Accepting Paypal friends & family/gifting payments on CAG. (Updated 6/15/2016)

[quote name='shrike4242']Elsewhere, here's a link that says there are no fees associated with it:
https://payments.amazon.com/sdui/sdui/personal/webpay/faq#wpFee
[/QUOTE]

That's just saying there are no fees to send money, which is the same on paypal, as the fees are incurred by the receiver.

I did notice in the UA that there is a personal account that you can make, which does not accept credit cards. Would this be the account type that people are using to not incur fees when receiving payments?
 
[quote name='token2k6']just a quick note, when you sign up for Amazon Payments any card you have linked on your Amazon account will get a pending $1 authorization charge. This caused all kinds of chaos when my wife called me up, asking what "stupid thing" I bought for a $1 and why I used a card we weren't supposed to be using b/c she got some email alert?..[/QUOTE]It's just an authorization and it drops off in a few days. Paypal does the same thing when verifying a card, so I'm not expecting anything different from Amazon Payments. Amazon itself does the same thing with a new payment method as well.

[quote name='Ryukahn']That's just saying there are no fees to send money, which is the same on paypal, as the fees are incurred by the receiver.

I did notice in the UA that there is a personal account that you can make, which does not accept credit cards. Would this be the account type that people are using to not incur fees when receiving payments?[/QUOTE]Since they're carbon-copying Paypal, I'd assume it's the same way for Amazon Payments equivalent, though again, it'll explain it somewhere in the FAQ and online help.

Found the fee information, so yes, it's like Paypal:
[quote name='From Amazon Payments UA']
9. Payment Terms

9.1 Our Fees. You agree to pay the applicable fees listed on our Fee Schedule ("Fees") whenever you use our Service either directly with us or our Affiliates or through a Provider's Application. Fees only apply when you receive funds so there is no fee for sending payments. If you use our Service through a Provider's Application, you are only responsible for the Fees associated with transactions that you authorize through that Application and for which the Provider notifies you that you are responsible when you register for or use the Application. If you are a Provider, you are responsible for the Fees associated with any transactions processed through your Application unless you or your Application (a) indicate that a user should be charged the applicable fees, (b) notify the user of the applicable Fees, and (c) obtain an authorization from the user. Providers are not permitted to hold funds on behalf of other users. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we reserve the right to change our Fees. All Balances and all fees, charges, and payments collected or paid through the Service are denominated in U.S. currency.[/quote]

Fee structure is completely like Paypal, as posted above.
 
So does this mean that proper procedure for accepting Paypal payments, unless specifically noted, we should assume the seller should be sent for example $30 for a purchase and NOT $31.20? That would make the process a bit easier.
 
[quote name='Lucavious']So does this mean that proper procedure for accepting Paypal payments, unless specifically noted, we should assume the seller should be sent for example $30 for a purchase and NOT $31.20? That would make the process a bit easier.[/QUOTE]

Currently, CAG sellers can tell you to pay the fees if they want, there is no rule against it so it's up to each individual CAG. Of course you can always choose to just not deal with them or tell them no on paying the fees.
 
[quote name='GraftonWVDiskExchang']..but why you blame Paypal and/or Ebay is beyond me. Neither of those companies are the ones that initiated the chargeback (it was the woman!) and as far as chargebacks are concerned, it's always done through a credit card company![/QUOTE]I think you misintepreted what I wrote, I could care less about paying Paypal or eBay fees. I've payed well over $800 from fees alone. So having to pay 50 cents for paypal fees to cover small items here is NOT a problem.

I see how you could have misunderstood what I wrote, and yes, of course eBay nor Paypal is responsible for scammers, but when you LAY down proof of what happened, and how the lady shipped back the phone without ever contacting me, the seller, not to mention shipped it back in a USED state, 20 days after the auction ended AND without several of the items I included.

I would at the very least expect a proper solution from Paypal and eBay, Not a robotic message telling me to refund her the cash and that she will have to ship out the item back to me. When IN FACT she already had sent me the phone much before Paypal even authorized it.

So don't give me that crap "don't understand how their system works." I DO expect some sort of explanation at least. If they had given me a valid reason as to why I should refund the money then by all means, alright not a problem. But since they never did, and they just shut down my appeal. It leaves a whole lot to be desired.

Yeah, and your right, I SHOULD blame the credit card company.. But how would I go and do that? Paypal will not dispute a charge back on your behalf, nor can you contact the credit card company to dispute the charge because Paypal does not give enough information about it.

So basically not only could I have lost the phone, but also the payment ends up being reversed and subsequently, I could have lost the phone AND the money.

And thus you are then forced to take the losses. Paypal aren't your Pals. But certainly it seems you think so, so thats all fine and good. But I certainly don't think it so. I still use Paypal after all, as a buyer it's still alright. But then you wonder, why the hell Paypal constantly gets sued if they really are that “great”. But this is going way out of topic here.
 
[quote name='Lucavious']So does this mean that proper procedure for accepting Paypal payments, unless specifically noted, we should assume the seller should be sent for example $30 for a purchase and NOT $31.20? That would make the process a bit easier.[/QUOTE]I would take that to be as such, yes. If they say $30 Paypal, and make no reference to the fees, then send them $30. One PM or post for clarification wouldn't be a bad idea if they don't specify it, so there's no confusion.

[quote name='Ryukahn']Currently, CAG sellers can tell you to pay the fees if they want, there is no rule against it so it's up to each individual CAG. Of course you can always choose to just not deal with them or tell them no on paying the fees.[/QUOTE]Paypal only specifies that you can't surcharge the price for the fees, so that's obviously open to interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing prices of "$30 Paypal, $29 via Amazon gift card, money order or concealed cash".
 
[quote name='Karma Is a Bish']I have a student account so I only have one payment option and I think it's a payment that doesn't have fees but isn't a gift so am I still okay?[/QUOTE]

Never got my answer...
 
[quote name='Karma Is a Bish']Never got my answer...[/QUOTE]I missed the PM from earlier, so let me address that now.

[quote name='mistymayem']Yes can someone please address the fact that student accounts can't send payments the same way as normal accounts??[/QUOTE]They're similar to "normal" Paypal accounts in functionality, though there's a couple of restrictions on them.

Main comparison page:
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/cps/general/PayPalAccountTypes

Here's the main help page for Student Accounts:
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/m...t=browseTab&sidetopic=800074&opentopic=800074

Main Student account infor page:
https://www.paypal.com/student/

The main issue is that Student accounts are hung off of a parent's main Paypal account, so there's some control over those accounts that isn't in a main Paypal account. They take fees for selling of items via Paypal, though they don't take fees for receiving money that isn't done through an item purchase. They're also beholden to the main Paypal account, so there's some fallback if there's an issue with the main account.

Basically, for the purposes of what we're talking about here, they work the same way because they take fees for selling items for others to purchase. Sending money for purchases works the same way, no fees are taken from the payer, only the payee.
 
Now I am confused.

I know I will take fees if I sell something and a user pays as a payment and not a gift. But I am pretty sure that if I pay someone, they don't take fees. I can't chose between a gift and payment option when paying through a student account, and when I have been asked to gift the money to people I have never heard a complaint that there where fees and that I need to cover them.
 
Aren't most of the fees reduced or eliminated if the funds for the payment come from an existing paypal balance or a checking account?

I have noticed when I have sent money as a gift that if I had paypal funds to cover the transfer it didn't ask me who was covering the fees.
 
[quote name='Karma Is a Bish']Now I am confused.

I know I will take fees if I sell something and a user pays as a payment and not a gift. But I am pretty sure that if I pay someone, they don't take fees. I can't chose between a gift and payment option when paying through a student account, and when I have been asked to gift the money to people I have never heard a complaint that there where fees and that I need to cover them.[/QUOTE]

Same here
 
I just don't 'get' this new rule. Shrike you are quoting PayPal's UA in the OP as the reason for this new no 'gift' option rule but it seams you are fine with sellers breaking a different PayPal UA, surcharges. I can't stand turning a blind eye to one thing but not another, it should be all or nothing.

I completely understand the motives behind this new rule but shouldn't we just discourage personal payments instead of making it a rule? CAG has always been a community/user policing system instead of heavy on the rules. I hate it when bs rules start to pop up, especially if the rule is just going to encourage other activities, surcharges.

This new rule goes against the spirit of CAG, IMHO. I know I'm just a casual trader here but my trading here started out in the old days when we would pick up clearance games for other users and just simple trading. I know many of the power 'traders' here aren't traders but power sellers and this rule is in their favor. If I want to have a long time CAG pick me up a clearance game that I can't get/find I want to send out the $13 as a gift not a purchase because it is a gift since nobody is making any money from this but instead shipping me a game for cost.
 
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[quote name='Karma Is a Bish']Now I am confused.

I know I will take fees if I sell something and a user pays as a payment and not a gift. But I am pretty sure that if I pay someone, they don't take fees. I can't chose between a gift and payment option when paying through a student account, and when I have been asked to gift the money to people I have never heard a complaint that there where fees and that I need to cover them.[/QUOTE]I'm going from what Paypal has posted on their site about the differences between Student accounts and non-student accounts. They say that if you sell something and receive payment for it, you're hit with fees. If you send money to someone to purchase something, you're not assessed fees.

My guess is that they're doing something on Paypal's end to figure out the type of payment and work according for it. I've pulled up everything I can find on Student Accounts, so if there's something else there that's not in the info on the Paypal site, there's nothing I can do to find it

[quote name='yourlefthand']Aren't most of the fees reduced or eliminated if the funds for the payment come from an existing paypal balance or a checking account?

I have noticed when I have sent money as a gift that if I had paypal funds to cover the transfer it didn't ask me who was covering the fees.[/QUOTE]It doesn't matter where the payment comes from, if the payment is a purchase payment, fees are deducted from the payee's amount and if it's a personal payment, no fees are assessed. If it's pulled from existing balance in your Paypal account or from another funding method, it doesn't matter.
 
I don't know if this rule is set in stone yet but I just have one thing to say, this website is cheapassgamer.com, not paypal.com.

If you're dead set on it then I will oblige.
 
[quote name='token2k6']just a quick note, when you sign up for Amazon Payments any card you have linked on your Amazon account will get a pending $1 authorization charge. This caused all kinds of chaos when my wife called me up, asking what "stupid thing" I bought for a $1 and why I used a card we weren't supposed to be using b/c she got some email alert?..[/QUOTE]
Lol, don't let a woman talk to you like that.
 
[quote name='Tony208']I don't know if this rule is set in stone yet but I just have one thing to say, this website is cheapassgamer.com, not paypal.com.

If you're dead set on it then I will oblige.[/QUOTE]I'm very aware of the name of the site.

The information we've been discussing is in Paypal's UA. You're agreeing to it by using the service.

There are other options out there besides Paypal, as we've been explaining, some with fees like Amazon Payments, and others that don't have any, such as sending an Amazon GC.
 
Honestly, what I do with Paypal and the ethics surrounding that are between Paypal and myself. I don't use it that often, but when I do, I'll use it as I see fit.

If I have a Paypal account, that means I've read or atleast said that I have read the UA and will abide by it. As long as I'm not promoting gift payments, CAG doesn't need to worry their little heads about me until Paypal buys this site and starts to charge us to use it too.
 
[quote name='shrike4242']I'm very aware of the name of the site.

The information we've been discussing is in Paypal's UA. You're agreeing to it by using the service.
[/QUOTE]
Please explain why it is against the rules here on CAG to not use personal payments when purchasing a game but it isn't against the rules here to break a different Paypal UA of surcharges? Having this rule is just encouraging the use of surcharges.
 
[quote name='Stoic Person Eater']Honestly, what I do with Paypal and the ethics surrounding that are between Paypal and myself. I don't use it that often, but when I do, I'll use it as I see fit.

If I have a Paypal account, that means I've read or atleast said that I have read the UA and will abide by it. As long as I'm not promoting gift payments, CAG doesn't need to worry their little heads about me until Paypal buys this site and starts to charge us to use it too.[/QUOTE]As you wish. It's between you and Paypal on how you use the site, though you agreed to their UA and all terms of that.

[quote name='spoo']Please explain why it is against the rules here on CAG to not use personal payments when purchasing a game but it isn't against the rules here to break a different Paypal UA of surcharges? Having this rule is just encouraging the use of surcharges.[/QUOTE]Paypal's UA says that you can't charge a surcharge for fees. The same is in the MasterCard and Visa merchant agreements for credit card acceptance. Merchants "get around" the charging a surcharge of fees for their credit card processing fees by charging a lesser/cheaper price for cash payments. They're not charging a surchage for the fees, though it's violating the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.
 
