Chrisitianity (or any religion really) is a order of bullshit and chips.
- Thread starter gargus
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He, and other's who replied, see what you were saying. He was just disagreeing.
And I'm with him. Morals aren't tied to religion. One can learn right from wrong, develop empathy etc. without believing in supreme beings, the afterlife etc.
Implying that they can't and that the world would go to shit without religion is doing something that drives me nuts about religious folk---being kind of smug and feeling that their beliefs (or religious beliefs in general) are the right away and that the world would go to hell without them.
An atheist can be an upstanding moral citizen just as easily as priest can rape a choirboy.
Religion is just one of many social systems in place to instill morals and exercise social control. It's not some magically institution that makes people moral where secular institutions such as families, schools etc. fail to do so.
And I'm with him. Morals aren't tied to religion. One can learn right from wrong, develop empathy etc. without believing in supreme beings, the afterlife etc.
Implying that they can't and that the world would go to shit without religion is doing something that drives me nuts about religious folk---being kind of smug and feeling that their beliefs (or religious beliefs in general) are the right away and that the world would go to hell without them.
An atheist can be an upstanding moral citizen just as easily as priest can rape a choirboy.
Religion is just one of many social systems in place to instill morals and exercise social control. It's not some magically institution that makes people moral where secular institutions such as families, schools etc. fail to do so.
xxDOYLExx
CAGiversary!
[quote name='dmaul1114']He, and other's who replied, see what you were saying. He was just disagreeing.
And I'm with him. Morals aren't tied to religion. One can learn right from wrong, develop empathy etc. without believing in supreme beings, the afterlife etc.
Implying that they can't and that the world would go to shit without religion is doing something that drives me nuts about religious folk---being kind of smug and feeling that their beliefs (or religious beliefs in general) are the right away and that the world would go to hell without them.
An atheist can be an upstanding moral citizen just as easily as priest can rape a choirboy.
Religion is just one of many social systems in place to instill morals and exercise social control. It's not some magically institution that makes people moral where secular institutions such as families, schools etc. fail to do so.[/QUOTE]
What your saying is absolutely true. I do believe however, that the fear of fire and brimstone will keep some folks from doing bad things. Without that fear, they may not care as much.
And I'm with him. Morals aren't tied to religion. One can learn right from wrong, develop empathy etc. without believing in supreme beings, the afterlife etc.
Implying that they can't and that the world would go to shit without religion is doing something that drives me nuts about religious folk---being kind of smug and feeling that their beliefs (or religious beliefs in general) are the right away and that the world would go to hell without them.
An atheist can be an upstanding moral citizen just as easily as priest can rape a choirboy.
Religion is just one of many social systems in place to instill morals and exercise social control. It's not some magically institution that makes people moral where secular institutions such as families, schools etc. fail to do so.[/QUOTE]
What your saying is absolutely true. I do believe however, that the fear of fire and brimstone will keep some folks from doing bad things. Without that fear, they may not care as much.
[quote name='dmaul1114']He, and other's who replied, see what you were saying. He was just disagreeing.
And I'm with him. Morals aren't tied to religion. One can learn right from wrong, develop empathy etc. without believing in supreme beings, the afterlife etc.
Implying that they can't and that the world would go to shit without religion is doing something that drives me nuts about religious folk---being kind of smug and feeling that their beliefs (or religious beliefs in general) are the right away and that the world would go to hell without them.
An atheist can be an upstanding moral citizen just as easily as priest can rape a choirboy.
Religion is just one of many social systems in place to instill morals and exercise social control. It's not some magically institution that makes people moral where secular institutions such as families, schools etc. fail to do so.[/QUOTE]
you fail to see my point too. i did not say ALL. i said a majority, and believe it. I believe that religion keeps tons of people in check, for lack of a better term. I am not saying that Athiests are criminals, or don't have morals. I was just stating that I am greatful for religion because I BELIEVE it plays a huge role in our societies, and without it I BELIEVE it would be a wreck. Again.
And I'm with him. Morals aren't tied to religion. One can learn right from wrong, develop empathy etc. without believing in supreme beings, the afterlife etc.
Implying that they can't and that the world would go to shit without religion is doing something that drives me nuts about religious folk---being kind of smug and feeling that their beliefs (or religious beliefs in general) are the right away and that the world would go to hell without them.
An atheist can be an upstanding moral citizen just as easily as priest can rape a choirboy.
Religion is just one of many social systems in place to instill morals and exercise social control. It's not some magically institution that makes people moral where secular institutions such as families, schools etc. fail to do so.[/QUOTE]
you fail to see my point too. i did not say ALL. i said a majority, and believe it. I believe that religion keeps tons of people in check, for lack of a better term. I am not saying that Athiests are criminals, or don't have morals. I was just stating that I am greatful for religion because I BELIEVE it plays a huge role in our societies, and without it I BELIEVE it would be a wreck. Again.
[quote name='xxDOYLExx']What your saying is absolutely true. I do believe however, that the fear of fire and brimstone will keep some folks from doing bad things. Without that fear, they may not care as much.[/QUOTE]
Sure. I wasn't at all saying religion isn't one way to instill morals, nor that it isn't one of many effective agents of social control we have in society.
Just saying that it's silly to think that the world would go to shit without religion is just someone putting too much stock in their own beliefs. Just a way to less rudely say "my views are right and people can't truly be good people if they don't share them."
Sure. I wasn't at all saying religion isn't one way to instill morals, nor that it isn't one of many effective agents of social control we have in society.
Just saying that it's silly to think that the world would go to shit without religion is just someone putting too much stock in their own beliefs. Just a way to less rudely say "my views are right and people can't truly be good people if they don't share them."
[quote name='dmaul1114']Sure. I wasn't at all saying religion isn't one way to instill morals, nor that it isn't one of many effective agents of social control we have in society.
Just saying that it's silly to think that the world would go to shit without religion is just someone putting too much stock in their own beliefs. Just a way to less rudely say "my views are right and people can't truly be good people if they don't share them."[/QUOTE]
That is what I think. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT MY BELIEFS!!!!! I AM NOT CHRISTIAN, or CATHOLIC OR ANY OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooo how do you get "my views are right and people can't be truly be good people if they don't share them" that is NOT what I am saying at ALL
Just saying that it's silly to think that the world would go to shit without religion is just someone putting too much stock in their own beliefs. Just a way to less rudely say "my views are right and people can't truly be good people if they don't share them."[/QUOTE]
That is what I think. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT MY BELIEFS!!!!! I AM NOT CHRISTIAN, or CATHOLIC OR ANY OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooo how do you get "my views are right and people can't be truly be good people if they don't share them" that is NOT what I am saying at ALL
[quote name='punklivz']you fail to see my point too. i did not say ALL. i said a majority, and believe it. I believe that religion keeps tons of people in check, for lack of a better term. I am not saying that Athiests are criminals or have higher crime rates.[/QUOTE]
I see your point and still disagree with it.
I think a 100% atheist world would be no different in terms of morals, crime etc. etc. as the current make up of the world. Hell, maybe less since you'd take away some of the crimes committed in the name of religion by extremists probably.
Society has a need for morals and social control--they'd remain in place just as well without religion as family will always play the largest role in shaping norms and values, and then peers, schools etc. Afterall, without those things kids wouldn't be in church in the first place.
Thus there's a huge self selection bias problem when trying to look at (study) the impact of religion on behavior anyway. i.e. if kids aren't in a stable family that's trying to instill social normative behavior and morals etc., they probably wouldn't be in church etc. So it's a which came first chicken-egg type of problem.
Do "moral" families have "good" morals because of attending church? Or are people who's morals already mesh with those of a certain religion more likely to attend that church?
I see your point and still disagree with it.
