CAGcast #211: Very Controversial

I can see big box stores selling download codes/cards for full games rather than disks. The down side to this would be mostly for the customers where you go to the store to get a game and you can't play it as soon as you get home you'll have to download it. That could be a reason that things won't go to a digital format anytime soon.
 
Wombat - I was taken back when I heard you mention the WTF podcast. I have been a long time listener to Marc Maron as well as CAG and glad to see there are others like me.
 
[quote name='bickle']*BZZZZT* Wrong. CD's.[/QUOTE]

Sure, just link me to the Ipod that plays CDs...

And if you say people ripped CDs to make MP3s, you didn't read any of my post.
 
[quote name='Z_meista']Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA. Besides, isn't it easier to just buy the game at the store, pop the game in your console and play?[/QUOTE]

Your argument was that highspeed internet access is playing a part in why more games aren't on demand or why digital distribution isn't more popular. The graph I posted shows otherwise, and that America is by no means the standard for highspeed internet. Cheapy can vouch for the lightning like speed of Japan's internet access; he's talked before about his downloads taking minutes for huge ass demos and what not.

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.

And, no. I do not think going to the store and having to physically put a disc in and out of a console is easier than just sitting in your easy chair, powering up the console, and purchasing the game, and waiting for a download while I make a sandwich or run some errands. Then for the future all I have to do is take a seat, fire up my console with the controller and pick from a list, no disc swapping required! This of course is splitting hairs, as I have no problem with going to the store to buy games or swapping stuff out of the disc tray, but it's certainly not easier.

Keep in mind though, that current console digital distribution is absolute garbage and no one should buy an xbox game or PS title digitally if there is a physical avenue for which to buy.
 
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[quote name='RichMeisterMan']I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.[/QUOTE]

Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?

Money is what matters, and having games on shelves, in front of people's faces, is better than locking them away on a proprietary console. Not to mention the benefit it has to actually selling consoles. Nobody buys an Xbox 360 to have an Xbox 360, they buy it to play Halo. If you couldn't see Halo until AFTER you bought the Xbox (or suddenly became an avid gamer on CAG), you'd never even care to touch a 360.

Edit: If you'd like to test this, ask any casual you know what their favorite game from the OnLive catalogue is.
 
Screw Pachter, lets hear it for Wombat the business analyst!!!!!

Good discussion on the used game market. If you guys (or anyone in the community) could find a breakdown on revenue flow comparing purchasing a new game vs. a used game or even digital distribution, I think that would make for a great episode.

I've also asked myself where does my dollar finally split when buying a game online vs. large box store vs. a used game from wherever.. google please?
 
Unless you're getting the Wave Radio system (the alarm clock) which is actually good, avoid the tiny Bose cube speakers. They really don't sound good in most homes. Bose requires the displays at BestBuy and the like to have their stuff separate from any other speakers, so you can't do a direct comparison. Plus they put it in that cagey thing with the rear speakers 18 inches from your head, so of course they sound good. I had these for a while and was unimpressed. Plus you can't use your own speaker wire, just the crappy Bose branded wire, and the subwoofer on the Bose Home Theater systems is the size of a mid-tower PC case.

If you're going the Sound Bar route, the Yamaha is about as good as you can get, but the ones around the $800-1000 mark are pretty good too (that's you, Ship).

I would just get some nice 5.1 speakers (Mirage, Harman Kardon, or Klipsch) and a decent 12" Sub. Most 5.1 speakers are pretty damned small now, and you just mount them on the wall above where little humans can knock them over. Check out Vanns.com (or Crutchfield.com) they have really good selection and seem to know what they're talking about, then of course, buy them at Amazon.
 
Shipwreck - forget that Bose receiver... if you're looking for a slim receiver that is actually decent, I highly doubt there's anything you'll find that could beat the Marantz slim receiver's for the price.

http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-NR1501-Slim-Theater-Receiver/dp/B002DUCO54

As far as speakers, even Klipsch uses shitty components in their mid-range stuff.

I don't really follow speakers you can buy off the shelf, I just know that you can build speakers that sound like $1k for around $200 worth of parts. And that's why I could never justify or recommend buying a speaker off the shelf.


Also... ringtone... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61NVdQw0TDU
 
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Reading the Penny Arcade article you were discussing, (which it sounds like maybe not all of you had read? http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/) I don't see them having judged anyone for buying used games. Tycho simply agreed with THQ (as did the three of you, I think) that it's okay for developers to use things like single use DLC codes to encourage people to buy their games new. The comparison of used game buyers to pirates wasn't a moral comparison, it was about the technical definition of the relationship between a used game purchaser and the developer. Sure, someone who buys used games probably buys other games new, and maybe buys more games than they would if not for used games (note all of that also may apply to pirates); but because there is no transaction between them and the developer for that game, developers are free to design in favor of people who buy their games new.

I don't disagree with many of your points about the used games industry, but it sounded to me like you also agreed with everything Tycho said before you told him to go fuck himself (which I understand was at least mostly a joke). As consumers, we are entitled to buy games however makes the most sense for us, and it's not our responsibility to make sure that developers make money for their games. At the same time, as long as we haven't given our money to a developer for a game, they don't have any obligation to care about whether we get what we want out of the game if we buy it used. There might be good reasons from a practical perspective for consumers to care about supporting developers or for developers to care about people who buy their games used, but I wouldn't condemn anyone for declining to care about the other.

Listening to your comments about the XBox Live price hike, I agree--it's annoying, and was poorly executed, but meh, it's $10, oh well. I was thinking, however, if there's not another reason behind this seemingly poorly-timed announcement: notice of an impending price increase means lots of us are going out and spending $30-50 on additional XBox Live subscriptions now when we otherwise might not spend that money for a year or so. In the short term, that money is all profit for Microsoft, particularly for those of us whose subscriptions weren't set to expire for months. Maybe as we're approaching the end of the year, MSFT was just looking for some extra cash in their financial reports? Maybe not, since they're probably on a fiscal year system instead of calendar year, and September sees the release of a game with Halo in its title, but you never know, I guess.
 
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[quote name='mrlogical']As consumers, we are entitled to buy games however makes the most sense for us, and it's not our responsibility to make sure that developers make money for their games. At the same time, as long as we haven't given our money to a developer for a game, they don't have any obligation to care about whether we get what we want out of the game if we buy it used. There might be good reasons from a practical perspective for consumers to care about supporting developers or for developers to care about people who buy their games used, but I wouldn't condemn anyone for declining to care about the other.[/QUOTE]

The problem I have is that it's a strong arm tactic. THQ didn't develop a new game mode or a new business model, they just said, "fuck it, if you're not paying us, we're taking our ball and going home." So as a customer, who has only ever purchased ONE THQ game used, I feel unsatisfied.

I don't like the idea that a company will just come along and say, "Hey, we're not making as much money as we used to, so instead of changing anything, we're just going to figure out how to punish this other market that didn't pay us." That attitude can be more detrimental to this industry than used games if it isn't checked. The gaming industry already had a "to hell with the customer, profit, profit, profit" mentality once, and it crashed the entire thing.

However, I can't form a winning argument here. Nobody seems to feel like publishers are the least bit responsible for their business models. It's not THQ's fault if they're not making a ton of money, it's the used games market, it's piracy, it's people waiting for sales. It's always something else.

Maybe if THQ didn't publish Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?, Baby Pals, American Girl, Alex Rider, Bratz 4 Real, Bratz: Girlz Really Rock, Bratz: Super Babyz, and countless Nickelodeon/Pixar licensed games, they'd have some extra scratch to throw around.

I mean seriously, you can count THQ's notable IPs on one hand, but it's the used games industry's fault if they don't make enough money?

Finally, I bought Darksiders new, I was supposed to get Red Faction for free, but because the NEW game sat on the shelf too long, the code didn't work. So I bought Red Faction used.

(and again, I'm sorry for the rant.)

Edit: And can we all agree that the publisher probably doesn't care if you get what you want out of a game even if you do pay them?
 
[quote name='Ultramontane']Screw Pachter, lets hear it for Wombat the business analyst!!!!!

Good discussion on the used game market. If you guys (or anyone in the community) could find a breakdown on revenue flow comparing purchasing a new game vs. a used game or even digital distribution, I think that would make for a great episode.

I've also asked myself where does my dollar finally split when buying a game online vs. large box store vs. a used game from wherever.. google please?[/QUOTE]

Hey man, Love your avatar pic. That's from Carnivale right? Love that show!
 
[quote name='RichMeisterMan']Your argument was that highspeed internet access is playing a part in why more games aren't on demand or why digital distribution isn't more popular. The graph I posted shows otherwise, and that America is by no means the standard for highspeed internet. Cheapy can vouch for the lightning like speed of Japan's internet access; he's talked before about his downloads taking minutes for huge ass demos and what not.

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.

And, no. I do not think going to the store and having to physically put a disc in and out of a console is easier than just sitting in your easy chair, powering up the console, and purchasing the game, and waiting for a download while I make a sandwich or run some errands. Then for the future all I have to do is take a seat, fire up my console with the controller and pick from a list, no disc swapping required! This of course is splitting hairs, as I have no problem with going to the store to buy games or swapping stuff out of the disc tray, but it's certainly not easier.[/QUOTE]

High speed internet access is just one of the many factors why digital distribution is not popular yet. As some have stated earlier, it also comes down to personal preference. You also said that our high speed internet is not up to standard. This adds frustration to consumers. Let's say a new game is released. How long are you gong to wait for your next Halo, Mass Effect, or Call of Duty to download on your console? Wouldn't it be easier to buy the game on a disc and play it when you get home? You can also buy said games when you're running your errands (e.g. grocery).

Even the most avid of gamers start out as casual gamers. That's how Nintendo is making money.
 
Thanks Cheapy for reading my CAGbag question on this podcast. Knowing that a mere mortal like me can contribute to the show in some way however small makes me glad to be a listener of your show.

And Shipwreck I'm very much liking your new Twitter war monger persona, look forward to the next battle of words.
 
[quote name='Z_meista']High speed internet access is just one of the many factors why digital distribution is not popular yet. As some have stated earlier, it also comes down to personal preference. You also said that our high speed internet is not up to standard. This adds frustration to consumers. Let's say a new game is released. How long are you gong to wait for your next Halo, Mass Effect, or Call of Duty to download on your console? Wouldn't it be easier to buy the game on a disc and play it when you get home? You can also buy said games when you're running your errands (e.g. grocery).

Even the most avid of gamers start out as casual gamers. That's how Nintendo is making money.[/QUOTE]
Services could offer a preinstall. Like on steam you can install a game days sometimes even a week or more before it's released so as soon as it's unlocked you can play!

[quote name='Broken Cage']Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?

Money is what matters, and having games on shelves, in front of people's faces, is better than locking them away on a proprietary console. Not to mention the benefit it has to actually selling consoles. Nobody buys an Xbox 360 to have an Xbox 360, they buy it to play Halo. If you couldn't see Halo until AFTER you bought the Xbox (or suddenly became an avid gamer on CAG), you'd never even care to touch a 360.

Edit: If you'd like to test this, ask any casual you know what their favorite game from the OnLive catalogue is.[/QUOTE]

Cool story, bro!

My point was that digital distribution's lack of popularity isn't due to a lack of high speed internet around the world. So I don't know why you are taking a sentence out of my entire post, blowing it up into an issue and stating the obvious.
 
[quote name='RichMeisterMan']Cool story, bro!

My point was that digital distribution's lack of popularity isn't due to a lack of high speed internet around the world. So I don't know why you are taking a sentence out of my entire post, blowing it up into an issue and stating the obvious.[/QUOTE]


He opens with douchey internet memes! I can tell this is going to go downhill quickly.

Z_Meista said,

Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA.
Click to expand...

You responded,

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.
Click to expand...

and I responded,

Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?
Click to expand...

If your comment meant nothing, and shouldn't have been addressed, why did you even make it? Then again, judging from your "Cool Story, Bro!" you might just really enjoy saying a bunch of meaningless shit.

You commented about avid gamers and their internet connections in the context of your post responding to Z saying "not everyone has high speed internet", don't try to turn around and say "No no! I wasn't talking about that! I meant this!" just because it wasn't the entirety of your post.


Edit: And I'm having a total sense of deja vu. Have we had this argument before?
 
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It was a throw away sentence! You're letting too much ride on it. I'm sure even people that have just a wii and a copy carnival games probably have high speed internet.

My point remains the same. A lack of high speed internet is not the reason why publishers aren't more into digital distribution. I used the word avid, and I shouldn't have because really what I meant to say is that anyone that is hip enough to have any kind of current gen console has probably gone beyond booping and beeping their way to the internet.

As far as dejavu goes, I have talked about digital distribution in other cagcast show threads and usually it leads to disagreements and quarrels because digital distribution is a love or hate kind of thing; there is no in between. However, right now I am not talking about whether or not it's awesome or gay. Just that a lack of broadband is not a factor in it not being the cool kid at school.

Edit: Let's quit saying the word "avid". We used it too much; it's the kind of word we can just keep throwin' around.
 
[quote name='RichMeisterMan']It was a throw away sentence! You're letting too much ride on it. I'm sure even people that have just a wii and a copy carnival games probably have high speed internet.

My point remains the same. A lack of high speed internet is not the reason why publishers aren't more into digital distribution. I used the word avid, and I shouldn't have because really what I meant to say is that anyone that is hip enough to have any kind of current gen console has probably gone beyond booping and beeping their way to the internet.

As far as dejavu goes, I have talked about digital distribution in other cagcast show threads and usually it leads to disagreements and quarrels because digital distribution is a love or hate kind of thing; there is no in between. However, right now I am not talking about whether or not it's awesome or gay. Just that a lack of broadband is not a factor in it not being the cool kid at school.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough.

I'll save the rest for when we are arguing the merits of digital distribution.
 
Although I visit this site often, I rarely leave any comments; I do want to take this time to say that I really enjoy having Shipwreck on the show. The chemistry between Cheapy and Wombat has always been great, but since Ship has been on the show, I think you guys have really taken off with the quality of the discussions and topics.

I think everyone has their specific spots where they look at game reviews, CAG has recently become a big one for me that I check out on the main page.

Keep it up guys.
 
Never posted in here before. I love the show and look forward to listening to it in my boring warehouse full of hair care products! As far as your talk about the Medal Of Honor controversy overy playing as the towel heads. I see why people have an issue with it, and I think the difference comes down to time. Nazis were years and years ago. Most WW 2 vets aren't even alive anymore. The Taliban thing is not only recent but ongoing. It's a sore subject that hasn't even had time to rest yet as it is still going on. I think that it's in bad taste for right now, but will be acceptable in the future just like nazis and veotcong have become.
 
Some issues here, first on GTA4. CheapyD, don't you know what cheats are fucking for? They're to help you have more fun. You could've used them 2 years ago to let you finish the game already.

The whole fun of GTA4 is fighting cops and fleeing from cops in an amazingly built city. Not that hard to get it.

Also, Shipwreck is so fucking blatant pro-Microsoft all the time it's just getting annoying. So you're saying Sony is at fault for Xbox Live being 60?
Xbox Live was a rip-off at 50 bucks. You got shitty voice chat, P2P MP, invites, in-game chat and like 3 websites for 50 a year.
Now it's even more of a rip-off and all you do is defend it. They touted Netflix as a feature! OH BOY, I GET TO PAY TO PAY TO WATCH NETFLIX!

I think little Shippy thinks hes funny for trying to be controversial like Wombat.

Oh and by the way, stop self-censoring yourself by saying the "N word" instead of the real one. It's your podcast and free speech should not be affected by some panzys.

In reference to this digital vs retail fight going on in this thread, retail always wins. Retail always provides better prices, better value, and full control over your product.
Plus, no one wants to get a freaking download code as a gift.
 
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Bose is a bit of a joke. So SOOOO much better stuff in the same price range. If you hook up a link as to WHAT you were looking at... I can get you an alternate offer.

Also realize that the 4000 model is a virtual 4 speaker system. 4100 has the subwoofer included. And 5/100 has the center speaker involved.
 
[quote name='mik']We just finished our basement and I had been investigating surround systems when I became quite enamored of soundbars. Those Yamaha models you mentioned are really nice, Cheapy. I think you'd be more than pleased with one of those. I decided on an even smaller model, because my room is just not all that big. I got the Sony HTCT 150, which is
 
So Bose is like Apple?

UPDATE: Lol at blacksanta87. I didn't read the last post before I posted. Unintentional, but very funny anyways. Also somewhat true.
 
[quote name='bombatomba']So Bose is like Apple?[/QUOTE]

haha You sure are right, bose is EXACTLY like apple. That's how they sucker people into buying their elegant crap for outrageous prices. 3 grand for a 5.1 system with satalite speakers??? No BLU ray??? Im insulted just looking at that price tag. It's like buying a $90 dollar pair of jeans, at the end of the day you're an idiot. (but hey, w/e it's your money.)
 
The thing that bugs me about Metroid: Other M is that the story is so cheesy and full of odd Japanese touches. I didn't need Samus to all of a sudden start having internal monologues to explain things I didn't really care about in great detail. She was a teenage girl in the Galactic Federation (or whatever it's called) that played the rebellious teen role before leaving to make it big on her own to show all of the people that doubted her abilities. Then having her abilities/upgrades now being tied to the story so that her former commander has to approve their use rather than just finding them the normal way is an arbitrary explanation for a mechanic that didn't need it.

I'll blow Wombat's mind right now and say that I do not have an HDTV while having owned an Xbox 360 and PS3 for about three years now. I do have a monitor I use for whenever I want to play games in HD, but SD is fine for most games. A lot of downloadable games even offer the ability to alter the screen size to better fit your HD or SD display, so developers need to better adapt their HUD and interfaces for multiple resolutions. I'll probably get an HDTV sometime this fall to get rid of this huge SDTV once and for all and to save some space in my set-up.

My biggest issue with the XBL price increase is that a lot of the features/apps they promote as a big part of the service require a separate subscription (Netflix, Hulu Plus, and some parts of last.fm) or aren't available depending on the ISP in the US (ESPN). If you're going to increase the cost, which will also increase the price of the sales, I expect more useful features that are useful to everyone with no added costs to even use them. I'd also like the dashboard to be overhauled and trimmed of the fat (long load times and bloated, random layout) so it feels like I'm paying for my experience with the system as a whole to be better because I pay for Gold. I would have liked to hear what Microsoft has in store for Xbox Live in the future to make the price increase make sense rather than being an out-of-nowhere increase that serves no purpose.

I'd get the new Xbox 360 controller if MS were offering it by itself and Amazon could sell it for $30 like the other wireless controllers they're selling right now.

Major Nelson is Microsoft's PR guy, so I don't feel bad for him whenever he has to post bad news on the official Xbox Live PR site. He's the main guy people bitch at for any bad news that Microsoft has to announce, so this is nothing new. He deals with it by ignoring them.

I don't think the Activison/Infinity Ward or the Star Wars: TFU situations are the norm for how publishers and developers deal with the bonuses/cuts for sales, as you don't hear about that stuff since that's a private thing between those companies and their people. I prefer to support developers by buying their games new whenever possible since even a little bit of my money going to them is better than nothing at all and I'd like to help the developers I like stay around to make more games.

Good show.
 
[quote name='Ultramontane']Screw Pachter, lets hear it for Wombat the business analyst!!!!![/QUOTE]

Wombat would be a much better business analyst than Pachter. Look at what he had to say about NetFlix a few years ago:

http://www.smartmoney.com/investing/stocks/whats-next-for-netflix-16905/

"Netflix is a worthless piece of crap with really nice people running it," says Michael Pachter, an analyst at Wedbush Morgan Securities in Los Angeles, who cut his target price to a merciless $3 a share and maintained the Sell rating with which he initiated coverage of the stock in September. "I don't mean that they're doing anything wrong. They have a wonderful idea, but it's not a sustainable business. I wish they would make it — they deserve to make it. But in the Internet, all the success stories tend to be multiple channels, [offer] multiple products, or have a brick-and-mortar component. At the end of the day, there's only one line of business going on at Netflix."
Click to expand...
 
I read the oh-so-controversial Other M review by G4TV's Abbie Heppe and I found it refreshing. Many wondered what Metroid would be like with more story & more character development and it sounds like Team Ninja made poor choices. I don't think you can chalk this up to fanboys disliking this flavor of Metroid (you got story in MY Metroid!). Some fundamental story mistakes were made and some terrible gameplay through plot ideas were implemented. I bought a Gamecube just so I could play Metroid Prime. I don't think I'll buy a Wii for Other M.
 
As Cheapy was discussing his Xbox Live marketing strategy, I was coming to the same conclusion: Give the customer something of low cost and high perceived value when announcing a price increase. How about a free game a month like PSN +, or maybe a discount on low selling Arcade titles? I find it amazing that MS didn't have a roundtable with the PR reps to come to this same conclusion, and maybe bring up consumer backlash concerns. I guess MS has just taken their marketplace for granted and now feels they can do whatever the hell they feel like doing because it seems to have worked for Sony all these years.

Yeah, most CAGs swear by $30 Live deals, but something tells me that at $60, these deals will never be seen again, and $49.99 now sounds like a good deal. I'm also wondering if this price increase had anything to do with the Activision/ Kotick controversy. Are the major distributors now getting a piece of this coincidentally timed price increase?
 
Just listened to both cagcasts and do not recall wich show talked about wich topics. Retail stores do not get a chance to return games for a credit, only on universal price drops. They only get to return music and movies. If retailers got to return video games we would not see Target clearancing games off up to 75% and Kmart clearancing them up to 90% off.

Also that mettacritic review for Laura Croft from the AV Club sounds like the onion newspaper. They have a section called the AV Club that reviews entertainment. If it is an Onion review it should not be on the site. That would explain why the writer said some of those comments.
 
On the subject of used games, and Penny Arcade's opinion:

It is always grating to hear Shipwreck (who I otherwise like) build an argument, on the spot, about something he knows nothing about, and then harp on it for another five minutes. He started off asking how the retail/publisher/developer split went on new game sales (which is complicated) and then decided that used games somehow still support the publisher, but not the developer, which is incorrect.

Used games sales go straight to the retailer, and neither the developer nor the publisher see a red cent. This really becomes an issue when you look at the number of used copies of new games available in the first week after release for $5 bucks less than the new game, which stay at $5 bucks under new for months to follow. Lots of people go to pick up a game in the first week of its release (and for months to follow) and think "fuck, I'll save five bucks" and buy a used copy - so that huge pile of sales at $54.99 end up staying with with the retailer, while only on the new sales do they see a cut.

People who buy the used copy for a whopping $5 savings are not putting any cash at all into the pockets of the publisher or developer; zero dollars. The retailer gets to pocket at least twice as much off of a used sale than a new sale, so they make out like bandits by paying shit small credits for used games and turning them around for nearly full retail price.

Those who get the games used, from the perspective of the publisher and developers, are no better than shoplifters or pirates. IMO, they could be seen as worse, because they are willing to pay almost then whole retail price, but not to the people who create or bankroll the creation and distribution of the game.

I think this 'project ten dollar' deterrent stuff is a fantastic response to the situation. People can go ahead and buy used games, but if they feel judged, put out, or ripped off by this kind of thing, they can go fuck themselves.
 
[quote name='Stahlbrand']On the subject of used games, and Penny Arcade's opinion:

It is always grating to hear Shipwreck (who I otherwise like) build an argument, on the spot, about something he knows nothing about, and then harp on it for another five minutes. He started off asking how the retail/publisher/developer split went on new game sales (which is complicated) and then decided that used games somehow still support the publisher, but not the developer, which is incorrect.

Used games sales go straight to the retailer, and neither the developer nor the publisher see a red cent. This really becomes an issue when you look at the number of used copies of new games available in the first week after release for $5 bucks less than the new game, which stay at $5 bucks under new for months to follow. Lots of people go to pick up a game in the first week of its release (and for months to follow) and think "fuck, I'll save five bucks" and buy a used copy - so that huge pile of sales at $54.99 end up staying with with the retailer, while only on the new sales do they see a cut.

People who buy the used copy for a whopping $5 savings are not putting any cash at all into the pockets of the publisher or developer; zero dollars. The retailer gets to pocket at least twice as much off of a used sale than a new sale, so they make out like bandits by paying shit small credits for used games and turning them around for nearly full retail price.

Those who get the games used, from the perspective of the publisher and developers, are no better than shoplifters or pirates. IMO, they could be seen as worse, because they are willing to pay almost then whole retail price, but not to the people who create or bankroll the creation and distribution of the game.

I think this 'project ten dollar' deterrent stuff is a fantastic response to the situation. People can go ahead and buy used games, but if they feel judged, put out, or ripped off by this kind of thing, they can go fuck themselves.[/QUOTE]

The simple solution to all these alleged used copies being available the week that the game releases is.... for publishers to release games that people want to keep for more than a week. Is that a difficult concept for anyone to grasp? Seems obvious to me.

It's been said a million times, but used game sales are not a unique problem.. it's a "problem" in any non-consumable goods market, and yet somehow people have been profiting for decades selling electronics, books, cars, furniture, cd's, dvd's, etc.

Punishing the consumer is never the "right" answer. Just the easy one.
 
