Are my spirtual beliefs wrong?

I mostly agree with the past couple of posts. I generally feel that religion adds more positive things into our society than negative. It gives people hope, comfort, and motivation to act righteously.

I do not like how people push it onto others but encounter that rarely enough that its not a big issue for me personally. I just keep on walking/driving on by.

I find it interesting that there is (GENERALLY!!!) an inverse relationship between religious ferver and education/wealth; meaning that the poor and uneducated are usually more religious than the educated and wealthy. I wonder why that is, maybe because the rich and educated feel that they have more control over their own destiny and the poor feel they are subject to some higher power.
 
OP, nothing with your spiritual beliefs are wrong. but if youre questioning them, just take some time to study some religions and what not. hell, go talk to a rabbi or a priest, theyll be more than happy to share what they know.

but really, i wouldnt recommend just picking up and reading the bible. not without getting someone thats religious to help you interpret it. if you just read the bible with no context it can be very outdated, complex and at times absurd, especially the old testament. same goes with the qur'an or mahabharata. but hey its not gonna hurt to do a little reading and if nothing else you might just come out more of an athiest in the end.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']i wouldnt recommend just picking up and reading the bible. not without getting someone thats religious to help you interpret it. if you just read the bible with no context it can be very outdated, complex and at times absurd, especially the old testament. same goes with the qur'an or mahabharata. but hey its not gonna hurt to do a little reading and if nothing else you might just come out more of an athiest in the end.[/quote]

I agree that you shouldn't just pick it up and read it since you won't understand some metaphors, etc., but I wouldn't suggest getting "someone religious" to help you interpret it because chances are they don't know shit about shit. If you just talk to some random religious person or even a priest or minister of some certain bent then all you're going to get is their interpretation based on what they were told in that sect (not that you were necessarily saying to do that RAMSTORIA, I just want to clarify). The people you should go to are literary critics and religious historians (preferably someone who does both, my religious studies professor knows fucking everything). So if you have a religious studies course you can take or at least know of some teachers in that area you should probably go to them if you want to understand it from a more objective perspective. There's also a wealth of information on the internet that you can find that isn't biased in one way or another as well if that's something you'd like to do.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I agree that you shouldn't just pick it up and read it since you won't understand some metaphors, etc., but I wouldn't suggest getting "someone religious" to help you interpret it because chances are they don't know shit about shit. If you just talk to some random religious person or even a priest or minister of some certain bent then all you're going to get is their interpretation based on what they were told in that sect (not that you were necessarily saying to do that RAMSTORIA, I just want to clarify). The people you should go to are literary critics and religious historians (preferably someone who does both, my religious studies professor knows fucking everything). So if you have a religious studies course you can take or at least know of some teachers in that area you should probably go to them if you want to understand it from a more objective perspective. There's also a wealth of information on the internet that you can find that isn't biased in one way or another as well if that's something you'd like to do.[/QUOTE]

well actually i was suggesting that he go to someone in whatever sect, only because if someone is on a religious search then they need to know about these religions and thats where you would get the best interpretations. literary critics and religious historians know tons about the text but in my experience professors of religious studies and literature are some of the biggest atheists ive ever seen (and ive taken several classes on the matter). you wouldnt want to get an interpretation of the bible from someone who doesnt believe in it, that wouldnt help a spiritual journey.
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']Haha, that's a funny thought (but one I may have too!) when you're dying.
Also, as far as the politics/controversy goes, definitely no on the politics. I knew there was nothing political about this thread. However, I do think there is some light controversy especially if a real debate about religion was stired up.

