Chrisitianity (or any religion really) is a order of bullshit and chips.

I don't disagree with you about some of the mysticisms and craziness that can be associated with said religions.
But remember what I said having a moral ideology to ground you too. It doesn't have to be religion. I would just be happy if their were more skeptical Atheists in most things they do, almost forever questioning.

It seems Atheists and Christians and others have their Holy Grail always, the thing that can do no wrong. I suppose I have Lynn Samuels to idolize but I also realize she has flaws, she realizes she might see Hillary Clinton with cloudy eyes and I respect that even. To realize you're biased and acknowledge it. Could Lynn sell out and let me down so profoundly? Yes but I suspect to do that would be anathema to her being. I wish I were more like Lynn but I'm not that close to perfect.

Anyway the issue with Atheists is I think their constructs are sometimes not broad enough. I think they lock themselves into mainstream science and are sometimes not as skeptical with it. I'm not referring to Paranormal Science here either. I'm referring to natural cures and Hollistic curing in general. I realize some of them are bunk but I think the Atheist, a lot of them, cling onto traditional medical science in trust which is erroneous. I believe in diagnostic things such as X-Ray's but I notice how much there's Big Medicine now which flows into Corporate Interests instead of the healing concern.

As for science, the Atheist and the five senses thrust and camoor I believe that one day we'll be able to prove more senses. I honestly believe we have a latent sense of weak communication(can be stronger for others) that can be transmitted across great distances when someone dies or is in danger possibility. This can vary to different degrees, some might argue the death call is the loudest. Who knows what the bridge is? The Collective Unconsciousness?

edit: Can I please just be able to indent my paragraphs for CRYING out loud! X-(
 
a "believer" and a "non-believer" trying to prove to each other why the other is incorrect is an exercise in futility, didn't Maher already cover this?

It does make for good comedy though for those that have a sense of humor.
 
[quote name='xxDOYLExx']a "believer" and a "non-believer" trying to prove to each other why the other is incorrect is an exercise in futility, didn't Maher already cover this?

It does make for good comedy though for those that have a sense of humor.[/QUOTE]

If a believer thinks he/she has rational (unemotional) reasons for believing, I'm fairly sure I can prove them incorrect. ;)

Give me a logical argument that doesn't involve secondhand anecdotes or emotionalism ("personal experience") and I will point out at least one fallacy in it.
 
Some interesting posts here, not the typical pissing match I'd expected given the topic.

I don't really have anything to add. I used to be pretty anti-religion, but I've mellowed tremendously on that as I've gotten older.

I'm 100% atheist, have been for 15+ years and don't see that ever changing. I'm a man of science and will never be a man of faith (won't see me converted like Jack on Lost! :D ).

But I don't begrudge others' there beliefs anymore, nor have any desire to sway people to atheism, so I just stay out of religious debates for the most part. As long as people aren't shoving their views on me, I'm cool--and I avoid pressing my views on others. Religion/faith/spirituality should be a deeply personal matter IMO. Something people figure out on their own and discuss with others who want to discuss it.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']If a believer thinks he/she has rational (unemotional) reasons for believing, I'm fairly sure I can prove them incorrect. ;)

Give me a logical argument that doesn't involve secondhand anecdotes or emotionalism ("personal experience") and I will point out at least one fallacy in it.[/QUOTE]

thats just it. Faith is a belief in things not seen and is deeply personal. If that sounds like a fallacy to you then, you would feel too silly taking the steps to gain it.
 
I've been reading Dawkins' The God Delusion most of this week and I never really thought of it, but religion is kind of being squeezed. Religion has always been a gap filler, things not understood were attributed in some way to god. The thing is of course, we know more about the world now than we ever have, and even religious people usually believe in scientific explanations for at least simple things. Religion has fewer and fewer gaps to fill basically, it's becoming unnecessary. Some people naturally feel threatened by that, but it isn't something that can really be stopped.
 
I know a deeply religious man who is a college science professor. He has a sign in his classroom that says "god is a scientist, not a magician."
 
Even leaving science at the door, I've found it hard to even have a philosophical argument with many religious people, mostly because they won't seem to play by the rules.

