What is the test for a secure border? No illegals getting through, 100 illegals a day or less, 50 or less, what exactly? Because if you say none at all, then yeah i'd say the border can never be secured. I don't think there has ever been a country in the history of the world that has had a totally secure border and the Great Wall of North America isn't the answer either. I don't think that any physical barrier is the ultimate answer to be honest. If you want to stop people from coming here illegally, take away whatever incentive brings them here. Just look at the way illegal immigration has slowed since the economy took a nose dive.
Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill
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fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Knoell']How bad does our southern border have to get before we will stop ignoring the criminal activities illegal immigration, human trafficking, drug and firearm smuggling, etc bring to our country? I would think that declaring a portion of the 
ing UNITED STATES unsafe to travel would raise a god damn red flag. God damn you people.[/QUOTE]
That was what Clak was talking about, Bob.
I know, I know. You have Knoell on ignore and don't like it when people quote. Yada Yada Yada.
ing UNITED STATES unsafe to travel would raise a god damn red flag. God damn you people.[/QUOTE]That was what Clak was talking about, Bob.
I know, I know. You have Knoell on ignore and don't like it when people quote. Yada Yada Yada.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Msut77']Are you willing to spend whatever it takes to "close the border"?
Billions, tens of billions?[/QUOTE]
As much as it takes. So long as I don't have to pay for it directly or indirectly.
Billions, tens of billions?[/QUOTE]
As much as it takes. So long as I don't have to pay for it directly or indirectly.
[quote name='budsmoka']Put up troops at the border with guns. Give them some choppers and drones as air support. Make it clear that you will kill anyone illegally crossing the boarder. Thats what they do in Korea and it works.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, who wants to go to Korea?
To be fair, who wants to go to Korea?
[quote name='Clak']What is the test for a secure border? No illegals getting through, 100 illegals a day or less, 50 or less, what exactly? Because if you say none at all, then yeah i'd say the border can never be secured. I don't think there has ever been a country in the history of the world that has had a totally secure border and the Great Wall of North America isn't the answer either. I don't think that any physical barrier is the ultimate answer to be honest. If you want to stop people from coming here illegally, take away whatever incentive brings them here. Just look at the way illegal immigration has slowed since the economy took a nose dive.[/QUOTE]
Right now its pretty clear the border has a significant lack of resources including but not limited to personnel, equipment, and training. Im fairly certain a combination of building some type of barrier, manning that barrier with soldiers, making it actually illegal to be illegal, and more harsh penalties for employers will stop the problem dead.
But you guys aren't looking for solutions, you are trying to blow a hole in any solution in order to keep the status quo. You believe there is nothing wrong with the border, security or otherwise and it would be a waste of money to secure it.
Fine believe what you believe but when we have to start sectioning off areas as "too dangerous" for our citizens to travel, I would expect the federal government to fix it.
Right now its pretty clear the border has a significant lack of resources including but not limited to personnel, equipment, and training. Im fairly certain a combination of building some type of barrier, manning that barrier with soldiers, making it actually illegal to be illegal, and more harsh penalties for employers will stop the problem dead.
But you guys aren't looking for solutions, you are trying to blow a hole in any solution in order to keep the status quo. You believe there is nothing wrong with the border, security or otherwise and it would be a waste of money to secure it.
Fine believe what you believe but when we have to start sectioning off areas as "too dangerous" for our citizens to travel, I would expect the federal government to fix it.
[quote name='Clak']What is the test for a secure border? No illegals getting through, 100 illegals a day or less, 50 or less, what exactly? Because if you say none at all, then yeah i'd say the border can never be secured. I don't think there has ever been a country in the history of the world that has had a totally secure border and the Great Wall of North America isn't the answer either. I don't think that any physical barrier is the ultimate answer to be honest. If you want to stop people from coming here illegally, take away whatever incentive brings them here. Just look at the way illegal immigration has slowed since the economy took a nose dive.[/QUOTE]
The only incentive they have is jobs (even in this recession illegals can't find jobs) and free healthcare. . The latter really pisses me off. My brother in law is a surgeon and the amount of illegals he does surgery on free of charge is just sickening (free meaning the illegal person doesn't pay for it..we do in taxes). On a side note Recessions seriously slow down immigration.
Heres my opinion, when a US citizen is in another country without a visa or passport what rights do they have...None...absolutely none. Same goes if a US citizen goes to mexico. Seriously my buddy went to mexico and was threaten with jail time if he didn't pay a cop a bullshit bribe for no reason. For these reasons alone I feel that no illegal where ever they come from should have any sort of legal rights or recourse on us soil. Since no American citizen has any rights elsewhere...whats fair is fair. Thats just me though.
