When did secondary market prices for NES get so out of hand?

So you spend 4 pages arguing with me because you think I'm snarky? And not because you actually believe the stuff you were saying.

Nice trolling.

Silly me, I fell for it.
 
[quote name='confoosious']So you spend 4 pages arguing with me because you think I'm snarky? And not because you actually believe the stuff you were saying.

Nice trolling.

Silly me, I fell for it.[/QUOTE]

No, I spent 4 pages arguing with you because you were more concerned with being a douchebag than you were in making an argument. "You're a troll", "Read more about free markets" and "You whine too much" are not arguments.
 
so what about all the other arguments I made in this thread. You just conveniently chose to ignore those then? I didn't type 200 words multiple times? Was every single post just "neener neener?" No, you read my arguments and either couldn't comprehend or chose to be deliberately obtuse in your responses. Over and over and over again.

Whatever man, you started out whining about how ebay sellers were some sort of cartel setting prices and in the end, you were wrong. So, that's that.

Btw, "Read more about free markets" was a good suggestion.
 
[quote name='confoosious']so what about all the other arguments I made in this thread. You just conveniently chose to ignore those then? I didn't type 200 words multiple times? Was every single post just "neener neener?" No, you read my arguments and either couldn't comprehend or chose to be deliberately obtuse in your responses. Over and over and over again.

Whatever man, you started out whining about how ebay sellers were some sort of cartel setting prices and in the end, you were wrong. So, that's that.

Btw, "Read more about free markets" was a good suggestion.[/QUOTE]

I don't see it any different than you ignoring my arguments that didn't fit into your narrative, and focusing on the ones that did by making arguments based on false assumptions, but I'm through. It's been a blast.
 
While these old game prices are sort of inflated, whats going to happen is people wont buy them at the high prices, the market will dry up, prices will drop, people will buy again, and the cycle starts over. Its free market economics at work and I love it!
 
[quote name='SaraAB']
Though I am not sure if the children of today will become so that they want to get things from their childhood, many are so spoiled that all they care about is getting what is new so I don't know if its going to happen en masse like it has with the kids of the 80's generation. I have to wonder if the give your children whatever they want attitude most children are subjected to these days will carry into their adulthood so all they will be focused on is the shiny new Apple gadget and they will care less about the old PS2. Almost everyone I talk to in my age group (80's generation) has at least some form of nostalgia for the toys or video games they had as a kid, its hard to find a person who doesn't.
[/QUOTE]

This is something too. I remember cherishing my NES and SNES games. Organzing them in the shoe box next to the TV set. I would get games only on Christmas and my birthday and maybe once in my uncle as a surprise. With the SNES for like 6 years I probably owned 12 games. My parents were more likely to rent a game for 2 dollars from the video store than actually by them.

Then you take my cousin. He is 12 and just got the 360 this Christmas. He is up to 14 games. I look at his recently played game list and I see GTA4, MW 1, 2, 3, Gears 1, 2, Michael Jackson, some kinect games, Bioshock, Crackdown, Reach, DJ Hero, Skyrim, etc.

Also the fact he doesn't take care of games. I see them scattered around like frisbees. It just isn't my cousin. A friend of mine has a 11 year old and I think they went through 2 Nintendo DS' and are now on a 3DS because he keeps breaking them, dropping them, the dog gets it. Not to mention how many games have been stepped on or chewed up by the dogs.

I'm not saying that the kids are bad or anything, but just that I treated my carts like gold. Whenever something got dropped I'd freak out. Games are now seen as disposable when I always thought of them as a huge treat.

Maybe I'm wrong about the nostalgia factor, but I just feel like the PS2 and beyond stuff will never be as huge as current retro gaming. I have no real drive to play anything from the PS2 aside from a few games that have already been re-released. The Xbox I just want Otogi and Panzer Dragoon.

Even now if I'm not playing something from the last few years I'm playing Donkey Kong on MAME or Mike Tyson' Punch-Out!!
 
The problem is, to spmahn's point, resellers are pricing things recklessly and uninformed buyers are assuming that is how much they should pay, specifically:

because the average person doesn't understand that just because someone lists game X for Y dollars, doesn't mean that it's worth Y dollars, and definitely doesn't mean that it will actually be sold for Y dollars.
Click to expand...

Sellers are concerned with their own self interest, sure, but that only is the main concern in a bubble. RedRingofDeath already said this, but collusion between eBay sellers is happening, but indirectly. One seller manages to find a sucker willing to pay 150% over market value (as is above), the other sellers see this and follow suit and raise prices, leading to heaps of open BIN auctions sitting on eBay for months at that new price, and then the cycle repeats. I have talked to sellers, both online and at game shows like MGC and this is exactly what they do.

There is indirect price fixing under this model perpetuated by eBay's business model. I have talked to people who play the eBay game, have you, confoosius?

The real evidence here for what spman is saying and proof this has an effect on prices is this:
http://videogames.pricecharting.com/console/nes?sort-by=name

Someone earlier in the thread linked this but spmahn's detractors paid it no mind. The key here is the past 2 years. A 50% jump from 2 years ago and a 37% jump from a year ago. That's INSANE. Keep in mind JJGames's data is pulled from eBay/Amazon/half.com, aggregates and averages. It's the most comprehensive pricing source on the internet so it's not just abstract conjecture from the naysayers in this thread.