Saying something like "Why would an infallible being create such flawed life?" gets a response like "it's god's plan." That isn't even a response, it's a cop out.

Or even taking into account the old gods which civilizations have worshiped throughout history, were they wrong? What happened to the gods the Greeks and Romans worshiped? What makes Christians right and Muslims wrong? I've heard few to no answers for any of those questions which really make sense. Given the subject matter I don't really see how any good answer could be given to questions like that.
 
[quote name='Clak']Or even taking into account the old gods which civilizations have worshiped throughout history, were they wrong? What happened to the gods the Greeks and Romans worshiped? What makes Christians right and Muslims wrong? I've heard few to no answers for any of those questions which really make sense. Given the subject matter I don't really see how any good answer could be given to questions like that.[/QUOTE]


A good answer can't be given because there is no reason to take one religion seriously over another. They ALL have holy books. They ALL have miracle claims. Followers of every religion since the dawn of time have had "personal experiences" with their own gods/goddesses. The truth claims of every religion conflict with each other and they simply can't all be right...but they can all be wrong.
 
with no god, we get this.

GoGodGo16.jpg
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']A good answer can't be given because there is no reason to take one religion seriously over another. They ALL have holy books. They ALL have miracle claims. Followers of every religion since the dawn of time have had "personal experiences" with their own gods/goddesses. The truth claims of every religion conflict with each other and they simply can't all be right...but they can all be wrong.[/QUOTE]

or one could be right, right?.
 
[quote name='xxDOYLExx']or one could be right, right?.[/QUOTE]

Sure..all of them are wrong..except one. None of the tens of thousands of gods throughout history ever existed..None of the other religions were the "true" religion..but you were oh-so-fortunate enough to be born in a time and place where the most prevalent religion just happened to be the "correct" one. What a coincidence. :lol:
 
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[quote name='xxDOYLExx']or one could be right, right?.[/QUOTE]

Sure..all of them are wrong..except one. None of the tens of thousands of gods throughout history ever existed..None of the other religions were the "true" religion..but you were oh-so-fortunate enough to be born in a time and place where the most prevalent religion just happened to be the "correct" one. What a coincidence. :lol:
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']A good answer can't be given because there is no reason to take one religion seriously over another. They ALL have holy books. They ALL have miracle claims. Followers of every religion since the dawn of time have had "personal experiences" with their own gods/goddesses.[/QUOTE]

No they don't.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']I don't disagree with you about some of the mysticisms and craziness that can be associated with said religions.[/QUOTE]

I don't have the slightest problem with mysticism, I dig some of it myself. It's the attempt to force a theocracy down my throat that grinds my gears.

[quote name='Sarang01']As for science, the Atheist and the five senses thrust and camoor I believe that one day we'll be able to prove more senses. I honestly believe we have a latent sense of weak communication(can be stronger for others) that can be transmitted across great distances when someone dies or is in danger possibility. This can vary to different degrees, some might argue the death call is the loudest. Who knows what the bridge is? The Collective Unconsciousness?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think that too. Not sure how useful or significant that is since we have cell phones.
 
I'm not reading all 4 pages of this afetr slogging through the first post, but I will say this: I am 100% convinced that there is some higher power and that there is an afterlife. Many experiences I have had have led me to believe so.

However, despite attending a Christian school for 9 years, I am not sure whether I believe in the Christian God. All that, "God helps those who help themselves; do unto others as you would have them do unto you" crap has never rung true in my life experiences. So if that God exists, he must take great pleasure in giving me a much watered down- but still rather trying- Job treatment.

Ideally, I'd like to believe that if a person lives his or her life well, treating others respectfully unless they have reason not to and generally being a good person, they shouldn't feel obligated to drag themselves out of bed on a set day an d time in order to listen to a sermon that most of them don't care about, and- in the case of the Catholic church- kneel down on prayer benches and repeat chants in a cult-like manner.
 
[quote name='camoor']I don't have the slightest problem with mysticism, I dig some of it myself. It's the attempt to force a theocracy down my throat that grinds my gears.



Yeah, I think that too. Not sure how useful or significant that is since we have cell phones.[/QUOTE]

We must consider the mysogyny or rather, the opportunity to oppress women. The reason women obeying their husbands and all the control measures were written in the Bible because men who ARE despicable have a unique opportunity to brainwash a lot of girls when they're going through adolescence. Most are quite emotionally vulnerable and some women are even critical of their appearance after that or even have low self esteem or both. Compare that to the average male who goes through it.
The people who wrote the Bible part with that crap in there saw that as a unique opportunity to brainwash girls that they're "weaker" because they were a part of man, created by God to serve him. We exist, male and female, to compliment the other. Anyway, it's likely a lot of those Gospels and so on were decided at the "Council Of Mycia" I believe it was called. That was where they decided the official version of the Bible.

Granted some of these actions women make are centuries old and designed to protect themselves. There was a reason why you partnered up with a man to protect yourself way back in the day. Nowadays there are Martial Arts women AND men can use to more then adequately protect themselves to take advantage of their strength.

I go on for too long almost. As for the cell phone comment that's if you're quite capable of actually communicating on a conscious level. I'll tell you though, even those signals can get somewhat scrambled, the sixth sense one. I remember not hearing from my friend for a while and was wondering what happened. At one point I suddenly felt a profound sense of sadness, I thought my friend was going to kill themself. I mean it was incredibly strong. Turned out their friend had died.
 
[quote name='camoor']I don't have the slightest problem with mysticism, I dig some of it myself. It's the attempt to force a theocracy down my throat that grinds my gears.



Yeah, I think that too. Not sure how useful or significant that is since we have cell phones.[/QUOTE]
Is he fucking serious? Dude, the X-Men aren't real, Patrick Stewart can't speak to you with his mind power.

This is the nonsense I mean, it's why I have to see these psychic friends network commercials on TV.
 
[quote name='Matt Young']I'm not reading all 4 pages of this afetr slogging through the first post, but I will say this: I am 100% convinced that there is some higher power and that there is an afterlife. Many experiences I have had have led me to believe so.

However, despite attending a Christian school for 9 years, I am not sure whether I believe in the Christian God. All that, "God helps those who help themselves; do unto others as you would have them do unto you" crap has never rung true in my life experiences. So if that God exists, he must take great pleasure in giving me a much watered down- but still rather trying- Job treatment.

Ideally, I'd like to believe that if a person lives his or her life well, treating others respectfully unless they have reason not to and generally being a good person, they shouldn't feel obligated to drag themselves out of bed on a set day an d time in order to listen to a sermon that most of them don't care about, and- in the case of the Catholic church- kneel down on prayer benches and repeat chants in a cult-like manner.[/QUOTE]
I've never understood the idea of a single christian god, because ye olde sky father seemed to undergo a bit of a conversion between the old and new testaments. I want that wrathful, vengeful, kick ass and chew bubble gum god back.
 
[quote name='punklivz']If the world believed in nothing, do you know how chaotic that would be?[/QUOTE]

Where do you get the idea that not believing in magical beings/events = "believing in nothing"?
 
[quote name='Sarang01']We must consider the mysogyny or rather, the opportunity to oppress women. The reason women obeying their husbands and all the control measures were written in the Bible because men who ARE despicable have a unique opportunity to brainwash a lot of girls when they're going through adolescence. Most are quite emotionally vulnerable and some women are even critical of their appearance after that or even have low self esteem or both. Compare that to the average male who goes through it.
The people who wrote the Bible part with that crap in there saw that as a unique opportunity to brainwash girls that they're "weaker" because they were a part of man, created by God to serve him. We exist, male and female, to compliment the other. Anyway, it's likely a lot of those Gospels and so on were decided at the "Council Of Mycia" I believe it was called. That was where they decided the official version of the Bible.

Granted some of these actions women make are centuries old and designed to protect themselves. There was a reason why you partnered up with a man to protect yourself way back in the day. Nowadays there are Martial Arts women AND men can use to more then adequately protect themselves to take advantage of their strength.

I go on for too long almost. As for the cell phone comment that's if you're quite capable of actually communicating on a conscious level. I'll tell you though, even those signals can get somewhat scrambled, the sixth sense one. I remember not hearing from my friend for a while and was wondering what happened. At one point I suddenly felt a profound sense of sadness, I thought my friend was going to kill themself. I mean it was incredibly strong. Turned out their friend had died.[/QUOTE]

Personally I believe this only becomes my business when it turns into a human rights issue. Frankly in the USA I don't believe there are many women who are forcibly oppressed by religion. Of course it is reprehensible whenever and whereever it does occur.