In any case, heres my solution to problem and I think it's pretty fair. If you want to work and live in American give these people work visas, tax them like a normal citizen, give them health care, and make them renew their visa once a year. If they've lived here for a certain amount of time and have proven themselves to be responsible, law biding, tax paying citizen then give them the opportunity for full blown US citizen. Anyone that has caused a serious crime, isn't working, or isn't paying taxes should be deported back to their home land.
FYI if we wanted to physically seal the border we could do it. We have done it in past in early American history to slow down the spread of illegals from south of the boarder.
The only incentive they have is jobs (even in this recession illegals can't find jobs) and free healthcare. . The latter really pisses me off. My brother in law is a surgeon and the amount of illegals he does surgery on free of charge is just sickening (free meaning the illegal person doesn't pay for it..we do in taxes). On a side note Recessions seriously slow down immigration.
Heres my opinion, when a US citizen is in another country without a visa or passport what rights do they have...None...absolutely none. Same goes if a US citizen goes to mexico. Seriously my buddy went to mexico and was threaten with jail time if he didn't pay a cop a bullshit bribe for no reason. For these reasons alone I feel that no illegal where ever they come from should have any sort of legal rights or recourse on us soil. Since no American citizen has any rights elsewhere...whats fair is fair. Thats just me though.
In any case, heres my solution to problem and I think it's pretty fair. If you want to work and live in American give these people work visas, tax them like a normal citizen, give them health care, and make them renew their visa once a year. If they've lived here for a certain amount of time and have proven themselves to be responsible, law biding, tax paying citizen then give them the opportunity for full blown US citizen. Anyone that has caused a serious crime, isn't working, or isn't paying taxes should be deported back to their home land.
FYI if we wanted to physically seal the border we could do it. We have done it in past in early American history to slow down the spread of illegals from south of the boarder.
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I'll agree with the interior of your post about citizenship for illegals, the rest can go. Sealing a border would not slow immigration, it would stop it. Sealing the border is impossible, somebody will find a way through. If it meant using a plane and parachuting out over U.S. soil, somebody would find a way. What you're talking about (slowing immigration) is not sealing the border.
I remember a lot of talk a few years ago about America having the moral high ground on issues, well if we start treating people in the way you say we would be treated in Mexico, there goes the high ground. Can't complain about your treatment when you treat someone the same way. Also, your friend's experience in Mexico does not represent the experience of Americans in every foreign country on earth.
I remember a lot of talk a few years ago about America having the moral high ground on issues, well if we start treating people in the way you say we would be treated in Mexico, there goes the high ground. Can't complain about your treatment when you treat someone the same way. Also, your friend's experience in Mexico does not represent the experience of Americans in every foreign country on earth.
[quote name='Clak']I'll agree with the interior of your post about citizenship for illegals, the rest can go. Sealing a border would not slow immigration, it would stop it. Sealing the border is impossible, somebody will find a way through. If it meant using a plane and parachuting out over U.S. soil, somebody would find a way. What you're talking about (slowing immigration) is not sealing the border.
I remember a lot of talk a few years ago about America having the moral high ground on issues, well if we start treating people in the way you say we would be treated in Mexico, there goes the high ground. Can't complain about your treatment when you treat someone the same way. Also, your friend's experience in Mexico does not represent the experience of Americans in every foreign country on earth.[/QUOTE]
securing the border will affect legal immigration? I would have never guessed.
Again I will state that you all are not looking for a solution but to keep the status quo.
I remember a lot of talk a few years ago about America having the moral high ground on issues, well if we start treating people in the way you say we would be treated in Mexico, there goes the high ground. Can't complain about your treatment when you treat someone the same way. Also, your friend's experience in Mexico does not represent the experience of Americans in every foreign country on earth.[/QUOTE]
securing the border will affect legal immigration? I would have never guessed.
Again I will state that you all are not looking for a solution but to keep the status quo.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Knoell']securing the border will affect legal immigration? I would have never guessed.
Again I will state that you all are not looking for a solution but to keep the status quo.[/QUOTE]
Nope. We just recognize nobody will actually pay for it.
What do you want to cut from the budget that you normally wouldn't want to see cut to pay to secure the border OR how much more of your income will you hand over to the gubmint to secure the border?
For example, saying "I would cut Medicare." is bullshit because you would cut most "entitlement" programs given any chance.
For example, saying "I would give up the interstate system." is valid because nobody has put the illegal immigrant problem over the interstate system.