[quote name='shrike4242']As you wish. It's between you and Paypal on how you use the site, though you agreed to their UA and all terms of that. [/QUOTE]
I may have agreed to their UA, but I also might have crossed my fingers while doing so.

Just kidding, I understand what you're getting at, but I think it's better to mention it and leave it be. If you're going to police the site, you might as well get Paypal to give you a cut of those fees.
 
Eeeh, this is a bummer rule IMHO. But I guess I will have to follow as it is a rule. I guess from now on it's strictly trading only for me here. No more selling.
 
Can someone explain to me if it is possible to send a regular paypal payment while hiding my street address? My whole reason for using gift payments was due to there not being a street address attached to a gift payment. When I buy digital stuff from people, they do not need to see my address, so I want it hidden.
 
[quote name='shrike4242'][quote name='spoo']Please explain why it is against the rules here on CAG to not use personal payments when purchasing a game but it isn't against the rules here to break a different Paypal UA of surcharges? Having this rule is just encouraging the use of surcharges.[/QUOTE]

Paypal's UA says that you can't charge a surcharge for fees. The same is in the MasterCard and Visa merchant agreements for credit card acceptance. Merchants "get around" the charging a surcharge of fees for their credit card processing fees by charging a lesser/cheaper price for cash payments. They're not charging a surchage for the fees, though it's violating the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.[/QUOTE]
I'm clearly aware of this but you are obviously turning a blind eye on the many trade lists here that links to a PayPal calculator (like the one you link to in the OP) and state if they are using PayPal they need to pay the paypal fee. That isn't a "cash discount" that is a surcharge if using paypal.

My point is that it is bullshit to prohibit one activity that is against PayPal's UA but choose to ignore a different PayPal policy. You should change this to a strong suggestion instead of the law or maybe I'm confused and your aren't banning this practice from CAG but just pointing out that it is against PayPal's UA?

[quote name='shrike4242'][quote name='Stoic Person Eater']Honestly, what I do with Paypal and the ethics surrounding that are between Paypal and myself. I don't use it that often, but when I do, I'll use it as I see fit.

If I have a Paypal account, that means I've read or atleast said that I have read the UA and will abide by it. As long as I'm not promoting gift payments, CAG doesn't need to worry their little heads about me until Paypal buys this site and starts to charge us to use it too.[/QUOTE]As you wish. It's between you and Paypal on how you use the site, though you agreed to their UA and all terms of that. [/QUOTE]So it isn't prohibited here?!?

I personally have no problems with either activity but calling one out but not the other is absolutely ridiculous since they both are against PayPal's UA.
 
[quote name='spoo']I'm clearly aware of this but you are obviously turning a blind eye on the many trade lists here that links to a PayPal calculator (like the one you link to in the OP) and state if they are using PayPal they need to pay the paypal fee. That isn't a "cash discount" that is a surcharge if using paypal.

My point is that it is bullshit to prohibit one activity that is against PayPal's UA but choose to ignore a different PayPal policy. You should change this to a strong suggestion instead of the law or maybe I'm confused and your aren't banning this practice from CAG but just pointing out that it is against PayPal's UA?[/quote]I'm not turning any blind eye away from that fact. It's been something I had suspected in Paypal's UA, having not read it from top to bottom until just now, and as I have read it, it's something that is going to be addressed. If the payer is forcing the payee to explicitly pay for the fees, that's a violation of the Paypal UA, in the section I listed earlier.

So it isn't prohibited here?!?

I personally have no problems with either activity but calling one out but not the other is absolutely ridiculous since they both are against PayPal's UA.
Click to expand...
All the activities in question with Paypal happen on their site, and we have no control over that. We can mandate the prohibition of personal payments and the prevention of Paypal fees being put on the seller, though like everything external to CAG, we have no direct control over that.

I'm not saying that sticking the fees on the payer with Paypal is against the Paypal UA, it is. Getting around that by a "non-Paypal discount" isn't violating the letter of Paypal's UA, it's violating the spirit of it. It's not surcharging fees explicitly, though it's implicitly stated by something else being a lesser price than what someone pays via Paypal.