So the answer to the question when did the secondary market on NES get out of hand? 1-2 years ago and the recent trend implies it's just getting warmed up.

[quote name='AugustAPC']And who says Battletoads isn't worth 19.99? [/QUOTE]

Actual data from eBay, Amazon and half.com says it's not.

http://videogames.pricecharting.com/game/nes/battletoads#

Now take a look at this:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...letoads&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

To spmahn's point, how many BIN Battletoads are above that $12.47 price point? All of them. Since eBay allows them to price things without any drawback to their own pocket, this is what happens.

[quote name='AugustAPC']The prospect that a handful of people are controlling the market by putting up their games for high prices on eBay is hilarious.[/QUOTE]

Not putting up for high prices, but there are individuals out there influencing different sectors of NES collecting dramatically. Without naming names, try and find a pattern on completed CIB black box NES auctions. Your hint is the magic number which is currently 3285.

I do have to say coonfooscious has really done nothing to have the OP take him seriously by being extremely dismissive. The claims of 'grow up' and 'are you f'ing insane' dilute any message he's trying to relay.
 
[quote name='portnoyd']The problem is, to spmahn's point, resellers are pricing things recklessly and uninformed buyers are assuming that is how much they should pay, specifically:



Sellers are concerned with their own self interest, sure, but that only is the main concern in a bubble. RedRingofDeath already said this, but collusion between eBay sellers is happening, but indirectly. One seller manages to find a sucker willing to pay 150% over market value (as is above), the other sellers see this and follow suit and raise prices, leading to heaps of open BIN auctions sitting on eBay for months at that new price, and then the cycle repeats. I have talked to sellers, both online and at game shows like MGC and this is exactly what they do.

There is indirect price fixing under this model perpetuated by eBay's business model. I have talked to people who play the eBay game, have you, confoosius?

The real evidence here for what spman is saying and proof this has an effect on prices is this:
http://videogames.pricecharting.com/console/nes?sort-by=name

Someone earlier in the thread linked this but spmahn's detractors paid it no mind. The key here is the past 2 years. A 50% jump from 2 years ago and a 37% jump from a year ago. That's INSANE. Keep in mind JJGames's data is pulled from eBay/Amazon/half.com, aggregates and averages. It's the most comprehensive pricing source on the internet so it's not just abstract conjecture from the naysayers in this thread.

So the answer to the question when did the secondary market on NES get out of hand? 1-2 years ago and the recent trend implies it's just getting warmed up.
[/QUOTE]

It seems to me that the market for all collectibles has been heating back up as the economy in general has started to rebound. I refuse to do in-depth research on this to satisfy spmahn, as he is unwilling to listen to ideas that may contradict his preconceptions.

The whole argument comes down to the fact that one person can't determine what an item is worth. They can determine what it is worth to them, but there are so many factors in pricing on ebay that simply comparing buy it now prices to auction prices doesn't really prove anything. In my ebay experience people are willing to pay more for items with 'pretty' listings. Keywords, feedback, shipping speed, and a decent description help a lot also.
 
Let me try to explain this without being "dismissive."

All these arguments about how prices have jumped because of price fixing and all this other stuff violate the invisible hand of the market, which still holds true on ebay.

None of the arguments about microcosm, collusion, whatever make a whit of difference. You can link all the auctions you want. You can link all the video game price charts you want. It doesn't matter. Adam Smith is not wrong.

Let's say you have a flea market with 100 vendors. 10 of them are selling Barbie Horse Adventures GBA for $20 each. This particular flea market keeps a log of all their sales in the past 30 days. And some other flea market consultant keeps a log for 30 years. None of this matters.

Because the flea market has no barriers to entry. Anyone can just plop down their wares and sell. Therefore, the value of Barbie Horse Adventures GBA is whatever the next person is willing to pay for it. If no buyers come along that buy it at $20, no matter how many people list it at $20, the value isn't $20.

Three things can happen:

1) Nobody sells BHA and that's fine with everyone. They wouldn't want to part with their game for less than $20.

or 2) People start selling BHA at $20. So more vendors who had it in their collection start bringing it out to sell for $20 because they feel $20 is a pretty good price to fetch.

or 3) 1 out of the 100 vendors decides they'd be fine with selling BHA for $15. Now, all of the sudden, a price point, a single price point has been established at $15. If every other vendor shrugs and keeps it at $20, then the value hasn't moved appreciably and we wait for the next sale. Or none at all.

Or the next vendor decides $15 is good enough and drops his price to $15 and it sells. Rinse repeat.

---

The self interest of the first and second up to x vendors drives the market. Does the first vendor care that he's temporarily setting a price point for BHA and that he might be screwing over this "informal cartel?" Of course not. He just wants to be rid of BHA and either needs the money or the space or maybe he just is sick of looking at it. None of that matters.

Again, all that matters is that every single seller (and buyer), acting is his own self interest, will create an efficient marketplace for goods.

That's all that matters.

I see links to auctions and all that stuff. Tell me how any of that negates the invisible hand? It does not.

The efficient marketplace wins again.

You don't have to have a global marketplace for it to be efficient. How many items are global? The produce you buy locally competes against local vendors, not global vendors. The "ebay is a microcosm" argument doesn't work. It's not like they were the Apple store and nobody else carried Apple products.