Again I will state that you all are not looking for a solution but to keep the status quo.[/QUOTE]
Nope. We just recognize nobody will actually pay for it.
What do you want to cut from the budget that you normally wouldn't want to see cut to pay to secure the border OR how much more of your income will you hand over to the gubmint to secure the border?
For example, saying "I would cut Medicare." is bullshit because you would cut most "entitlement" programs given any chance.
For example, saying "I would give up the interstate system." is valid because nobody has put the illegal immigrant problem over the interstate system.
depascal22
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So how many millions must be spent before conservatives realize that our border is damn near impossible to seal?
We're not talking about a hundred mile border between the Koreas. There are thousands of miles of desert out there and it's kind of hard to find enough people when we're fighting two BS wars on another continent.
We're not talking about a hundred mile border between the Koreas. There are thousands of miles of desert out there and it's kind of hard to find enough people when we're fighting two BS wars on another continent.
[quote name='Knoell']securing the border will affect legal immigration? I would have never guessed.
Again I will state that you all are not looking for a solution but to keep the status quo.[/QUOTE]
damn, we said the same thing about you conservos and healthcare, and you called us crazy!
AZ's immigration bill does nothing to secure the border. it's like cleaning up the oil without addressing the hole...
Again I will state that you all are not looking for a solution but to keep the status quo.[/QUOTE]
damn, we said the same thing about you conservos and healthcare, and you called us crazy!
AZ's immigration bill does nothing to secure the border. it's like cleaning up the oil without addressing the hole...
depascal22
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No. It's like bitching about the oil without doing anything about the hole.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Nope. We just recognize nobody will actually pay for it.
What do you want to cut from the budget that you normally wouldn't want to see cut to pay to secure the border OR how much more of your income will you hand over to the gubmint to secure the border?
For example, saying "I would cut Medicare." is bullshit because you would cut most "entitlement" programs given any chance.
For example, saying "I would give up the interstate system." is valid because nobody has put the illegal immigrant problem over the interstate system.[/QUOTE]
I would pull about 90% or more of our military and bring them back home. Does that pay for it?
What do you want to cut from the budget that you normally wouldn't want to see cut to pay to secure the border OR how much more of your income will you hand over to the gubmint to secure the border?
For example, saying "I would cut Medicare." is bullshit because you would cut most "entitlement" programs given any chance.
For example, saying "I would give up the interstate system." is valid because nobody has put the illegal immigrant problem over the interstate system.[/QUOTE]
I would pull about 90% or more of our military and bring them back home. Does that pay for it?
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Nope. We just recognize nobody will actually pay for it.
What do you want to cut from the budget that you normally wouldn't want to see cut to pay to secure the border OR how much more of your income will you hand over to the gubmint to secure the border?
For example, saying "I would cut Medicare." is bullshit because you would cut most "entitlement" programs given any chance.
For example, saying "I would give up the interstate system." is valid because nobody has put the illegal immigrant problem over the interstate system.[/QUOTE]
Is building gianting walls in the constitution?
What do you want to cut from the budget that you normally wouldn't want to see cut to pay to secure the border OR how much more of your income will you hand over to the gubmint to secure the border?
For example, saying "I would cut Medicare." is bullshit because you would cut most "entitlement" programs given any chance.
For example, saying "I would give up the interstate system." is valid because nobody has put the illegal immigrant problem over the interstate system.[/QUOTE]
Is building giant
ing walls in the constitution?So, I have a question for those of you who think the answer lies in punishing employers.
Some people will disagree with me, but the "They took our job" immigrants aren't the ones that concern me too much. Granted, I would prefer them to be here legally, paying taxes, etc., etc. But if I have to pick between a group that actually works for a honest(-ish) day's pay and the ones who don't, I'm gonna side with the first group.
But let's say we enacted laws that would strip any business that knowingly hires illegal immigrants of their business license. The business's assets will be seized and turned over to the government.
That's well and good - but what do we do about those who aren't here to semi-legitimately work? What do we do about the ones who come in to traffic drugs? The ones who come in to bilk our taxpayer-funded services? What is your solution for these folks? Even if these types are a mere 1% of 1% of the people coming through the border - cutting of legitimate-ish jobs aren't going to stop them - what is your solution for this?
Some people will disagree with me, but the "They took our job" immigrants aren't the ones that concern me too much. Granted, I would prefer them to be here legally, paying taxes, etc., etc. But if I have to pick between a group that actually works for a honest(-ish) day's pay and the ones who don't, I'm gonna side with the first group.