I think a 100% atheist world would be no different in terms of morals, crime etc. etc. as the current make up of the world. Hell, maybe less since you'd take away some of the crimes committed in the name of religion by extremists probably.
Society has a need for morals and social control--they'd remain in place just as well without religion as family will always play the largest role in shaping norms and values, and then peers, schools etc. Afterall, without those things kids wouldn't be in church in the first place.
Thus there's a huge self selection bias problem when trying to look at (study) the impact of religion on behavior anyway. i.e. if kids aren't in a stable family that's trying to instill social normative behavior and morals etc., they probably wouldn't be in church etc. So it's a which came first chicken-egg type of problem.
Do "moral" families have "good" morals because of attending church? Or are people who's morals already mesh with those of a certain religion more likely to attend that church?
[quote name='punklivz']That is what I think. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT MY BELIEFS!!!!! I AM NOT CHRISTIAN, or CATHOLIC OR ANY OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooo how do you get "my views are right and people can't be truly be good people if they don't share them" that is NOT what I am saying at ALL[/QUOTE]
Saying the world would go to hell without religion implicitly implies some level of belief that having religious/spiritual beliefs is morally superior to not having them.
It would be like me or another atheist saying---"Scientific progress would be well ahead of where it is if there was no religion, because people with religious beliefs lack the curiosity/ability to seek answers."
You saying the world would go to crap without religion is implicitly implying that religion is some how morally superior to atheism, just like my statement implies that atheists are intellectually superior/more open minded that religious folk.
Which is fine, if you feel religion=superior morals you have a right to that belief. Just like I have a right to the belief that religion attracts people who are less curious, too weak to face the thought of never seeing loved ones who die again etc. But it's always better to come right out and say things rather than beat around the bush.
I'll freely admit I respect people's rights to have and hold different beliefs from mine. But that doesn't mean I respect such beliefs. I don't and I avoid super-religious folk like the plague and would never have any in my circle of closest friends etc.
Saying the world would go to hell without religion implicitly implies some level of belief that having religious/spiritual beliefs is morally superior to not having them.
It would be like me or another atheist saying---"Scientific progress would be well ahead of where it is if there was no religion, because people with religious beliefs lack the curiosity/ability to seek answers."
You saying the world would go to crap without religion is implicitly implying that religion is some how morally superior to atheism, just like my statement implies that atheists are intellectually superior/more open minded that religious folk.
Which is fine, if you feel religion=superior morals you have a right to that belief. Just like I have a right to the belief that religion attracts people who are less curious, too weak to face the thought of never seeing loved ones who die again etc. But it's always better to come right out and say things rather than beat around the bush.
I'll freely admit I respect people's rights to have and hold different beliefs from mine. But that doesn't mean I respect such beliefs. I don't and I avoid super-religious folk like the plague and would never have any in my circle of closest friends etc.
[quote name='dmaul1114']I see your point and still disagree with it.
I think a 100% atheist world would be no different in terms of morals, crime etc. etc. as the current make up of the world. Hell, maybe less since you'd take away some of the crimes committed in the name of religion by extremists probably.
Society has a need for morals and social control--they'd remain in place just as well without religion as family will always play the largest role in shaping norms and values, and then peers, schools etc. Afterall, without those things kids wouldn't be in church in the first place.
Thus there's a huge self selection bias problem when trying to look at (study) the impact of religion on behavior anyway. i.e. if kids aren't in a stable family that's trying to instill social normative behavior and morals etc., they probably wouldn't be in church etc. So it's a which came first chicken-egg type of problem.
Do "moral" families have "good" morals because of attending church? Or are people who's morals already mesh with those of a certain religion more likely to attend that church?[/QUOTE]
I disagree with you
If people KNEW that there was NO afterlife, and felt they had no moral consequences (if that makes since)...
I think a 100% atheist world would be no different in terms of morals, crime etc. etc. as the current make up of the world. Hell, maybe less since you'd take away some of the crimes committed in the name of religion by extremists probably.
Society has a need for morals and social control--they'd remain in place just as well without religion as family will always play the largest role in shaping norms and values, and then peers, schools etc. Afterall, without those things kids wouldn't be in church in the first place.
Thus there's a huge self selection bias problem when trying to look at (study) the impact of religion on behavior anyway. i.e. if kids aren't in a stable family that's trying to instill social normative behavior and morals etc., they probably wouldn't be in church etc. So it's a which came first chicken-egg type of problem.
Do "moral" families have "good" morals because of attending church? Or are people who's morals already mesh with those of a certain religion more likely to attend that church?[/QUOTE]
I disagree with you
If people KNEW that there was NO afterlife, and felt they had no moral consequences (if that makes since)...
xxDOYLExx
CAGiversary!
[quote name='dmaul1114']I see your point and still disagree with it.
I think a 100% atheist world would be no different in terms of morals, crime etc. etc. as the current make up of the world. Hell, maybe less since you'd take away some of the crimes committed in the name of religion by extremists probably.
Society has a need for morals and social control--they'd remain in place just as well without religion as family will always play the largest role in shaping norms and values, and then peers, schools etc. Afterall, without those things kids wouldn't be in church in the first place.
Thus there's a huge self selection bias problem when trying to look at (study) the impact of religion on behavior anyway. i.e. if kids aren't in a stable family that's trying to instill social normative behavior and morals etc., they probably wouldn't be in church etc. So it's a which came first chicken-egg type of problem.
Do "moral" families have "good" morals because of attending church? Or are people who's morals already mesh with those of a certain religion more likely to attend that church?[/QUOTE]
dood, that last paragraph is so right on. I love it when people tell me they joined a particular religion because they "agree" with it. If you believe its Jesus' (or whomever) church, your opinion on how its ran is irrelevant. Great comment.
I think a 100% atheist world would be no different in terms of morals, crime etc. etc. as the current make up of the world. Hell, maybe less since you'd take away some of the crimes committed in the name of religion by extremists probably.
Society has a need for morals and social control--they'd remain in place just as well without religion as family will always play the largest role in shaping norms and values, and then peers, schools etc. Afterall, without those things kids wouldn't be in church in the first place.
Thus there's a huge self selection bias problem when trying to look at (study) the impact of religion on behavior anyway. i.e. if kids aren't in a stable family that's trying to instill social normative behavior and morals etc., they probably wouldn't be in church etc. So it's a which came first chicken-egg type of problem.
Do "moral" families have "good" morals because of attending church? Or are people who's morals already mesh with those of a certain religion more likely to attend that church?[/QUOTE]
dood, that last paragraph is so right on. I love it when people tell me they joined a particular religion because they "agree" with it. If you believe its Jesus' (or whomever) church, your opinion on how its ran is irrelevant. Great comment.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Saying the world would go to hell without religion implicitly implies some level of belief that having religious/spiritual beliefs is morally superior to not having them.
It would be like me or another atheist saying---"Scientific progress would be well ahead of where it is if there was no religion, because people with religious beliefs lack the curiosity/ability to seek answers."
You saying the world would go to crap without religion is implicitly implying that religion is some how morally superior to atheism, just like my statement implies that atheists are intellectually superior/more open minded that religious folk.
Which is fine, if you feel religion=superior morals you have a right to that belief. Just like I have a right to the belief that religion attracts people who are less curious, too weak to face the thought of never seeing loved ones who die again etc. But it's always better to come right out and say things rather than beat around the bush.
I'll freely admit I respect people's rights to have and hold different beliefs from mine. But that doesn't mean I respect such beliefs. I don't and I avoid super-religious folk like the plague and would never have any in my circle of closest friends etc.[/QUOTE]
I don't hold a religion myself
and I stand by my beliefs. I do not think that religion is higher then anything, I just think it keeps A LOT OF PEOPLE in line.
It would be like me or another atheist saying---"Scientific progress would be well ahead of where it is if there was no religion, because people with religious beliefs lack the curiosity/ability to seek answers."
