2009 MLB Discussion Thread

Can someone explain to me why we still use umps at all? I dream of a stable, definite strike zone. The variance of strikes is completely absurd.

Keep the guys calling outs on bases if you must, but there is no reason at all to not let the machine call balls and strikes.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']It looked like Howard was starting to go step on first, heard the out call then threw to second.

So what would the umps rule if there was replay? Ignore that the call fucked Howard up and have the bases loaded? Factor that in and give the out at first with runners on second and third? Just too much subjectivity for me.

And baseball is too damn slow and boring already without more use of replay slowing things down.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the call didn't really screw Howard up. If he was going by what the umpire called, why did he throw to second? All he had to do was step on first for the double play. He threw to second, because he remembered Posada was running, and that he had a chance at turning the double play. He didn't realize until after the play that the umpire had called Damon out on the line.

But you are on the right course, though. There will be calls that simply cannot be overturned, no matter how horrible they are, because the original call dictates how the players react. I remember a game last year, I think between the Yankees and Orioles, where the home plate umpire called a batter out on strikes, even though the third strike was dropped or in the dirt and no tag was made. The umpires came together, and the batter was still out, because what can you do? The Yankees started leaving the field. They saw no reason to make a play. The batter was already out.

As far as subjectivity goes, there already is a lot of subjectivity in all forms of officiating. But you are right that a play like last night's would be a hard one to rule on.

[quote name='speedracer']Can someone explain to me why we still use umps at all? I dream of a stable, definite strike zone. The variance of strikes is completely absurd.

Keep the guys calling outs on bases if you must, but there is no reason at all to not let the machine call balls and strikes.[/QUOTE]

Oh, God, no. That's a great aspect of baseball. Working the strike zone and the home plate umpire. It is nice that all of the technology has gotten rid off the massively large strike zones that guys like Maddux, Glavine, and Pedro use to have, but if it was used as the actual home plate umpire, I doubt I would watch baseball again. It would take a lot of the charm of the game away.
 
Yeah, it's definitely part of the charm.

Same with bang-bang plays like the short hop and the Utley play at first. I'd rather just leave it alone and leave replay for home run calls where there's no subjectivity involved in what happens if the call is overturned.
 
Indeed. Bang-bang plays that can go either way are part of the game. Sometimes, a game comes down to luck. And let's face it, there is plenty about sports that goes beyond the officiating that often has little to do with skill and a lot to do with luck. Guess the right pitch. Get the right bounce. Guy slips on wet glass. Player loses a ball in the lights.
 
dmaul apparently didn't read any of my post about having the Crew Chief off the field in his own booth with access to the video feed. It wouldn't take any time to check with him and have the correct call made. If a catcher can go out to the mound six times in one inning, there's enough time to make the right calls.

I'll never argue that the strike zone should be conformed because pitching to what the umpire is calling IS part of being a great pitcher (for all the bitching about Rivera getting that called strike on Howard, everybody fails to notice that the ump was giving the outside strike all night, and Mo just picked up on what Burnett had already established).

However, a two out, rally killing missed call is too big, in my opinion, to call "charm of the game". Also, bigdaddybruce is exactly right. If Howard thought he caught the ball, stepping on first would have been the right play. I agree that it would have been tough to rule what "would" have happened on the play, but it sure as hell wouldn't have been two outs and inning over. Just like on ground ruled doubles, you make the call that's most fair. There's already plenty of subjectivity in baseball. Ultimately, getting the call right is far more important.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that "The umpires screwed the Yankees! The Phillies must be paying them!!!" like a lot of retards on the internet. I just think that play beyond any other this season calls for the expansion of replay. Obviously, nothing that would slow the game down, but it bothers me how "impossible" everybody makes it seem when Fox is able to have conclusive evidence within 15 seconds.
 
et tu, dmaul? ;)

I just don't see what's charming about a pitcher making an absolutely outstanding pitch, clipping the zone with just enough to punch out a great hitter... and a ball being called. That's not charming to me. That's dumb. If we were playing football and we had the *one* ref (not two!) stand 3 feet dead center behind the uprights and guess and then defended it with the idea that it's "charming", you'd get laughed out of the room.

If a guy throws a strike, he should be awarded with one. If a hitter lays off a junkball an inch and a half off the plate, he shouldn't be penalized because the damn ump is "feeling" the outside tonight.
 
[quote name='speedracer']et tu, dmaul? ;)

I just don't see what's charming about a pitcher making an absolutely outstanding pitch, clipping the zone with just enough to punch out a great hitter... and a ball being called. That's not charming to me. That's dumb. If we were playing football and we had the ref stand 3 feet dead center behind the uprights and guess, everyone would think that was insane.

If a guy throws a strike, he should be awarded with one. If a hitter lays off a junkball an inch and a half off the plate, he shouldn't be penalized because the damn ump is "feeling" the outside tonight.[/QUOTE]

But now it sounds like you're arguing for umpire consistency, which I don't think anybody would disagree with. If an umpire's strikezone is all over the place, that's bullshit. But if he's consistently calling the outside strike all night and the pitcher and hitter don't adjust to it, then they're just dumb.

Anybody recall Jerry Hairston bitching about an inside strike (which really wasn't even inside...Hairston just needs to learn where the plate is when he's crowding it) called on him on an 0-1 count in his first AB last night? Pedro came back and did the exact same thing to him in his second AB, and Hairston bitched AGAIN. That's his own stupidity. He struck out both times. Consistency is the most important factor. Once you learn what the umpire is calling, it's up to you what you do with it.
 
[quote name='speedracer']et tu, dmaul? ;)

I just don't see what's charming about a pitcher making an absolutely outstanding pitch, clipping the zone with just enough to punch out a great hitter... and a ball being called. That's not charming to me. That's dumb. If we were playing football and we had the *one* ref (not two!) stand 3 feet dead center behind the uprights and guess and then defended it with the idea that it's "charming", you'd get laughed out of the room.

If a guy throws a strike, he should be awarded with one. If a hitter lays off a junkball an inch and a half off the plate, he shouldn't be penalized because the damn ump is "feeling" the outside tonight.[/QUOTE]

Again, getting lucky and catching breaks is a part of sports. Is it fair that a team has a speedy runner on first, hits a ball into the corner, and some douche bag fan touches the ball? Or the ball bounces into the seats for a ground rule double, and the runner has to hold, even though he would have almost certainly scored? Or a batter hits a frozen rope right a fielder? Or a pitcher shatters a bat, but the ball flops in between an infielder and outfielder? Those things have little or nothing to do with skill, and a whole lot to do with luck. The same holds true of an umpire making a bad call or having a large or small strike zone. It's part of the game.

If you don't like the subjectivity that comes with officiating, you must also hate watching hockey, football, and basketball, because more subjectivity comes into play with those sports. Outside of the strike zone, everything else in baseball is pretty clear cut. Safe/out, fair/foul, etc. Yes, they can blow calls, but blown calls happen in all sports. In those other sports, though, you have penalties and fouls that are up to the opinion of the official. Many are blatant. Push a guy dribbling a basketball to the floor, that's a foul. Bear hug a defensive end to the ground, that's a hold. But how many subtle little things don't get called or do get called, and they are questioned? Should we get ride of all officials, and for those sports, just have a panel of people in a room somewhere decide things? That obviously sounds silly, but so does the idea of having a machine call balls and strikes to almost all baseball fans.

All I know is that I don't want machines umpiring a game. And again, I really doubt the vast majority of baseball fans want it, either. To be truthful, despite all of the bad umpiring, you're the first person this year I have heard even suggest it, especially considering the home plate umpiring has probably been the best aspects of most of these crews. Most games I have seen have been called very, very, very consistent, which as n8rockerasu pointed out is really the key.
 
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[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Who had the bright idea of putting a camera there and have it basically hang even with or a little over the wall?[/QUOTE]

Someone who said "Do you know the odds of somebody hitting the ball in this exact tiny spot?!?" haha. Nice game from the Yanks tonight! Pettitte didn't look sharp early, but he battled, and other than Jayson Werth's feats of strength, the Phillies really had nothing (considering the other 2 runs came on a bases loaded walk and a sac fly). And ya know what, I'd even take one of those runs off and call it a quality start since Andy got one back with an RBI hit of his own!

One thing I found amusing at the end of the game was when they were showing the fans sitting in the stands all depressed that their team was losing, and they were all wearing their Halloween costumes, haha. I wondered how stupid they felt watching their team lose dressed up like idiots. That gave me a good laugh. Great night! Hope CC and the bats can keep it going tomorrow! :)
 
Andy came up really big, in my opinion, because he did not have his good cutter and was not hitting all his spots. He could have folded, and a lot of pitchers probably would have, but he did battle and gave the Yankees enough to win.

And how impressive was Marte? Wow. Last night, after a year and a half, the pitcher the Yankees thought they traded for finally decided to show up. He's actually had some decent appearances already in the playoffs, but last night was dominating. To strike out Howard and Werth, while pretty much making them look silly in the process, was very big for a couple of reasons. One, it gives Joe a little confidence in someone other than Mo. Two, it lets the Phillies know that there is someone else out there, so that they don't have the Yankee mindset of, "Well, let's work the count and hope we get to the bullpen." Joba wasn't too bad, either, though that rocket from Utley initially worried me.

Lastly, why are people calling Joe's decision to go with three starters an act of desperation? There are professional pitchers. They can absolutely pitch on three days rest. CC has already shown it this postseason, and AJ has good career numbers when doing so. The only guy I have a bit of concern about is Andy, because his career numbers aren't great, and he's definitely a guy that benefits from rest at this point in his career. If I were Joe, the three starter thing would really depend on what happens tonight. If the Yankees go up 3-1, I would roll the dice and just let Chad Guadin start Game 5. If you lose, you lose. If Lee carves us up again, chances are we would lose no matter who pitches. But if you let Chad pitch, and they lose, the Yankees head back to the Bronx still up 3-2 AND with Burnett fully rested for Game 6.
 
Cano looks completely lost at the plate. Of course, any Yankee fan would have seen this coming. Cano is always a guy who pads his numbers against sub-par pitching. I would say sit him Game 5, but without the DH, the Yankee line-up already starts to look a lot shorter and lot less powerful. The extremely slim chance that Cano might run into a fastball is probably enough to keep him in there.
 
Gutter Trash!

A-Rod's gonna get his ring and Johnny Damon the sellout is laughing at all the Boston fans right now.
Where is God when you need him?

Funny comment I found on ESPN by bitter Phillie fans: "WTF? They should just finish the series with the Yankees clubbing the Phillies players with gold bars."
 
[quote name='Monsta Mack']Where is God when you need him?[/QUOTE]

He's been watching over this series. He's having the Yankees win it. If the Phillies managed to win twice in two years, I would have to believe that then there would be no god.
 
As do I, although I predicted 6, and I do believe it'll still be that. Cliff Lee I would assume is pitching tomorrow.
 
[quote name='Monsta Mack']Gutter Trash!

A-Rod's gonna get his ring and Johnny Damon the sellout is laughing at all the Boston fans right now.
Where is God when you need him?

Funny comment I found on ESPN by bitter Phillie fans: "WTF? They should just finish the series with the Yankees clubbing the Phillies players with gold bars."[/QUOTE]


God left when the Red Sox turned into the Roid Sox after Man Ram and Big Poopi I mean Big Fattie got caught cheating. It's funny how things worked out for the Roid Sox. First place and winning the first 8 games against the Yankees. Then the 2004 and 2007 teams get a huge asterisk and tainted memories.

I am suprised that God didn't slip and fall closing the game out tonight. There must have been a huge pile of throwup out there following the top of the 9th. I feel sorry for the clubhouse guy for the Phillies who has to clean Lidge's crap stained pants.
 
You keep bringing this up... How about those 2000 Yankees that had 13 guys on their 25 man roster who were linked to steroids or HGH?

Our roided up players staged the greatest comeback in the history of sports against your roided up players, who staged the biggest choke in the history of the world. You're still not over it I suppose.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']God left when the Red Sox turned into the Roid Sox after Man Ram and Big Poopi I mean Big Fattie got caught cheating. It's funny how things worked out for the Roid Sox. First place and winning the first 8 games against the Yankees. Then the 2004 and 2007 teams get a huge asterisk and tainted memories.

I am suprised that God didn't slip and fall closing the game out tonight. There must have been a huge pile of throwup out there following the top of the 9th. I feel sorry for the clubhouse guy for the Phillies who has to clean Lidge's crap stained pants.[/QUOTE]

Mr Pot, please stop calling the kettle black
 
[quote name='dafoomie']You keep bringing this up... How about those 2000 Yankees that had 13 guys on their 25 man roster who were linked to steroids or HGH?

Our roided up players staged the greatest comeback in the history of sports against your roided up players, who staged the biggest choke in the history of the world. You're still not over it I suppose.[/QUOTE]


How is it the biggest choke when your team cheated? Sorry but the 04 Roid Sox have a huge Asterisk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That year doesn't count.
 
[quote name='tcrash247']fuck the Yankees. That is all.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. And the 90% of their fans who come out when they are in the World Series.
 
[quote name='DomLando']Agreed. And the 90% of their fans who come out when they are in the World Series.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but this isn't true at all and I'm not even a Yankees fan. They draw over 3 million fans a season at the stadium and there are Yankees fans EVERYWHERE. It would be like saying there are only Cowboys or Lakers fans when those teams are good too.

The Yankees are one of the best teams in professional sports (if not the best) - if anything I would say there are quite a few more Phillies fans in the past 3 years than any other time in memory. You couldn't pay people to fill up Veterans Stadium a few years ago when the Phillies were terrible...
 
There are definitely a lot of bandwagon Yankee fans, but like you said, they are one of the most successful professional sports team. That's bound to happen. They definitely have a very large, steady following. Not only do they draw the largest home crowds, but whenever they go on the road, they pretty much help other teams get their largest crowds of the year. That is why teams hate having their home openers against the Yankees.
 
[quote name='javeryh']Sorry but this isn't true at all and I'm not even a Yankees fan. They draw over 3 million fans a season at the stadium and there are Yankees fans EVERYWHERE. It would be like saying there are only Cowboys or Lakers fans when those teams are good too.

The Yankees are one of the best teams in professional sports (if not the best) - if anything I would say there are quite a few more Phillies fans in the past 3 years than any other time in memory. You couldn't pay people to fill up Veterans Stadium a few years ago when the Phillies were terrible...[/QUOTE]

Ok I was exaggerating a little. I am a Mets fan so that should explain it. Don't get me wrong I know there are fans everywhere and they have a ton of knowledgeable long time fans. I just hate the ones that come out during the playoffs/World Series. It just annoys me that they do not watch a game all year and then the Yankees are in the World Series and all of a sudden they are die hard fans. It's like that with every team though, so I guess I should not complain. Living in NJ/NY you just see all these fans who have not said a word all year about the Yankees and now they have their jersey and hat on and it just seems like this happens so often because the Yankees are usually good. Sorry I am just frustrated with the Mets and the two teams I have to watch in the World Series...
 
[quote name='DomLando']Ok I was exaggerating a little. I am a Mets fan so that should explain it. Don't get me wrong I know there are fans everywhere and they have a ton of knowledgeable long time fans. I just hate the ones that come out during the playoffs/World Series. It just annoys me that they do not watch a game all year and then the Yankees are in the World Series and all of a sudden they are die hard fans. It's like that with every team though, so I guess I should not complain. Living in NJ/NY you just see all these fans who have not said a word all year about the Yankees and now they have their jersey and hat on and it just seems like this happens so often because the Yankees are usually good. Sorry I am just frustrated with the Mets and the two teams I have to watch in the World Series...[/QUOTE]

I'm a Mets fan too! I have been rooting for the Yankees big time though because I hate the Phillies and all Philadelphia sports and the city in general just sucks other than the cheese steaks. You have to be rooting for the Yanks, right???

EDIT: I know exactly where you are coming from especially after the disaster of a season we just went through.
 
[quote name='javeryh']I'm a Mets fan too! I have been rooting for the Yankees big time though because I hate the Phillies and all Philadelphia sports and the city in general just sucks other than the cheese steaks. You have to be rooting for the Yanks, right???

EDIT: I know exactly where you are coming from especially after the disaster of a season we just went through.[/QUOTE]

Tell you the truth I am not really rooting for anyone as I hate both teams with a passion. I just love baseball so I am watching the games haha.
 
I definitely am not in love with Joe's decision to go with EVERYONE on short rest, not up 3-1 in the series. With the way Lee has pitched this postseason, you're potentially wasting a possible good start by Burnett. I definitely think it could be a massive boost for the Phils if they win a 2-1 game tonight, much more of a boost than it would be if they beat Gaudin and then still had a fully-rested Burnett waiting for them back in New York. Now, if they win, they will have Andy waiting for them on three days rest, and any Yankee fan knows that he is a guy who benefits from extra rest at this point in his career. I just don't like this move at all.

Oh, and let's not forget that, with Burnett pitching, that means no Jorge, we assume. So, just look at the Yankee lineup with no Jorge and no Matsui. Wooooooooooow. That bottom five is gonna be awful. Who is gonna protect A-Rod? Cano? Swisher? Again, really bad move.
 
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The Yankees are the popular team to like. There are people with Yankees hats everywhere but ask them to name 2 players on the team and see what they say. If you really like the Yankees, have a reason please. But honestly, when the Yankees buy half their team I would expect them to steamroll everyone in the playoffs. I love the Phillies, but their payroll doesn't match the Skankees. Yes, I'm sure I opened a can of worms just now but I don't care at this point.
 