There are no barriers to entry. Some old lady whose son has grown up might find a stack of barbie horse adventures in her attic. Does she care that everyone else is listing at $20? No, she wants to just get rid of the stack (probably cause she is ashamed) to make a little cash and to clear up space. So she starts her listing (or even her BIN) at $10. Her self interest drives the market.

----

Here's the thing I don't get. When the price of old NES carts go through the roof, it's informal price fixing. But when old Atari games plummet down again, it's not price fixing by the cartel?

This is why I'm dismissive. It just seems this entire thread is based on a whine that NES games are too high so someone must be to blame. (No one is to blame.) And the OP thinks he should be the one who determines what a game is worth. It's just his opinion. VG price charts and all that are fine but the value of a game is whatever the next person will pay for it, not what the OP thinks. (Or what a handful of sellers think.) To rant and rave against the informal cartel of ebay price fixing is sheer arrogance built on ignorance.

Please, if you can create a good argument about why ebay is immune to the invisible hand, I'd love to hear it. The fact that ebay isn't the only marketplace for NES games is even better. There's competition from other sellers on craigslist, forums, etc. Competition everywhere makes it more perfect. After all, it's not like people are forced to buy NES carts from only ebay.
 
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I don't think anyone has mentioned that one reason you see a lot of vastly overpriced listings on ebay or amazon or whatever is because the items listed at a reasonable price actually sell while the ones listed at ridiculous prices just stay there. There are tons of resellers on Amazon especially who list items at absolutely outrageous prices and they will probably never sell. This doesn't affect the market or the value of the item whatsoever.

Another factor is that it's much more convenient to buy an item instantly rather than waiting for an auction to end and hoping you win. This is probably the main reason BIN auctions are almost always listed at higher prices than standard auctions. Sellers assume, and rightfully so, that if someone is willing to watch an auction for days and eventually pay $10 for a game, then there are probably others who would pay more than that for the convenience of buying the game instantly.

And finally, it's not reasonable to assume that you are entitled to pay no more for an item than other people who bought the same item before you. You are free to take that information into consideration when making your decision and if you don't want to pay more than that, that's perfectly fine. If that is the case though, you might just have to wait it out and hope you can find one for the price you're willing to pay. If you want to buy the item right now, you're probably going to have to pay more. You just can't expect it to always be available right now for your accepted value.
 
$20 is high but not unbelievable on a game like Battletoads--if all available copies are bought up to $12 then I might list a nice copy for $15 plus shipping. Furthermore, an international buyer might be willing to pay $20, which could explain why some of the higher BINs do sell.

Here's the thing, if I have one copy of Battletoads and know it will sell I have no problem sitting on it for a year...as opposed to taking it up the ass and accepting a cheapass offer like $8 shipped. I set myself a target of how much I want to clear on the item after fees and shipping: it might be as little as $10. You want the game, you eat the extra costs involved. Simple as that.
 
Also, if you want to blame anybody for the higher prices, blame local retro stores who overprice sought-after items and still can't keep them in stock. These are the folk who use ebay as a supply depot and a source of free advertising.
 
I can't tell you how many people have overvalued/overpaid for "old" games simply because they are old.

"I have 30 Atari games in a box in my closet. They're prolly worth $500 or so now, but I'd let em go for $350 cash."

Um. No.

I watched a guy pay $50 cash for Donkey Kong Country and F-Zero a few weeks ago. The guy that owned the games had them in a display case with other SNES carts for kids to play on an old TV. Customer walked up, in awe seeing SNES carts in an actual store again, and begged to purchase them.

"They aren't for sale."

"Dude, I really want them! How much?"

"Um.. $50 cash."

"SCORE!"

(Acting like he just made out like a bandit)

"These things are so rare these days, I can't believe I just bought TWO of them".

I was blown away.
 
[quote name='Dokstarr']This is something too. I remember cherishing my NES and SNES games. Organzing them in the shoe box next to the TV set. I would get games only on Christmas and my birthday and maybe once in my uncle as a surprise. With the SNES for like 6 years I probably owned 12 games. My parents were more likely to rent a game for 2 dollars from the video store than actually by them.

Then you take my cousin. He is 12 and just got the 360 this Christmas. He is up to 14 games. I look at his recently played game list and I see GTA4, MW 1, 2, 3, Gears 1, 2, Michael Jackson, some kinect games, Bioshock, Crackdown, Reach, DJ Hero, Skyrim, etc.

Also the fact he doesn't take care of games. I see them scattered around like frisbees. It just isn't my cousin. A friend of mine has a 11 year old and I think they went through 2 Nintendo DS' and are now on a 3DS because he keeps breaking them, dropping them, the dog gets it. Not to mention how many games have been stepped on or chewed up by the dogs.

I'm not saying that the kids are bad or anything, but just that I treated my carts like gold. Whenever something got dropped I'd freak out. Games are now seen as disposable when I always thought of them as a huge treat.

Maybe I'm wrong about the nostalgia factor, but I just feel like the PS2 and beyond stuff will never be as huge as current retro gaming. I have no real drive to play anything from the PS2 aside from a few games that have already been re-released. The Xbox I just want Otogi and Panzer Dragoon.

