Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

A few months ago someone was saying we need new blood in here, things are a bit more lively now but I'd prefer quality over quantity.
 
That's why Sestak is going to beat Specter in the PA primary. He better, actually, since I worked my ass off to beat the deadline to switch parties and vote in the primary.
 
[quote name='IRHari']That's why Sestak is going to beat Specter in the PA primary. He better, actually, since I worked my ass off to beat the deadline to switch parties and vote in the primary.[/QUOTE]
I'm voting for 'none of the above' personally, since I just can't stand this political system already.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']For fuck sake, they don't have to suspect you of murder to stop you. "Oh you dropped some trash, that's littering, let me see your papers." The police have been stopping people for bullshit reason since the inception of the police force, this just gives them another reason to do it.

Don't you people get it? The police aren't fucking saints. You all seem to have a lot more faith in the police than i ever will. Which seems kind of strange since they're run by the government, the very thing you all seem to rally against.[/QUOTE]

And the very thing you want to give more and more power too.

I like how you go from the cops having "no reason" to having "bull**** reasons". Then, you go on to say how cops are already doing this anyway, but this is just giving them another reason. Because they need more reasons. Apparently. Because, even though they're already doing it for bull**** reasons, this new law is going to let them do it for no reason. Or something.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']And the very thing you want to give more and more power too.

I like how you go from the cops having "no reason" to having "bull**** reasons". Then, you go on to say how cops are already doing this anyway, but this is just giving them another reason. Because they need more reasons. Apparently. Because, even though they're already doing it for bull**** reasons, this new law is going to let them do it for no reason. Or something.[/QUOTE]
Yes it gives them another reason, before it was just be to harass someone, now they can really fuck with them. But even if you were right, why give them another excuse? Do you really think they need another reason? The police can already do basically whatever they want, unless you have footage of a cop beating the hell out of someone, no judge is going to believe you.

And i don't want to give the police any more power, they have enough already as it is. But as i said, you all seem to think that wearing that blue uniform somehow makes them saints.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Yeah you're right. Neon signs on the border every 5 miles that say "welcome" or "open" is a better,cheaper, idea, and at least then we aren't winking.

And when we eliminate the INS we'll save a bundle to.

Hell, build a free-to-ride train from Mexico City to El Passo, about the same price as a wall I bet.[/QUOTE]
Wtf are you rambling about you nutbar? Did you even read anything past the first couple of sentences? I'll take your lack of rebuttal as a sign that you agree with me.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The US admits more LEGAL immigrants than any other country in the world. Why can't they come legally? It can't be the money because Im fairly certain 1,130,000 people that come here legally arent just the ones that have money lol. Wait your fucking turn or break the law and get deported, it is their choice, and the illegals here made that choice.

What would you have us do with mexico? throw money at them?[/QUOTE]
Nah, lets take the GWB approach and invade Mexico under the pretense that they have some sort of horrible weapon.

Thanks for focusing on the first part of my post though. I wouldn't expect you to be able to see the real problem, your tunnel vision keeps you focused on one single thing and you can't see the forest for the tree.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Alright, i know most of us won't be surprised by the description of this guy, but he's the one behind most of the immigration law reform.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100510/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_architect[/QUOTE]
My problem with these types of guys is that they're opportunists, essentially leeches. They (he's not the only one) take fees to write laws they KNOW will be challenged, then "consult" for the governing agency during the court battle and soak up another fat paycheck, then train the governing agency's workers and SURPRISE! MOAR MONEY PLZZZ.

The one thing we can all agree on is that illegals are here for employment. So how stupid do you have to be to go after everything illegals are involved in commercially and socially EXCEPT the employers?

Walls won't keep them out. They never work. Going after landlords is stupid. Thinly disguised profiling is stupid. Stop the employers from hiring them and they would all leave on their own. Period.

But nobody wants that.

To the supposed free market believers, why would any of you be anything but stridently pro-illegal immigration? Bringing labor to market is as much of cornerstone of a free market as bringing capital to market.
 
[quote name='speedracer']My problem with these types of guys is that they're opportunists, essentially leeches. They (he's not the only one) take fees to write laws they KNOW will be challenged, then "consult" for the governing agency during the court battle and soak up another fat paycheck, then train the governing agency's workers and SURPRISE! MOAR MONEY PLZZZ.

