EGM september - Lair (and everything else) panned, Persona 3 gotm

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Apossum

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copied and pasted from gamefaqs, don't shoot the messenger if these are fake:

lair: 6.0, 5.5, 5.0
mario strikers charged: 7.5, 7.5, 7.5
all pro football: 6.5, 6.5, 7.0
ncaa football 2008: 8.5, 9.0, 8.5
stuntman ignition: 7.5, 7.5, 7.0
dynasty warriors gundam: 6.5, 5.5, 5.0
nascar 08: 6.5, 6.5, 6.5
blue dragon: 6.5, 7.5, 6.5
persona 3: 8.5, 9.5, 9.5 game of the month
guitar hero rocks the 80s: 7.5, 6.0, 6.0
jeanne d'arc: 8.0, 7.0, 8.0
picross ds: 8.5, 8.0, 8.0
brain age 2: 8.0, 7.0, 6.0
heroes of mana: 7.5, 5.5, 6.0
luminous arc: 5.5, 6.0, 6.0
---


EGM went on a freaking rampage this month, apparently.
 
I kinda figure Lair will suck. It's more of a 'cool concept' kinda game. The only thing about it that made it so hyped was the whole "you fly a dragon!" thing.
 
I knew it. I fucking KNEW Lair was a piece of shit. I said it a million times before, it looks like a generic piece of shit with awful graphics and gameplay. Drakengard was crap, too, why would moving it to the PS3 and a Western developer fix that?

God, I hope the other reviews and public reaction is as bad. It's a tentpole PS3 game, and I called it as a piece of shit. Awesome.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']I knew it. I fucking KNEW Lair was a piece of shit. I said it a million times before, it looks like a generic piece of shit with awful graphics and gameplay. Drakengard was crap, too, why would moving it to the PS3 and a Western developer fix that?

God, I hope the other reviews and public reaction is horrible. It's a tentpole PS3 game, and I called it as a piece of shit. Awesome.[/quote]

Troll Much?

Anyone that says lair's graphics look like shit is an idiot.
 
I was trying to be optimistic about it. I never liked anything that Factor 5 did before and didn't think the game would amount to much, but I was hoping they'd prove me wrong here and... they didn't. So yeah... my next PS3 game will hopefully be Heavenly Sword. I hope that one actually pans out. The demo was good at least...
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']I knew it. I fucking KNEW Lair was a piece of shit. I said it a million times before, it looks like a generic piece of shit with awful graphics and gameplay. Drakengard was crap, too, why would moving it to the PS3 and a Western developer fix that?

God, I hope the other reviews and public reaction is as bad. It's a tentpole PS3 game, and I called it as a piece of shit. Awesome.[/QUOTE]

riiiight.. *steps away slowly and cautiously*




I've had kind of wait and see (and jaw drop at the graphics) approach on this one...and it wouldn't be the first time EGM has panned a game that others have liked, so I'm still waiting and seeing. not that i'd buy it without a demo anyway
 
Well, Lair went from being a day one to an afterthought weekend rental.. man. I mean, it looked shallow, but still.

Also.. no Bioshock review?..
 
ncaa 2008 shouldnt be getting higher then 6/10 across the board.
That game BLOWS.. I HATE EA! they always ruin my games.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']lol, whatever you say.

It might not be total shit exactly, I concede that, but I'd hardly place it near the top of the graphical heap.[/QUOTE]


that's nowhere near total shit. please stop trolling.
 
I'm pretty disappointed in the scores for Lair and Blue Dragon, as those were two games I was looking forward to. I kind of knew it'd happen though, since the Blue Dragon demo was crap and Lair hasn't exactly been garnering glowing previews.

For the record, I wouldn't place *too* much into EGM's reviews. For a long time now, they seem to be giving really harsh reviews to decent/good games just to try to come off as hard-asses. Baten Kaitos Origins is not a 4.5/10, like one reviewer scored it. Still, I can save the ~$45 I had for my Lair pre-order and use it for one of the many great games coming out this year for all three systems.

It's also great to see Persona 3 score well. I try not to buy too many JRPG's anymore, but this is a must-have for me now. Ugh, now there's a must-own PS2 game on top of all the next-gen offerings. At least it'll run on my PS3. ;)
 
for some odd reason, It was in the back of my mind that lair wasn't going to hold up being that great.

blue dragon's score was predictable. I knew it wouldn't fare well here in the states.

persona 3's review looks really good. I'm becoming more and more interested in that game.

and dynasty warrior gundam, I could really care less about it's reviews, I'm going to buy it anyway, because it's freaking gundam!
 
[quote name='Apossum']that's nowhere near total shit. please stop trolling.[/quote]

Yes please.

First you take an image from an early build of the game and say that it looks like crap.

Why dont you take your blantant xbox fanboyism somewhere else

l_ki_lair16.jpg


That look like crap to you?
 
Blue Dragon's score is what it is because it's nothing new. Same old shit, new console new dev. For RPGs(at least eastern ones) to score high anymore, they really need to do something for the genre or have an outstanding story/characters.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Dude are you serious?!?