But let's say we enacted laws that would strip any business that knowingly hires illegal immigrants of their business license. The business's assets will be seized and turned over to the government.
That's well and good - but what do we do about those who aren't here to semi-legitimately work? What do we do about the ones who come in to traffic drugs? The ones who come in to bilk our taxpayer-funded services? What is your solution for these folks? Even if these types are a mere 1% of 1% of the people coming through the border - cutting of legitimate-ish jobs aren't going to stop them - what is your solution for this?
perdition(troy
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[quote name='Msut77']Is building giant ing walls in the constitution?[/QUOTE]
nope, and neither is immigration
ing walls in the constitution?[/QUOTE]nope, and neither is immigration
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Msut77']Is building giant ing walls in the constitution?[/QUOTE]
If it is part of national defense.
ing walls in the constitution?[/QUOTE]If it is part of national defense.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='UncleBob']So, I have a question for those of you who think the answer lies in punishing employers.
Some people will disagree with me, but the "They took our job" immigrants aren't the ones that concern me too much. Granted, I would prefer them to be here legally, paying taxes, etc., etc. But if I have to pick between a group that actually works for a honest(-ish) day's pay and the ones who don't, I'm gonna side with the first group.
But let's say we enacted laws that would strip any business that knowingly hires illegal immigrants of their business license. The business's assets will be seized and turned over to the government.
That's well and good - but what do we do about those who aren't here to semi-legitimately work? What do we do about the ones who come in to traffic drugs? The ones who come in to bilk our taxpayer-funded services? What is your solution for these folks? Even if these types are a mere 1% of 1% of the people coming through the border - cutting of legitimate-ish jobs aren't going to stop them - what is your solution for this?[/QUOTE]
1% of 1% of 12 million is 1200. I would assume the prison system or local law enforcement can handle 1200 additional bodies across the entire country.
Some people will disagree with me, but the "They took our job" immigrants aren't the ones that concern me too much. Granted, I would prefer them to be here legally, paying taxes, etc., etc. But if I have to pick between a group that actually works for a honest(-ish) day's pay and the ones who don't, I'm gonna side with the first group.
But let's say we enacted laws that would strip any business that knowingly hires illegal immigrants of their business license. The business's assets will be seized and turned over to the government.
That's well and good - but what do we do about those who aren't here to semi-legitimately work? What do we do about the ones who come in to traffic drugs? The ones who come in to bilk our taxpayer-funded services? What is your solution for these folks? Even if these types are a mere 1% of 1% of the people coming through the border - cutting of legitimate-ish jobs aren't going to stop them - what is your solution for this?[/QUOTE]
1% of 1% of 12 million is 1200. I would assume the prison system or local law enforcement can handle 1200 additional bodies across the entire country.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']1% of 1% of 12 million is 1200. I would assume the prison system or local law enforcement can handle 1200 additional bodies across the entire country.[/QUOTE]
But why should we pay to jail them? I say put troops out there and let people know that crossing the boarder will result in getting shot.
But why should we pay to jail them? I say put troops out there and let people know that crossing the boarder will result in getting shot.
[quote name='budsmoka']But why should we pay to jail them? I say put troops out there and let people know that crossing the boarder will result in getting shot.[/QUOTE]
Well, to be fair, if it *was* only 1,200 people, it would probably be cheaper to jail them for life than to station troops along the border.
Perhaps I should have went a little higher than 1% of 1%.
Well, to be fair, if it *was* only 1,200 people, it would probably be cheaper to jail them for life than to station troops along the border.
Perhaps I should have went a little higher than 1% of 1%.
Impossible to seal and Impossible to pay for. Yep those two excuses will definately deem it hopeless. I guess we should just continue to spend billions on border security that doesn't actually work because why bother trying, we can't "completely" secure it anyway right?
Arizona cannot secure the border on their own. They have asked for the governments help time and time again. They resorted to this law because the government is just ignoring the problem. The people of Arizona overwhelmingly support that law. Have you ever even attempted to ask yourself why? Besides assuming they are dumb, or racist, maybe they are seeing a problem that you aren't? Part of their state is too dangerous to enter? Is this not something we should be worried about?
Arizona cannot secure the border on their own. They have asked for the governments help time and time again. They resorted to this law because the government is just ignoring the problem. The people of Arizona overwhelmingly support that law. Have you ever even attempted to ask yourself why? Besides assuming they are dumb, or racist, maybe they are seeing a problem that you aren't? Part of their state is too dangerous to enter? Is this not something we should be worried about?