You saying the world would go to crap without religion is implicitly implying that religion is some how morally superior to atheism, just like my statement implies that atheists are intellectually superior/more open minded that religious folk.
Which is fine, if you feel religion=superior morals you have a right to that belief. Just like I have a right to the belief that religion attracts people who are less curious, too weak to face the thought of never seeing loved ones who die again etc. But it's always better to come right out and say things rather than beat around the bush.
I'll freely admit I respect people's rights to have and hold different beliefs from mine. But that doesn't mean I respect such beliefs. I don't and I avoid super-religious folk like the plague and would never have any in my circle of closest friends etc.[/QUOTE]
I don't hold a religion myself
and I stand by my beliefs. I do not think that religion is higher then anything, I just think it keeps A LOT OF PEOPLE in line.
[quote name='punklivz']I disagree with you If people KNEW that there was NO afterlife, and felt they had no moral consequences (if that makes since)...[/QUOTE]
I believe 100% that there is no afterlife, but I still have a sense of right and wrong because of how I was raised, and my overall socialization process.
I don't do wrong things as I don't want to hurt others, not because of some silly fear of burning in hell.
Not to mention the immediate social consequences we have for anti-social behavior--be it shaming by family and friends, being ostracized, punishments from parents or school official, threat of being fired from work, and threat of fines and jail time for breaking criminal laws.
Humans are impulsive and think about the here and now, I believe 100% those more immediate agents of social control have more influence on even religious folks behavior than the threat of hell. Especially since at least Christianity is all about forgiveness and one can just confess and be cleaned of all their sins and welcomed into heaven.
And even with those immediate forms of social control, the research on deterrence and rational choice shows that people are impulsive and at best have very limited rationality and don't often think about the chances of getting caught and punished before acting.
If people KNEW that there was NO afterlife, and felt they had no moral consequences (if that makes since)...[/QUOTE]I believe 100% that there is no afterlife, but I still have a sense of right and wrong because of how I was raised, and my overall socialization process.
I don't do wrong things as I don't want to hurt others, not because of some silly fear of burning in hell.
Not to mention the immediate social consequences we have for anti-social behavior--be it shaming by family and friends, being ostracized, punishments from parents or school official, threat of being fired from work, and threat of fines and jail time for breaking criminal laws.
Humans are impulsive and think about the here and now, I believe 100% those more immediate agents of social control have more influence on even religious folks behavior than the threat of hell. Especially since at least Christianity is all about forgiveness and one can just confess and be cleaned of all their sins and welcomed into heaven.
And even with those immediate forms of social control, the research on deterrence and rational choice shows that people are impulsive and at best have very limited rationality and don't often think about the chances of getting caught and punished before acting.
[quote name='dmaul1114']I believe 100% that there is no afterlife, but I still have a sense of right and wrong because of how I was raised, and my overall socialization process.
I don't do wrong things as I don't want to hurt others, not because of some silly fear of burning in hell.
Not to mention the immediate social consequences we have for anti-social behavior--be it shaming by family and friends, being ostracized, punishments from parents or school official, threat of being fired from work, and threat of fines and jail time for breaking criminal laws.
Humans are impulsive and think about the here and now, I believe 100% those more immediate agents of social control have more influence on even religious folks behavior than the threat of hell. Especially since at least Christianity is all about forgiveness and one can just confess and be cleaned of all their sins and welcomed into heaven.
And even with those immediate forms of social control, the research on deterrence and rational choice shows that people are impulsive and at best have very limited rationality and don't often think about the chances of getting caught and punished before acting.[/QUOTE]
LoL... I don't think people are seeing what I am saying in black and white, you guys are getting too in depth.. I am not trying to bring anyones beliefs down, or make people agree with me. I chose to think religion is a great thing because of it's power it holds in people, and how it keeps them in line. I am greatful for it, and still believe that without it our world would be chaotic. That's just my opinion, which won't change until I'm proven wrong LOL, which would take ceasing all religion.
which would take me to the point of how this is probably what created religions in the first place Just another opinion
I don't do wrong things as I don't want to hurt others, not because of some silly fear of burning in hell.
Not to mention the immediate social consequences we have for anti-social behavior--be it shaming by family and friends, being ostracized, punishments from parents or school official, threat of being fired from work, and threat of fines and jail time for breaking criminal laws.
Humans are impulsive and think about the here and now, I believe 100% those more immediate agents of social control have more influence on even religious folks behavior than the threat of hell. Especially since at least Christianity is all about forgiveness and one can just confess and be cleaned of all their sins and welcomed into heaven.
And even with those immediate forms of social control, the research on deterrence and rational choice shows that people are impulsive and at best have very limited rationality and don't often think about the chances of getting caught and punished before acting.[/QUOTE]
LoL... I don't think people are seeing what I am saying in black and white, you guys are getting too in depth.. I am not trying to bring anyones beliefs down, or make people agree with me. I chose to think religion is a great thing because of it's power it holds in people, and how it keeps them in line. I am greatful for it, and still believe that without it our world would be chaotic. That's just my opinion, which won't change until I'm proven wrong LOL, which would take ceasing all religion.
which would take me to the point of how this is probably what created religions in the first place
Just another opinionI get that, I'm just disagreeing with it.
All the research on deterrence/rational choice in sociology and criminal justice pretty much concludes that people are impulsive and present minded and don't consider the long-term consequences of their action.
So I find it very hard to believe that someone thinking of robbing someone decides not to because they're afraid of going to hell. Especially since they can just confess and be forgiven (assuming they're christian) and be square with god.
Now some studies do suggest that people with high morals (be it religious specific, or just generic tests of understanding of right or wrong) are "undeterrable" because their moral values keep them from ever considering a criminal act--so the threat of punishment can have no impact on them.
So sure, religion can and DOES have positive impacts.
I just think you overstate it, so I disagree. A 100% atheist area would have no more crime or social illnesses than another area that was identical on all factors other than being 100% religious.
You're not going to find surveys with socially representative samples that find differences between religious folk and atheists on issues like crime, war etc. i.e. the types of moral issues that could ruin a society.
The differences you'll find are on things that are purely/mostly religious morals like pre-marital sex, cohabitation, abortion etc. and none of those type of things will ruin a society.
All the research on deterrence/rational choice in sociology and criminal justice pretty much concludes that people are impulsive and present minded and don't consider the long-term consequences of their action.
So I find it very hard to believe that someone thinking of robbing someone decides not to because they're afraid of going to hell. Especially since they can just confess and be forgiven (assuming they're christian) and be square with god.
Now some studies do suggest that people with high morals (be it religious specific, or just generic tests of understanding of right or wrong) are "undeterrable" because their moral values keep them from ever considering a criminal act--so the threat of punishment can have no impact on them.
So sure, religion can and DOES have positive impacts.
I just think you overstate it, so I disagree. A 100% atheist area would have no more crime or social illnesses than another area that was identical on all factors other than being 100% religious.
You're not going to find surveys with socially representative samples that find differences between religious folk and atheists on issues like crime, war etc. i.e. the types of moral issues that could ruin a society.
The differences you'll find are on things that are purely/mostly religious morals like pre-marital sex, cohabitation, abortion etc. and none of those type of things will ruin a society.
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[quote name='punklivz']I understand, and still disagree I don't think an all Athiest planet would be the same. I think the crime rates would be higher, but that is my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. We can just agree to disagree then.
I do agree than an all atheist world wouldn't be the same--there'd probably be a little less crime once you got rid of all the religious justifications for oppressing women, starting wars etc., while seeing no increase other other anti social behavior as that comes more from parenting etc.......
I don't think an all Athiest planet would be the same. I think the crime rates would be higher, but that is my opinion.[/QUOTE]Fair enough. We can just agree to disagree then.
I do agree than an all atheist world wouldn't be the same--there'd probably be a little less crime once you got rid of all the religious justifications for oppressing women, starting wars etc., while seeing no increase other other anti social behavior as that comes more from parenting etc.......
LuKazKane
Banned
[quote name='punklivz']I understand, and still disagree I don't think an all Athiest planet would be the same. I think the crime rates would be higher, but that is my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much, look @ it like this...
Tim McVeigh was atheist
The Columbine killers were atheist
Pol Pot, Stalin were atheist
Atheist won't change anything. There'd still be
ed up shit going on today.
I don't think an all Athiest planet would be the same. I think the crime rates would be higher, but that is my opinion.[/QUOTE]Pretty much, look @ it like this...
Tim McVeigh was atheist
The Columbine killers were atheist
Pol Pot, Stalin were atheist
Atheist won't change anything. There'd still be
ed up shit going on today.And how many criminals are religious? How many priests rape little boys/girls? How many wars are started in the name of god? How many women are violated/oppressed because of religions?
Religion and morals don't go hand in hand. Their are moral atheists and immoral atheists. Moral christians and immoral christians.
Religious belief or lack there of is only one very tiny part of whether one's a good person or not.
Religion and morals don't go hand in hand. Their are moral atheists and immoral atheists. Moral christians and immoral christians.
Religious belief or lack there of is only one very tiny part of whether one's a good person or not.
LuKazKane
Banned
[quote name='punklivz']heh, I would think that in an Athiests world, adultry rates would probably be higher, as well as promiscuous men and women, and at that rate STD and pregnancy rates would probably be higher. Teen pregnancies would be higher, etc... just a thought [/QUOTE]
Pretty much....lack of morals and respect for one and another...most likely will happen.
[/QUOTE]Pretty much....lack of morals and respect for one and another...most likely will happen.
[quote name='dmaul1114']And how many criminals are religious? How many priests rape little boys/girls? How many wars are started in the name of god? How many women are violated/oppressed because of religions?
Religion and morals don't go hand in hand. Their are moral atheists and immoral atheists. Moral christians and immoral christians.
Religious belief or lack there of is only one very tiny part of whether one's a good person or not.[/QUOTE]
very well stated, and I agree.
Religion and morals don't go hand in hand. Their are moral atheists and immoral atheists. Moral christians and immoral christians.
Religious belief or lack there of is only one very tiny part of whether one's a good person or not.[/QUOTE]
very well stated, and I agree.
that's just my speculation of an atheist world. I do believe that religion keeps people in line when it comes to moral decisions. I do KNOW that not all people are good, and yadda yadda yadda. I just think people would "let lose" if they thought that there was no reason to live. I am not trying to convince you to change your mind I keep saying the same thing LOL... I just feel this way, even though I'm far from religious myself
I keep saying the same thing LOL... I just feel this way, even though I'm far from religious myself [quote name='punklivz']heh, I would think that in an Athiests world, adultry rates would probably be higher, as well as promiscuous men and women, and at that rate STD and pregnancy rates would probably be higher. Teen pregnancies would be higher, etc... just a thought [/QUOTE]
I don't think so. All that stuff is plenty high among religious folk as well.
Adultery I definitely don't think would be any higher as that's all about commitment to your partner more than anything to do with religion.
People abstain from cheating because they don't want to hurt their spouse, their kids etc. I don't think many people get to the point of not caring about those things but still abstain because of fear of going to hell.
Teen sex happens everywhere--including religious schools. Just the nature of puberty and hormones etc.
Promiscuity comes down to personality and how a person was raised, past experience with relationships etc.
Religion just doesn't play that large a role in most people's decision making in my experience--even among those who go to church. They pray when someone's sick or out of habit over meals etc., but that's about it.
So I just don't share your belief that morals would go to shit without it.
[/QUOTE]I don't think so. All that stuff is plenty high among religious folk as well.
Adultery I definitely don't think would be any higher as that's all about commitment to your partner more than anything to do with religion.
People abstain from cheating because they don't want to hurt their spouse, their kids etc. I don't think many people get to the point of not caring about those things but still abstain because of fear of going to hell.
Teen sex happens everywhere--including religious schools. Just the nature of puberty and hormones etc.
Promiscuity comes down to personality and how a person was raised, past experience with relationships etc.
Religion just doesn't play that large a role in most people's decision making in my experience--even among those who go to church. They pray when someone's sick or out of habit over meals etc., but that's about it.
So I just don't share your belief that morals would go to shit without it.
[quote name='dmaul1114']I don't think so. All that stuff is plenty high among religious folk as well.
Adultery I definitely don't think would be any higher as that's all about commitment to your partner more than anything to do with religion.
People abstain from cheating because they don't want to hurt their spouse, their kids etc. I don't think many people get to the point of not caring about those things but still abstain because of fear of going to hell.
Teen sex happens everywhere--including religious schools. Just the nature of puberty and hormones etc.
Promiscuity comes down to personality and how a person was raised, past experience with relationships etc.
Religion just doesn't play that large a role in most people's decision making in my experience--even among those who go to church. They pray when someone's sick or out of habit over meals etc., but that's about it.
So I just don't share your belief that morals would go to shit without it.[/QUOTE]
It's just my opinion of an Athiest world I know for a FACT that these all play key roles in VERY religious people's lives. I know, I was raised in a VERY strict religious home.
Adultery I definitely don't think would be any higher as that's all about commitment to your partner more than anything to do with religion.
People abstain from cheating because they don't want to hurt their spouse, their kids etc. I don't think many people get to the point of not caring about those things but still abstain because of fear of going to hell.
Teen sex happens everywhere--including religious schools. Just the nature of puberty and hormones etc.
Promiscuity comes down to personality and how a person was raised, past experience with relationships etc.
Religion just doesn't play that large a role in most people's decision making in my experience--even among those who go to church. They pray when someone's sick or out of habit over meals etc., but that's about it.
So I just don't share your belief that morals would go to shit without it.[/QUOTE]
It's just my opinion of an Athiest world
I know for a FACT that these all play key roles in VERY religious people's lives. I know, I was raised in a VERY strict religious home.[quote name='LuKazKane']Pretty much....lack of morals and respect for one and another...most likely will happen. [/QUOTE]
Bullshit. More religious people have lack of respect for people different than themselves than non-believers.
What's the biggest reason for hating gays that comes up in the US--the bible says it's a sin.
Organized religions promote divisiveness and not respecting those different from you.
And again, morals 100% are down on parenting. Good parents will raise moral kids with or without religion.
Again, I have no problem with religion. But I have huge problems with anyone that thinks lack of religion would equal a decline in morals, respect etc. That's just bullshit and I could never have an ounce of respect for a person who truly believed that.
Just like you religious folk should have no respect for the few idiot, militant atheists who believe all religious folk are weak minded fools who believe fairy tales etc.
And it's pretty hypocritical to say that atheism would lead to a lack of respect for others, when assuming that morals and respect decline because of atheism as in that statement you ARE disrespecting atheists.
[/QUOTE]Bullshit. More religious people have lack of respect for people different than themselves than non-believers.
What's the biggest reason for hating gays that comes up in the US--the bible says it's a sin.
Organized religions promote divisiveness and not respecting those different from you.
And again, morals 100% are down on parenting. Good parents will raise moral kids with or without religion.
Again, I have no problem with religion. But I have huge problems with anyone that thinks lack of religion would equal a decline in morals, respect etc. That's just bullshit and I could never have an ounce of respect for a person who truly believed that.
Just like you religious folk should have no respect for the few idiot, militant atheists who believe all religious folk are weak minded fools who believe fairy tales etc.
And it's pretty hypocritical to say that atheism would lead to a lack of respect for others, when assuming that morals and respect decline because of atheism as in that statement you ARE disrespecting atheists.