Yes. So what's up with the trading time out?[/quote]

Trying to sell my Modded Saturn with its 150+ games & 4mb ram cart.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']well actually i was suggesting that he go to someone in whatever sect, only because if someone is on a religious search then they need to know about these religions and thats where you would get the best interpretations. literary critics and religious historians know tons about the text but in my experience professors of religious studies and literature are some of the biggest atheists ive ever seen (and ive taken several classes on the matter). you wouldnt want to get an interpretation of the bible from someone who doesnt believe in it, that wouldnt help a spiritual journey.[/quote]

I don't understand why you would want information on a religion from someone who doesn't know why, when, and by whom it was created. A spiritual journey shouldn't require ignorance on a subject. Most random believers won't know much of anything about their religion, so it would be best to go to someone who has studied it.
 
[quote name='Mookyjooky']Trying to sell my Modded Saturn with its 150+ games & 4mb ram cart.[/QUOTE]
Ah, I see. Time to Craigslist that system!
Thanks Ramstoria and SpazX. I did something similar to what Ramstoria suggested when I was 12. I enjoyed the atomsphere at the particular church I went to, but came away from it with mixed feelings. Eventually, I became the Atheist I know and love. *-*
 
[quote name='SpazX']I don't understand why you would want information on a religion from someone who doesn't know why, when, and by whom it was created. A spiritual journey shouldn't require ignorance on a subject. Most random believers won't know much of anything about their religion, so it would be best to go to someone who has studied it.[/quote]

Same reason I get my car fixed by someone who doesn't know why, when, and by whom the first car was invented.
 
[quote name='camoor']Same reason I get my car fixed by someone who doesn't know why, when, and by whom the first car was invented.[/quote]

I tried, but the analogy doesn't work. Car mechanics have to study cars and learn how and why they work. In a religion you can't understand how and why it works unless you understand the culture that created it. Otherwise how do you understand their thoughts and writings? How do you interpret something without any background?
 
I too think that if you want to take a serious, educational look at a religioin you should take the time to talk with people who study it, rabbis, preists, whatever. Take their advice about it for what its worth and beleive it or dont beleive and know that the mouth it comes from is devout.

Do this inconjunction with reading the text on your own. This is basically sunday school but you can get information about religion in college classes as well. Even if you remain athiest, at worst your educated, well at the very worst your "saved!"
 
[quote name='pittpizza']I too think that if you want to take a serious, educational look at a religioin you should take the time to talk with people who study it, rabbis, preists, whatever. Take their advice about it for what its worth and beleive it or dont beleive and know that the mouth it comes from is devout.

Do this inconjunction with reading the text on your own. This is basically sunday school but you can get information about religion in college classes as well. Even if you remain athiest, at worst your educated, well at the very worst your "saved!"[/quote]

I want to say that I don't mean to say that you shouldn't talk to priests, rabbis, etc., you just have to realize that they will interpret things a certain way and you should probably talk to multiple to get a broader outlook if you go that route. They should know more about the religion than the average religious joe anyway.

If you want to practice a religion then whatever, but if you want to understand a religion it takes more than that. And you'd have to study how, why, and when the religious texts were written to really understand what they're intended to mean.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I don't understand why you would want information on a religion from someone who doesn't know why, when, and by whom it was created. A spiritual journey shouldn't require ignorance on a subject. Most random believers won't know much of anything about their religion, so it would be best to go to someone who has studied it.[/QUOTE]

im not sure why you think religious people are ignorant in regards to their own religion. im certainly not suggesting that he goes to a church parking lot and asks some random guy named bob about the book of genesis. im just saying if he has questions about religion and religious texts he should talk to someone that is religious.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']im not sure why you think religious people are ignorant in regards to their own religion. im certainly not suggesting that he goes to a church parking lot and asks some random guy named bob about the book of genesis. im just saying if he has questions about religion and religious texts he should talk to someone that is religious.[/quote]

"Someone that is religious" is some random guy named bob unless you're more specific. Religious people in general aren't always ignorant to their own religion in regards to what they're taught, but they're taught the interpretation of a person following a line of people that interpreted something in a certain way.