[quote name='depascal22']No. It's like bitching about the oil without doing anything about the hole.[/QUOTE]
....So you are saying we are bitching about illegal immigrants but we are not suggesting to do anything about the border (the hole)....or is there some other hole you think they are coming in from?
and did you just compare illegal immigrants to leaked oil that should be contained in mexico (the bottom of the ocean)? racist!
....So you are saying we are bitching about illegal immigrants but we are not suggesting to do anything about the border (the hole)....or is there some other hole you think they are coming in from?
and did you just compare illegal immigrants to leaked oil that should be contained in mexico (the bottom of the ocean)? racist!
[quote name='IRHari']When I first made that analogy that was the FIRST thing I was worried about![/QUOTE]
I am still wondering how we aren't trying to fix the hole. The border is the hole, that is what we want to secure, so unless you think there is a different hole?
I am still wondering how we aren't trying to fix the hole. The border is the hole, that is what we want to secure, so unless you think there is a different hole?
No no, the analogy I made was that the AZ bill doesn't address the border. It addresses illegal immigrants after they get in this country.
I compared it to a real life situation, where we're trying to get rid of the oil without doing anything about the hole. I'm NOT saying illegal immigrants are like oil though. Only a racist would do that.
I compared it to a real life situation, where we're trying to get rid of the oil without doing anything about the hole. I'm NOT saying illegal immigrants are like oil though. Only a racist would do that.
Capitalizt
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[quote name='Knoell']We should be for the most part out of Iraq very soon, wouldn't money from that be more than enough to adequately secure the border?[/QUOTE]
1/20th that amount should do the job.
1/20th that amount should do the job.
[quote name='Capitalizt']1/20th that amount should do the job.[/QUOTE]
Link to where you came to this conclusion?
Nevermind, I misread I thought you said 1/20th that amount wouldn't do the job. Im still wondering how much money the left thinks we will have to "unnecessarily" spend to secure our own border.
Link to where you came to this conclusion?
Nevermind, I misread I thought you said 1/20th that amount wouldn't do the job. Im still wondering how much money the left thinks we will have to "unnecessarily" spend to secure our own border.
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fullmetalfan720
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So....you mad about:
1) People hating us?
2) The dam not getting blown up?
3) US enforcement reporting on it?
4) That somehow, all of this is solely Obama's doing?
Why not get mad at an antiquated taxes-sapping continuous drug war that's been absolutely ineffective in combating this entire thing, and despite being 100% flaccid, will keep this happening because people are so scared of a tiny weed rather that's less threatening than prescription drugs or alcohol?
Would that make so much sense that you'd have to realize everything that's going on is a baseless attack at an administration as a result of kneejerk reactionary tantrum throwing, considering that this exact situation has been going on for decades, and NO ONE has yet to offer a solution?
Or do you just want to keep armchair quarterbacking from youring computer rather than getting off your ass and sacking up to join the Border Patrol and/or a military outfit to uphold something you want to safely bitch about in your nice home?
1) People hating us?
2) The dam not getting blown up?
3) US enforcement reporting on it?
4) That somehow, all of this is solely Obama's doing?
Why not get mad at an antiquated taxes-sapping continuous drug war that's been absolutely ineffective in combating this entire thing, and despite being 100% flaccid, will keep this happening because people are so scared of a tiny weed rather that's less threatening than prescription drugs or alcohol?
Would that make so much sense that you'd have to realize everything that's going on is a baseless attack at an administration as a result of kneejerk reactionary tantrum throwing, considering that this exact situation has been going on for decades, and NO ONE has yet to offer a solution?
Or do you just want to keep armchair quarterbacking from your
ing computer rather than getting off your ass and sacking up to join the Border Patrol and/or a military outfit to uphold something you want to safely bitch about in your nice home?
fullmetalfan720
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[quote name='Strell']So....you mad about:
1) People hating us?
2) The dam not getting blown up?
3) US enforcement reporting on it?
4) That somehow, all of this is solely Obama's doing?
Why not get mad at an antiquated taxes-sapping continuous drug war that's been absolutely ineffective in combating this entire thing, and despite being 100% flaccid, will keep this happening because people are so scared of a tiny weed rather that's less threatening than prescription drugs or alcohol?
Would that make so much sense that you'd have to realize everything that's going on is a baseless attack at an administration as a result of kneejerk reactionary tantrum throwing, considering that this exact situation has been going on for decades, and NO ONE has yet to offer a solution?
Or do you just want to keep armchair quarterbacking from youring computer rather than getting off your ass and sacking up to join the Border Patrol and/or a military outfit to uphold something you want to safely bitch about in your nice home?[/QUOTE]
Wow, way to jump to conclusions.
I posted this article because I came across it, and thought it was indicative of the actual national security problem that the drug cartels coming across the southern border pose, (not like the fake national security problem that certain countries in the Middle East somehow pose to us.) Mexico is basically a failed state, with corruption running rampant there, and high incidences of drug trade related violence. As such, I think it is important to do two things; decriminalize drugs here (just possession for personal usage of the harder drugs, legalization of weed), and stop the violence that is going on at the border, through the use of the National Guard and local law enforcement.
[quote name='SpazX']Would it have been necessary for them to cross the border to blow up that dam? The dam itself is on both sides of the border isn't it?[/QUOTE]
It's pretty much right on the border line.
1) People hating us?
2) The dam not getting blown up?
3) US enforcement reporting on it?
4) That somehow, all of this is solely Obama's doing?
Why not get mad at an antiquated taxes-sapping continuous drug war that's been absolutely ineffective in combating this entire thing, and despite being 100% flaccid, will keep this happening because people are so scared of a tiny weed rather that's less threatening than prescription drugs or alcohol?
Would that make so much sense that you'd have to realize everything that's going on is a baseless attack at an administration as a result of kneejerk reactionary tantrum throwing, considering that this exact situation has been going on for decades, and NO ONE has yet to offer a solution?
Or do you just want to keep armchair quarterbacking from your
ing computer rather than getting off your ass and sacking up to join the Border Patrol and/or a military outfit to uphold something you want to safely bitch about in your nice home?[/QUOTE]Wow, way to jump to conclusions.
I posted this article because I came across it, and thought it was indicative of the actual national security problem that the drug cartels coming across the southern border pose, (not like the fake national security problem that certain countries in the Middle East somehow pose to us.) Mexico is basically a failed state, with corruption running rampant there, and high incidences of drug trade related violence. As such, I think it is important to do two things; decriminalize drugs here (just possession for personal usage of the harder drugs, legalization of weed), and stop the violence that is going on at the border, through the use of the National Guard and local law enforcement.
[quote name='SpazX']Would it have been necessary for them to cross the border to blow up that dam? The dam itself is on both sides of the border isn't it?[/QUOTE]
It's pretty much right on the border line.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Knoell']I didn't expect a response. How is securing the border at all a bad thing besides the terrible excuse that we would never secure it completely?[/QUOTE]
Post #896 came before Post #920.
Post #896 came before Post #920.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Knoell']So we should but we cannot pay for it?[/QUOTE]
No, the exercise is to figure what you would sacrifice to pay for it.
I put the stipulation of you can't choose expenses you would normally want to cut.
It would be nice to point out how securing the border would be more important than whatever you are sacrificing, too.
No, the exercise is to figure what you would sacrifice to pay for it.
I put the stipulation of you can't choose expenses you would normally want to cut.
It would be nice to point out how securing the border would be more important than whatever you are sacrificing, too.
depascal22
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So it's a good idea to build a huge fence and station a huge number of troops on a border that will never be secure?
You're the same guys that bitch all day that health care reform will just cost alot of money and never solve the problem. Now it's perfectly OK to burn money in the desert to stop poor dudes looking for a better life?
Let's face it. The real criminals with the sniper rifles, RPGs, assault rifles, and what not are flying over the border or just blasting away at weekend warriors. Try to realize that the National Guard isn't equipped to fight mercenaries that fight for cold hard cash.
You're the same guys that bitch all day that health care reform will just cost alot of money and never solve the problem. Now it's perfectly OK to burn money in the desert to stop poor dudes looking for a better life?
Let's face it. The real criminals with the sniper rifles, RPGs, assault rifles, and what not are flying over the border or just blasting away at weekend warriors. Try to realize that the National Guard isn't equipped to fight mercenaries that fight for cold hard cash.
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[quote name='depascal22']So it's a good idea to build a huge fence and station a huge number of troops on a border that will never be secure?
You're the same guys that bitch all day that health care reform will just cost alot of money and never solve the problem. Now it's perfectly OK to burn money in the desert to stop poor dudes looking for a better life?
Let's face it. The real criminals with the sniper rifles, RPGs, assault rifles, and what not are flying over the border or just blasting away at weekend warriors. Try to realize that the National Gaurd isn't equipped to fight mercenaries that fight for cold hard cash.[/QUOTE]
Securing the border with the military won't cut down on the rampant people/drug smuggling? You guys have to be more clear. Is there a problem down there or isnt there? And do you want to clean it up or keep the status quo?
Stop undercutting the solution with vague responses like "it wouldnt be secure anyway", "it would cost too much" and my new favorite "our guys would be lambs to the slaughter" and acknowledge whether there is, or isn't a problem down there, and offer solutions not excuses.
You're the same guys that bitch all day that health care reform will just cost alot of money and never solve the problem. Now it's perfectly OK to burn money in the desert to stop poor dudes looking for a better life?
Let's face it. The real criminals with the sniper rifles, RPGs, assault rifles, and what not are flying over the border or just blasting away at weekend warriors. Try to realize that the National Gaurd isn't equipped to fight mercenaries that fight for cold hard cash.[/QUOTE]
Securing the border with the military won't cut down on the rampant people/drug smuggling? You guys have to be more clear. Is there a problem down there or isnt there? And do you want to clean it up or keep the status quo?
Stop undercutting the solution with vague responses like "it wouldnt be secure anyway", "it would cost too much" and my new favorite "our guys would be lambs to the slaughter" and acknowledge whether there is, or isn't a problem down there, and offer solutions not excuses.
depascal22
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You want a solution?
1. Legalize marijuana. Hit the cartels where it really hurts. In the wallet.
2. Streamline the immigration process. This will put more people into the system and allow more taxes to be collected. It will also remove the biggest excuse for illegals that the system is built against them.
3. Prosecute business that hire illegals to the fullest extent of the law. Illegals can't hire themselves. We wouldn't have millions of people here if they were just mowing lawns and watching kids.
Unfortunately, not one of these proposals demonize Mexicans and/or coddle businesses so conservatives will NEVER get behind them.
We're not saying that there isn't a problem. We're saying there is a problem when you lump people that just want to work 3 jobs for under minimum wage with cold blooded drug runners. They're not the same.
Once you realize that every illegal immigrant isn't some hardened thug from Mexico, the sooner we can sit down and actually debate this issue.
1. Legalize marijuana. Hit the cartels where it really hurts. In the wallet.
2. Streamline the immigration process. This will put more people into the system and allow more taxes to be collected. It will also remove the biggest excuse for illegals that the system is built against them.
3. Prosecute business that hire illegals to the fullest extent of the law. Illegals can't hire themselves. We wouldn't have millions of people here if they were just mowing lawns and watching kids.
Unfortunately, not one of these proposals demonize Mexicans and/or coddle businesses so conservatives will NEVER get behind them.
We're not saying that there isn't a problem. We're saying there is a problem when you lump people that just want to work 3 jobs for under minimum wage with cold blooded drug runners. They're not the same.
Once you realize that every illegal immigrant isn't some hardened thug from Mexico, the sooner we can sit down and actually debate this issue.
[quote name='depascal22']1. Legalize marijuana. Hit the cartels where it really hurts. In the wallet. [/quote]
Agree 100%. But don't stop at marijuana.
This would help with the illegal immigration issues, but isn't going to help with the "Mexican Drug Lords shootin' our cops" issue.
You can't just prosecute businesses - you need to prosecute anyone who hires someone ineligible to work. This means if I go pick up five guys at the Home Depot to paint my house and put this fence up, I need to be able to be prosecuted as well.
Agree 100%. But don't stop at marijuana.
This would help with the illegal immigration issues, but isn't going to help with the "Mexican Drug Lords shootin' our cops" issue.
You can't just prosecute businesses - you need to prosecute anyone who hires someone ineligible to work. This means if I go pick up five guys at the Home Depot to paint my house and put this fence up, I need to be able to be prosecuted as well.
Marijuana is a whole different discussion, but the cartels don't only smuggle that drug, and legalizing marijuana would open the door to millions of people using it without concern for the law in which a certain percentage of those millions would escalate to other drugs which would put MORE money into the cartels pockets. Also you didnt say this but the excuse that alcohal and tobacco are so much worse than marijuana is no excuse to legalize it. Last time I checked you guys wanted to penalize the bad behavior of using alcohal and tobacco through huge excessive tax increases but now you want to legalize a somewhat not as bad drug as a means to rake in more tax dollars? Also before you start saying so many people use it anyway just think how many more people will experiment with it and use it once it is legal and the fear of the law wont concern them.
What do you mean by streamline the immigration system? We let the most legal immigrants into this country than ANY other country, it is not like we closed the doors to legal immigration. If you just want to give amnesty to the ones already here, fine but secure the border first so that the same problem doesn't occur in the next 20 years. Don't you think securing the border with the military will interfere with smuggling activities as well as illegals running the border? Im still not seeing a down side to securing the border, at least a reasonable one anyway.