As for the sixth sense, I've never had an experience like yours but I have friends that have. What I meant with the cell phone comment was that let's say someone you know dies and just after you get a twinge you get a cell phone call telling you of the sad news. You're not going to realize it in the same profound manner as you would if you were living centuries ago where your feeling was days in advance of the news. That is if it does exist. While I think it does, I am not saying I believe it 100%

[quote name='Clak']Is he fucking serious? Dude, the X-Men aren't real, Patrick Stewart can't speak to you with his mind power.

This is the nonsense I mean, it's why I have to see these psychic friends network commercials on TV.[/QUOTE]

Strawman alert.
 
[quote name='Clak']I've never understood the idea of a single christian god, because ye olde sky father seemed to undergo a bit of a conversion between the old and new testaments. I want that wrathful, vengeful, kick ass and chew bubble gum god back.[/QUOTE]

But he was also wildly inconsistent and needlessly destructive. Like Sarah Palin.
 
Are you seriously saying you believe that people can communicate via some sort of psychic ESP bullshit? You feel a "twinge," a friend has died recently, hey that must mean they're connected somehow. Can't mean it's a simple coincidence. Believing that at all is ridiculous. Just so we're clear, people can't move things with their minds either.
 
[quote name='camoor']But he was also wildly inconsistent and needlessly destructive. Like Sarah Palin.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but that god knew how to have fun.;)
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Where do you get the idea that not believing in magical beings/events = "believing in nothing"?[/QUOTE]

I am just saying if nobody in America believed or followed a religion, it would probably be chaotic. Most religions install morals and values in its followers, as well as promising a better afterlife. If people weren't scared of consequences (because of their religion) then I think our world would be a disaster. I personally do not care what anyone believes themselves.

I do agree that pushing anyone's religion on another isn't right. I've experienced it plenty of times in high school, teachers thought because I was punk- that I loved the devil? I don't know but they always tried preaching to me and asking me to go to their perfect church. Even handing out pamphlets (which I know I could have probably got her fired for) but I just smiled and accepted her little book.
 
[quote name='punklivz']If the world believed in nothing, do you know how chaotic that would be?[/QUOTE]

Not anymore than it currently is or was? Religion and morals aren't tied at the hip. I was raised with nothing, currently hold what many would view as a pessimistic view of the world/afterlife and I would bet I have better morals than 99% of Christians.
 
Exactly. One can have morals without religion for sure. It doesn't require belief in a supreme being or an afterlife to care about others etc. And by the same token, their are plenty of religious folk who don't care much for those who don't share their beliefs.
 
[quote name='Clak']Are you seriously saying you believe that people can communicate via some sort of psychic ESP bullshit? You feel a "twinge," a friend has died recently, hey that must mean they're connected somehow. Can't mean it's a simple coincidence. Believing that at all is ridiculous. Just so we're clear, people can't move things with their minds either.[/QUOTE]

Just because science hasn't conclusively proved something doesn't mean it isn't happening (or is happening for that matter)

For example, some people used to think the human ability of intuition was bullshit but now we're discovering there may be objective truths behind our perception of this ability.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/health/research/28brain.html?_r=1&hpw
 
[quote name='Clak']Yeah, but that god knew how to have fun.;)[/QUOTE]

Palin shoots wolves with a sniper rifle from a helicopter. If that isn't a redneck definition of heaven then I don't know what is.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Not anymore than it currently is or was? Religion and morals aren't tied at the hip. I was raised with nothing, currently hold what many would view as a pessimistic view of the world/afterlife and I would bet I have better morals than 99% of Christians.[/QUOTE]

I am not saying EVERYONE. I am saying the majority of AS IS religious people.
 
The Freedom From Religion Foundation plastered more signs on 75 Chicago buses this week encouraging Chicagoans to skip church and sleep in on Sundays.
...
“Obviously, there are many reasons to reject religion, most of them intellectual,” said Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. “But face it — one of the immediate benefits of quitting church, besides getting a 10 percent raise because you can stop tithing, is getting to sleep in on Sundays! What the world really needs is a good night’s sleep.”
Click to expand...

