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The Star Trek III (Back from the Dead) Thread


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#1201 Clak

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:10 PM

That is a good question. I won't be upset either way, though I prefer they keep the old effect. That can be explained as the Borg later improved their shield tech.

I'd actually prefer they updated it if possible. I always figured they used the blur effect because they didn't have the money for anything better.

As far as TNG movies go, Generations and First Contact I like, Insurrection and Nemesis, ugh....
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#1202 blandstalker

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:42 PM

I pretty much hated the TNG movies. The only one I liked was First Contact, which I see pretty much the same way I see The Undiscovered Country: lots of good ideas, lots of weak things that undermine the great ideas. On the whole, enjoyable, so long as you don't think too hard.

Unlike the rest of the movies, I think First Contact really tried. It attempted to figure out what would make a good movie, how to use the cast effectively, and how to take what TNG did and put it on the big screen. I think every other TNG movie utterly failed at this, being a combination of laziness, stupidity, and boredom. Also, unlike the rest of them, it told a story worth telling. Even though I don't think it was necessary to stick the TNG crew in the middle of that moment, it was a lot more interesting and satisfying than the bad-guys-with-a-big-weapon-going-to-blow-up-some-planet plot the other three shared.

I loathe Generations. Hate, hate, hate it. I think it's a waste of McDonald, Shatner, and the TNG crew. The only thing dumber than the story is how the characters inside of it act in order to go through the motions of the extremely by-the-numbers plot. I personally found it an insulting send-off for Kirk, but I don't think anyone escapes the movie well.

Insurrection is a middling TNG episode. That almost says it all. I kind of don't like it because it starts borrowing from Generations, of all things.

I've already had more than my say about Nemesis. I'd rather watch just about anything.
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#1203 davo1224

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:36 PM

The thing that bothered me about First Contact is that the Borg lost all their credibility/power after Locutus was used to defeat them. The episode where they helped a Borg get an individual personality was a cool revisiting but that was about as much as I could take. There's also the fact that the time travelling made absolutely no sense and was lazily done.

#1204 blandstalker

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 01:43 AM

I can't really disagree with your criticisms. I'm still not enthusiastic of even the concept of a "Borg Queen", which just seems wrong on every level.

That said, I still think First Contact, flaws and all, is better than:

- the Cosmic Bluebird of Happiness (aka the Nexus) and the utterly bankrupt idea of being able to appear at any place or time and choosing one that is stupidly ineffective

- the stupefying mediocrity of Insurrection that leaves me unable to remember much of anything good or bad, except that face stretching silliness

- pretty much everything in Nemesis
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#1205 Friend of Sonic

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 03:32 AM

I dunno, not that it's the same concept, but I also think it was a little ridiculous after they kidnapped Picard to use him as the Borg's ambassador to the Federation. Something like that should have been irrelevant since they know they could plow through all of the Federation ships once they knew all of their secrets. What's the point of communicating to the people they were about to kill/assimilate?
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#1206 Clak

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 01:00 PM

Well for that matter, why do the Borg always give a warning as they're about to destroy/assimilate a ship? We are the Borg, resistance is futile etc.....
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#1207 blandstalker

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 01:18 PM

I think it is the same concept. Both were intended to focus a story that really couldn't have worked otherwise for a viewing audience.

In Best of Both Worlds, the idea is to make it personal and horrifying. We'd been given the idea of assimilation, but never seen it done. While there'd be some impact from Red Shirt #27, there's much more from using a cast member. It brings immediacy to assimilation. Picard was a bold choice and it made for memorable TV. I still remember that broadcast.

You could argue that the Borg were just trying something new. Internally, they think assimilation is a great thing, so they were just trying to get someone to evangelize for them, not realizing how horrific it would seem to humans. It's not an unworkable idea.

Also recall that thanks to Seven and the later TNG episodes, the Borg have been demystified and explained. At the time in TNG, they were much less well understood, and the idea of a spokesperson, while not strictly necessary, didn't seem illogical. We only had the word of Q, who isn't exactly the most honest source of information.

Then again, if they could simply waltz in and steal Picard, what stopped them from doing that to the entire bridge crew at once? Or the entire crew? Problem solved.

Remember that with TNG, they only wrote as far as the first half for all their cliff hangers. All they needed to do was get to that point where Locutus addresses the audience for the audience to go "Whoa, wicked!" and then attempt to make it all work and make sense later. This is why TNG two-parters don't have the greatest track records.

The Borg Queen was necessitated by First Contact being a movie. Movies need villains. As a hive mind, the Borg should have no leaders or spokespersons, nor should it need any, but the audience needs someone to focus on and hiss at. A bunch of indistinguishable drones would be boring and confusing. Taking an Enterprise crewmate had been done and would be creepy (although, actually, to Data, it would probably make the most sense).

The question becomes: do these compromises ultimately work?