[quote name='punklivz']It's just my opinion of an Athiest world I know for a FACT that these all play key roles in VERY religious people's lives. I know, I was raised in a VERY strict religious home.[/QUOTE]
Sure, and I wasn't and commitment, not being promiscuous etc. were all stressed.
You don't need religion to re-inforce these things. Stable homes are very important for society and raising kids etc. Not being promiscuous is simply being healthy etc. etc.
You don't need the threat of hell to get people to adhere to social norms, there are much more practical reasons to be faithful, not sleep around etc. than worrying about ending up in fire for all eternity--especially since the Christians could around all they want and just confess and be forgiven!
I know for a FACT that these all play key roles in VERY religious people's lives. I know, I was raised in a VERY strict religious home.[/QUOTE]Sure, and I wasn't and commitment, not being promiscuous etc. were all stressed.
You don't need religion to re-inforce these things. Stable homes are very important for society and raising kids etc. Not being promiscuous is simply being healthy etc. etc.
You don't need the threat of hell to get people to adhere to social norms, there are much more practical reasons to be faithful, not sleep around etc. than worrying about ending up in fire for all eternity--especially since the Christians could
around all they want and just confess and be forgiven![quote name='dmaul1114']Bullshit. More religious people have lack of respect for people different than themselves than non-believers.
What's the biggest reason for hating gays that comes up in the US--the bible says it's a sin.
Organized religions promote divisiveness and not respecting those different from you.
And again, morals 100% are down on parenting. Good parents will raise moral kids with or without religion.
Again, I have no problem with religion. But I have huge problems with anyone that thinks lack of religion would equal a decline in morals, respect etc. That's just bullshit and I could never have an ounce of respect for a person who truly believed that.
Just like you religious folk should have no respect for the few idiot, militant atheists who believe all religious folk are weak minded fools who believe fairy tales etc.
And it's pretty hypocritical to say that atheism would lead to a lack of respect for others, when assuming that morals and respect decline because of atheism as in that statement you ARE disrespecting atheists.[/QUOTE]
I don't need you're respect You can keep it. I feel that way, and it's just my opinion, disagree if you want I will not lose respect for you over your opinion
What's the biggest reason for hating gays that comes up in the US--the bible says it's a sin.
Organized religions promote divisiveness and not respecting those different from you.
And again, morals 100% are down on parenting. Good parents will raise moral kids with or without religion.
Again, I have no problem with religion. But I have huge problems with anyone that thinks lack of religion would equal a decline in morals, respect etc. That's just bullshit and I could never have an ounce of respect for a person who truly believed that.
Just like you religious folk should have no respect for the few idiot, militant atheists who believe all religious folk are weak minded fools who believe fairy tales etc.
And it's pretty hypocritical to say that atheism would lead to a lack of respect for others, when assuming that morals and respect decline because of atheism as in that statement you ARE disrespecting atheists.[/QUOTE]
I don't need you're respect
You can keep it. I feel that way, and it's just my opinion, disagree if you want I will not lose respect for you over your opinion [quote name='dmaul1114']Sure, and I wasn't and commitment, not being promiscuous etc. were all stressed.
You don't need religion to re-inforce these things. Stable homes are very important for society and raising kids etc. Not being promiscuous is simply being healthy etc. etc.
You don't need the threat of hell to get people to adhere to social norms, there are much more practical reasons to be faithful, not sleep around etc. than worrying about ending up in fire for all eternity--especially since the Christians could around all they want and just confess and be forgiven![/QUOTE]
I didn't say otherwise I am raising my own children, not in church. I plan to instill morals, and respect of their bodies and mind. I am not religious, and I wouldn't want to try and force anyone to believe my beliefs.
You don't need religion to re-inforce these things. Stable homes are very important for society and raising kids etc. Not being promiscuous is simply being healthy etc. etc.
You don't need the threat of hell to get people to adhere to social norms, there are much more practical reasons to be faithful, not sleep around etc. than worrying about ending up in fire for all eternity--especially since the Christians could
around all they want and just confess and be forgiven![/QUOTE]I didn't say otherwise
I am raising my own children, not in church. I plan to instill morals, and respect of their bodies and mind. I am not religious, and I wouldn't want to try and force anyone to believe my beliefs.[quote name='punklivz']I didn't say otherwise I am raising my own children, not in church. I plan to instill morals, and respect of their bodies and mind. I am not religious, and I wouldn't want to try and force anyone to believe my beliefs.[/QUOTE]
Then it's a bit puzzling why you think morals would decline in a non-religious world.
What's so special about you and your spouse/partner that you can instill morals, respect etc. in your children without religion, but you don't think the rest of humanity can?
I am raising my own children, not in church. I plan to instill morals, and respect of their bodies and mind. I am not religious, and I wouldn't want to try and force anyone to believe my beliefs.[/QUOTE]Then it's a bit puzzling why you think morals would decline in a non-religious world.
What's so special about you and your spouse/partner that you can instill morals, respect etc. in your children without religion, but you don't think the rest of humanity can?
[quote name='dmaul1114']Then it's a bit puzzling why you think morals would decline in a non-religious world.
What's so special about you and your spouse/partner that you can instill morals, respect etc. in your children without religion, but you don't think the rest of humanity can?[/QUOTE]
That's not it at all, I never said ALL of humanity. I just feel as though religion holds a huge role in a lot of peoples lives. I feel as it is needed in order to keep it from going chaotic. If it wasn't religion, it would be something else. There has to be SOMETHING to keep people in line (it's too easy to break laws, can't enforce them 100% of the time). There has to be that fear, and without it I believe it people wouldn't have anything to hold them back. I am not saying EVERYBODY, just the majority of people who are religiously religious. If my children decide they want to go to church I will support them.
People who are religious normally believe in morals AND afterlife consequences, thus keeping them in line. I am not saying that people who aren't religious, don't have any morals (LOOK AT ME)...
What's so special about you and your spouse/partner that you can instill morals, respect etc. in your children without religion, but you don't think the rest of humanity can?[/QUOTE]
That's not it at all, I never said ALL of humanity. I just feel as though religion holds a huge role in a lot of peoples lives. I feel as it is needed in order to keep it from going chaotic. If it wasn't religion, it would be something else. There has to be SOMETHING to keep people in line (it's too easy to break laws, can't enforce them 100% of the time). There has to be that fear, and without it I believe it people wouldn't have anything to hold them back. I am not saying EVERYBODY, just the majority of people who are religiously religious. If my children decide they want to go to church I will support them.
People who are religious normally believe in morals AND afterlife consequences, thus keeping them in line. I am not saying that people who aren't religious, don't have any morals (LOOK AT ME)...
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[quote name='dmaul1114']I think that's going to far. As I said earlier, I can accept that there are some things we'll simply never know/be able to explain.
And I'm fine with that. I'm not willing to take the easy way out and explain away the unexplainable with religion, mysticism, the supernatural etc.
I'll just write those off as things beyond the human intellect to figure out.[/QUOTE]
To be clear I wasn't talking about your viewpoint dmaul. I find your brand of skepticism refreshing.
However I will disagree with describing religion and spirituality as the easy way out. Try thinking of absolutely nothing for ten seconds, ironically there is nothing easy about it.
And I'm fine with that. I'm not willing to take the easy way out and explain away the unexplainable with religion, mysticism, the supernatural etc.
I'll just write those off as things beyond the human intellect to figure out.[/QUOTE]
To be clear I wasn't talking about your viewpoint dmaul. I find your brand of skepticism refreshing.
However I will disagree with describing religion and spirituality as the easy way out. Try thinking of absolutely nothing for ten seconds, ironically there is nothing easy about it.
[quote name='punklivz']That's not it at all, I never said ALL of humanity. I just feel as though religion holds a huge role in a lot of peoples lives. I feel as it is needed in order to keep it from going chaotic. If it wasn't religion, it would be something else. There has to be SOMETHING to keep people in line (it's too easy to break laws, can't enforce them 100% of the time). There has to be that fear, and without it I believe it people wouldn't have anything to hold them back. I am not saying EVERYBODY, just the majority of people who are religiously religious. If my children decide they want to go to church I will support them.
People who are religious normally believe in morals AND afterlife consequences, thus keeping them in line. I am not saying that people who aren't religious, don't have any morals (LOOK AT ME)...[/QUOTE]
I get that.
I just don't get why you assume on average that people are lesser than you and we'd see an increase in crime and other immoral behavior with out religion.
You and I and millions of others live moral lives without it. Why are you so pessimistic about the ability of others to do the same? And so pessimistic that you think so many would do worse that we'd seen increases in crime etc.?
And again, it's the chicken-egg thing. You think religion gives people morals. I think it much more likely that people with morals are drawn to religion. Socialization is largely self selection--we choose to associated with people similar to ourselves.
A moral person is likely to be drawn to church (though plenty of moral people like you and I aren't) while immoral people are not as religious folk don't share their values etc. Thus you get a spurious correlation that being religious=more pro-social morals/values.
People who are religious normally believe in morals AND afterlife consequences, thus keeping them in line. I am not saying that people who aren't religious, don't have any morals (LOOK AT ME)...[/QUOTE]
I get that.
I just don't get why you assume on average that people are lesser than you and we'd see an increase in crime and other immoral behavior with out religion.
You and I and millions of others live moral lives without it. Why are you so pessimistic about the ability of others to do the same? And so pessimistic that you think so many would do worse that we'd seen increases in crime etc.?
And again, it's the chicken-egg thing. You think religion gives people morals. I think it much more likely that people with morals are drawn to religion. Socialization is largely self selection--we choose to associated with people similar to ourselves.
A moral person is likely to be drawn to church (though plenty of moral people like you and I aren't) while immoral people are not as religious folk don't share their values etc. Thus you get a spurious correlation that being religious=more pro-social morals/values.
[quote name='camoor']To be clear I wasn't talking about your viewpoint dmaul. I find your brand of skepticism refreshing.
However I will disagree with describing religion and spirituality as the easy way out. Try thinking of absolutely nothing for ten seconds, ironically there is nothing easy about it.[/QUOTE]
Of course, but that's not really what I meant.
I meant it's easier to just accept that god created the Earth, than to try to figure it out and/or to accept that us humans currently lack the intellectual ability to figure it out and may always lack that ability.
Or that it's easier to believe in an afterlife that will re-united us with our loved ones and allow us to live in some form forever, than to gather the courage to accept that we'll never see our deceased loved ones again and that we ourselves will someday simply cease to exist.
In those cases faith is re-assuring. While lack of it gives a feeling of inferiority in the first example, and fear in the second. Being reassured is "easier" than facing the "facts."
However I will disagree with describing religion and spirituality as the easy way out. Try thinking of absolutely nothing for ten seconds, ironically there is nothing easy about it.[/QUOTE]
Of course, but that's not really what I meant.
I meant it's easier to just accept that god created the Earth, than to try to figure it out and/or to accept that us humans currently lack the intellectual ability to figure it out and may always lack that ability.
Or that it's easier to believe in an afterlife that will re-united us with our loved ones and allow us to live in some form forever, than to gather the courage to accept that we'll never see our deceased loved ones again and that we ourselves will someday simply cease to exist.
In those cases faith is re-assuring. While lack of it gives a feeling of inferiority in the first example, and fear in the second. Being reassured is "easier" than facing the "facts."
[quote name='dmaul1114']I get that.
I just don't get why you assume on average that people are lesser than you and we'd see an increase in crime and other immoral behavior with out religion.
You and I and millions of others live moral lives without it. Why are you so pessimistic about the ability of others to do the same? And so pessimistic that you think so many would do worse that we'd seen increases in crime etc.?
And again, it's the chicken-egg thing. You think religion gives people morals. I think it much more likely that people with morals are drawn to religion. Socialization is largely self selection--we choose to associated with people similar to ourselves.
A moral person is likely to be drawn to church (though plenty of moral people like you and I aren't) while immoral people are not as religious folk don't share their values etc. Thus you get a spurious correlation that being religious=more pro-social morals/values.[/QUOTE]
I REALLY wish you would stop saying that I think others are lesser then me, please. I do NOT think that, I have had a crazy life... I would never think anyone is less then me, if not in fact the opposite (in some ways).
I do NOT think that people can't have morals without religion, and I do not think they go hand in hand. I just believe it keeps people in line, if there was NEVER religion, of course I would be obligated to think otherwise. I just honestly believe it is very important, and if someone came out tomorrow and said "I JUST FOUND THE TRUTH OF LIFE, AND DEATH AND THERE IS NOTHING" then it would turn chaotic. Just my thoughts.
I just don't get why you assume on average that people are lesser than you and we'd see an increase in crime and other immoral behavior with out religion.
You and I and millions of others live moral lives without it. Why are you so pessimistic about the ability of others to do the same? And so pessimistic that you think so many would do worse that we'd seen increases in crime etc.?
And again, it's the chicken-egg thing. You think religion gives people morals. I think it much more likely that people with morals are drawn to religion. Socialization is largely self selection--we choose to associated with people similar to ourselves.
A moral person is likely to be drawn to church (though plenty of moral people like you and I aren't) while immoral people are not as religious folk don't share their values etc. Thus you get a spurious correlation that being religious=more pro-social morals/values.[/QUOTE]
I REALLY wish you would stop saying that I think others are lesser then me, please. I do NOT think that, I have had a crazy life... I would never think anyone is less then me, if not in fact the opposite (in some ways).
I do NOT think that people can't have morals without religion, and I do not think they go hand in hand. I just believe it keeps people in line, if there was NEVER religion, of course I would be obligated to think otherwise. I just honestly believe it is very important, and if someone came out tomorrow and said "I JUST FOUND THE TRUTH OF LIFE, AND DEATH AND THERE IS NOTHING" then it would turn chaotic. Just my thoughts.
Then be more clear in your posts. Opinions are completely useless if one doesn't have a solid reason for having them.
You think crime etc. will go up with the downfall of religion. Yet you have confidence in raising your kids to be upstanding moral people without religion.
The two just don't mesh. If you can do it, why can't most other people? If most other people could, there'd be no increase in crime etc.
If you think you can, but think that most other people couldn't do it--then yes, you're indirectly putting others down by being skeptical about their ability to raise their kids to be moral people without religion while you can do it.
I'm not saying you're trying to look down on other people, just that it's implicit when you say you can raise moral kids without religion, but you think on average most others would fail to the exten that we'd see crime and other social illnesses increase.
You think crime etc. will go up with the downfall of religion. Yet you have confidence in raising your kids to be upstanding moral people without religion.
The two just don't mesh. If you can do it, why can't most other people? If most other people could, there'd be no increase in crime etc.
If you think you can, but think that most other people couldn't do it--then yes, you're indirectly putting others down by being skeptical about their ability to raise their kids to be moral people without religion while you can do it.
I'm not saying you're trying to look down on other people, just that it's implicit when you say you can raise moral kids without religion, but you think on average most others would fail to the exten that we'd see crime and other social illnesses increase.
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Capitalizt
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[quote name='dmaul1114']You're not going to find surveys with socially representative samples that find differences between religious folk and atheists on issues like crime, war etc. i.e. the types of moral issues that could ruin a society.[/QUOTE]
I haven't seen any surveys like that, but the prison population has been surveyed and I believe atheists only comprise .21% of inmates nationwide. http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
http://askville.amazon.com/Religion...ans-Muslims/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=8384184
That is far less than their representation in the general public (roughly 5-8%). The religious populations in prison however are roughly proportional to their numbers on the outside. So atheists either don't commit as many crimes as believers, or they are better at not getting caught.