The one thing we can all agree on is that illegals are here for employment. So how stupid do you have to be to go after everything illegals are involved in commercially and socially EXCEPT the employers?

Walls won't keep them out. They never work. Going after landlords is stupid. Thinly disguised profiling is stupid. Stop the employers from hiring them and they would all leave on their own. Period.

But nobody wants that.

To the supposed free market believers, why would any of you be anything but stridently pro-illegal immigration? Bringing labor to market is as much of cornerstone of a free market as bringing capital to market.[/QUOTE]

Yep, attack what they are targeting, the work to send money home.

If only they would seriously crack down on it.... Businesses get raided, but do they get punished for it?

If illegals can't find work, they won't be around.
 
The raids are themselves essentially deals with the companies employing them. They do a raid, make it look like they're doing something, let the company hire some more people, then come and do it again later. I'm pretty sure they get out of paying some of the workers' wages that way too.
 
[quote name='xycury']Yep, attack what they are targeting, the work to send money home.

If only they would seriously crack down on it.... Businesses get raided, but do they get punished for it?

If illegals can't find work, they won't be around.[/QUOTE]

In my opinion the point isn't to keep illegal from doing the crap jobs for low pay but as policy to keep the right wing base 'tarded up. It also has the ancillary but positive (to them) effect of keeping illegals in general from getting ideas about being treated like human beings and intimidating brown citizens.

Going after businesses that hire them would probably work, there are crappy jobs out there that used to be good paying and not so crappy like those in the meatpacking industry.
 
[quote name='xycury']Yep, attack what they are targeting, the work to send money home.

If only they would seriously crack down on it.... Businesses get raided, but do they get punished for it?

If illegals can't find work, they won't be around.[/QUOTE]
Write a law that fines a business $10,000 for each violation. More than 3 violations ever or at once and you get an automatic 1-3 month jail term for the supervisor and the owner of the business. More than 5 violations and your business is closed permanently and all property is ceded to the governing authority for auction.

Shit would end the second the ink was dry. There would be a handful of high profile cases (I'm looking at you, Tyson Chicken) to make it real and that would be it. Not only would we not have to spend the resources with all these hide and seek bullshit games, legislative games, enforcement games, prison games, federal games, state games, and Joe Arpaio games, but it would actually create an incentive to LEAVE THE COUNTRY, which is that other thing that's impossibly expensive.

Whether it's a smart move is a different story.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Going after businesses that hire them would probably work, there are crappy jobs out there that used to be good paying and not so crappy like those in the meatpacking industry.[/QUOTE]

Hey now, if we paid meatpackers a decent wage the average American could only eat like 1 pound of meat a week instead of 4. And if you're not eating a half a pound of meat every day then how can you possibly get your essential meatamins?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']JJ's coffee must have been rancid this morning....[/QUOTE]
Actually my Frappe was quite good.:cool:
 
lol meatamins.

I don't see why we shouldn't make employers crack down on that.

Is it because we really don't have a citizen ID?
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Nah, lets take the GWB approach and invade Mexico under the pretense that they have some sort of horrible weapon.

Thanks for focusing on the first part of my post though. I wouldn't expect you to be able to see the real problem, your tunnel vision keeps you focused on one single thing and you can't see the forest for the tree.[/QUOTE]

? I asked you what you think we should do with Mexico and you say I cant see the real problem? lol nice response...

I thought it wasnt our problem what other countries do, remember we want to be isolationist.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Yes it gives them another reason, before it was just be to harass someone, now they can really fuck with them. But even if you were right, why give them another excuse? Do you really think they need another reason? The police can already do basically whatever they want, unless you have footage of a cop beating the hell out of someone, no judge is going to believe you.

And i don't want to give the police any more power, they have enough already as it is. But as i said, you all seem to think that wearing that blue uniform somehow makes them saints.[/QUOTE]

Basically the law says the AZ government can be sued if they don't harass enough.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...clause_in_az_immigration_law_lets_citizen.php
 
[quote name='xycury']I don't see why we shouldn't make employers crack down on that.

Is it because we really don't have a citizen ID?[/QUOTE]
No. It's because the government by design is limited in its ability to do anything at all to its citizens. With multiple centuries worth of tortured case law about what probable cause is and isn't, the government is the single worst entity to proactively seek out illegal immigrants. That's what makes offloading this to business so appealing. They can ask virtually anything (there are specific limits), and certainly their ability far outstrips the government.