We cannot prosecute businesses that hire illegals, you know why? because we would be putting millions out of work. Now who is the one who is being so evil wanting the poor illegals who just want to have a better life to get the hell out one way or another. How would they work then? Give them amnesty then so they can get legal jobs? Sure, once we secure the border so we aren't a beacon to any illegals that think they may get packed in to the border. When amnesty was being discussed back around like 5 years ago, attempts to run the border increased like 90% at particular locations.
Secure the border so the illegal immigrants can be given a path to citizenship and smuggling will be more difficult, and then start penalizing businesses that hire illegals, to give illegals an incentive to come forward for amnesty.
What do you mean by streamline the immigration system? We let the most legal immigrants into this country than ANY other country, it is not like we closed the doors to legal immigration. If you just want to give amnesty to the ones already here, fine but secure the border first so that the same problem doesn't occur in the next 20 years. Don't you think securing the border with the military will interfere with smuggling activities as well as illegals running the border? Im still not seeing a down side to securing the border, at least a reasonable one anyway.
We cannot prosecute businesses that hire illegals, you know why? because we would be putting millions out of work. Now who is the one who is being so evil wanting the poor illegals who just want to have a better life to get the hell out one way or another. How would they work then? Give them amnesty then so they can get legal jobs? Sure, once we secure the border so we aren't a beacon to any illegals that think they may get packed in to the border. When amnesty was being discussed back around like 5 years ago, attempts to run the border increased like 90% at particular locations.
Secure the border so the illegal immigrants can be given a path to citizenship and smuggling will be more difficult, and then start penalizing businesses that hire illegals, to give illegals an incentive to come forward for amnesty.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']No, the exercise is to figure what you would sacrifice to pay for it.
I put the stipulation of you can't choose expenses you would normally want to cut.
It would be nice to point out how securing the border would be more important than whatever you are sacrificing, too.[/QUOTE]
Heres a start, lets stop subsidizing golf carts.
I put the stipulation of you can't choose expenses you would normally want to cut.
It would be nice to point out how securing the border would be more important than whatever you are sacrificing, too.[/QUOTE]
Heres a start, lets stop subsidizing golf carts.
thrustbucket
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Open borders with welcome signs. Amnesty for anyone all the time.
I am convinced that for many on the left, that's the only "compromise" they will accept.
I am convinced that for many on the left, that's the only "compromise" they will accept.
depascal22
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Open borders with welcome signs. Amnesty for anyone all the time.
I am convinced that for many on the left, that's the only "compromise" they will accept.[/QUOTE]
And you're a retard.
I think it's funny that every one of the border states except for New Mexico has been controlled by Republican governors and they haven't done a damn thing to stop this problem. I've lived in border states for most of my life and it's funny that people that don't live near the border are the most concerned about illegals.
As for solutions, do conservatives have anything except for the ineffectual wall? Please give us something other than immigrants are the devil and should be rounded up like vermin.
Also, why does everyone assume that marijuana use automatically leads to harder drugs? I know many people that are perfectly happy with marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco. I think cartels would lose far more money in marijuana sales than they would gain in heroin or cocaine sales. I guess it's easy to demonize things you have no idea about. Or maybe you heard of a guy that knows a guy that's strung out on drugs. Rumor is he smoked grass once.
And wanting to legalize it doesn't mean we can't tax the shit out of it. I support heavy taxes on legal marijuana. It's a win win. People don't have to buy off the street and the government can regulate and profit from the trade that goes on anyway.
I am convinced that for many on the left, that's the only "compromise" they will accept.[/QUOTE]
And you're a retard.
I think it's funny that every one of the border states except for New Mexico has been controlled by Republican governors and they haven't done a damn thing to stop this problem. I've lived in border states for most of my life and it's funny that people that don't live near the border are the most concerned about illegals.
As for solutions, do conservatives have anything except for the ineffectual wall? Please give us something other than immigrants are the devil and should be rounded up like vermin.
Also, why does everyone assume that marijuana use automatically leads to harder drugs? I know many people that are perfectly happy with marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco. I think cartels would lose far more money in marijuana sales than they would gain in heroin or cocaine sales. I guess it's easy to demonize things you have no idea about. Or maybe you heard of a guy that knows a guy that's strung out on drugs. Rumor is he smoked grass once.
And wanting to legalize it doesn't mean we can't tax the shit out of it. I support heavy taxes on legal marijuana. It's a win win. People don't have to buy off the street and the government can regulate and profit from the trade that goes on anyway.
bread's done