You can certainly go to that person for their opinion about a religion, but you won't understand the religion by doing that. If your goal is to learn about a religion then you have to study it from that perspective, if you want to learn how a certain group of people practice a religion then you can ask somebody else that just happens to believe that way. I don't think being religious is a requirement to understand a religion, certainly you can study and understand something and come to the conclusion that you don't believe it is true.
 
[quote name='SpazX']"Someone that is religious" is some random guy named bob unless you're more specific. Religious people in general aren't always ignorant to their own religion in regards to what they're taught, but they're taught the interpretation of a person following a line of people that interpreted something in a certain way.

You can certainly go to that person for their opinion about a religion, but you won't understand the religion by doing that. If your goal is to learn about a religion then you have to study it from that perspective, if you want to learn how a certain group of people practice a religion then you can ask somebody else that just happens to believe that way. I don't think being religious is a requirement to understand a religion, certainly you can study and understand something and come to the conclusion that you don't believe it is true.[/QUOTE]

youre right i wasnt specific in my reply, but in my original post i did say priest or rabbi, someone that actually knows the religion.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']youre right i wasnt specific in my reply, but in my original post i did say priest or rabbi, someone that actually knows the religion.[/quote]
Well yeah, in that case, what I said about priests and stuff earlier :p.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I tried, but the analogy doesn't work. Car mechanics have to study cars and learn how and why they work. In a religion you can't understand how and why it works unless you understand the culture that created it. Otherwise how do you understand their thoughts and writings? How do you interpret something without any background?[/quote]

Car mechanics don't need to know why a car works to fix it. They just need to know that this dohicky should be connected to that gear and if the computer scanner gives you a purple 4 then you need to replace the alternator.

Likewise I'm sure that many religious teachers don't know why they feel better after they pray/meditate/worship/etc - but they sure know the ritual, techniques, and mantra required to get them to the state of

IMO history, culture, and tradition play an overly exagerated and ultimately stunting role in religion (similar to how prior to the Renaissance, western scientific theories were often abandoned if they countered Aristotle or the Bible)

Spiritual theory (the why) considered with an open mind is fine. But if the ritual works, use it until it outlives its usefullness or you find something better.
 
[quote name='camoor']Car mechanics don't need to know why a car works to fix it. They just need to know that this dohicky should be connected to that gear and if the computer scanner gives you a purple 4 then you need to replace the alternator.

Likewise I'm sure that many religious teachers don't know why they feel better after they pray/meditate/worship/etc - but they sure know the ritual, techniques, and mantra required to get them to the state of

IMO history, culture, and tradition play an overly exagerated and ultimately stunting role in religion (similar to how prior to the Renaissance, western scientific theories were often abandoned if they countered Aristotle or the Bible)

Spiritual theory (the why) considered with an open mind is fine. But if the ritual works, use it until it outlives its usefullness or you find something better.[/quote]

Now you're talking about a ritual, not a religion. Religions consist of a lot more than a ritual. We're talking about how to understand a religion.
 
Does it matter? Our entire race will be dead in a few years thanks to Global Warming (Man kinds best friend who at the end of the night throws up on your shoes). Speaking as a catholic, there are a lot of other christians that should really stfu, from those wackies called evangelicals, down to the more idiotic; I am a good person who will go to heaven because I went down micronesia and volunteered, right after snorting a line of coke and having sex with random dude at the party.(someone I knew in highschool was that way)
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Our entire race will be dead in a few years thanks to Global Warming. [/quote]

OH NOOOOOOO!!!!!!


**pittpizza goes to the nearest window in his skyscraper and jumps out**
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Does it matter? Our entire race will be dead in a few years thanks to Global Warming (Man kinds best friend who at the end of the night throws up on your shoes). Speaking as a catholic, there are a lot of other christians that should really stfu, from those wackies called evangelicals, down to the more idiotic; I am a good person who will go to heaven because I went down micronesia and volunteered, right after snorting a line of coke and having sex with random dude at the party.(someone I knew in highschool was that way)[/quote]

A few years? Who told you that? They are either misinformed or outright lying.
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']I'm not making any of this up. These series of events have me questioning my belief system. Could I be wrong? Before this decision was very easy for me to make. But I just saw two strange events right in a row after some religious dude waved and smiled at me. I'm kind of freaked out. Advice?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure you're cut out to be an atheist if you automatically cull supernatural meaning from a coincidental chain of events.
 