I find that hard to answer with Best of Both Worlds, because while I believe Part 1 is one of the best TNG episodes, it's kind of a cheat. It's easy to make Part 1 good because you can set up any kind of hopeless, dire, or exciting situation. The real art comes in resolving it all in a satisfying way. I don't think Part 2 does this. Can you fairly judge the parts separately? Is it the fault of Part 1 or Part 2 that the idea of a Borg spokesperson is never adequately justified?

In contrast, I'm a little easier on First Contact because it's a 2 hour movie, and with 7 cast members + guest stars, plot, sfx, etc, there's a lot to juggle. The "Borg Queen" is a way to get at essential Borg-ness while still making the movie tight and comprehensible to the average viewer. On balance, I think it works and isn't too great a compromise. In the end, it doesn't make the Borg any worse (if anything, First Contact was a big step up for them, after their neutering in Descent) and it doesn't negatively impact any of the TNG characters. Also, even if the idea is suspect, Alice Krige was a kickass Borg Queen and easily the best TNG movie villain.

Where Trek fell down with the Borg Queen was Voyager, where they had tons of time to explore or explain the concept and, if anything, made it dumber. Of course, Voyager did that with everything.
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#1208 dothog

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 03:43 PM

My gut feeling is that, while they were eager to put a "face" on the swedes, they were even more excited about sexing up Data. It's something the TV broadcast wanted, they love the goddamn emo chip, and to take it a step further on film had to be very tempting. That emphasized the perceived need for the Queen even more -- you kill two subplot birds with one character stone.

This is entirely hypothetical, but had a Seven-type character occurred to them back then, they might've included her as a rogue Borg/smarter Hugh to pursue Data as a mate and forgotten about the need for a Queen (as a face of the Borg) entirely. JLP certainly could've held that B story if it were just about monomania and genocide.

That being said, I understand the decision (i.e. "movie" vs. "film"), and the performance for the queen is good. I just resent the borg because it's such an obvious choice in an otherwise fun flick. So to reiterate others, ingenious scifi isn't the success of the movie. In just about every scene with the crew, they've got that laid-back chemistry going on that the broadcasts usually reserved for the last 5 minutes (e.g. poker game) of very special episodes. That's where it succeeds, they were able to give us that feeling for nearly ALL of its running time. It's 100% TNG comfort food:
  • Riker's extra smirky;
  • Geordi's vogue-ing statue poses;
  • Data's hot to trot with Emotion Chip 2.0 and forearm foreplay;
  • Troi's drunk;
  • Worf's kicking ass and administering Borg-arm tourniquets;
  • JLP's got a hardon full of borg hate (plus Dixon holofun!);
  • Even Barclay's up in this piece with awkwardness.
Only Beverly's left out of the action. (Or maybe she isn't, am I forgetting something?) Anyhow, that's some expertly played fan service.

I can see how people cut down First Contact (a friend sent me a link of the Phantom Menace guy going after First Contact), and I don't disagree with a lot of it. But to me it's the only TNG movie that feels true to broadcast. Everything else with the TNG cast feels like a shitty generic action movie with TNG plastering.

Also, back on the swedish menace, blandstalker's on the point, I think. The execution of the borg story lines was always sloppy IMO, whether it's TNG or VOY. It was always hard to reconcile the existence of the borg, the federation's position, and just the mechanics of assimilation. That's one of the automatic benefits of DS9: as far as I can recall, the borg aren't featured in any episode. Good on 'em!

Bland, you're well informed on a lot of the behind the scenes/production stuff: isn't there a story about how the borg were to be used? I recall reading somewhere that the "Great War" concept used in DS9 was originally intended to play out in TNG with the borg. I'm probably off, I just need to google this for myself.

Edited by dothog, 05 July 2012 - 03:53 PM.

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#1209 pacifickarma

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 04:22 PM

I always thought of the Borg as space's version of ants or bees. The idea of a "queen" works perfectly with that.

#1210 davo1224

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:01 AM

Queen bees don't have personality though. They just keep everything in tact. The Borg Queen was awful :(

#1211 Friend of Sonic

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:07 AM

Blandstalker, and a few of you others, your Trek posts are so goddamn entertaining to read. Seriously, they keep me entertained at work.
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#1212 Clak

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 05:54 PM

One of the worst lines in any of the TNG movies I think has to be in Insurrection when Troi and Crusher were discussing their tits. I know it was fan service, and I know Data goes and says it later to great comedy relief (Data was turned into the comic relief in that movie), but it was just awful and really out of character. When has any female character in ST history ever discussed anything like that?
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#1213 davo1224

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:44 AM

I never watched the series until now so hopefully something of greater consequence happens afterwards, but did they really just wrap up "The Siege" on DS9 with the two plotters (Vedic Wynn and the other dude) essentially saying "brb" and Lee dying? THEN act like nothing happened in the next episode?