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com...ign-urges-riders-to-skip-church-sleep-in.html

:lol:
 
[quote name='punklivz']I am not saying EVERYONE. I am saying the majority of AS IS religious people.[/QUOTE]

I would argue that it would be because they were poorly raised over the lack of religion. If the only thing keeping you in check is the the threat of an all-watching boogeyman in the sky potentially sending you to a lake of fire when you die...your parents did a shitty job.
 
[quote name='camoor']Palin shoots wolves with a sniper rifle from a helicopter. If that isn't a redneck definition of heaven then I don't know what is.[/QUOTE]
I'm joking dude, just joking. I just think it's funny that god apparently either had a mid life crisis or suffers from multiple personalities.

The argument that science can't prove *insert thing here* is the same argument that the religious like to use, and I won't buy it from them either. That just because science can't prove god doesn't exist, that is somehow a failing. There are lots of things science can't prove, but giving the possibility of it being true or false, I'm sticking with the simplest, most probable answer, like anyone should.

Not that I'm glad we can't, would destroy the phone business if we could.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Exactly. One can have morals without religion for sure. It doesn't require belief in a supreme being or an afterlife to care about others etc. And by the same token, their are plenty of religious folk who don't care much for those who don't share their beliefs.[/QUOTE]
I once had this argument in an English class of places, if morals and religion were inseparable. Some girl flatly said that without religion a person couldn't be moral. It still blows my mind today. I didn't even bother asking her if it mattered which religion a person belonged to.
 
[quote name='Clak']I'm joking dude, just joking. I just think it's funny that god apparently either had a mid life crisis or suffers from multiple personalities.[/QUOTE]

Me too. Pretty much anything I say about Palin is a joke, she's a walking punchline. Of course sometimes the real joke is on the people stupid enough to buy her schtick.

[quote name='Clak']The argument that science can't prove *insert thing here* is the same argument that the religious like to use, and I won't buy it from them either. That just because science can't prove god doesn't exist, that is somehow a failing. There are lots of things science can't prove, but giving the possibility of it being true or false, I'm sticking with the simplest, most probable answer, like anyone should.

Not that I'm glad we can't, would destroy the phone business if we could.[/QUOTE]

No no no. I am not saying you should have blind faith in telepathic ability, as a Christian does with the Christian God. For the record, I think science has done a dandy job in proving that average joes cannot telepatically communicate symbols on paper cards, and the frauds/charlatans of the world have suceeded in ensuring that anyone who studies this going forward is seen as a kook.

It may occur, it may not occur. Personally I think the ability is very subtle, it only occurs for very traumatic events. This would be something very hard to setup an experiment for (After all, who would be willing to cut off modern communication and continuously measure for a response while waiting for news of a traumatic event. Also, how would you measure.)
 
[quote name='camoor']
It may occur, it may not occur. Personally I think the ability is very subtle, it only occurs for very traumatic events. This would be something very hard to setup an experiment for (After all, who would be willing to cut off modern communication and continuously measure for a response while waiting for news of a traumatic event. Also, how would you measure.)[/QUOTE]

If you have absolutely no evidence for psychic/paranormal phenomena, why believe it?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218293233140975017

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4720837385783230047
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']If you have absolutely no evidence for psychic/paranormal phenomena, why believe it?[/QUOTE]

Gee you haven't read the whole thread, have you.

Sarang was just saying he experienced it and I have a close friend who experienced it too. I have also read of anecdotal cases. Granted this is not irrefutable scientific method proof but that doesn't necessarily invalidate it. I will grant that it could turn out to be confabulation, but I lean towards the idea that there is something there.

BTW your responses are what I refer to as the religion of athiesm (as opposed to normal athiesm). The idea that you cannot have an opinion on anything until it has been proven via the scientific method.
 
You can have your opinions of course, but that's all they are, and you can't expect people to take them seriously without some sort of evidence.

Believing in the paranormal to me is like gambling, and I'm not a gambling man. The safe bet is on the probable, and it's more probable that any feelings of psychic connections are just those, feelings, no more than a coincidence.