[quote name='lord_ebonstone']I'm not sure you're cut out to be an atheist if you automatically cull supernatural meaning from a coincidental chain of events.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but you're late with that one. I think three or four people have already called out my skills as an Atheist.
Guys! Don't worry! I'm still an Atheist. Who wants to come to my house and play some 360? You know, instead of sitting around not praying to God? ;)
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']Who wants to come to my house and play some 360?[/quote]

I wourd rike to pray some 360.

DO! - DO! - DO!
 
I don't have a whole lot of time to get into another big debate here, but it's no secret that I'm training to be a Christian pastor. If anyone (especially you, OP) has questions about the Bible, I'd be more than happy to try to help. Just PM me.
 
people in your town are weird, thats all. and if i saw all those things, i'd be scratchin my head too.

its snowin outside, have a great day!
 
I am one of these crazy Christians that usually get bashed and mocked on these sites. I personally don't convert other people and don't talk about Christianity to anyone other than people I know are Christian. It's a gross overgeneralization to class a large percentage of the population as fanatics based on seeing a few people who are caught up in what they believe in. In spite of the liberal media, I don't think there is any desire to convert people, I personally wouldn't want anyone to go to church who won't show the respect for it that I do, like those douchebags in San Fran who went to communion, the only ones wanting conversion are the terrorists, or do they just want to slaughter us, at least Christians don't blow themselves up. And if your going to point to the Crusades I would say you'd be speaking arabic and your girlfriend would be in Burqas, so tell me which life you like more? But I do wonder why so many are adament about denying there is a God as if someone here actually knows or can prove otherwise. It's seems they do it to reassure themselves so they can keep sleeping late on sundays. Just keep blaming God when something goes wrong in your life and don't be thankful when something goes right. This is my angry rant to bitter atheists. Please flame me and point out my spelling errors. Oh and Merry Christmas, there I said it, are you offended?

And I have no desire to come back to this board and reading the venom directed at me, so don't feel that any kind of war will erupt, I really don't plan on changing any minds here or anywhere else. And yes I do like to use commas to extend sentences way beyond being gramatically correct.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']I am one of these crazy Christians that usually get bashed and mocked on these sites. I personally don't convert other people and don't talk about Christianity to anyone other than people I know are Christian. It's a gross overgeneralization to class a large percentage of the population as fanatics based on seeing a few people who are caught up in what they believe in. In spite of the liberal media, I don't think there is any desire to convert people, I personally wouldn't want anyone to go to church who won't show the respect for it that I do, like those douchebags in San Fran who went to communion, the only ones wanting conversion are the terrorists, or do they just want to slaughter us, at least Christians don't blow themselves up. And if your going to point to the Crusades I would say you'd be speaking arabic and your girlfriend would be in Burqas, so tell me which life you like more? But I do wonder why so many are adament about denying there is a God as if someone here actually knows or can prove otherwise. It's seems they do it to reassure themselves so they can keep sleeping late on sundays. Just keep blaming God when something goes wrong in your life and don't be thankful when something goes right. This is my angry rant to bitter atheists. Please flame me and point out my spelling errors. Oh and Merry Christmas, there I said it, are you offended?

And I have no desire to come back to this board and reading the venom directed at me, so don't feel that any kind of war will erupt, I really don't plan on changing any minds here or anywhere else. And yes I do like to use commas to extend sentences way beyond being gramatically correct.[/quote]

See kids - now that's how you troll!

PS Bet you he'll be back. They always come back.
 
Read the original post again -- basically, if those things made you question your faith, then actually sit down and think about that. Question your own faith and see where you truly lie.