#1214 ITDEFX

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:49 PM

OK...enough talk......lets talk about the upcoming TNG HD S1 BR! You know before I was like on the fence about getting it as it's going to be grainy as hell and the price, but now that I have some extra BB credit from that trade in promo, the price and some newly released screenshots, I am in for this one!

http://tng.trekcore....ndex.html#minos

http://tng.trekcore....LANET_AFTER.jpg

wow that's just beautiful.

#1215 Clak

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:41 PM

I might buy the later seasons, never cared for the earlier seasons anyway, HD or not.
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“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#1216 ITDEFX

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:00 PM

:drool:
http://tng.trekcore....ex.html#news1fx
http://tng.trekcore....253607218_o.jpg

I am wondering if they are using the early season model shots or the newer one they made for season 4 and up? Probably the season 4 since it has more detail......anyone have a comparison shot of the two models?

eh...wait what green tractor beam? I thought it was suppose to be blue?

I wonder why these space shots have a lot of grain? Even on the tractor beam and Crysta-line Entity (which was redone with modern CG). Maybe to match the graininess of the rest of the show?

#1217 ITDEFX

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:39 PM

Holy shit! IGN gave it a 9!!

http://www.ign.com/a...-blu-ray-review

I really can't believe Paramount went all out for TNG.

#1218 Friend of Sonic

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 04:57 AM

I won't lie, I am getting excited. I'm justifying my day one purchases of all of these sets to somehow send the indirect message "DO DS9 NEXT"
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#1219 ITDEFX

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:18 PM

I won't lie, I am getting excited. I'm justifying my day one purchases of all of these sets to somehow send the indirect message "DO DS9 NEXT"



Problem is that they are taking their sweet ass time remastering each season of TNG. I would be surprised if DS9 HD doesn't come out until it's 25th anniversary which is in 2018 :( By that time, we may be ready for a newer HD format to replace BR.

#1220 Clak

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:26 PM

Weren't DS9 and VOY done completely on tape, which would make it all but impossible to remaster in an HD format?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#1221 ITDEFX

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 04:33 PM

Weren't DS9 and VOY done completely on tape, which would make it all but impossible to remaster in an HD format?


Good question......I need to find my DS9 Companion book...I am sure the answers are in there.

http://tng.trekcore....ray/okuda1.html

After reading this, I ask myself, with Star Trek 2009 being so successful and saving the franchise, why didn't paramount/cbs began work on TNG years ago in order to make it for the 25th anniversary? I am sure fans would have loved it if we got all 7 seasons released this year like they did with the DVD releases..yes I know big time clean up and effects had to be done, but 3 years would have given them a head start.

#1222 shrike4242

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 05:04 PM

Holy shit! IGN gave it a 9!!

http://www.ign.com/a...-blu-ray-review

I really can't believe Paramount went all out for TNG.

Don't put much faith in an IGN review of a BluRay movie/TV show.

I've seen them give good reviews to items that other sites didn't and IGN was more in the wrong than right.

Wait until Blu-Ray.com, HighDefDigest.com, AVSForum.com, DVDTalk.com or some SciFi sites like io9.com or DenOfGeek.com get their hands on it.

#1223 Friend of Sonic

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:09 PM

I believe this is like TNG, where the footage was shot on film but immediately transferred to video for editing. So they just go to the negatives and get to work. I could be wrong on that though?

#1224 Javery

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:17 PM

Man, Voyager is bad. I just started watching it on Netflix. The good news is that for the most part I don't remember a damn thing so it is like watching it for the first time.

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#1225 pacifickarma

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:35 PM

Man, Voyager is bad. I just started watching it on Netflix. The good news is that for the most part I don't remember a damn thing so it is like watching it for the first time.


My uncle was probably the least-used actor on that show. On another note, I hear Chakotay's nephew is pretty awesome!

#1226 ITDEFX

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:45 PM

My uncle was probably the least-used actor on that show. On another note, I hear Chakotay's nephew is pretty awesome!


who? Garrett Wang?

#1227 ITDEFX

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:46 PM

I believe this is like TNG, where the footage was shot on film but immediately transferred to video for editing. So they just go to the negatives and get to work. I could be wrong on that though?



I think you are right...it's shot on film then video for post.

#1228 keithp

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:41 PM

Man, Voyager is bad. I just started watching it on Netflix. The good news is that for the most part I don't remember a damn thing so it is like watching it for the first time.


Hey, I got jumped in the alley and they beat my head in. I also got amnesia. My face healed, though, and since I don't remember it happening I'm taking a shortcut through the alley again. ;)

More on point, you couldn't pay me to re-watch Voyager, with the exception of a few episodes during the later seasons.

I'd rather get beat up in an alley.

#1229 shrike4242

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:14 PM

Some LeVar Burton commentary about TNG:

http://io9.com/59250...d-his-sexuality

#1230 Clak

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:14 PM

:rofl: So Geordi had a jheri curl?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift