Christmas spirit waning as you get older?

[quote name='punqsux']wow...i could swear sweeney and i put this topic to rest last ngiht...anyways id like to thank dz for backing up my position a bit

as for lootr's aplology, it was a start...a pitiful one. you can apologize for the name calling you did, but not for the personal attacks on my grammar, nor putting words in my mouth after i declared the issues with you to be moot?

what a half assed shaq-fuing apology. ive been using a bit of self restraint in this thread, because i didnt want to offend anyone else in this thread but you, and im sure if i had gone all out, most would be offended. to put an end to the matter.

i again say shaq-fu you, that youre a very poor excuse for a person, and you have to worry about more than apologizing to me to correct this problem.[/quote]


Well, I won't hold that against you, all I can say again is sorry. Sorry for the tone of the discussion and sorry for some of the words, but I don't think I need to apogize for my views, nor do you need to scale back your opinions. I never through the thread 'judged'' you or said anything like.. cause you don't believe your going to hell, or just die or whatever. So you're an atheist... I don't like that but I'm not gonna hunt you down and shove a bible in your mouth, but I will argue against your point of view (as you were arguing against what I believe, and that is what I took your first posts as. Not that you were saying Christianity is stupid, but that you feel the religious thought shouldn't be marked as national holidays (nor celebrated secularly)

If you want to go off on me, please do so, I'd rather hear what you think than not.


p.s. I'm so glad to hear you have me all figured out as a person through 5 minutes of arguement.
 
Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.
 
[quote name='camoor']Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.[/quote]

BTW - Not all Christians celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25. There is a fairly large number of Christians, specifically Eastern Orthodox Christians who celebrate Christmas on January 7.
 
[quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='camoor']Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.[/quote]

BTW - Not all Christians celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25. There is a fairly large number of Christians, specifically Eastern Orthodox Christians who celebrate Christmas on January 7.[/quote]

Yes, that would be closer to the time that was mapped out in the stars by the three magi, right?

BTW, how do fundamentalists feel about astrology and magic, considering that their central religious figure was first discovered by three magicians who were following the signs of the heavens?
 
[quote name='camoor']Yes, that would be closer to the time that was mapped out in the stars by the three magi, right?

BTW, how do fundamentalists feel about astrology and magic, considering that their central religious figure was first discovered by three magicians who were following the signs of the heavens?[/quote]

Well I'm a Christian but not a fundamentalist.
But - I do have some doubts about when the Three Kings actually showed up to see Jesus. It was possibly much later after the Nativity.

The star that led them to Jesus was by Divine Intervention not astrology.
But if you're a non-believer then I guess it's astrology. And as far as the 3 Kings a.k.a. 3 Magi being MAGIcians...well I don't think so.
 
[quote name='camoor']Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.[/quote]

Well, duh.
Most religions/countries will adopt the symbology of the conquered nations so that the change from worshiping the land gods in a polytheistic society to the worship of a diety in a monothesistic society is less abrupt.
I'm not so dense as to suggest that never happened. Just about every conquering nation with it's own relgion has done this, as it helps placate the masses.

You have to remember.. religion is something perfect existing in an imperfect world, leading to most of the ills existing in it...
imperfect clergy, tyrants using the church as a cover for thier own desires for wealth/power, etc.
 
[quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='camoor']Yes, that would be closer to the time that was mapped out in the stars by the three magi, right?

BTW, how do fundamentalists feel about astrology and magic, considering that their central religious figure was first discovered by three magicians who were following the signs of the heavens?[/quote]

Well I'm a Christian but not a fundamentalist.
But - I do have some doubts about when the Three Kings actually showed up to see Jesus. It was possibly much later after the Nativity.

The star that led them to Jesus was by Divine Intervention not astrology.
But if you're a non-believer then I guess it's astrology. And as far as the 3 Kings a.k.a. 3 Magi being MAGIcians...well I don't think so.[/quote]

Yup, you have 3 wise men making a dangerous pilgrimage in the desert using the stars (or another type of unusual celestial event / supernatural light) to find the next great leader of the next big religion, a leader who will perform many miraculous mystical feats such as walking on water and coming back to life after seemingly dying, doesn't sound like magic at all to me :roll:

What kind of wise men would have taken signs from the heavens so seriously? Surely we couldn't taint the birth of the lord by having Zorastrian pilgrims present. Before the one true god? What blasphemy, they were kings I tell ya :wink:



*cough*Zoroasterians*cough*
 
[quote name='camoor']Yup, you have 3 wise men making a dangerous pilgrimage in the desert using the stars (or another type of unusual celestial event / supernatural light) to find the next great leader of the next big religion, a leader who will perform many miraculous mystical feats such as walking on water and coming back to life after seemingly dying, doesn't sound like magic at all to me :roll:[/quote]

Well, actually it was one star and it was an unusual celestial event with supernatural light. :D

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

As far as the walking on water and other magical "tricks" performed by Jesus, there is no reason why you should believe that any of these "illusions" were miracles. Why should you, in Christianity we have our own "Doubting Thomases "


[quote name='camoor']What kind of wise men would have taken signs from the heavens so seriously? Surely we couldn't taint the birth of the lord by having Zorastrian pilgrims present. Before the one true god? What blasphemy, they were kings I tell ya :wink:

*cough*Zoroasterians*cough*[/quote]

You got me there about "What kind of wise men would have......" I wasn't there and just don't know.
Don't think there were any Zoroastrians there as that religion was not founded until the 6th century in Persia. :wink:
 
[quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='camoor']Yup, you have 3 wise men making a dangerous pilgrimage in the desert using the stars (or another type of unusual celestial event / supernatural light) to find the next great leader of the next big religion, a leader who will perform many miraculous mystical feats such as walking on water and coming back to life after seemingly dying, doesn't sound like magic at all to me :roll:[/quote]

Well, actually it was one star and it was an unusual celestial event with supernatural light. :D

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

As far as the walking on water and other magical "tricks" performed by Jesus, there is no reason why you should believe that any of these "illusions" were miracles. Why should you, in Christianity we have our own "Doubting Thomases "


[quote name='camoor']What kind of wise men would have taken signs from the heavens so seriously? Surely we couldn't taint the birth of the lord by having Zorastrian pilgrims present. Before the one true god? What blasphemy, they were kings I tell ya :wink:

*cough*Zoroasterians*cough*[/quote]

You got me there about "What kind of wise men would have......" I wasn't there and just don't know.
Don't think there were any Zoroastrians there as that religion was not founded until the 6th century in Persia. :wink:[/quote]

No, Zoroastrianism was around long before Jesus. You must be thinking of something else.
 
Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

I'd have thought it was Peter, the "rock" upon which the Church was built, as well as the first Pope.
 
[quote name='jmcc'][quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='camoor']Yup, you have 3 wise men making a dangerous pilgrimage in the desert using the stars (or another type of unusual celestial event / supernatural light) to find the next great leader of the next big religion, a leader who will perform many miraculous mystical feats such as walking on water and coming back to life after seemingly dying, doesn't sound like magic at all to me :roll:[/quote]

Well, actually it was one star and it was an unusual celestial event with supernatural light. :D

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

As far as the walking on water and other magical "tricks" performed by Jesus, there is no reason why you should believe that any of these "illusions" were miracles. Why should you, in Christianity we have our own "Doubting Thomases "


[quote name='camoor']What kind of wise men would have taken signs from the heavens so seriously? Surely we couldn't taint the birth of the lord by having Zorastrian pilgrims present. Before the one true god? What blasphemy, they were kings I tell ya :wink:

*cough*Zoroasterians*cough*[/quote]

You got me there about "What kind of wise men would have......" I wasn't there and just don't know.
Don't think there were any Zoroastrians there as that religion was not founded until the 6th century in Persia. :wink:[/quote]

No, Zoroastrianism was around long before Jesus. You must be thinking of something else.[/quote]

That's correct. Most scholars believe that Zoroastrianism grew considerably in the 6th century BC. BC as in "Before Christ". So there were plenty of Zorastrians in Persia at the time of the birth of Christ.

Source
 
[quote name='JSweeney']Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

I'd have thought it was Peter, the "rock" upon which the Church was built, as well as the first Pope.[/quote]

Wasn't it really Charlemagne who charted the course for Christianity?
 
[quote name='JSweeney']Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

I'd have thought it was Peter, the "rock" upon which the Church was built, as well as the first Pope.[/quote]

Yeah I've always had problems with that "rock" thing. I kinda think Jesus was speaking figuratively as in, "You an apostle and you as apostles will be the rock upon which I will build my church". I dunno, I was brought up Catholic but still have a problem with that even though Peter was "considered" the first Pope.