Even now if I'm not playing something from the last few years I'm playing Donkey Kong on MAME or Mike Tyson' Punch-Out!![/QUOTE]

I could tell a hundred stories about how my cousin's lose things, they have lost countless systems and games, all because they know they can get a replacement from the bank of mom & dad at any point. But it doesn't seem that they care about that too much , as they don't seem to care if a game gets lost. They don't really demand a replacement. They just move onto something else in their collection. Man if I lost a game, even one game, I would be REALLY upset, especially if I lost the memory card or game with my save files on it. But this doesn't seem to phase them. They eat near their laptops and their laptops are full of crumbs and dirt. They each have their own laptop, one has an alienware, though I don't think that is so unusual these days (but I don't think kids need alienware, most won't even know how to use it to its full capacity). They have thrown out a Nintendo Wii because they didn't want it anymore. My other cousin owns almost every Nintendo game from the current gen and has payed full price for every single one and has no qualms about fleecing his parents for $50 games every time one comes out. The parents happily purchase the games as soon as he whines for one, btw he is EXCELLENT at whining! He bought a 3DS for full price on launch day and barely played it since no games were out for it, worse yet he traded in a perfectly good DSi to get it and probably got pennies for it, hopefully the price drop taught him a lesson but I don't think so. When my cousins talk about games they had in the past its either "I lost that game" or "demons ate it" no lie they actually tell me that demons ate their games, and they are more than old enough to be able to separate reality from fiction. All my cousin's have had iPods starting at age 8 and when the iPods broke or got outdated (aka as soon as a new one comes out) they got new ones immediately, provided by the parents. They have been through I don't know how many. This was also back when iPods cost a lot more than they do today and iTunes had a million restrictions (its not like that now).

The only saving grace here is none of the families I know have pets, so there are no pets to wreck things.

Most kids who only got games for birthday and Xmas treated their games like gold and genuinely appreciated each game. Now games are disposable and are given to kids by their parents on demand, there is no waiting for birthday or Christmas to get a game, they get it when they want it at any price. Systems are usually given for holiday presents but games are on demand. I don't even know if they appreciate the games, since they are given and are now expected by the children on demand, and anything not given on demand creates whining, which leads to the parents giving in without question. I haven't seen a kid who was not like this, even if the family is not rich, and even if the family cannot afford things for their child (out comes the credit card!), the child gets whatever they want when they want it.

Its even worse with smartphones, I know a lot of parents who pay each month for their kid to have a smartphone including data plan, and we all know how much smartphones cost. We aren't talking about prepaid either we are talking about the latest iPhone on Verizon or AT&T. I didn't realize a child now comes with a $100 or more smartphone bill monthly starting at age 8, that is definitely a huge cost that parents of previous generations of children did not have to worry about paying.
 
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My one buddies' one nephew is like this. He had a 360 already and just got the PS3 for Christmas(and his grandparents got him a flat screen TV to play it on). But he apparently treats his games like crap and even forgets about them unless they're something that he really likes.

Case in point: I bought a beat up copy of GTA IV for PS3 from a Salvation Army a while ago. I gave it to him since I didn't wanna test it in my system. It looked like someone tried cleaning it with an abrasive/acidic cleaner, as there were all sorts of pit marks and small scratches on it.

He still talks about that game, but has completely forgotten about the copy of Ratchet & Clank: All 4 One that he got with his PS3 bundle at Christmas. Not to mention he gleefully agreed to trade me his Little Big Planet 2 Special Edition from the bundle in exchange for a sealed(but pre-owned) Gears Of War 3 that I got for $12 used from BB and a copy of Rage for PS3 that I paid $5 for from BB.

So all together it cost me $21 if counting the GTA IV copy to get a $50-60 game from him, meaning he still doesn't know or care about the value of his games and likely doesn't have to try and earn them himself.
 
I, being of the generation you are talking about, have an opinion on the subject that I hope you would like to hear. You all do have valid points on the fact that my generation does not "value" our games as much. Not so. The times have changed in good ways and bad. You all most likely had games you enjoyed and did not enjoy, correct? Same here but with a difference. There are more games to enjoy then before. Citing wikipedia there were "785" NES games right? The Xbox 360 has 3620 games if you include Arcade, Indie, Kinect, and retail.

The amount of games released, and for a lower price in comparison, means that a child does not have to become attached to the amount of games he has. We all have backlogs now and again too, right? You also never really comment on games that don't interest you ether.

One other reason games might not be as cherished is how they are packaged, Older games were cartridges that had disposible boxes that were well made and felt nice to hold. New games are discs that are put into plastic unremarkable cases that are, literally, a dime a dozen.

One more thing, you do have to recognize that older systems were less complicated and harder to break. Xbox, not so much.

To add to the normal conversation: NES games are less common. I.E. Price goes up. Also invisible hand is complete BS. The market runs itself. If supply is high and want is low, price falls. If supply is low and want increases, price goes up. If want increases and supply is the same, prices rise. If want is low and supply is the same, price falls. Price fixing may occur but at such a small amount that it doesn't really matter. OP secondary market did not go out of hand, want increased.


But, please prove me wrong if I am.


By the way, please try to ignore spelling and typing mistakes, I was using a new keyboard that was spaced differently then my old one.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']My one buddies' one nephew is like this. He had a 360 already and just got the PS3 for Christmas(and his grandparents got him a flat screen TV to play it on). But he apparently treats his games like crap and even forgets about them unless they're something that he really likes.