I haven't seen any surveys like that, but the prison population has been surveyed and I believe atheists only comprise .21% of inmates nationwide. http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
http://askville.amazon.com/Religion...ans-Muslims/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=8384184
That is far less than their representation in the general public (roughly 5-8%). The religious populations in prison however are roughly proportional to their numbers on the outside. So atheists either don't commit as many crimes as believers, or they are better at not getting caught.
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[quote name='punklivz']That's not it at all, I never said ALL of humanity. I just feel as though religion holds a huge role in a lot of peoples lives. I feel as it is needed in order to keep it from going chaotic. If it wasn't religion, it would be something else. There has to be SOMETHING to keep people in line (it's too easy to break laws, can't enforce them 100% of the time). There has to be that fear, and without it I believe it people wouldn't have anything to hold them back. I am not saying EVERYBODY, just the majority of people who are religiously religious. If my children decide they want to go to church I will support them.
People who are religious normally believe in morals AND afterlife consequences, thus keeping them in line. I am not saying that people who aren't religious, don't have any morals (LOOK AT ME)...[/QUOTE]
I'm deathly curious, what's your status in terms of religion? I mean you're into Hemp, are you really into Organic and non-GMO as well?
I know you said you're not religious but that doesn't mean you don't have you don't subscribe to some sort of belief. I imagine from the way you talk you just don't want to shove it in someone else's face.
People who are religious normally believe in morals AND afterlife consequences, thus keeping them in line. I am not saying that people who aren't religious, don't have any morals (LOOK AT ME)...[/QUOTE]
I'm deathly curious, what's your status in terms of religion? I mean you're into Hemp, are you really into Organic and non-GMO as well?
I know you said you're not religious but that doesn't mean you don't have you don't subscribe to some sort of belief. I imagine from the way you talk you just don't want to shove it in someone else's face.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Then be more clear in your posts. Opinions are completely useless if one doesn't have a solid reason for having them.
You think crime etc. will go up with the downfall of religion. Yet you have confidence in raising your kids to be upstanding moral people without religion.
The two just don't mesh. If you can do it, why can't most other people? If most other people could, there'd be no increase in crime etc.
If you think you can, but think that most other people couldn't do it--then yes, you're indirectly putting others down by being skeptical about their ability to raise their kids to be moral people without religion while you can do it.[/QUOTE]
That's just it. I never said nobody can or can't do it. I am just saying that some people need religion in order to stay "good". I am not saying that ALL people can't be good without religion. I know people don't need it to be good. I know people can have morals without religion. I am not understanding why you guys are portraying that I said "People can't have morals without religion". I never said that, I don't believe that. I believe that iting keeps SOME PEOPLE in line. THOSE people who may NEED it, in order to stay GOOD people. Without that religion, they may go "bad"... I don't think in order to have morals you HAVE TO HAVE RELIGION, or I'd be religious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..... I'm gettin annoyed that people are saying I'm saying this, and I'm NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM NOT SAYING THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS RELIGION, just saying that WITHOUT IT the crime rate would be up. If you do not believe me, think about why religion came about in the first place. ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They needed some order among the people, aside from Man laws. [Which is another opinion of mine ]
You think crime etc. will go up with the downfall of religion. Yet you have confidence in raising your kids to be upstanding moral people without religion.
The two just don't mesh. If you can do it, why can't most other people? If most other people could, there'd be no increase in crime etc.
If you think you can, but think that most other people couldn't do it--then yes, you're indirectly putting others down by being skeptical about their ability to raise their kids to be moral people without religion while you can do it.[/QUOTE]
That's just it. I never said nobody can or can't do it. I am just saying that some people need religion in order to stay "good". I am not saying that ALL people can't be good without religion. I know people don't need it to be good. I know people can have morals without religion. I am not understanding why you guys are portraying that I said "People can't have morals without religion". I never said that, I don't believe that. I believe that it
ing keeps SOME PEOPLE in line. THOSE people who may NEED it, in order to stay GOOD people. Without that religion, they may go "bad"... I don't think in order to have morals you HAVE TO HAVE RELIGION, or I'd be religious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..... I'm gettin annoyed that people are saying I'm saying this, and I'm NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I AM NOT SAYING THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS RELIGION, just saying that WITHOUT IT the crime rate would be up. If you do not believe me, think about why religion came about in the first place. ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They needed some order among the people, aside from Man laws. [Which is another opinion of mine
]
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[quote name='LuKazKane']Why do Atheist care so much in something they don't believe? If you deny the fact any gods or goddess exist, then what's big deal?[/QUOTE]
It's really just curiosity, at least for me. I was raised Christian myself so I always find it interesting talking to people about what drives their faith.
It's really just curiosity, at least for me. I was raised Christian myself so I always find it interesting talking to people about what drives their faith.
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Of course, but that's not really what I meant.
I meant it's easier to just accept that god created the Earth, than to try to figure it out and/or to accept that us humans currently lack the intellectual ability to figure it out and may always lack that ability.
Or that it's easier to believe in an afterlife that will re-united us with our loved ones and allow us to live in some form forever, than to gather the courage to accept that we'll never see our deceased loved ones again and that we ourselves will someday simply cease to exist.
In those cases faith is re-assuring. While lack of it gives a feeling of inferiority in the first example, and fear in the second. Being reassured is "easier" than facing the "facts."[/QUOTE]
Yeah but again you're saying religion but really talking about contemporary American Christianity.
Creationism and heaven are easy targets, they are certainly convenient and frankly I don't believe in them either. Especially creationism - we already had enough scientific theories a century ago to make this concept downright laughable. However I don't think these concepts fully characterize Christianity (I don't get Christianity either and I'm not going to bother trying to discuss something I don't understand)
It's too easy to reduce all religion and spirituality as filler for things we don't understand. Personally I think spirituality could be something that explains the world in a way that contemporary science doesn't or can't. A simple example - one of academia's dirty secrets is that Newton was also an alchemist, however I don't think that's so bad. I bet Newton would have been a chemist if the science had progressed to that point.
Regardless, I think you guys will enjoy this cartoon:
I meant it's easier to just accept that god created the Earth, than to try to figure it out and/or to accept that us humans currently lack the intellectual ability to figure it out and may always lack that ability.
Or that it's easier to believe in an afterlife that will re-united us with our loved ones and allow us to live in some form forever, than to gather the courage to accept that we'll never see our deceased loved ones again and that we ourselves will someday simply cease to exist.
In those cases faith is re-assuring. While lack of it gives a feeling of inferiority in the first example, and fear in the second. Being reassured is "easier" than facing the "facts."
[/QUOTE]Yeah but again you're saying religion but really talking about contemporary American Christianity.
Creationism and heaven are easy targets, they are certainly convenient and frankly I don't believe in them either. Especially creationism - we already had enough scientific theories a century ago to make this concept downright laughable. However I don't think these concepts fully characterize Christianity (I don't get Christianity either and I'm not going to bother trying to discuss something I don't understand)
It's too easy to reduce all religion and spirituality as filler for things we don't understand. Personally I think spirituality could be something that explains the world in a way that contemporary science doesn't or can't. A simple example - one of academia's dirty secrets is that Newton was also an alchemist, however I don't think that's so bad. I bet Newton would have been a chemist if the science had progressed to that point.
Regardless, I think you guys will enjoy this cartoon:
[quote name='Sarang01']I'm deathly curious, what's your status in terms of religion? I mean you're into Hemp, are you really into Organic and non-GMO as well?
I know you said you're not religious but that doesn't mean you don't have you don't subscribe to some sort of belief. I imagine from the way you talk you just don't want to shove it in someone else's face.[/QUOTE]
Personally I believe that any and every religion is right, and we'll leave it at that.
I do try and go organic as possible, my grandfather grows all my fruit/veggies. I do not like eating any GMO, and try and avoid it for my children as well. I don't even eat beef. I do not try and preach my beliefs, but I do like a good debate.
I know you said you're not religious but that doesn't mean you don't have you don't subscribe to some sort of belief. I imagine from the way you talk you just don't want to shove it in someone else's face.[/QUOTE]
Personally I believe that any and every religion is right, and we'll leave it at that.
I do try and go organic as possible, my grandfather grows all my fruit/veggies. I do not like eating any GMO, and try and avoid it for my children as well. I don't even eat beef. I do not try and preach my beliefs, but I do like a good debate.
[quote name='punklivz']That's just it. I never said nobody can or can't do it. I am just saying that some people need religion in order to stay "good". I am not saying that ALL people can't be good without religion. I know people don't need it to be good. I know people can have morals without religion. I am not understanding why you guys are portraying that I said "People can't have morals without religion". I never said that, I don't believe that. I believe that it ing keeps SOME PEOPLE in line. THOSE people who may NEED it, in order to stay GOOD people. Without that religion, they may go "bad"... I don't think in order to have morals you HAVE TO HAVE RELIGION, or I'd be religious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..... I'm gettin annoyed that people are saying I'm saying this, and I'm NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM NOT SAYING THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS RELIGION, just saying that WITHOUT IT the crime rate would be up. If you do not believe me, think about why religion came about in the first place. ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They needed some order among the people, aside from Man laws. [Which is another opinion of mine ][/QUOTE]
Sorry, it's just faulty and self-centered logic to think you can raise moral kids without religion, but that the majority of others would fail to such an extent that crime would increase. There's no way to talk yourself around that.
And religion came around long before organized civilizations as religion goes clear back to cavemen worshiping the sun, tribes praying for rain etc.. Faith, spirituality etc. came about as ways to explain the unexplained, to cope with death of loved ones etc. That was the origin of religious believe, not control.
Governments then created ORGANIZED religion to control people, I'll give you that. But I'll disagree that it's uber effective.
I think taking all the money that gets donated to religion and using it to build up schools, fight poverty and all the other things that destroy families and give rise to anti-social sub cultures etc. would reduce crime, rather than lead to an increase due to the end of organized religion and belief in after life.
Again, pretty much ALL the research shows people are short minded and seldom give much thought to their chances of being caught and punished in the present for their actions, so it's pretty absurd to think that some 20 year old is going to think about the chance of burning in some mythical fire when they die before committing a crime etc.
The notion that religion=morals and social control, and that both would decline without religion is just a myth religion has used for centuries to help justify the existence of organized religion and the importance of converting non-believers.
But that's enough, as we're just going in circles at this point. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to my opinion of you because of it!
ing keeps SOME PEOPLE in line. THOSE people who may NEED it, in order to stay GOOD people. Without that religion, they may go "bad"... I don't think in order to have morals you HAVE TO HAVE RELIGION, or I'd be religious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..... I'm gettin annoyed that people are saying I'm saying this, and I'm NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I AM NOT SAYING THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS RELIGION, just saying that WITHOUT IT the crime rate would be up. If you do not believe me, think about why religion came about in the first place. ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They needed some order among the people, aside from Man laws. [Which is another opinion of mine
][/QUOTE]Sorry, it's just faulty and self-centered logic to think you can raise moral kids without religion, but that the majority of others would fail to such an extent that crime would increase. There's no way to talk yourself around that.
And religion came around long before organized civilizations as religion goes clear back to cavemen worshiping the sun, tribes praying for rain etc.. Faith, spirituality etc. came about as ways to explain the unexplained, to cope with death of loved ones etc. That was the origin of religious believe, not control.
Governments then created ORGANIZED religion to control people, I'll give you that. But I'll disagree that it's uber effective.
I think taking all the money that gets donated to religion and using it to build up schools, fight poverty and all the other things that destroy families and give rise to anti-social sub cultures etc. would reduce crime, rather than lead to an increase due to the end of organized religion and belief in after life.
Again, pretty much ALL the research shows people are short minded and seldom give much thought to their chances of being caught and punished in the present for their actions, so it's pretty absurd to think that some 20 year old is going to think about the chance of burning in some mythical fire when they die before committing a crime etc.
The notion that religion=morals and social control, and that both would decline without religion is just a myth religion has used for centuries to help justify the existence of organized religion and the importance of converting non-believers.
But that's enough, as we're just going in circles at this point. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to my opinion of you because of it!
Now on the other side of my argument, if there were NEVER religion, I don't think the world would be anymore chaotic then it is now. Now does that make sense? I am just stressing that if religion were proven wrong RIGHT NOW, it would become a hell on earth.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Sorry, it's just faulty and self-centered logic to think you can raise moral kids without religion, but that the majority of others would fail to such an extent that crime would increase. There's no way to talk yourself around that.
And religion came around long before organized civilizations as religion goes clear back to cavemen worshiping the sun, tribes praying for rain etc.. Faith, spirituality etc. came about as ways to explain the unexplained, to cope with death of loved ones etc. That was the origin of religious believe, not control.
Governments then created ORGANIZED religion to control people, I'll give you that. But I'll disagree that it's uber effective.
I think taking all the money that gets donated to religion and using it to build up schools, fight poverty and all the other things that destroy families and give rise to anti-social sub cultures etc. would reduce crime, rather than lead to an increase due to the end of organized religion and belief in after life.
Again, pretty much ALL the research shows people are short minded and seldom give much thought to their chances of being caught and punished in the present for their actions, so it's pretty absurd to think that some 20 year old is going to think about the chance of burning in some mythical fire when they die before committing a crime etc.
The notion that religion=morals and social control, and that both would decline without religion is just a myth religion has used for centuries to help justify the existence of organized religion and the importance of converting non-believers.
But that's enough, as we're just going in circles at this point. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to my opinion of you because of it![/QUOTE]
AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING RAISING THEM LIKE THIS. I AM SAYING IF RELIGION WAS TO BE TAKEN AWAY AT THIS MOMENT. NOT SAYING THAT I CAN RAISE MY KIDS BETTER THEN ANYONE ELSE WITH OR WITHOUT RELIGION.
but you are right, lets disagree to agree... err u know
And religion came around long before organized civilizations as religion goes clear back to cavemen worshiping the sun, tribes praying for rain etc.. Faith, spirituality etc. came about as ways to explain the unexplained, to cope with death of loved ones etc. That was the origin of religious believe, not control.
Governments then created ORGANIZED religion to control people, I'll give you that. But I'll disagree that it's uber effective.
I think taking all the money that gets donated to religion and using it to build up schools, fight poverty and all the other things that destroy families and give rise to anti-social sub cultures etc. would reduce crime, rather than lead to an increase due to the end of organized religion and belief in after life.
Again, pretty much ALL the research shows people are short minded and seldom give much thought to their chances of being caught and punished in the present for their actions, so it's pretty absurd to think that some 20 year old is going to think about the chance of burning in some mythical fire when they die before committing a crime etc.
The notion that religion=morals and social control, and that both would decline without religion is just a myth religion has used for centuries to help justify the existence of organized religion and the importance of converting non-believers.
But that's enough, as we're just going in circles at this point. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to my opinion of you because of it!
[/QUOTE]AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING RAISING THEM LIKE THIS. I AM SAYING IF RELIGION WAS TO BE TAKEN AWAY AT THIS MOMENT. NOT SAYING THAT I CAN RAISE MY KIDS BETTER THEN ANYONE ELSE WITH OR WITHOUT RELIGION.
but you are right, lets disagree to agree... err u know
bread's done