The apostles were Jews and Peter wanted to keep the followers of Christ in Judaism and did not want to go off and form a new religion. Sort of like keep it a sect of Judaism.

Saul who never met Jesus in life (and later became Paul) was charged with the duty, by some Rabbis, of seeking out and persecuting Christians. He did a great job too until he had some kind of revelation. He then became a devout follower of Christ and an important missionary.

He met with Peter and insisted they break away from the Jewish faith. Peter fought the idea but in the end Paul won out. And if it wasn't for Paul Christianity today would be a sect in the Jewish faith.
 
[quote name='jmcc']No, Zoroastrianism was around long before Jesus. You must be thinking of something else.[/quote]

Hey when you're "Right" you're "Right" :!:
And in this case - You're "Right" and I'm "Wrong" :oops:

Seems I failed to notice the 6th Century "B.C." part.
 
[quote name='JSweeney'][quote name='camoor']Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.[/quote]

Well, duh.
Most religions/countries will adopt the symbology of the conquered nations so that the change from worshiping the land gods in a polytheistic society to the worship of a diety in a monothesistic society is less abrupt.
I'm not so dense as to suggest that never happened. Just about every conquering nation with it's own relgion has done this, as it helps placate the masses.

You have to remember.. religion is something perfect existing in an imperfect world, leading to most of the ills existing in it...
imperfect clergy, tyrants using the church as a cover for thier own desires for wealth/power, etc.[/quote]

Yes, it's a comforting thought that at several times in the past, Christianity was willing to make concessions to a vocal minority. That's what I find particularly odious about this administration, they think that the Christian God's law is perfect and therefore Government law should be the same as the Christian God's law.

On topic however, I think Xmas has become a corporate holiday more then anything else. The message I see the most is "buy! buy! buy!". To be honest, I'd rather see alot more of the "Peace on Earth" angle. That's what it is to me, a chance to feast and celebrate friends/family in the midst of trying times.
 
[quote name='camoor']On topic however, I think Xmas has become a corporate holiday more then anything else. The message I see the most is "buy! buy! buy!". To be honest, I'd rather see alot more of the "Peace on Earth" angle. That's what it is to me, a chance to feast and celebrate friends/family in the midst of trying times.[/quote]

Holy smokes LORD, we may have a conversion here :wink:
I agree 100% with the above. That's exactly what bums me out at Christmas. it's all about corporate profits.

And I'll bet you between now and Christmas more people will give and be the recipient of the "Finger" than at any time during the year.

I second the "Peace on Earth" angle and the friends and family thing.
Phew! I hate to break it to you, but you have the true Christmas spirit.
Ooops! I mean the true Xmas spirit.
beerchug.gif
 
Yes, it's a comforting thought that at several times in the past, Christianity was willing to make concessions to a vocal minority.
That's what I find particularly odious about this administration, they think that the Christian God's law is perfect and therefore Government law should be the same as the Christian God's law.

That is disturbing, because even different sects of the Christian Church disagree on many points, hence the break between Prodestant and Catholic.


On topic however, I think Xmas has become a corporate holiday more then anything else.

Xmas, yes.
That's why I don't like people trying to refer to the Christian festival of Christmas as Xmas. But, that point had been discussed to death earlier in the thread.


The message I see the most is "buy! buy! buy!". To be honest, I'd rather see alot more of the "Peace on Earth" angle. That's what it is to me, a chance to feast and celebrate friends/family in the midst of trying times.

Well, when you remove the religious basis from a religous holiday, it's kind of hard to keep it being corrupted by the most influental or powerful (it this case, corporations.)
 
[quote name='"JSweeney']Xmas, yes.
That's why I don't like people trying to refer to the Christian festival of Christmas as Xmas. But, that point had been discussed to death earlier in the thread.[/quote]

I see your point, but I was trying to say there's a figurative celebration occurring at the same time as Christ's Birthday Anniversary, and it is a feast that's dedicated to enduring life at the time of the winter solstice. We're just glad that we are alive, we still have our life and our family, and that Spring is only a month and a half away. I really think people pick up on this, making this time of the year which would otherwise be depressing (less daylight, lower produce quality, getting colder) much more bearable, enjoyable even.

This meaning of Xmas has been hijacked by the corporations.

Not that the corporations have won. Every time a rotten materialistic movie like "Jingle all the Way" or "Kristmas with the Kranks" bombs, an angel (faerie/nymph/kami) gets it's wings :wink:
 
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