Case in point: I bought a beat up copy of GTA IV for PS3 from a Salvation Army a while ago. I gave it to him since I didn't wanna test it in my system. It looked like someone tried cleaning it with an abrasive/acidic cleaner, as there were all sorts of pit marks and small scratches on it.

He still talks about that game, but has completely forgotten about the copy of Ratchet & Clank: All 4 One that he got with his PS3 bundle at Christmas. Not to mention he gleefully agreed to trade me his Little Big Planet 2 Special Edition from the bundle in exchange for a sealed(but pre-owned) Gears Of War 3 that I got for $12 used from BB and a copy of Rage for PS3 that I paid $5 for from BB.

So all together it cost me $21 if counting the GTA IV copy to get a $50-60 game from him, meaning he still doesn't know or care about the value of his games and likely doesn't have to try and earn them himself.[/QUOTE]

Sorry for second post, but I needed to say something else.

IAmTheCheapestGamer, while you point is slightly valued factor in play value. Did he enjoy All for one? Most likely not. Will e enjoy Gears 3? Most likely yes. He traded it for play value not monetary value.

Sorry wanted to get that off my chest.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Ummm... that's what invisible hand means.[/QUOTE]

I feel like the word doesn't explain it well. "Invisable Hand" Makes it seem like there is no rhyme or reason. It seems like it should be called a "Perpetual Motion Device". It keeps itself going.
 
[quote name='Daw19yoyo']I feel like the word doesn't explain it well. "Invisable Hand" Makes it seem like there is no rhyme or reason. It seems like it should be called a "Perpetual Motion Device". It keeps itself going.[/QUOTE]

I'm assuming you're in high school so I won't jump down your throat.

The "invisible hand" is an economics term defined by Adam Smith in the wealth of nations. It's not just something I made up.
 
Its not even so much the PS2 generation, I know kids who had PS2's who didn't get games often at all. Those kids are now in the 13 and up age group. Its really the current generation of 12 year old's and under, who probably had the Xbox 360, Wii or PS3 as their first consoles.

Well I guess there isn't a whole lot to appreciate about the artwork these days as a lot of games don't even come with manuals and the box artwork is often an afterthought.

I didn't track prices extensively in the 80's and 90's so I can't make any comment, moreover, back then I didn't even own any game consoles since my parents couldn't afford them and I didn't want them. I do know that N64 Hey you Pikachu was $90 at one point everywhere, that was quite a lot of money for 1999 or whenever that game came out. I have seen the colored N64's for like 79.99 during a similar time period, making them cost less than one of their games.

I assume though that like now there were cheaper games and full priced games, I assume there were 19.99 NES titles that were not as good as the first party ones which cost more. But now we have games that cost as little as $5 and can be delivered to your door with the click of the mouse.
 
The prices of a auction item that isnt buy it now is not truely reflective the the current value of an item if the item appeals only to a small subset of people. Since the timeframe for the auction is short it limits the amount of potential buyers to only those searching for the item in that tmeframe. Within a given week only a small % of the people that might be interested in a game like battletoads or rescue rangers might actually seach for it. Its just like a yardsale. If you are selling some obscure crap you better be selling it cheap because you would have to be pretty lucky to get someone else that just happens to be into that niche item to come to your yard sale.
By allowing sellers to only get charged when they sell it allows them to hold the item for a larger population to buy. In an economic sense this is a much more effient market. From an economics perspective ebay is interesting in that multiple sellers are all posting the same item at different prices, effectivly taking different point along a supply line curve. Buyers likewise are either not buying at all (at one point along the demand line) or buying (a different point on the demand curve). Over time if more sellers are not selling the prices will start to come down. For example, watch the amazon marketplace when amazon itself lowers its price for a game, many of the other sellers on marketplace will drop their price in turn to continue to make sales.
With these older games its only natural that the price is rising for a few different reasons:
1. No new copies
2. Existing copies are moving into the hands of people who collect or are being destroyed by people that don't know their value.
3. People that started gaming in the NES SNES era are reaching their prime earning years. Look at the post on this boardof people showing pictures of their collections. These people have good jobs and have a passion for games. If you make a reasonable income its not a dealbreaker to pay 12 bucks instead of 5 for resuce rangers if you want it and its not worth your time to seach ebay every day to find the rare copy going cheaper.
 
[quote name='confoosious']I'm assuming you're in high school so I won't jump down your throat.

The "invisible hand" is an economics term defined by Adam Smith in the wealth of nations. It's not just something I made up.[/QUOTE]

Oh I know, but I still fell it does not describe it as well as it could. An "Invisable Hand" feels like it could do whatever it wanted and get away with it. (Invisible)
 
Did anyone else read the article in either @gamer or game informer(don't remeber which) that talked about would the current generation of games be collectible or playable in the future.
With games like Skyrim that were still super buggy even with day one patches someday in the future once next generations of consoles are out and patch servers for these games arnt avalable so many games in this generation will be complete trash
 
[quote name='Daw19yoyo']Oh I know, but I still fell it does not describe it as well as it could. An "Invisable Hand" feels like it could do whatever it wanted and get away with it. (Invisible)[/QUOTE]

sure you do.
 
