it's unrealistic, they are still preying on the hope that there's a sucker born every minute.

What I've been saying is that eBay is overrun with these types that cause prices to inflate, despite the fact that there is no market for the items they are selling at the prices they are selling them for. Yes, sometimes you will get sellers that will lower their prices to levels that the market will bear, but it's hardly a frequent enough occurrence that you can point to that as the invisible hand of the market. Essentially what eBay has become is the guy who loads and unloads the same crap into his truck at the Flea Market each week, stubbornly refusing to lower his prices, because he has zero overhead, and doesn't actually care if he makes money or not. In fact with eBay it's even worse since there's almost zero investment of time.
 
[quote name='spmahn']Sellter #2233 may lower his price because he needs to pay his electric bill, but what about sellers #1 - #2232 who don't care whether or not the game actually sells, and are just fishing for someone to bit on their high prices. They're never going to lower their prices, because they don't want to. Their only self interest is to try and sell game X for as high a prices as possible, even if it's unrealistic, they are still preying on the hope that there's a sucker born every minute.

What I've been saying is that eBay is overrun with these types that cause prices to inflate, despite the fact that there is no market for the items they are selling at the prices they are selling them for. Yes, sometimes you will get sellers that will lower their prices to levels that the market will bear, but it's hardly a frequent enough occurrence that you can point to that as the invisible hand of the market. Essentially what eBay has become is the guy who loads and unloads the same crap into his truck at the Flea Market each week, stubbornly refusing to lower his prices, because he has zero overhead, and doesn't actually care if he makes money or not. In fact with eBay it's even worse since there's almost zero investment of time.[/QUOTE]

Sellers can't dictate the market. It doesn't matter what the price is at or if the listers on ebay care if they sell the game at all.

Supply increases as price increases. Thus, there may be 10 people that are willing to sell their copy at $10, 20 people willing to sell their copy at $20, 30 people willing to sell their copy at $30, etc. Just because I'm one of the 30 people willing to sell the game at $30 and I decide to list the game on ebay for $30 indefinitely that doesn't affect the value at all.

What does affect value is when a buyer runs out of other options (local game stores, flea markets, craiglist) and all the sellers willing to sell the game for $10 have already sold their game. It is a fact as price increases, fewer sales occur. Thus, just because you used to see dozens sell at $10 and now you only see a few sell at $20, does not mean the market is not functioning. Also, it does not mean the people willing to sell at $20 are influencing the market any differently than the normal supply/demand where more sellers are willing to sell at higher prices and less buyers are willing to partake in the market at higher prices. This is normal and happens when a decrease in supply occurs.
 
[quote name='smallsharkbigbite']Sellers can't dictate the market. It doesn't matter what the price is at or if the listers on ebay care if they sell the game at all.

Supply increases as price increases. Thus, there may be 10 people that are willing to sell their copy at $10, 20 people willing to sell their copy at $20, 30 people willing to sell their copy at $30, etc. Just because I'm one of the 30 people willing to sell the game at $30 and I decide to list the game on ebay for $30 indefinitely that doesn't affect the value at all.

What does affect value is when a buyer runs out of other options (local game stores, flea markets, craiglist) and all the sellers willing to sell the game for $10 have already sold their game. It is a fact as price increases, fewer sales occur. Thus, just because you used to see dozens sell at $10 and now you only see a few sell at $20, does not mean the market is not functioning. Also, it does not mean the people willing to sell at $20 are influencing the market any differently than the normal supply/demand where more sellers are willing to sell at higher prices and less buyers are willing to partake in the market at higher prices. This is normal and happens when a decrease in supply occurs.[/QUOTE]

I see. It makes a lot more sense when it's not so full of snark. Thank you.
 
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