I have a friend who was a militant atheist up until a few years back -- he realized then that he was unsure about the universe itself and became a bit partial to Buddhism. In the past year, he's been attending random worship services from all over the religious map merely to see what there is out there and come up with his own mind on his faith and the nature of the universe.

On a slightly related note, I found that a great stepping stone to figure out where your ideas fall on the current religious map is the Belief-O-Matic from Belief.net...no matter how cheesy it sounds, it's a nice marker for where your views lie.
 
I don't know why I'm replying to this, I guess I'm just avoiding finishing this essay I have to do. So anyway....

[quote name='jputahraptor']I am one of these crazy Christians that usually get bashed and mocked on these sites. I personally don't convert other people and don't talk about Christianity to anyone other than people I know are Christian.[/quote]

Then I guess you're not one of the people that the OP is talking about :p.


It's a gross overgeneralization to class a large percentage of the population as fanatics based on seeing a few people who are caught up in what they believe in.
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Very good, I hope you apply the same logic to Muslims.

In spite of the liberal media, I don't think there is any desire to convert people, I personally wouldn't want anyone to go to church who won't show the respect for it that I do, like those douchebags in San Fran who went to communion, the only ones wanting conversion are the terrorists, or do they just want to slaughter us, at least Christians don't blow themselves up.
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Confusing sentence. But anyway, there is not a general desire to convert people in America since most people are already Christian. Most of the pressure by Christians to convert people is in the past (as they were pretty successful), but of course there are still plenty of missionaries so you'd be wrong to say there is no desire. I have no idea who you're talking about in San Francisco, but yes, terrorists do want to convert people (though they're not the only ones) and Christians generally don't blow themselves up (they use guns).

And if your going to point to the Crusades I would say you'd be speaking arabic and your girlfriend would be in Burqas, so tell me which life you like more?
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If European people didn't invade the Middle East during the Middle Ages we'd be fundamentalist Muslims? The crusades were ultimately a loss anyway, they didn't accomplish dick (as far as actually conquering anything) in the end, so I have no idea what you're talking about. The best thing that came of the Crusades was the scientific knowledge gained from Muslims because of the extra contact.

But I do wonder why so many are adament about denying there is a God as if someone here actually knows or can prove otherwise. It's seems they do it to reassure themselves so they can keep sleeping late on sundays. Just keep blaming God when something goes wrong in your life and don't be thankful when something goes right. This is my angry rant to bitter atheists. Please flame me and point out my spelling errors. Oh and Merry Christmas, there I said it, are you offended?
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How can someone who doesn't believe in a god blame said god for the bad things that happen to them? And if no one can prove if there is or isn't a god can you fault atheists for not believing in one? And why if atheists thought there was a god do you assume they would be Christian (and therefore do anything on sunday)?

And I have no desire to come back to this board and reading the venom directed at me, so don't feel that any kind of war will erupt, I really don't plan on changing any minds here or anywhere else. And yes I do like to use commas to extend sentences way beyond being gramatically correct.
Click to expand...

There's your venom. Have fun not responding to it.
 
[quote name='SpazX']If European people didn't invade the Middle East during the Middle Ages we'd be fundamentalist Muslims? The crusades were ultimately a loss anyway, they didn't accomplish dick (as far as actually conquering anything) in the end, so I have no idea what you're talking about. The best thing that came of the Crusades was the scientific knowledge gained from Muslims because of the extra contact.[/quote]Spaz, you know all too well you won't find the two of us agreeing on much of anything when it comes to posts regarding science, religion, or spiritual things, so take note. You're dead on in my book.

You can look much earlier (Charles "The Hammer" Martel) and much later (Charles V, HRE) to see Europe being saved from the "Turks." Charles V's run-in with the Muslims is particularly is especially near-and-dear to my heart as that distraction allowed Martin Luther to do his work in the Reformation without facing the full force of either Rome or the HRE. Lutherans (and protestants at large) owe, in some form, a debt to the Muslims for the existence of their theology.