[quote name='Ramandur']Did anyone else read the article in either @gamer or game informer(don't remeber which) that talked about would the current generation of games be collectible or playable in the future.
With games like Skyrim that were still super buggy even with day one patches someday in the future once next generations of consoles are out and patch servers for these games arnt avalable so many games in this generation will be complete trash[/QUOTE]

interesting. But I gotta think there will be websites dedicated to providing patches and the publishers will just look the other way.

I did like the article in this months game informer in defense of day 1 DLC.
 
Being in highschool, I can attest to kids treating games like crap. Even my own syblings. They find it very difficult to deal with a brother who wants them to keep stuff nice. But they've learned to live with it since that brother also has new games delivered to the house on a weekly bases thanks to his massive amounts of trade in credit.
But back to my main point, most kids now a days are
1) only playing COD and Sports games, which drop in value almost as soon as the new one comes out. They see no need to even keep the games usable for more than a year.
2) Games like these come with a paper thin manuel and eco thin cases that aren't built to last. These items provided no real value to the games so they see no reason to keep them around.
3) Lots of games suck. I know their were bad old games, but they all had charm. These dime a dozen shovelwear movie games are so bad, that if I bought them I'd have trouble justifiying preseriving them if I wasn't already such a neat freak.
4) Atleast with PS3 blu rays, they are so durable that kids can throw them around like frisbees and still work fine, so they see no reason not to.
I was hanging out with a friend the other day, and his mother asked him if she could toss all his DS game cases because he didn't use them and they just took up space. At first I tried to convice her not to, but upon looking at the sports/sholvewear that these cases were for, I just gave up and looked the other way.
 
I was never gentle with my Genesis games but I still have almost all of them. A few of the cases and manuals were lost along the way though. We got a PS1 when I was in 5th grade and those games did not fare nearly as well...lots of lost cases and manuals, and horribly scratched discs. So my unofficial theory is...cartridges are more unique than CD- or DVD-based media, so we cherish them quite a bit more?

I do wonder about current-gen games and their patches. It'd be nice if everything was just available forever but Microsoft especially seems like the type of company that will just pull the plug one day. Actually they already did with the original Xbox's live service. If that happens the only way I could see that stuff still being accessible is with a hacked console, which I guess isn't a big deal if the online services and everything no longer exist anyway. Just thinking out loud here.
 
[quote name='AugustAPC']Can't you transfer patch data with portable memory?[/QUOTE]

With the Dreamcast they had sites that had VMU saves that you can download directly to it. If there is some way you can work something out in that manner I'm sure it would save a lot of headaches in the future. The only problem I see is if/when the servers get shutdown will there be a way to still have access to the patch.

For the record, I took care of my stuff!
 
[quote name='skiizim']With the Dreamcast they had sites that had VMU saves that you can download directly to it. If there is some way you can work something out in that manner I'm sure it would save a lot of headaches in the future. The only problem I see is if/when the servers get shutdown will there be a way to still have access to the patch.

For the record, I took care of my stuff![/QUOTE]

That's why I bet you someone has already started archiving patches. PastGenPatches.com coming soon....
 
[quote name='confoosious']That's why I bet you someone has already started archiving patches. PastGenPatches.com coming soon....[/QUOTE]

Let's hope so, it would save so many headaches!!! I hated patching all the Xbox games that I was able too.
 
[quote name='confoosious']And by listing it at $90, you've proven the invisible hand of the market is at play.

You acted in your own self interest (selling it by undercutting others) and it moved the market.

Please explain how eBay does not conform to market principles. An auction is not a market? What the?[/QUOTE]

It's not a market because if true competition were present, I would have been happy with $50 I originally wanted for it. Furthermore, eBay is not a market because of the lack of true competitive bidding--because of BIN, or because of the time limited auction format where snipers can take advantage of the finite end of the auction and not truly have to "compete".
 
[quote name='KtMack23']Being in highschool, I can attest to kids treating games like crap. Even my own syblings. They find it very difficult to deal with a brother who wants them to keep stuff nice. But they've learned to live with it since that brother also has new games delivered to the house on a weekly bases thanks to his massive amounts of trade in credit.
But back to my main point, most kids now a days are
1) only playing COD and Sports games, which drop in value almost as soon as the new one comes out. They see no need to even keep the games usable for more than a year.
2) Games like these come with a paper thin manuel and eco thin cases that aren't built to last. These items provided no real value to the games so they see no reason to keep them around.
3) Lots of games suck. I know their were bad old games, but they all had charm. These dime a dozen shovelwear movie games are so bad, that if I bought them I'd have trouble justifiying preseriving them if I wasn't already such a neat freak.
4) Atleast with PS3 blu rays, they are so durable that kids can throw them around like frisbees and still work fine, so they see no reason not to.
I was hanging out with a friend the other day, and his mother asked him if she could toss all his DS game cases because he didn't use them and they just took up space. At first I tried to convice her not to, but upon looking at the sports/sholvewear that these cases were for, I just gave up and looked the other way.[/QUOTE]

Some of the bad games are literately the same exact game engine with new graphics slapped on them to make the game look different. Its not worth it to preserve these games, unless you can get them really cheap, like $1 a pop. Even then if you can pull that off you should probably sell them in an ebay lot as fast as you can before they devalue even more. The only good thing here is that the Xbox 360 achievement system has made some people buy these games just to get the easy achievements that they offer, thus increasing the value of these games in some cases.