What would happen in reality after a law like the one I proposed is that a market would spring up to service the law. Companies would be contracted to verify citizenship, just like they do now to verify employment history, credit history, etc.

It's easy, it's the ultimate free market response, it's by far the most comprehensive answer, and it doesn't cost the government a dollar. Naturally nobody suggests it because... there's no money in it for anyone.
 
Like speed was saying they don't want to do anything about the problem because among other things businesses especially low wage anti-union businessmen like the cheap expendable labor.

This is about keeping their extra-chromosome base riled up.
 
[quote name='Msut77']This is about keeping their extra-chromosome base riled up.[/QUOTE]

I wonder what Corky Thatcher would have to say about this...
 
[quote name='xxDOYLExx']I wonder what Corky Thatcher would have to say about this...[/QUOTE]

Herp Derp?

But seriously, it is a Lee Atwater reference.
 
[quote name='speedracer']No. It's because the government by design is limited in its ability to do anything at all to its citizens. With multiple centuries worth of tortured case law about what probable cause is and isn't, the government is the single worst entity to proactively seek out illegal immigrants. That's what makes offloading this to business so appealing. They can ask virtually anything (there are specific limits), and certainly their ability far outstrips the government.

What would happen in reality after a law like the one I proposed is that a market would spring up to service the law. Companies would be contracted to verify citizenship, just like they do now to verify employment history, credit history, etc.

It's easy, it's the ultimate free market response, it's by far the most comprehensive answer, and it doesn't cost the government a dollar. Naturally nobody suggests it because... there's no money in it for anyone.[/QUOTE]

ah, so no one is making any money off of it.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Nah, lets take the GWB approach and invade Mexico under the pretense that they have some sort of horrible weapon.

Thanks for focusing on the first part of my post though. I wouldn't expect you to be able to see the real problem, your tunnel vision keeps you focused on one single thing and you can't see the forest for the tree.[/QUOTE]
:lol:

Why not just suggest we build a 'moat' by digging down to where the Gulf Of Mexico/Pacific Ocean would fill in and filling it with sharks and other predatory fish and chum the waters in that moat? Or nuke Mexico?

We certainly don't need another quagmire like Iraq/Afghanistan(and now possibly Pakistan due to the 'evidence' of the NYC failed bomber being trained there:roll:) that we can never get our troops out of.
 
here's my question and not to be rude but how many American kids are actully going to go work the fields? or food processing plants. I know some will but for years they have interviewed farmers from Cali to New York who all say the same thing "Mexican Labor is cheap fast and efficient". People complain about the cost of food today and someone brought up food processing plants,.. as someone who's worked in the food industry for over 10 yrs I can tell you this much I don't care if it's Tyson or Predue your not going to find people willing to do these jobs , I've seen "White Boys" quit the day they started and shutter at the thought of seeing how chicken , beef and fish are processed and made.

Maybe when Nixon closed the border back in 68' it should of stayed closed.

IMO - Build a bigger wall and have interment camps in the bordering states. Farmers can get Mexicans and pay the government their wages , the Mexicans can earn points for citizenship and while we have a huge mass of them they could produce clothing and other materials to help the economy. Or we could just single them out like the Jews were in 1933 and make them where special badges labeling them legal from illegal...Thanks Arizona for making your illegals run scared to neighboring states
 
[quote name='bubbafett4hire'] Or we could just single them out like the Jews were in 1933 and make them where special badges labeling them legal from illegal...[/QUOTE]
Worst sales pitch ever?
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Worst sales pitch ever?[/QUOTE]
Wasn't trying to throw a sales pitch just making a sarcastic statement about what this law is leading up to
 
[quote name='bubbafett4hire']here's my question and not to be rude but how many American kids are actully going to go work the fields? or food processing plants. I know some will but for years they have interviewed farmers from Cali to New York who all say the same thing "Mexican Labor is cheap fast and efficient". People complain about the cost of food today and someone brought up food processing plants,.. as someone who's worked in the food industry for over 10 yrs I can tell you this much I don't care if it's Tyson or Predue your not going to find people willing to do these jobs , I've seen "White Boys" quit the day they started and shutter at the thought of seeing how chicken , beef and fish are processed and made.[/QUOTE]
I'll admit I went to work for a packing plant back in the day and I couldn't even get past the stench by the front door, that's how pervasive it was.