[quote name='tcrash247']But honestly, when the Yankees buy half their team I would expect them to steamroll everyone in the playoffs. I love the Phillies, but their payroll doesn't match the Skankees. Yes, I'm sure I opened a can of worms just now but I don't care at this point.[/QUOTE]

The baseball playoffs are a total crapshoot. It's not about money spent it's about who is the hottest team. The 2006 St. Louis Cardinals were awful and won the whole thing. Probably the worst team I've ever seen win anything - 82 or 83 wins on the season or some bullshit. By your logic the Yankees should win every single year since they spend the most money but that isn't the case.
 
100% correct. There have been been plenty of teams over the last 10 years that tried to "buy" championships, and they were utter failures. Some of those Oriole and Ranger teams of the late '90s were absolutely stacked with talent but didn't win anything. Buying a championship isn't as easy as people make it out to be. If it was, the Yankees wouldn't have had all the years between WS appearances.
 
That's why I said they "should" win and I do believe they should win every year because of the talent they can afford. I guess they're just good at knowing what players to buy. But what do they do when they don't win? They buy more players the next year.

I guess its time I start looking towards next season and hope the Phils can get to the WS again. It'll be interesting to see who stays and who goes. I can only hope they keep at least Lee, Werth and Howard. And please, get your closer figured the fuck out because I'm done with Lidge.
 
I agree with you guys. The fact is, everybody loves a winner. I'm originally from NY, but relocated to NC, and in 2004, when the Red Sox became "America's darling", you'd be amazed at all the Sox hats that showed up down here. In North-freaking Carolina! And people claiming that they've been fans for years. It made me sick. And yeah, now I've seen the same thing with Phillies hats.

I guess it's not terrible if it's something that gets you into the sport of baseball. I mean, everybody remembers their first World Series viewing experience. Although, mine was seeing the Reds and A's in 1990. I was 8, and was a Yankee fan then, just like I am now. I suffered through the Danny Tartabull years, and the players strike of '94 that saw my team's first really good shot at a title in 15 years taken away (most people probably forget that the Expos were also awesome that year).

Yes, the late 90's were a magical time. A time that saw a revival of the team's popularity. Thanks to the likes of Cone, Pettitte, Jeter, Williams, O'Neill, Martinez, and the almighty Rivera, the old Stadium began filling up every night, and every player in MLB wanted to be a Yankee. Each year the team added guys who were chasing that elusive World Series ring. David Wells ('97), Scott Brosius ('98), Roger Clemens ('99), Denny Neagle ('00)

Since then, the team kept bringing in big names, but the chemistry just wasn't the same.

"Big Name" Acquisitions Since 2001

2001: Mike Mussina
2002: Jason Giambi, Robin Ventura, Raul Mondesi
2003: Jose Contreras, Felix Heredia, Aaron Boone, Todd Zeile, Hideki Matsui
2004: Kevin Brown, Tom Gordon, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza, Paul Quantrill, Tanyon Sturtze, Javier Vasquez, Miguel Cairo, Tony Clark, Travis Lee, John Olerud, Alex Rodriguez, Kenny Lofton, Gary Sheffield (Jesus Christ, I had forgotten how many new faces were brought in that year! No wonder they blew their shit to Boston. They were barely a team.)
2005: Shawn Chacon, Alan Embree, Randy Johnson, Al Leiter, Carl Pavano, Felix Rodriguez, Aaron Small, Jaret Wright, Matt Lawton, Tony Womack
2006: Brian Bruney, Octavio Dotel, Kyle Farnsworth, Cory Lidle, Mike Myers, Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner, Ron Villone, Sal Fasano, Kelly Stinnett, Craig Wilson, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon, Aaron Guiel
2007: Chris Britton, Kei Igawa, Luis Vizcaino, Jose Molina, Wilson Betemit, Doug Mientkiewicz, Josh Phelps
2008: Latroy Hawkins, Damaso Marte, Billy Traber, Chad Moeller, Ivan Rodriguez, Morgan Ensberg, Cody Ransom, Richie Sexson, Xavier Nady
2009: AJ Burnett, Chad Gaudin, Sergio Mitre, CC Sabathia, Brett Tomko, Josh Towers, Angel Berroa, Jerry Hairston Jr, Mark Teixeira, Eric Hinske, Nick Swisher

Now, they've finally put it back together again. A lot of people think chemistry doesn't exist...that good players just go out and play. But if you haven't been able to notice this year's team enjoying the game, there's something wrong with you.

Sure, they have a high payroll, but so did the teams from 2004-2008. After Matsui and Sheffield came back from injury in 2006, that team should have lit up the night sky with a lineup of Damon, Jeter, Abreu, A-Rod, Giambi, Sheffield, Matsui, Posada, Cano. But they didn't. In the end, good players don't equal a good team. The 2009 Yankees are a good team. And coming from a lifelong fan, it's nice to see.
 
[quote name='tcrash247']I guess its time I start looking towards next season and hope the Phils can get to the WS again. It'll be interesting to see who stays and who goes. I can only hope they keep at least Lee, Werth and Howard. And please, get your closer figured the fuck out because I'm done with Lidge.[/QUOTE]

This is why Philly fans make me mental. ;) I got 2 separate emails from two of my best friends (also Phillies fans who I wanted to kill all season) saying basically the same thing. Never admit defeat until it is actually over. Jesus - you have Cliff Lee going tonight so there is a good chance you take it back to NY and then you get Pettitte on 3 days rest (I'd like my chances against him on short rest since he had a crappy season and he's 37) and then it's Game 7 where anything can happen.

The top of the Phillies lineup (1-7) is as good as the Yankees and arguably better since I'm not a huge Swisher fan (love the guy but not the player), Cano can't hit against anyone good or in the cold and Posada is average at best. I hate Howard since he strikes out all the time but Utley is sick, Ibanez had a good year, Werth is a superstar now and Rollins can be good when he is playing well even though he totally sucks this year (I think he had a sub .300 OBP which is pretty funny). The pitching is even too except for the closer (obviously a big deal) and I also think Hamels blows and played way way way above his talent level last year.

Hopefully the Yankees will close it out tonight though.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']Now, they've finally put it back together again. A lot of people think chemistry doesn't exist...that good players just go out and play. But if you haven't been able to notice this year's team enjoying the game, there's something wrong with you.

Sure, they have a high payroll, but so did the teams from 2004-2008. After Matsui and Sheffield came back from injury in 2006, that team should have lit up the night sky with a lineup of Damon, Jeter, Abreu, A-Rod, Giambi, Sheffield, Matsui, Posada, Cano. But they didn't. In the end, good players don't equal a good team. The 2009 Yankees are a good team. And coming from a lifelong fan, it's nice to see.[/QUOTE]

I agree - I'm a Mets fan but the 2009 Yankees are a really likable team. Lots of personality and scrappy guys. Burnett with the pies, Swisher pitching, Teixeira all laid back, Jeter still being Jeter, etc. Too bad Moose isn't playing this year - they could have used him and it would have been nice for him to win a title (assuming the Yankees close it out).
 
[quote name='javeryh']This is why Philly fans make me mental. ;) I got 2 separate emails from two of my best friends (also Phillies fans who I wanted to kill all season) saying basically the same thing. Never admit defeat until it is actually over. Jesus - you have Cliff Lee going tonight so there is a good chance you take it back to NY and then you get Pettitte on 3 days rest (I'd like my chances against him on short rest since he had a crappy season and he's 37) and then it's Game 7 where anything can happen.[/QUOTE]

I know I really should look at it this way, but its tough given the way the games are going so far. I do expect Cliff to win tonight and Pedro to put in a good showing in Game 6 but still be beaten by Pettite and the Yankees bats. Maybe he'll make it interesting and start beaning players. I would assume they'd pitch Hamels in Game 7 if it comes to that and I expect him to get rocked again. I don't know what he and Lidge did last year, but they did almost a complete 180 this year in performance. We'll see...

Also, I did kinda hate Howard last year but he did extremely better this year. He got his average about 20 points and cut down on his strikeouts a lot. He seems to be more patient at bat. But in this WS, he's back to Howard of last year, swinging at anything he can. I don't know what the hell happened to Rollins this year, but he picked it up a bit towards the end. Ibanez had an amazing first half and good second half. Utley is Utley, always performs great. But Ruiz was probably the biggest surprise, where did his bat come from?? He's impressed me almost as much as Werth.
 
[quote name='tcrash247']The Yankees are the popular team to like. There are people with Yankees hats everywhere but ask them to name 2 players on the team and see what they say. If you really like the Yankees, have a reason please. But honestly, when the Yankees buy half their team I would expect them to steamroll everyone in the playoffs. I love the Phillies, but their payroll doesn't match the Skankees. Yes, I'm sure I opened a can of worms just now but I don't care at this point.[/QUOTE]

If you're going to talk shit about "people who don't know anything", at least know what the fuck you're talking about.

Yankees 2009 Roster

Pitchers
91 Aceves, Alfredo (homegrown)
99 Bruney, Brian (FA signing)
34 Burnett, A.J. (FA signing)
62 Chamberlain, Joba (homegrown)
48 Coke, Phil (homegrown)
41 Gaudin, Chad (trade...has nothing to do with money)
65 Hughes, Phil (homegrown)
43 Marte, Dámaso (trade...has nothing to do with money)
46 Pettitte, Andy (homegrown)
42 Rivera, Mariano (homegrown)
30 Robertson, David (homegrown)
52 Sabathia, CC (FA signing)

Catchers
26 Molina, José (trade...has nothing to do with money)
20 Posada, Jorge (homegrown)

Infielders
24 Canó, Robinson (homegrown)
17 Hairston Jr., Jerry (trade...has nothing to do with money)
2 Jeter, Derek (homegrown)
13 Rodríguez, Álex (acquired through trade...but re-signed to big deal...I'll give you this one)
25 Teixeira, Mark (FA signing)

Outfielders
53 Cabrera, Melky (homegrown)
18 Damon, Johnny (FA signing)
11 Gardner, Brett (homegrown)
14 Hinske, Eric (trade...has nothing to do with money)
33 Swisher, Nick (trade...has nothing to do with money)

Designated Hitter
55 Matsui, Hideki (FA signing)

Where's this "half the team" you speak of? I'm not even going to consider players acquired through trades, because those are savvy GM moves and it's not like the Yanks hold teams at gunpoint and force them to take shitty deals. That leaves the Yankees with 7 players that they "bought".

By comparison, here's the Phillies roster
58 Bastardo, Antonio (homegrown)
56 Blanton, Joe (trade)
37 Durbin, Chad (FA signing)
47 Eyre, Scott (trade)
35 Hamels, Cole (homegrown)
43 Happ, J.A. (homegrown)
34 Lee, Cliff (trade)
54 Lidge, Brad (trade)
46 Madson, Ryan (homegrown)
45 Martínez, Pedro (FA signing)
39 Myers, Brett (homegrown)
61 Park, Chan Ho (FA signing)

Catchers
23 Bako, Paul (FA signing)
51 Ruiz, Carlos (homegrown)

Infielders
4 Bruntlett, Eric (trade)
19 Dobbs, Greg (FA signing)
7 Feliz, Pedro (FA signing)
6 Howard, Ryan (homegrown)
11 Rollins, Jimmy (homegrown)
26 Utley, Chase (homegrown)

Outfielders
10 Francisco, Ben (trade)
29 Ibañez, Raúl (FA signing)
12 Stairs, Matt (trade)
8 Victorino, Shane (acquired from Dodgers...but we'll call him homegrown)
28 Werth, Jayson (FA signing)

I count 8 signings for the Phils. Not to mention, the Yankees have a total of 12 homegrown players to the Phillies 10. Now, I'm not an idiot, and I will acknowledge that the players the Yankees have signed are bigger names. But that's what happens when you have a winning history. Don't believe me? Do you think Pedro or Ibanéz would have signed with Philly this year had they not just come off a World Series victory? It's easy to hate the man...until you become the man. Go ask Boston. They know a lot about it.
 
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You're right, I should have said almost half the starting lineup, not half the team, apologies. If the Phillies had an extra $161 million laying around they could have picked up Sabathia too. It seems as if a great player goes on the free agent market, you almost expect or wait for the Yankees to pick them up.
 
[quote name='tcrash247']You're right, I should have said almost half the starting lineup, not half the team, apologies. If the Phillies had an extra $161 million laying around they could have picked up Sabathia too. It seems as if a great player goes on the free agent market, you almost expect or wait for the Yankees to pick them up.[/QUOTE]

Brave coming back after you got it handed to you in that post. LOL.

I'll give it to you, you're going to see alot of Yankees hats and some are bandwagon some are legit. Think about how big New York is (population) now couple that with the history of the Yankees and that's going to equate for a large fan base. But you get super cool points for asking people to name 2 players on the Yankees team, do you fist pump a victory if someone can't? Anyways I saw a ton of Tampa Bay hats pop up last year and it's that way every year.

And you're right the Yankees do sign alot of FAs but most people forget how much of their talent is homegrown.
 
[quote name='tcrash247']You're right, I should have said almost half the starting lineup, not half the team, apologies. If the Phillies had an extra $161 million laying around they could have picked up Sabathia too. It seems as if a great player goes on the free agent market, you almost expect or wait for the Yankees to pick them up.[/QUOTE]

Really? Is this what we're doing now?


D. Jeter (homegrown)
J. Damon (FA signing)
M. Teixeira (FA signing)
A. Rodriguez (trade..but if you want to call it a signing, whatever)
J. Posada (homegrown)
H. Matsui (FA signing)
R. Cano (homegrown)
N. Swisher (trade)
M. Cabrera (homegrown)

CC Sabathia (FA Signing)
AJ Burnett (FA Signing)
Andy Pettitte (homegrown)

5 homegrown, 2 trades, 5 FA signings

J. Rollins (homegrown)
S. Victorino (homegrown)
C. Utley (homegrown)
R. Howard (homegrown)
J. Werth (FA signing)
R. Ibanez (FA signing)
M. Stairs (trade)
P. Feliz (FA signing)
C. Ruiz (homegrown)

Cliff Lee (trade)
Pedro Martinez (FA signing)
Cole Hamels (homegrown

6 homegrown, 2 trades, 4 FA signings

I'm seeing a difference of one. This is just such a dumb thing to argue about because in the end, the outcome of this series (and the last several World Series) will have nothing to do with money. Great players don't equal great teams. What is it about that that you don't understand?

The team that ends up winning will be the one that performed well in critical spots. The Phillies have plenty of good players. They managed to beat every team in baseball last year. And what did they do this year? They went out and got Raul Ibanez and Cliff Lee. I'm sure teams like the Marlins feel so much sympathy for you. Get over yourself!

If guys like Jimmy Rollins, Shane Victorino, Ryan Howard, Cole Hamels, and Brad Lidge were playing up to their potential...they'd probably be winning. Money has nothing to do with it.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']How is it the biggest choke when your team cheated? Sorry but the 04 Roid Sox have a huge Asterisk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That year doesn't count.[/QUOTE]
Its the biggest choke because the Yankees were at least as roided up if not moreso. Giambi, Arod, Sierra, Sheffield, Brown... The Red Sox were down 3 games to 0 in game 4, down 4-3 against Mariano Rivera in the 9th inning. Dave Roberts stole 2nd, and Bill Mueller hit a single to knock in the tying run. You know what happened next. Then the Yankees blew it again in Game 5 with a 2 run lead in the 8th inning. Greatest comeback, and biggest choke since the Nazis failed to take Stalingrad.

You'd have to asterisk everything after 1980 by that standard, including the Yankees from 96-00 and onward.
 
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Actually, Victorino isn't a homegrown Phil, either. They picked him up in the Rule 5, after he played about 40 games for San Diego. Not a big free agent signing or blockbuster trade, but still.

Anyway, Clueless Joe Part 2 may have very well handed the Phils this series. Andy in Game 6 is likely gonna be a disaster, and you don't know what CC is gonna give you in a Game 7. He hasn't looked that sharp in either start this series, and it often seems like the Phillie hitters, besides Utley, were getting themselves out. If they force a Game 7, though, they are gonna come to the park all fired up and may actually start hitting him hard. fucking Girardi.
 
Wouldn't be surprised to see this go to Game 7 with Pedro pitching game 6 vs Pettitte on short rest. It would be Hamels vs Sabathia, and Hamels has really sucked this postseason. Then again Sabathia has looked shaky even though Philly couldn't capitalize on it, but he'll be on normal rest.
 
I doubt they hand Hamels the ball, not after his "can't wait for the season to be over" comments. Of course, I don't know who they would hand the ball to in that case, but I don't think you can give it to Hamels. Anyone on any amount of rest would be better than him at this point. If it goes go 7, and they hand Hamels the ball, I will run to the Stadium and give Manuel a big kiss.
 
Ah, I can't be too upset about tonight. The biggest factor is, AJ is such a head case, there's no guarantee he wouldn't have done this same thing in game 6. IF he were actually a reliable pitcher, I wouldn't have had any problems in "giving" this game away by starting Gaudin. If this comes back to bite the Yankees, then that's what they get for only having a rotation with 3 decent pitchers. But I still like the idea of going with your best guns.

At least most of the team has put together good AB's tonight (although it would be great if Teixeira could just try to hit a single. He's killing so many rallies right now. But I have faith in Andy, and I have faith in the team's ability to hit Pedro in a championship game at the Stadium. Really, taking 2 of 3 in Philly is a big accomplishment as it is. It's just time for this team to buckle down and decide if they want to be champions.
 
I don't know any Yankee fan who doesn't have faith in Andy. But sorry, a lot of that faith goes away when pitching him on three days. It's really a disaster waiting to happen, in my opinion. His career numbers on 3 days are not that good to begin with, and at this point in this career, he definitely needs the rest.
 
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