It seems like the value of certain DS games doesn't increase if you have the case and manual, you will get the same price on the secondary market for a cart only as a copy in the case with manual. Obviously not true for all titles but for some it is true. For the DS its just easier to keep all the carts in a cart case or a in small box or container. Saving the cases does take up a lot of space, if you have 20-30 games those cases can create a stack or a pile pretty quickly.

I don't own any blu-rays, but if they really are that durable then I don't see any reason to take special care of them, you obviously have to be reasonable but if they can hold up through the abuse and they still work then that is great.
 
[quote name='soonersfan60']It's not a market because if true competition were present, I would have been happy with $50 I originally wanted for it. Furthermore, eBay is not a market because of the lack of true competitive bidding--because of BIN, or because of the time limited auction format where snipers can take advantage of the finite end of the auction and not truly have to "compete".[/QUOTE]

I don't even know what to say to this jumbled logic.

No, if information was not present, you would have been happy with the $50. But with information, you yourself became competition at $90. More information means a more efficient marketplace, not less.

This is exactly the same as the guy looking across the street and seeing his competition having a sale on chocolate covered bananas. He can choose to ignore, match, or beat the sale. You saw your competition and decided to beat it. Likewise, someone else could list it at 80...70...etc. But you listed it at $90 and someone bought it. But somehow that's not a market?

So it's not a true market because of BIN or because of auctions? You can't have both.

Based on your logic, what is a true market? Basically, an auction house where there's no time limit and everyone is there? How is that even remotely plausible.

You (and really the whole basis of the OP's argument) are saying that BINs are some sort of collusion tactic that keeps ebay from being a market. Yet, practically all of the world's consumer markets run on BIN (aka an offer price), and you claim because ebay has BIN, it's not a market? How does that make sense?

Ebay would be not a free market if the company ebay set a minimum or maximum price on goods. This does not happen. They let anyone who wants post their wares and set their own prices. That's a free market that is subject to the invisible hand. Now if you want to argue that it's not a perfectly competitive market, that's a different story. But mostly, the argument about NES carts are about BIN auctions being too high. How can you have set prices where the sellers can set any prices they want not be a competitive market?

Also, how in the world do you make an argument about SELLER competition based on the sniper ability of BUYERS?

Again, let me sum this up for you.
1) There are no barriers to entry
2) Every seller on ebay of nes games has his own self interest in mind
3) ebay does not set any minimums or maximums on goods

how is this market not subject to the invisible hand? Just because at any given time there is only a handful of sellers listing their copy of Battle Toads doesn't mean it's an oligopoly. There's no barriers to entry!

I can understand your argument if there was a WidgetX that was all being sold by the same company under 20 different accounts but clearly that isn't the case here. Anyone can decide to sell their old nes/genesis/atari cart and price it however they like.

---

By the way, this is just all the crap I learned in econ a decade ago. If someone wants to play Matt Damon to my douchey ponytail guy, I'll be your huckleberry. It'd be pretty funny and the natives would love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsHLkB8u3s

To be honest, I'd be more like Casey Aflleck in this scene. But some of you people crack me up with your theories.
 
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By the way, this is just all the crap I learned in econ a decade ago. If someone wants to play Matt Damon to my douchey ponytail guy, I'll be your huckleberry. It'd be pretty funny and the natives would love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsHLkB8u3s

To be honest, I'd be more like Casey Aflleck in this scene. But some of you people crack me up with your theories.
 
This whole mind numbing thread is proof that public education is broken. Confoosious, I applaud you for trying but for some people the world will always be flat. Just look at all the people who call themselves Mormons or Scientologists with a straight face. After learning about what Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard got people to believe, NES cartridge cartels don't even seem like that big of a stretch.

This thread makes me want to buy shares in companies that produce adult diapers, drool bibs, short yellow buses, pizza pops and the WWE. Talk about civilization in decline...
 
I think it's all about timing and location. Just because I don't see pre-PS1 stuff at sales doesn't make me think they have all found permanent homes (collectors mostly). I live in a small town and the chances are slim I'll find an NES this week. But if I drove to STL and hit more sales my odds improve.

All it takes is for someone to get married or lose their job and boom... It's all on the market again. And either someone will pay what it's worth or they will have another sale at lower prices.

It's definitely not a situation to worry about. No one should think of gaming as an investment. It's a hobby.

On the flipside, if you're looking to buy for pleasure... Be patient. Your time will come.
 
[quote name='OrangeArmy']This whole mind numbing thread is proof that public education is broken. Confoosious, I applaud you for trying but for some people the world will always be flat. Just look at all the people who call themselves Mormons or Scientologists with a straight face. After learning about what Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard got people to believe, NES cartridge cartels don't even seem like that big of a stretch.

This thread makes me want to buy shares in companies that produce adult diapers, drool bibs, short yellow buses, pizza pops and the WWE. Talk about civilization in decline...[/QUOTE]

lol... Remember Idiocracy?!?! I've actually stopped and thought to myself if mankind is heading that way.

That is why I try to stay out of most arguments on CAG (I do enjoy reading them though), the topic in question always seems to have a moot point.
 
[quote name='skiizim']lol... Remember Idiocracy?!?! I've actually stopped and thought to myself if mankind is heading that way.