As far as the illegals running to neighboring states, they've been doing that for a LONG while already. Although I do believe that Lou Barletta(mayor of a city about 30-40 miles from here) went after the wrong targets with his law barring illegals from renting in his city.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Yes it gives them another reason, before it was just be to harass someone, now they can really fuck with them. But even if you were right, why give them another excuse? Do you really think they need another reason? The police can already do basically whatever they want, unless you have footage of a cop beating the hell out of someone, no judge is going to believe you.[/QUOTE]

So, basically, before, police were harassing illegal immigrants for no reason what so ever. Now, they have a reason (you know, that pesky 'enforcing the law' thing) and you're upset?
 
God damn you're a stubborn individual. You'll only look at it from a perspective that they're enforcing the law, you don't care what means they use to do it. You don't care if it encourages them to stop anyone they "suspect" of being illegal on nothing but the fact that they are brown people. Now they'll have the likely excuse of "we're just trying to enforce the law." Never mind that it isn't even the job of the Arizona police to enforce immigration laws in the first fucking place.

What the hell does an illegal even look like to begin with? "Oh there are two brown people walking down the street together, that's suspicious." I can only wait and see how many false positives this creates for the police, that being them stopping people who are in fact legal. That will prove just how ridiculous this is.

I'd love to see every "illegal" in this country to stop work for one day, just one single day. Just to see how much productivity would be lost. We depend so much on that cheap labor, that if it was lost over night, some businesses probably wouldn't even be able to survive and the prices we pay for many things would most likely skyrocket.

edit- We've been discussing food and taxes/subsidies, you know what would happen to the prices of food if suddenly farmers had to pay twice as much or more for labor? We're basically living high on the backs of these people, then some of us have the nerve to bitch about them. The way we live is a bit of a lie really, supported much by these people willing to work for nearly nothing.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']God damn you're a stubborn individual. You'll only look at it from a perspective that they're enforcing the law, you don't care what means they use to do it. You don't care if it encourages them to stop anyone they "suspect" of being illegal on nothing but the fact that they are brown people. Now they'll have the likely excuse of "we're just trying to enforce the law." Never mind that it isn't even the job of the Arizona police to enforce immigration laws in the first fucking place.

What the hell does an illegal even look like to begin with? "Oh there are two brown people walking down the street together, that's suspicious." I can only wait and see how many false positives this creates for the police, that being them stopping people who are in fact legal. That will prove just how ridiculous this is.

I'd love to see every "illegal" in this country to stop work for one day, just one single day. Just to see how much productivity would be lost. We depend so much on that cheap labor, that if it was lost over night, some businesses probably wouldn't even be able to survive and the prices we pay for many things would most likely skyrocket.

edit- We've been discussing food and taxes/subsidies, you know what would happen to the prices of food if suddenly farmers had to pay twice as much or more for labor? We're basically living high on the backs of these people, then some of us have the nerve to bitch about them. The way we live is a bit of a lie really, supported much by these people willing to work for nearly nothing.[/QUOTE]

Three things:

A.) I'm not a fan of this law. Said it before and I'll say it again.
B.) Again, show me a situation where individuals of color have been harassed because of this bill and nothing else. A bad cop will be a bad cop regardless of what rules are in place.
C.) When your defense is "We need these illegals so we can exploit their labor!", you should probably consider taking a step back and re-evaluating the situation.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Never mind that it isn't even the job of the Arizona police to enforce immigration laws in the first fucking place.[/QUOTE]

And you're right - it isn't. It's the Federal Government's place. And they weren't doing their job. That's why we're in the situation we're in now. Weird.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Three things:

A.) I'm not a fan of this law. Said it before and I'll say it again.
B.) Again, show me a situation where individuals of color have been harassed because of this bill and nothing else. A bad cop will be a bad cop regardless of what rules are in place.
C.) When your defense is "We need these illegals so we can exploit their labor!", you should probably consider taking a step back and re-evaluating the situation.[/QUOTE]
A) Then stop defending it.
B) I've been over this already, it just gives the police another likely excuse, I'm not going to say it again. It's like someone already having a pistol and you giving them a shotgun just in case they need it.
C) I'm not sure of what you're getting at, I never said we should exploit them, i was trying to say that we should be thankful for them rather than demonizing them.The fact that you somehow twist that into something bad isn't surprising. Some people can't admit that these people contribute anything positive to the country, no they're just a bunch of criminals mooching off the system.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']A) Then stop defending it.
B) I've been over this already, it just gives the police another likely excuse, I'm not going to say it again. It's like someone already having a pistol and you giving them a shotgun just in case they need it.
C) I'm not sure of what you're getting at, I never said we should exploit them, i was trying to say that we should be thankful for them rather than demonizing them.The fact that you somehow twist that into something bad isn't surprising. Some people can't admit that these people contribute anything positive to the country, no they're just a bunch of criminals mooching off the system.[/QUOTE]

A.) Merely discussing the facts of the situation. It's an interesting case. Besides, I don't like it for reasons other than you do. Like I said before, I agree with the *idea* behind it... A little uncomfortable with the method of execution.
B.) If the person is a bad cop, then it doesn't matter how many excuses they've got, they're going to abuse the power. The problem in this situation isn't the law, it's the individual enforcing it. You can choose to throw out all the laws you want because you don't trust (some? most?) of the people enforcing them - but that's not going to solve anything.
C.) You're saying that these illegal immigrants are awesome because they let us exploit them, so, instead of trying to stop their illegal activity, we should ignore it and continue to exploit them or else our entire economy will fail. Or something.
 
The idea that actually enforcing an already existing federal law will somehow lead to more racist behavior by cops is the very definition of a straw man argument. That line of reasoning is based 0% on evidence and 100% on conjecture.

Being afraid to enforce a law simply because it might weed out some bad caps that might exploit said law is the worst reason I've ever heard to not have a law.
 
No, the argument is that in order to even enforce the AZ law as written will lead to racial profiling. People are saying that even if it is banned in the law, it is impossible to enforce the law without resorting to racial profiling and targeting Hispanics.
 
[quote name='IRHari']No, the argument is that in order to even enforce the AZ law as written will lead to racial profiling. People are saying that even if it is banned in the law, it is impossible to enforce the law without resorting to racial profiling and targeting Hispanics.[/QUOTE]

I didn't know verifying a detained individuals citizen status before release is impossible to enforce.

here you go, this guys can explain it to you better than I can. Hopefully you will listen.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/04/26/john-lott-arizona-immigration-law-fear-enforcement/

The law specifically bans picking up someone just because they are Hispanic or even because the person was originally from Mexico or any other country you can read a copy of the law right here. Anyone arrested for a crime must have their immigration status determined before they are released. Thus, it is not just Hispanics who will be required to provide evidence of citizenship, but so will all whites, blacks and Asians. If the eligibility for public services depends on citizenship, again, everyone who applies, regardless of race, will have to provide an ID. In other circumstances, law enforcement officials must have reasonable suspicion, not based simply on the person's race or origin, that the individual is an illegal alien before they can ask to check someone's ID.

Even if a person does not present the required ID, that doesn't necessarily mean the person faces problems. The new Arizona law requires that "a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person." Today, this is not hard to accomplish quickly as computer records have photographs and other identifying details for people who have state-issued IDs. The only exception to making "a reasonable attempt" is if making that investigation would "hinder or obstruct" a criminal investigation. That isn't going to effect many cases.
 
1. Arrest anybody without ID.
2. Without citizenship, there is no haebus corpus through the Military Commission Act.
3. Detain person as an enemy combatant if the person resists in any way.
4. Profit through the Prison Industry complex.
 
[quote name='bubbafett4hire']here's my question and not to be rude but how many American kids are actully going to go work the fields? or food processing plants. I know some will but for years they have interviewed farmers from Cali to New York who all say the same thing "Mexican Labor is cheap fast and efficient". People complain about the cost of food today and someone brought up food processing plants,.. as someone who's worked in the food industry for over 10 yrs I can tell you this much I don't care if it's Tyson or Predue your not going to find people willing to do these jobs[/quote]
Of course you would find people, but the price would have to be right. This is where the magic of the market would set in.

And anyone that says food is expensive is retarded. It's ridiculously subsidized through illegal laborers and direct federal subsidies. It's also a large part of the reason we're so goddamn fat. The only reason shit food can make it to market is because of these subsidies. Take them away and decent food becomes a value proposition. Clean, healthy, well done food is incredibly affordable, but no one looks for it because shit is even cheaper.