[quote name='Stahlbrand']It is always grating to hear Shipwreck (who I otherwise like) build an argument, on the spot, about something he knows nothing about, and then harp on it for another five minutes. He started off asking how the retail/publisher/developer split went on new game sales (which is complicated) and then decided that used games somehow still support the publisher, but not the developer, which is incorrect.[/QUOTE]

I don't remember making this argument or asking that question. If I did, I certainly didn't mean that developers and publishers get a direct cut of used game sales. They can benefit from it less directly in several ways though: people buy new games because they know they can trade them in, people trade games in so they can afford new games, etc.
 
[quote name='smoger']The simple solution to all these alleged used copies being available the week that the game releases is.... for publishers to release games that people want to keep for more than a week. Is that a difficult concept for anyone to grasp? Seems obvious to me.

It's been said a million times, but used game sales are not a unique problem.. it's a "problem" in any non-consumable goods market, and yet somehow people have been profiting for decades selling electronics, books, cars, furniture, cd's, dvd's, etc.

Punishing the consumer is never the "right" answer. Just the easy one.[/QUOTE]

Those games that are on the used pegs in the first weeks are there in large part because there are people who rip disc images for use with modded systems (a whole different can of worms), and to a lesser extent because of people who have more money than sense and short attention spans, maybe, I dunno.

Used software is distinct from the other examples because (prior to efforts like 'project ten dollars') the value of a game does not degrade when it has been 'used'. The new $60 dollar copy is functionally identical to the $55 used copy. A new $20 000 car is markedly more valuable than a 5 year old used car for $5 000, even a used book is a little shittier than a new one. There is a value trade off in buying used items in pretty much any case, except for games, unless the publishers incentivize new sales, creating an aspect of the item that will degrade with use - a consumable code for bonus content or online play in this case.

If I'm opening my wallet, I'm going to think about where the money goes - to a retail store that buys used games and turns them around at a ridiculous mark-up, or to the people who created and delivered the game? My stance is that the difference of $5 bucks is worth it to see the Biowares and Harmonixes of the world get rewarded for putting such great stuff together, and yes, even to the EAs and Activisions for putting up the bankroll to get those games made, rather than reward some slightly slimy business practice of a national retail franchise.

This kind of thing does nothing to punish consumers, as far as I can see. You can buy the game new, get the unique code for bonus content or online play and apart from punching in a code one time, live like you always have, or you can buy used and have to pay an extra $10 for the bonus content or online play - the choice is still yours, maybe the extra stuff isn't worth the money or of interest to you.


@Shipwreck

Well, perhaps I've got the name wrong, might it have been Wombat? I wrote that comment right after listening to that segment while washing the dishes, so the facts were fresh in my head, but I'm kinda bad with keeping which voice goes to which name straight in my head. My apologies if I called out the wrong co-host.

That is a point about people who ride the trade-in wave, hocking their most recent game to buy the next one, but if they're going from used game to used game rather than buying new it doesn't change anything about the situation.

Honestly the thought of that just makes me sad. I've played games since I was 5 with a brand new NES, and I've bought games since I had my own money, and the idea of pawning these things, even if I don't replay some games, is just depressing. I try to avoid clutter, but pitching the physical objects around which the memories and experiences of my youth are tied just to buy the next one is something I couldn't do. Its like when you ask a baby-boomer about the LPs they used to own.
 
[quote name='Stahlbrand']Those games that are on the used pegs in the first weeks are there in large part because there are people who rip disc images for use with modded systems (a whole different can of worms), and to a lesser extent because of people who have more money than sense and short attention spans, maybe, I dunno.[/quote]

And you think this tiny niche of consumers is enough to derail the profitability of these corporations? Why do you presume these people ripping games are buying retail and selling them back instead of renting them or simply downloading them? Are we to believe that people are also doing this with PS3 games, DS games, and PSP games?

Used software is distinct from the other examples because (prior to efforts like 'project ten dollars') the value of a game does not degrade when it has been 'used'. The new $60 dollar copy is functionally identical to the $55 used copy.
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What about a cd or dvd degrades after it's been used? The "digital copy" that the movie industry wants you to think you don't have a right to create on your own?

If I'm opening my wallet, I'm going to think about where the money goes - to a retail store that buys used games and turns them around at a ridiculous mark-up, or to the people who created and delivered the game? My stance is that the difference of $5 bucks is worth it to see the Biowares and Harmonixes of the world get rewarded for putting such great stuff together, and yes, even to the EAs and Activisions for putting up the bankroll to get those games made, rather than reward some slightly slimy business practice of a national retail franchise.
Click to expand...

..and that's fine.. but it's not a concern of the average consumer. I'm not even defending Gamestop here.. their $5 discount on used titles is an insult to consumers and I tend to avoid them entirely for the most part. In fact, since the industry itself is proving that the "every game is worth $60 model" does NOT work, by use of a site like this there is absolutely no reason to buy used most of the time, even to save money.

However, I will argue adamantly the consumers RIGHT to do so if they please.

This kind of thing does nothing to punish consumers, as far as I can see. You can buy the game new, get the unique code for bonus content or online play and apart from punching in a code one time, live like you always have, or you can buy used and have to pay an extra $10 for the bonus content or online play - the choice is still yours, maybe the extra stuff isn't worth the money or of interest to you.
Click to expand...

..and what happens when i dig out my copy of Mass Effect 2 in 10 years and I can no longer complete the achievements because there is no way to download Zaaed?(just 1 example). To this day I still occasionally play games like Super Mario Bros(and SMB3), Zelda 3, etc.. and everytime i play them they are FULL experiences because they don't have to rely on servers to obtain content.

Also, there's the obvious problem of what if your console breaks or you buy a second one? I know ea links this content to an ea account so you are probably ok, but will every company jumping on this bandwagon do that? ..or will they take the easy route and tie the game to your console?

..and probably the most immediate problem is this.. once a lot of the initial batch of buyers leaves these games behind, the online servers could end up being ghost towns, and everyone who still wants to play online will have a much harder time finding matches. empty multiplayer servers could have people trading in those games even more than they do already.
 
What would you guys think if Microsoft kept gold membership at the same price but added a completely new level of membership. "Platinum" say $100/£70 which contains "new exciting features" - such as the bigger friends list, earlier access to content, exclusive DLC and so on. And say if you upgrade from gold you get a % off the price.

Do you think that would be more successful than what they're currently doing right now? Do you think many people would upgrade? Would you guys upgrade?
 
[quote name='saunderscowie']What would you guys think if Microsoft kept gold membership at the same price but added a completely new level of membership. "Platinum" say $100/£70 which contains "new exciting features" - such as the bigger friends list, earlier access to content, exclusive DLC and so on. And say if you upgrade from gold you get a % off the price.

Do you think that would be more successful than what they're currently doing right now? Do you think many people would upgrade? Would you guys upgrade?[/QUOTE]

I for one would not upgrade. What M$ offers in terms of a service for my 50 bucks is piss poor, and I used to actually defend the cost. At this point though we don't get enough. I don't feel like we are so much getting something for our 50 dollars as much as people that don't pay are having things taken away.

We get early access to a demo from time to time, some few and far between shitty discounts on games/content that you've either already bought or have zero interest in. Usually when you pay to be a member of something like this it pays for itself over time; xbox live does not do that. Everything costs money on XBL, even the shit publishers want to put out for free because M$ isn't a big fan of free.

For a year+ I have been really into PC gaming and as far as online play goes I do it on the PC now. I don't have to pay for "live" and I get dedicated servers. I play Battlefield: Bad Company 2 with more people and for less money and that's the bottom line. Games also look better. I would never renew my subscription at the new rate.

Keep in mind; I'm not lookin' to play Halo. If Halo is your cup of tea then I can understand the willingness to pay. Halo is pretty much the only game though that is worth a damn that you can't play else where.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']I don't remember making this argument or asking that question. [/QUOTE]

That's because you didn't; it was Wombat. I'm pretty sure that Wombat's point (that he never really got to because the discussion got off track) was that the publisher gets their money from a retailer not from the gamer who ultimately buys that "new" game. So by extension of the Penny Arcade logic, even the consumer of a new game is no better than a pirate, and Gamestop should just melt down all those new games rather than sell them.

Also, as you said publishers do benefit indirectly from used game sales. The most important way is that the ability to re-sell the game keeps the price of new games higher than it would be otherwise. If the ability to re-sell games magically disappeared overnight then basic economics makes it certain that the dollar amount of games sold would decrease by a corresponding amount. Which means either:

- less games sold, or
- games sell slower as more people wait for the price drop, or
- price of new games decreases
 
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[quote name='ZombieJeebus']Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. This is false. Ipod argument stands.[/QUOTE]

The Ipod really isn't a good argument for anything. As mentioned in the podcast many stores didn't sell iPods in the early days because Apple is like the Gestapo when it comes to controlling prices and gives retailers only the tiniest profit margin. In the electronics business retailers aren't use to getting grocery store price margins. Things changed because:

(a) Apple sells 100 million units a year (more than a whole lifetime of a console), and
(b) there are now lots of high profit accessories to sell

Game consoles just don't sell enough to justify the tiny retail margins unless there is the prospect of more profit from the games.
 
I've been listening to the CAGCast for about 3 years and its still the only podcast I never miss. These guys don't take themselves too seriously, yet they still share insightful commentary on everything from games to fatherhood to everyday experiences. My wife has been listening for about 2 months and she's hooked.
 
Having just finished Mafia 2 I have to agree with Cheapy's positive comments. I also think that many reviewers give a false impression about the amount of driving. I actually drove a lesser percentage of the time than in GTA4 (about 20% and it would have been more like 15% if I didn't spend time doing some optional stuff for achievements).

I think most reviewers are used to the GTA model of driving top speed, metal soundtrack blaring, without regard to other vehicles, traffic laws, and mowing down pedestrians. Then you jump out and right away start blasting 50 bad guys. If that's your standard then maybe Mafia 2, with stopping to talk to the boss or your partner before a mission, just doesn't get to the shooting fast enough for the reviewers, and that makes them think of it as a "driving game". The driving model is better than GTA, the visuals are better, the soundtrack is great, there's none of that drive 10 mins back to the mission if you fail it, and as I said to start the actual amount of driving is no greater than GTA4. So I really can't see why the driving is an issue.