That is why I try to stay out of most arguments on CAG (I do enjoy reading them though), the topic in question always seems to have a moot point.[/QUOTE]
Lol I was thinking of that movie too. Beef supreme and the electrolytes that plants need
 
[quote name='OrangeArmy']Lol I was thinking of that movie too. Beef supreme and the electrolytes that plants need[/QUOTE]

Brawndo! It has electrolytes!
 
I think a bunch of people brought up good points here but the reason for the boom in prices is pretty simple when you add up all the factors.
1) Systems and Accessories are becoming harder to find, if only because the ones produced are finally breaking.
2) For the most part, we didn't take care of our games from the 80's and 90's.
3a) Collectors aren't in the market for multiple copies
3b) Secondhand shops have all the excess of the common stuff.
Basically, collectors don't have extra of the good stuff and shops barely keep the good stuff.
4) Gamestop. Those bastards destroyed a ton of games so they could free up space for their stores.
5) eBay. Everyone wants the most value and if one guy is higher, sell it at his price.
6) More gamers. More people equals more demand
7) Less games. Unless you had a huge hit, barely anything had a run over 50k-100k. Figure a fourth of those are wrecked in someway and you have less supply.
8) Downloadable games. You play the old stuff and want it.
9) Nostalgia from the Gen X and Gen Y (Born from 1970 until about 1994) They have the income to buy back their childhood games.
10) Hipster/Retro. To some degree, people might think they are staying old school by having this stuff around.
 
[quote name='OrangeArmy']Lol I was thinking of that movie too. Beef supreme and the electrolytes that plants need[/QUOTE]

Its what plants crave dammit
 
[quote name='confoosious']By the way, this is just all the crap I learned in econ a decade ago. [/quote]

So this is, along with all your assumptions, are what you're going on? Seriously? All you're doing is regurgitating old learnings and prostrating that they must be correct because you learned them in an economics class?

Well played. 9/10 on the troll meter.
 
[quote name='portnoyd']So this is, along with all your assumptions, are what you're going on? Seriously? All you're doing is regurgitating old learnings and prostrating that they must be correct because you learned them in an economics class?

Well played. 9/10 on the troll meter.[/QUOTE]

There are fundamental principles of economics that don't change. The invisible hand of the market being one of them. Supply and demand being another. This isn't like something that's en vogue amongst management consultants like silo organizations vs matrix organizations.

Guess what? I learned falling objects accelerate at 9.8/m/s^2 in high school and to the best of my knowledge, it still applies today. Imagine that.

Go prostrate yourself in front of the tv, watch "Ow my balls!" and stfu.

@OrangeArmy - I guess you really should invest heavily in those shares.
 
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On a mobile so ill read thread later, wanna chime in and say I've seen a lot of Craigslist people trying to push 60-75 for a nes or snes. A few guys definitely flipping Cl full-time. Makes it hard to find anything. But those prices have been getting pushed for awhile, I would assume the sellers are getting around their asking price because the same generic listings are being listed every other day without going down in price, Along with the re-sellers buy posts.

Post 1
Looking to buy a Gamecube
Im looking for a Nintendo Gamecube and/or games. I would like at least some controllers and games to play with my Wii. I wouldn't mind the system also, but not necessary. The game I want the most is Smash Bros Melee, but would be interested in anything fun. shooters and the classics.

Post 2
Looking to buy a N64
Im looking for a Nintendo 64 and/or games. I would like at least some controllers and games to play. I wouldn't mind the system also, but not necessary. The game I want the most is Smash Bros, but would be interested in anything fun. I like sports games, shooters and the classics.

And same goes for sega, sega cd, saturn, etc



Same at the thrifts, even the 7.99 Mario duckhunts at goodwill are selling. Only game things that sit more than a few hours are 20 dollar playstations which end up selling too. As noted earlier, disposable income, collectors, + hipster image, + dwindling supply = increased prices. I thought that emulation, remakes, compilations. Would have a greater impact on price, but it more often effects other disc based games than cart.

ICO, Disc Based Mega Man X 4-6, Metal Gear Solid, All disc based which took a hit when another disc based format was released.

Chrono Trigger, FF 4, 6. Mega Man x 1-3, Shining force, Various Mario titles and various nes stuff. have higher prices than their disc based counterparts or vc price.




As far as history and trending @ B&M

Mid 90's the nes stuff obviously took a hit, and I remember going into chain game stores. Rhino, Babages, Software etc, EB, Gamestop, etc. And picking up a lot of games from 1-10 dollars. There wasn't anything over that price except maybe a few at 14.99 like Dragon Warrior IV. I got a lot of boxed classics Contra, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania, etc for 2.99.

Late 90's - Early 2000 Nes prices started to increase somewhat. And common titles like Contra and SMB3 were now 14.99. 16 bit games didn't dip too low and the two most expensive snes games were Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI at 29.99. I picked up several copies of Dracula X and Earth bound for 7.99-9.99. Slowly a lot of the games crept up in price with the squaresoft titles going down for a little bit when the psx collections were released, FF IV,VI went back up a little, and Chrono Trigger a lot. A complete copy was about 70-80 in 2002 and now looks like 150-200.

Stepping back a bit, we are able to get most games from 80's till now for cheaper than retail, even with inflation. Especially if you go cart/disc only. Although it does hurt the pocket when the box for a game like Ninja Gaiden Trilogy costs more than the game did new.
 
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