As I stated, it's the same situation for MC and Visa with their merchants and surcharging their fees to the customer. I don't shop anywhere that does cash discounts on items because that's how they're working around the fees for MC and Visa for credit cards.

This is an attempt to not have us contribute to users violating Paypal's UA by avoiding fees by personal payments and by sticking payers with fees. Ultimately, it's up to the people in question to decide to follow it or not. On the things that we can directly control on here, yes, it's going to be dealt with.
 
OP has been updated with a wider selection from the Paypal UA about fees, personal payments and purchase payments.

Title has been updated to cover payers not paying Paypal fees, as that's another issue with the Paypal UA, as it's considered to be a surcharge.

[quote name='Megiddo_CAG']I am assuming this applies to gameshares as well?

This really is an offset to gameshares.[/QUOTE]It's a purchase for an item. Paypal considers it to be a purchase and its classifiable under a Purchase payment, not a Personal payment.
 
Shrike your last post confused me a little bit. Are you saying it will be mandatory that sellers accepting Paypal not attempt to offset the surcharge as well as not allow gift payments, or are you just strongly suggesting they don't because it could potentially lead to problems with Paypal?
 
[quote name='shrike4242']OP has been updated with a wider selection from the Paypal UA about fees, personal payments and purchase payments.

Title has been updated to cover payers not paying Paypal fees, as that's another issue with the Paypal UA, as it's considered to be a surcharge.

It's a purchase for an item. Paypal considers it to be a purchase and its classifiable under a Purchase payment, not a Personal payment.[/QUOTE]

In the sense that 4 people gift you the paypal, than buy it via gameshare?
 
I must agree with those who are puzzled about supporting one of Paypal's policies (no gifting for payments) and turning a blind eye to another (allowing sellers to state that they are charging fees).

I bring this up because I pointed out to CAG's membership the policy that prohibits sellers form charging fees (or at the very least, saying they are). Apparently, my opinion on the matter offended a lot of people and save for a few brave souls who agreed with me, I got more or less trampled. As a result, Cheapy finally weighed in and amended the CAG trading rules to add the following:

"
icon4.gif
We would like to remind our users that PayPal's User's Agreement states:
"You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions."
Violating PayPal rules can put your PayPal account in jeopardy."

It was decided that this policy would be left up to each member and upheld or not at their own discretion. I didn't agree with that decision at the time, but Cheapy is the law of the land and the matter quickly faded away.

Now that the issue of "gifting" has come into focus, I think it's time to officially address both policies. If CAG's stance on Paypal fees remains as it has been since its debate, then I feel that people have every right to take issue with this policy. Picking and choosing which policies to follow doesn't seem like the right approach.



EDIT: Wow, you guys are posting fast and furious on this one. Thanks for the clarification, shrike. I'm pleased to see both issues being treated in the same light.
 
[quote name='shrike4242']It's a purchase for an item. Paypal considers it to be a purchase and its classifiable under a Purchase payment, not a Personal payment.[/QUOTE]

I don't really agree with that at all. People are pooling their funds in order to make a purchase. If someone buys a 4 pack by themself and then sells the other 3 then sure, but when people are just trying to pool I don't see why a gift payment can't be used.

Either way I am not too concerned with the 4 pack issue since I have friends outside of CAG that I can gift payments too since they are actually friends and would want to go in on that stuff, but it still sucks for people trying to organize them here.
 
Ok thanks for the clarification shrike. [quote name='shrike4242'] Getting around that by a "non-Paypal discount" isn't violating the letter of Paypal's UA, it's violating the spirit of it. It's not surcharging fees explicitly, though it's implicitly stated by something else being a lesser price than what someone pays via Paypal. [/QUOTE]

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?...ntent_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US
4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

I am not a lawyer but it states in plain English that you can't charge more to sell an item via PayPal then using cash and this goes for the shady cash discount.
 
[quote name='Lucavious']Shrike your last post confused me a little bit. Are you saying it will be mandatory that sellers accepting Paypal not attempt to offset the surcharge as well as not allow gift payments, or are you just strongly suggesting they don't because it could potentially lead to problems with Paypal?[/QUOTE]Any actions taken via Paypal are items we can't control directly, so all we can do is mandate that it doesn't happen on CAG. We can mandate the policies about Paypal gifted payments and surcharges for Paypal fees on the payer, though as we're not Paypal, we can't directly control what happens. We can set policies for users to abide by and it's hopeful that people follow the policies as stated.

[quote name='Megiddo_CAG']In the sense that 4 people gift you the paypal, than buy it via gameshare?[/QUOTE]Therein lies one issue, since it's one person making the actual purchase, though the other people sending Paypal aren't making a direct purchase, they're making an indirect one. I'm sure Paypal would consider that to be a purchase payments, since you're ultimately giving money for an item, even if it's a "share" of an item. Paypal spells out what personal payments are for, and clearly spells out that they're not for purchases.
 
[quote name='shrike4242']Any actions taken via Paypal are items we can't control directly, so all we can do is mandate that it doesn't happen on CAG. We can mandate the policies about Paypal gifted payments and surcharges for Paypal fees on the payer, though as we're not Paypal, we can't directly control what happens. We can set policies for users to abide by and it's hopeful that people follow the policies as stated.

Therein lies one issue, since it's one person making the actual purchase, though the other people sending Paypal aren't making a direct purchase, they're making an indirect one. I'm sure Paypal would consider that to be a purchase payments, since you're ultimately giving money for an item, even if it's a "share" of an item. Paypal spells out what personal payments are for, and clearly spells out that they're not for purchases.[/QUOTE]

Understood, thanks for clarifying.
 
The only problem I see with that is the example for a personal payment from their selection includes this line:

A Personal Payment is:paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill;

That wording makes me think, personally, that gameshares and Steam 4-packs would apply there. A lunch bill, if one person bought it, people have obviously shared/bought the food but one person bought it up front. Just saying paypal's own descriptions between the two are a bit contradictory. I understand that these are the rules now but I'm just wanting to point out Paypal does have some contradicting statements that is definitely causing this grey area.
 
[quote name='jp0213']The only problem I see with that is the example for a personal payment from their selection includes this line:

A Personal Payment is:paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill;

That wording makes me think, personally, that gameshares and Steam 4-packs would apply there. A lunch bill, if one person bought it, people have obviously shared/bought the food but one person bought it up front. Just saying paypal's own descriptions between the two are a bit contradictory.[/QUOTE]

Yeah it does, first thing I thought when I read this. This does sorta mess up gameshares a bit.
 
[quote name='spoo']Ok thanks for the clarification shrike.

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?...ntent_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US
4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

I am not a lawyer but it states in plain English that you can't charge more to sell an item via PayPal then using cash.[/QUOTE]Neither am I, though as it states in the above agreement, which is parallel to the merchant agreements for Visa, MC, Discover and AmEx.

Article from The Consumerist about credit card surcharges and minimum purchases:
http://consumerist.com/2006/04/mega...mum-credit-card-purchases-is-a-violation.html

They don't allow for the surcharge of fees for credit card purchases over cash, as well as minimums for credit card purchases. If you see someone doing it, you should report them to MC/Visa/etc.

I'd like to hope that CAGs don't start making this an issue with two prices for payment, one for Paypal and one for non-Paypal. Amazon Payments has their UA look similar to Paypal's, so I'm sure it has the same legal in it. When I get a chance, I'll look it over.

People should stick to one price and that's it. If they're going to sue the convenience of Paypal or Amazon Payments, they need to pay the fees with that convenience. Merchants do it with credit card transactions, and they can lose their use of those credit cards if they violate them. Same goes for Paypal.

[quote name='jp0213']The only problem I see with that is the example for a personal payment from their selection includes this line:

A Personal Payment is:paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill;

That wording makes me think, personally, that gameshares and Steam 4-packs would apply there. A lunch bill, if one person bought it, people have obviously shared/bought the food but one person bought it up front. Just saying paypal's own descriptions between the two are a bit contradictory. I understand that these are the rules now but I'm just wanting to point out Paypal does have some contradicting statements that is definitely causing this grey area.[/QUOTE]That situation is a gray area, yes, since it's a close analog to the gameshare situation with the lunch bill argument.

It would certainly bear talking with them and trying to find out their stance on it. I'm sure they'd err on the side of their fees, if I had to take a stab at it, though it does warrant some further clarification.
 
[quote name='jp0213']The only problem I see with that is the example for a personal payment from their selection includes this line:

A Personal Payment is:paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill;

That wording makes me think, personally, that gameshares and Steam 4-packs would apply there. A lunch bill, if one person bought it, people have obviously shared/bought the food but one person bought it up front. Just saying paypal's own descriptions between the two are a bit contradictory. I understand that these are the rules now but I'm just wanting to point out Paypal does have some contradicting statements that is definitely causing this grey area.[/QUOTE]
The description makes sense. If you are PAYING A FRIEND BACK, you already have the goods before you pay for them, there is no risk to you as the buyer, thus it is a personal payment (gift).

If a person buys a 4-pack, sends you the game, and then you pay them back for it, that's a personal payment.

If a person buys a 4-pack, waits for you to pay, you pay them for it, and then he sends you the game after receiving your payment, that's a purchase payment.

Hope that clears it up. :)
 
Now that description does make sense, that way, in theory you could technically still do the personal payments for 4-packs but definitely leaves the first buyer open to some serious losses.
 
[quote name='timobkg']The description makes sense. If you are PAYING A FRIEND BACK, you already have the goods before you pay for them, there is no risk to you as the buyer, thus it is a personal payment (gift).

If a person buys a 4-pack, sends you the game, and then you pay them back for it, that's a personal payment.

If a person buys a 4-pack, waits for you to pay, you pay them for it, and then he sends you the game after receiving your payment, that's a purchase payment.

Hope that clears it up. :)[/QUOTE]Good analogy. Well thought out.
 
Should we just lock this up? If it's a new rule, I don't really understand why it's been opened as if it's up for debate, when it's just something else added to the site's Rules.
 
[quote name='dragonjud']Should we just lock this up? If it's a new rule, I don't really understand why it's been opened as if it's up for debate, when it's just something else added to the site's Rules.[/QUOTE]

Well I know there were some of us just looking for clarification on items that weren't entirely clear but it does seem that we have those explained better.
 
So basically, if you offer Paypal then you are responsible for the fees and you can not increase your prices to offset them.
 
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I find it interesting that retailers can not charge fees for people using cards.
It costs at a minimum 3% for credit and 1.5% for debit, since they did away with the flat rate debit fee system.

I know V/MC are trying to get actual laws passed that prevent cash discounts or incentives to use cash.

But when I use my credit cards to pay taxes, I get charged a convenience fee. Does that not amount to the same thing. It is a matter of protections.

a solution to making payments vs gifts is this. I know many retailers who calculate shipping based on Invoice $ amount with additional fees for heavier or larger items. As long as you (a specific seller) consistently use what every table you decide on, no one can give you grief on the legal end of it. (policy covers a lot of sins).
Now if you offer rewards or discounts for cash that currently is allowable.



so for example lets say you decide shipping on $50 equates to $8 shipping cost. You can always refund extra if desirable.
Or lets say say it was a $50 transaction your fee of $8 will not cover the shipping & handling cost ie it weighs over 20lbs or over a certain size you charge an additional $4 fee. Just a note UPS currently uses a size guide for shipping now, not just weight. So if you ship a larger 4lb item, they move it up to the 30lb price point. You get the idea.

This would solve those pesky User Agreement issues. I think most CAGers would be fair in their application of shipping fees. At least I think they would be better than most of those ebay sellers with massive shipping costs.
 
[quote name='Lucavious']We've already been giving money to Paypal no? Up until now though it's been the buyer who paid the fees.[/QUOTE]

It has been the "seller" who pays the fees not the buyer. The fees can sometime make the seller at loss. Honestly personal payment is something the seller and the buyer work out. They have to know the risk once they agreed to it, just like the risk in trading items for items. One side will always have to go first. With the current scamming rate I understand why this rule has to go in effect.
 
So, yeah the timing on enforcing this Paypal UA is bullshit. Had I known that I would not be allowed to have buyers cover paypal fees, I would've probably just gone the Ebay route for my current auction.

Man, I am seriously thinking of ending my Lowball Auction. There is no way I am eating at least $60 in fees to accomodate a non-Paypal endorsed site. Shipping is already gonna kick my ass.
 
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