If I had any criticism it would be the lack of non-story related activities. But then in GTA4 I did each activity exactly once to try them and never went back, so it's not like the standard is set high. Saint's Row is the only similar game I can think of that actually did mini games that you want to replay.
 
Cheapy, Wombat & Shipwreck:

I was a little late in finishing last week's podcast but I really wanted to bring up a point that is very relevant to the used game discussion.

The publishers seem to get incredilbly annoyed that people aren't buying their games new but in my opinion this completely overlooks the fact that one component of the price of a new game is that it will have some value once the buyer has completed it.

That is, part of the validity of a $60 price tag is the recognition in a gamer's mind that he can recoup a few of those $60 dollars back if he elects to sell or trade the game in upon completion.

The point is that while the publishers may need to sell the game for $60 in order to profit, one of the only reasons that they are able to sell it at that price is the purchaser's knowledge that he can sell it later. Without this, demand for games may only be such that people would purchase them new for $50 or even $45.

Hence the marketability of a $60 price is somewhat created by the ability to sell it used.
 
Sorry Wombat, I have to respectfully disagree with you on your outlook for "future gaming". I think, unfortunately it will go the way of digital. I'm not going into the pros and cons here.

With Steam you can purchase/download pc games from their website. xbl / psn / & wii all have games that are strictly DLC. They all have full retail versions available for download as well.
OnLive has launched and their entire catalog is digital only. Time will tell if Onlive will survive and if people will give up tangible software for the ease and convenience of digital goods.
Look at movies and music. Music being the prime example here. When was the last time you bought a cd? I went into BestBuy the other day and the shelves for cd were barren. On some racks there were cards that had instructions on how to purchase & Dl the song. It will be a long time from now, but I think that's where its headed.

The stores do not make any money on games. They barely make money on the systems. They make their money on accessories and service plans. If the games are being offered to download, people will need to get the systems and it accessories. Games would bring people into the store, but I don't think it would be a reason to force manufacturers to not digitize media. With all the ways to get stuff nowadays, B&M stores might go the way of the Dodo too! Besides, who's going to strong-arm Microsoft?

Fellow Long Islander.
Joe
 
Thanks for the mention of the lists on the show. I was JUST thinking that I wished there was a place to find some of the titles or genres you guys talked about.

My tastes in games is a mix of CheapyD's and Wombat's.

CheapyD = "lets me just have fun blowing things up!"
Wombat = "Let me have fun, and look 'purdy' doing it!"

So I'll keep an eye on your lists to see what kind of stuff you guys enjoyed and rate in the future.
 
Hey Cheapy! Love the show, just wanted to let you know that I agree with your suggestions for the mass effect series. I personally thought that all the ship upgrades were kind of pointless considering that they did nothing till the end cutscenes and where is the fun in that? I thought they should have done a gunner position scene like in the first Knights of the Old Republic. I live in Edmonton, home of Bioware and have a friend who works there and have passed along your suggestions and mine. (he works in "quality assurance" and has been there for some time, so maybe the suggestions will go somewhere... maybe) Anyway, I just wanted to send a quick post and hope you guys don't get too much crap flung your way for what I consider to be a very entertaining show.

Brian
 
Hey Cheapy-

I was the CAG who originally recommended the Yamaha Soundbridge via Twitter (my Twitter name is SpotAnime). I'm glad you were able to demo them out, they are a truly amazing piece of tech. The great thing about the Soundbridge is that it has an integrated amp, and the models you are checking out have video switching via HDMI, so you can ditch your receiver too and wall-mount this sucker.

The beam technology Yamaha employs on the Soundbridge line is the only way to go when considering a soundbar. Through the settings you set the beam location, so you can find the best places to aim on your walls. And from the pictures you've shown of your new apartment, you have a great setup for it. Having a deep room with the Soundbridge centered on the wall parallel to where the rear speakers will be is perfect. That way you can set the rear speakers behind where you are sitting, rather than right above your head. It's hard to explain in words, wish I could draw a picture.

The new models you are looking at come with a microphone and they autoconfigure based on the layout of your room. I have the first model, the YSP-1000, and had to do everything manually, but by doing so I understand it a lot better. You can configure the beams so that you can extend the front left and right, place the center so that it sounds like it's coming BEHIND the TV (yes, that's true) and when you set the rears, you measure the total distance the sound will travel, and then separately the distance from where the virtual speaker to your ears, so you can get the perfect sound.

The only thing I think are negatives are that there's not much bass, so if you want some depth to the sound you'll need a dedicated sub, but because you don't want to rumble your neighbors it might be fine for you. Also, I know the walls that face Tokyo Tower are all windows, and I don't know if you have to reflect the beam if it works off a window. But I've done things with mine like bounce the beam off the ceiling when I run out of quality wall space. The last thing is that since it has the amp built-in, once new sound technologies are introduced, you can't upgrade. My model is DD 5.1 and DTS, but it doesn't have the HD audio codecs, so I just have to downconvert to DTS or something.

Oh - one more thing. I have the Turtle Beach X4's, and the pass-through doesn't like DTS, and most likely the new audio codecs. So I just have a manual optical switch that I use, so when I'm not using the headphones I bypass the amp in the headset base.

Hope that helps. IM me or contact me at Twitter if you have any questions!
 
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