That being said--the Crusades were a travesty. Nothing but a money-grab under the guise of religious piety. A mark of shame, to be certain, on the Christian church. I'm literally shocked to hear of any Christian defending them with the possible exception of certain motivations in the First Crusade. Beyond that, it's all wretched from a Christian perspective. Just plain disgusting.
 
I honestly wish I was more into my religion, but I've been far to out of it and I sometimes feel its too late to get back (I definitely have a lot of faith though). I continue feeling bad for what I did in church, many times when I was a young kid (that was part of the reason my family stopped going was because of me, along with moving and living too far away from our church. Last time I went was 16 years ago). I should take the chance to read the bible someday.
 
[quote name='daroga']Spaz, you know all too well you won't find the two of us agreeing on much of anything when it comes to posts regarding science, religion, or spiritual things, so take note. You're dead on in my book.

You can look much earlier (Charles "The Hammer" Martel) and much later (Charles V, HRE) to see Europe being saved from the "Turks." Charles V's run-in with the Muslims is particularly is especially near-and-dear to my heart as that distraction allowed Martin Luther to do his work in the Reformation without facing the full force of either Rome or the HRE. Lutherans (and protestants at large) owe, in some form, a debt to the Muslims for the existence of their theology.

That being said--the Crusades were a travesty. Nothing but a money-grab under the guise of religious piety. A mark of shame, to be certain, on the Christian church. I'm literally shocked to hear of any Christian defending them with the possible exception of certain motivations in the First Crusade. Beyond that, it's all wretched from a Christian perspective. Just plain disgusting.[/quote]

I'd like to know where he was told they were a positive thing. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone defend the Crusades and I know most Christians have disowned them for quite some time. It doesn't really surprise me though, considering the current environment.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I'd like to know where he was told they were a positive thing. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone defend the Crusades and I know most Christians have disowned them for quite some time. It doesn't really surprise me though, considering the current environment.[/quote]Yeah, I don't know. Anyone who unconditionally praises the crusades as good things is nuts. Someone who says there were really good motives in them doesn't really understand their history. Someone who says that good things did happen as a result of them is about as close to a truthful positive as you can get.

From a Chrisitian prespective, the crusade era is where the chruch of Rome decided to take their concept of selling salvation through indulgences mainstream. Not that that offensive-to-the-Bible doctrine wasn't already there, but this gave it a top hat and its own variety show. Awful.
 
[quote name='The Mana Knight']I honestly wish I was more into my religion, but I've been far to out of it and I sometimes feel its too late to get back (I definitely have a lot of faith though). I continue feeling bad for what I did in church, many times when I was a young kid (that was part of the reason my family stopped going was because of me, along with moving and living too far away from our church. Last time I went was 16 years ago). I should take the chance to read the bible someday.[/quote]

If you feel guilty you must have been raised Catholic.

My advice is to let it go, any religion that tries to guilt you into believing it is a sham.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']I agree with the sentiment, but the last bit isn't exactly true. How "enjoyable" or "agreeable" a religion is has no real bearing on its truth...ful...ness...[/quote]True. Just because someone uses improper means to retain or bring someone back doesn't make it not true.

If I guilt you into playing a super great game, it doesn't make that game un-good because of the way I got you to play it.

And "guilting you into it" is an interesting perspective that's all relative. Sometimes what one interprets as being guilted into something is just an impassioned attempt to make sure someone doesn't forfeit their soul.

But of course that doesn't matter if all truth is relative, right? ;)
 
I think religion in general is a good thing. I say all the time and really like the saying that "People's observations of their faith are as varied as people are themeselves." I really think this is true. Everyone's faith and beleif system is unique to them, even if they are the same religion as others in name. I think it gives comfort to a very large portion of the population in making us feel we're not alone, life is not pointless, were aren't dust in the wind, there is an afterlife, whatever...... It's only when hundreds of millions of people are killed in the name of it that it really pisses me off, and this is still going on today in some parts of the world. Thankfully not to the extent it once was but it's still going on. Christianne Amanpour had pretty awesome special called "G-d's Warriors" as a special report a while back where she interviewed people from a bunch of religions.