I don't begrudge you your right to believe though. That's something I think many people like myself get misunderstood for. As out there as I may think something is, you have every right to believe what you want. I just wish people could be a bit more sensible with their beliefs.
 
[quote name='camoor']The idea that you cannot have an opinion on anything until it has been proven via the scientific method.[/QUOTE]

One can have an opinion on anything.

But they're can't be knowledge without proof. And at the end of the day I long since stopped caring about people's opinion's long ago. Facts and knowledge are all that matter at the end of the day.
 
[quote name='camoor']Sarang was just saying he experienced it and I have a close friend who experienced it too. I have also read of anecdotal cases. [/QUOTE]

There is a VERY good reason secondhand anecdotes aren't considered credible by science. Even if your friends did experience something paranormal and your acceptance of their stories are correct, the fact that you are willing to accept extraordinary claims based on anecdotes means your mind is going to let in a lot of false beliefs as well.

This sums it up well @ 7:25:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']There is a VERY good reason secondhand anecdotes aren't considered credible by science. Even if your friends did experience something paranormal and your acceptance of their stories are correct, the fact that you are willing to accept extraordinary claims based on anecdotes means your mind is going to let in a lot of false beliefs as well.[/QUOTE]

Of course. Science hasn't proved that traumatic events can trigger a telepathic communication. I already said this twice. I'd say again that I don't hold it as an a priori truth but I don't think you guys care.

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.
- Einstein
Click to expand...

Almost everyone wonders about the world, and has at least some beliefs that could turn out to be false. If you don't, I feel sorry for you man.
 
I wonder about the world, but I don't believe explanations for the unknown. I wonder about them and think about what science could do to build knowledge and reduce the unknown.

The "mysterious" and arts etc. I leave for fiction/entertainment, not form beliefs and opinions.

Edit: Wanted to add that I don't mean that antagonistically. I in no way look down on people who have more faith and more easily buy into the paranormal etc. It's just not my world view/personality.
 
Here's my take on most religions. Religion jumps the shark once elements of competition are incorporated with it. Nearly all religions acknowledge the existence of "false" religions and denounce them. Just stop the trash talk and focus on your own religion and its people! Proselytizing leads to conflicts when it's done aggressively. Creating and spreading awareness of your religion is fine, but I draw the line when it leads to harsh criticism of others making their choices on what religion they choose.

A competitive attitude, when left unchecked, can lead to ruthless actions and thoughts. It undermines the very morality that religions are supposedly teaching. I don't think morals and competition can combine well in a religious context.
 
[quote name='camoor']Of course. Science hasn't proved that traumatic events can trigger a telepathic communication. I already said this twice. I'd say again that I don't hold it as an a priori truth but I don't think you guys care.



Almost everyone wonders about the world, and has at least some beliefs that could turn out to be false. If you don't, I feel sorry for you man.[/QUOTE]
I understand that quote, maybe better than you do yourself in a scientific context. Science is fueled by mystery, it's why scientists do what they do, but they do it to explain the mysteries, they don't sit wide-eyed and slack jawed in bewilderment. I don't wonder is ESP is real because it's science fiction, not science fact. If anyone is currently researching it and finds compelling evidence that it's real, I may change my mind later. Right now though I'll continue to laugh at Dr. Venkman and his hokey ESP experiment.
 
That's a good way of putting it Clak.

Men of science look at mysteries and use science to try to unravel them. The men of faith or more willing to form opinions based on anecdotes, religious beliefs etc.

Again, I don't mean that negatively. Just two different philosophical approaches to life and the world/universe around us.
 
dude, why all the christian bashing? Science doesn't prove that god doesn't exist, and nine times out of ten will never prove so.
 
Who are you referring to? If me, like I said I don't bash religious folks. I have a different view, and I respect their right to have their own views.

As long as people aren't going around shoving their views down others throats, I couldn't give two shits less what anyone believes. At the end of the day, the only beliefs and opinions that matter are one's own.

In a general sense, of course, as one has to care what their boss, significant other etc. think. But on issues like faith and science? Opinions of others shouldn't have much bearing on your own. Independent though is a key requirement of being a worthwhile human being for both men of science and men of faith!
 
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