Oh look, another E Coli scare. What a shocker.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']1. Arrest anybody without ID.
2. Without citizenship, there is no haebus corpus through the Military Commission Act.
3. Detain person as an enemy combatant if the person resists in any way.
4. Profit through the Prison Industry complex.[/QUOTE]

They have to be in trouble with the police to be asked for ID from the police. And if they dont have ID a simple computer check can confirm citizenship nowadays.
 
[quote name='IRHari']No, the argument is that in order to even enforce the AZ law as written will lead to racial profiling. [/QUOTE]

The AZ law as written is pretty identical to the Federal Law that isn't enforced. There is nothing special about it. If and when racial profiling occurs, the police can/will/should be sued.

Here is a sad newsflash for you: Many cops already racial profile.

There is nothing but assumption and conjecture to show that this law will increase that. So it's hard to make that the basis of your argument to get rid of the law.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']The idea that actually enforcing an already existing federal law will somehow lead to more racist behavior by cops is the very definition of a straw man argument. That line of reasoning is based 0% on evidence and 100% on conjecture.

Being afraid to enforce a law simply because it might weed out some bad caps that might exploit said law is the worst reason I've ever heard to not have a law.[/QUOTE]
No it isn't, not at all. As i've already said more times than i can remember, this gives them another likely excuse. They couldn't use the excuse of enforcing immigration law before, now they can. It gives them another layer of protection from being seen as racially profiling.

Before they would have only had some flimsy bullshit excuse like someone was littering or jaywalking, now they have an excuse that many people will actually applaud them for using. Like i said before, we'll see how many false positives this creates, maybe then people will see how this is basically impossible to enforce without basing it on race.

Here's another thought, if this law is basically identical to federal law, which as was said isn't enforced, maybe there is a reason it isn't enforced? Maybe even the feds realize that it's fundamentally flawed.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']No it isn't, not at all. As i've already said more times than i can remember, this gives them another likely excuse. They couldn't use the excuse of enforcing immigration law before, now they can. It gives them another layer of protection from being seen as racially profiling.

Before they would have only had some flimsy bullshit excuse like someone was littering or jaywalking, now they have an excuse that many people will actually applaud them for using. Like i said before, we'll see how many false positives this creates, maybe then people will see how this is basically impossible to enforce without basing it on race.[/QUOTE]

You are wrong here. They cannot ask for the ID of people who have done nothing wrong, or else they can and probably will be sued. Why do you continue to ignore this?
 
[quote name='speedracer']Of course you would find people, but the price would have to be right. This is where the magic of the market would set in.

And anyone that says food is expensive is retarded. It's ridiculously subsidized through illegal laborers and direct federal subsidies. It's also a large part of the reason we're so goddamn fat. The only reason shit food can make it to market is because of these subsidies. Take them away and decent food becomes a value proposition. Clean, healthy, well done food is incredibly affordable, but no one looks for it because shit is even cheaper.

Oh look, another E Coli scare. What a shocker.[/QUOTE]
I wish badly that there was a way to predict what would happen if every single illegal laborer suddenly left the country. I'd love to see how the prices of food especially would be effected. Oh but there are plenty of legal Americans who would take those jobs. Yeah I'd love to see if that happened too.

People won't admit it, but to sustain the current American lifestyle, we need these people. I'd love to see us change our ways personally, but there are plenty more who don't want to change one bit. Those who are the most stubborn about changing seem to be the ones who want the illegals out the most.
 
[quote name='Knoell']You are wrong here. They cannot ask for the ID of people who have done nothing wrong, or else they can and probably will be sued. Why do you continue to ignore this?[/QUOTE]

Why do you ignore my link pointing out that the AZ Cops etc. can be sued if they don't harass enough people?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Why do you ignore my link pointing out that the AZ Cops etc. can be sued if they don't harass enough people?[/QUOTE]
because I have you blocked, I check up on you every so often when I see your posts, this time I wanted to see what was getting Joliet all riled up lol. And also that clause is inserted to prevent certain parts of Arizona from becoming "santuary cities" not for the average citizen to sue. You are misinterpreting it and how is an individual supposed to prove they arent doing their job unless the cops actually let an illegal go? And if they do let an illegal go they should be sued...
 
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