As far as the guilt thing, when people act wrongly, even people who hate religion as much as Catherine McKinnon hates a good dickin', they feel bad. Catholocism, while branded with the rep. of using fear and guilt and shame to compel virtuosity, is not alone in that regard. Shit my own mother did that to me, and not in the name of religion.

Mana Knight, you shouldn't feel bad for the stuff you did in church, little kids are supposed to screw around in church/synagogue. Now for making your family stop going to church and therefore abandoning G-d and their faith all because of you, that you should feel bad for you little devil child!
 
[quote name='The Crotch']I agree with the sentiment, but the last bit isn't exactly true. How "enjoyable" or "agreeable" a religion is has no real bearing on its truth...ful...ness...[/quote]

I'm not saying there's a direct casual relationship.

It's more of a general observation.

I also wasn't talking about the entertainment factor of a religion.

I'm just saying that if a religion constantly plays on fear or guilt to get you back in the fold, then you're likely just another sheep being exploited by the shepard.
 
I got guilted into religion. It happens quite a bit. Honestly, there's a ton of people who have their religious beliefs because of guilt trips from families.
Anyway, I'm really happy this thread is still alive! Thank you guys! Can we get that troll back in here? I want to read some more confusing posts from him.
 
[quote name='camoor']If you feel guilty you must have been raised Catholic.

My advice is to let it go, any religion that tries to guilt you into believing it is a sham.[/QUOTE]I'm not Catholic. I have some Catholic relatives, but I'm not.
 
How can someone who doesn't believe in a god blame said god for the bad things that happen to them? And if no one can prove if there is or isn't a god can you fault atheists for not believing in one? And why if atheists thought there was a god do you assume they would be Christian (and therefore do anything on sunday)?

Sorry in advance for the rant...

One cannot prove or disprove the existence of God (first hint, that's called faith...) on the other hand, it's actually quite easy to question the veracity of a religion. You wanna hear the first place to start? What would you consider to be the definition of faith? Possibly, the belief in something that is in no way provable through evidence, etc. To most religions, their holy book is written by God, a fact, and there is evidence for their form of worship in their holy book, once again another fact to them. "You need to believe the word, the FACT that God came as a man and put down his life for your sins..." Hmmm... so, I should believe in what your saying because it actually happened? Well then, that wouldn't be faith it would be called obedience. Somehow I think reigious people confuse the two into a massive contradiction of what faith really is.

To anyone who has actually read these books, in every case they are extremely flawed. Off the top of my head, I can name dozens of contradictions I caught on my first read through. People have mentioned the Old Testament a great deal. Yeah, that's a screwed up book, certainly. My biggest beef? God commanding the Israelites to massacre the Caananites "every man, woman and child." I've heard the most hideous apologists state hilarious justifications. I would hope Christians would read The Prince by Machiavelli before they even open their mouth (ie. ends justify the means). I could go on...

Here is the way I see everything... (it's definitely no more true than anyone else can come up with, but I feel it's where I am heading).

Is there a God? Absolutedly! Why? There is no evidence for him, and naturally, that creates faith. If there was evidence, I would know that God is false because it would be a CONTRADICTION of faith. If you think within the three biggies' circle. The whole human experience boils down to faith. For example (completely based on Christian dogma), angels do God's will because they know him personally, witnessed his power. Humans are unique, they are the only creatures that could do faith because they do not know God on that same level, therefore they don't "obey" like angels do, they develop faith. What other purpose could there be?

What is his will for us? No one really knows, although many will claim to know in exchange for your money and obedience. Stay FAR away from anyone who claims this.

Is their an afterlife? No one knows, but life is a gift unto its self, savor it. It's more necessary to prove you deserved the life you were already given.

What is the goal in life? Tough one... I believe the only thing you could be "judged" on in life is your personal relationships with others. Respect, humility, compassion, love... what more tells about your heart and character more than how you choose to treat others. Do good not for yourself, not to "earn" access to Heaven, for pride or self-righteousness. Why else, but because it is the right thing to do.

Oh well, blah blah blah, think of things analytically, logically... if you choose to love God, do it with your heart, soul and MIND. Not because someone told you all the reasons why, but you have faith that something touches you beyond your own understanding.

Good luck on your journey, you're not alone.

-Dr. Ugly :bouncy:
 
Dr. Ugly -- you may enjoy reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It begins with an incredibly interesting logic-based argument for the existence of God.
 
[quote name='PagingDrUgly']Rant[/quote]

Here's the thing about faith - it never used to be nearly as important. Let me explain.

In the past, faith was obviously part of religion. Faith that whatever god would help you through bad times, protect you from bad times, etc., but not faith that a god existed. That's reasonably new. Before there was any other way to explain anything, those religious explanations were only logical to people - they made sense. So now we're supposed to have faith where people used to use logic. I'm going to keep using logic instead.


And t0llenz, is that the moral argument?
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']Or, I should say, lack therof. I am Atheist and just to make myself clear, I don't mean to trash talk religion at all. I've had strange occurences and it's really making me scratch my head.

First things first, day one. There's an odd group with bullhorns and the such outside of McDonalds. I peer from across the street after coming out of the restaurant I had dinner in and overhear that they are born-again Christians. They were singing and even trying to talk to the cars that stopped at the traffic light.
Now, maybe this was immature on my end (although at the time I found them to be yelling in bull horns and stopping people in cars immature) but after I got in my car, I drove by and shouted, "Religion is meaningless rhetoric and you are going to lead pointless lives!" This one guy simply smiled and waved, which I found odd.

Now, day two. I was getting out of work (probably about 20 miles away from where I was in day one) and I noticed an even stranger oddity. There was a man on the sidewalk, on his knees, with a giant Vash\Trigun cross over his shoulder. Just sitting there. I drove by and this time I decided not to shout anything immature since, you know, he was just chilling on the sidewalk with his cross.

The third day, I was driving to work and something in me strongly prompted me to look at the car that was ahead of me and its license plate. I did so and noticed the plate read, "R U SAVED."

I'm not making any of this up. These series of events have me questioning my belief system. Could I be wrong? Before this decision was very easy for me to make. But I just saw two strange events right in a row after some religious dude waved and smiled at me. I'm kind of freaked out. Advice? Also, I welcome the funny, smart ass, and serious replies. Thank you![/QUOTE]

if that's all it takes to challenge your belief system maybe you're looking for a new one. if you want a shot of reason go read a "god is not great" by christopher hitchens or "the god delusion" by richard dawkins. that'll get you all full of logic and stuff.

here are some audible previes for your cheapass
http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/pr...p?productID=BK_HACH_000034&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/pr...p?productID=BK_TANT_000313&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
 
I haven't read Mere Christianity in years, but it is an interesting read. It does discuss things beginning with a universal morality placed in humans, where all people agree that certain things are right and wrong, like murder, stealing, etc. I'm not saying it'd convert a person, (though it did help to do so to Francis Collins, one of the key players in the human genome project), but it's incredibly well thought out.
 
I read the first chapter of Mere Christianity, and that was all I needed. His argument is basically that there is a sort of universal morality, therefore God. Having studied evolution quite a bit, this premise is utterly ridiculous. I recommend looking at the work of Frans de Waal if you want an actual explanation for this "universal morality."
 
Yeah if you're talking about the morality one I've seen the argument and I don't really think there's a lot to it. It's one of those things that seems to make sense until you really start thinking about it and then it falls apart.
 
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