This screenshot is shit![/QUOTE]



I'm nitpicky as hell and I'm not seeing the "shit" in that pic. for one thing, you can't tell anything about explosions from still shots. but I'm done with argument already, so...carry on
 
Wha, they're magazine reviews. Are all of you used to making decisions sight unseen based on what other people tell you to think?
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Dude are you serious?!?

This screenshot is shit![/QUOTE]

I think I can find one or two instances of any 'graphically impressive' game and claim it looks like shit. Yes Lair looks like shit in the picture, but, seeing it in motion will give you a much better representation of the graphics, rather than taking one single instance, and basing the entire game on it.

With that said, I'm pretty disappointed with its scores. It seemed like an interesting game, but, with it's unique style, I was definitely going to rent or play the demo (If we get one) before buying. I will still play it before deciding, but it seems like this is something I'll pass on. Even if it got all 9s, I would still be skeptical about it, seeing as how the gameplay seems like something I wouldn't enjoy.
 
[quote name='Apossum']
lair: 6.0, 5.5, 5.0
blue dragon: 6.5, 7.5, 6.5
guitar hero rocks the 80s: 7.5, 6.0, 6.0
[/quote]
:shock: ouch! i hope the scores are fake b/c those are the games i'm looking forward to playing :lol:
 
EGM is a gaggle of cunts pretending to be the "tgrch bearers" of the western gaming front because they carbon copied Famitsu's format.

I call bullshit on EGM's reviews. They scored NCAA 08 1.5 points too high. And they underrated APF2k8.
 
[quote name='InuFaye']
l_ki_lair16.jpg


That look like crap to you?[/QUOTE]

Kinda, yeah. Not much going on in that shot, and muddy-ass background doesn't help. And what the hell is going on with that HUD?!?

[quote name='dpatel']Yes Lair looks like shit in the picture, but, seeing it in motion will give you a much better representation of the graphics[/QUOTE]
Motion Blur™, making half-assed graphics look amazing, since 2001.

I've seen Lair moving. It looks lame as hell to me. Watching the dragons walk around bashing soldiers looked laughable. 2-D tufts of grass, for god's sake. Just LOOK AT THE GROUND AND FOLIAGE. Seriously, it's awful. Deny that, go ahead. Tell me that ground looks good. And dcripted events. Yawn. And in a friggin DRAGON game, you'd think they'd come up with fire effects better than the ones on PS2. And the appearant complete lack of lighting doesn't help things at all, either. I mean, seriously, you'd think that, logically, this tall tower should be casting some sort of shadow in some direction. Sorry, I don't think it looks much more than a little above average.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Kinda, yeah. Not much going on in that shot, and muddy-ass background doesn't help. And what the hell is going on with that HUD?!?[/QUOTE]
HUD is showing different attacks for you to do...I think it shows up when its a dragon vs dragon battle or something.

And the background could possibly be mud or water...so yeah...
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Motion Blur™, making half-assed graphics look amazing, since 2001.

I've seen Lair moving. It looks lame as hell to me. Watching the dragons walk around bashing soldiers looked laughable. 2-D tufts of grass, for god's sake. Scripted events. Yawn. And in a friggin DRAGON game, you'd think they'd come up with fire effects better than the ones on PS2. Sorry, I don't think it looks much more than a little above average.[/QUOTE]

That's fine if you feel that way. Personally, I disagree with you. Sure it isn't perfect, as you pointed out, but the sheer scale of the game impresses me quite a bit. But, that screen that you put in the topic was definitely a very poor representation of the game, and that's all I was getting at. If, after looking at more screens and videos, you still think the game looks like shit, that's your opinion. Aside from the overabundance of the dull brownish color, and think the game looks fantastic.
 
It sounds to me like you are disregarding the size of the actual environments in the game, and the amount of action that is going on at once. I get the same feeling, looking at this, that I did when Oblivion was first revealed. Take any screenshot of Oblivion, and it looks like complete crap for a next-gen game, but the size, amount of interactivity, etc. made it one of the first next-gen games to really 'wow' me. Same goes for this.
 
[quote name='dpatel']That's fine if you feel that way. Personally, I disagree with you. Sure it isn't perfect, as you pointed out, but the sheer scale of the game impresses me quite a bit.[/quote]
Please re-read my post, I have some more examples I want reactions on.

[quote name='dpatel']But, that screen that you put in the topic was definitely a very poor representation of the game, and that's all I was getting at.[/quote]
Hey, Sony and Factor 5 chose that shot to represent their game, not me.

[quote name='dpatel']If, after looking at more screens and videos, you still think the game looks like shit, that's your opinion. Aside from the overabundance of the dull brownish color, and think the game looks fantastic.[/QUOTE]
Again, please check my new examples.
 
[quote name='dack']No one should be listenting to ANYTHING EGM says, they are an awful, awful magazine![/QUOTE]

Apparently Gamepro gave it a 3.75/5.0, which, on a 10 point scale, translates to a 7.5. I don't have proof of this either, just going off of what was said in the Lair thread on the PS3 board.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Please re-read my post, I have some more examples I want reactions on.[/QUOTE]

I've seen your examples, and, like I said, you are disregarding the sheer size of the game. Obviously it isn't going to look as good as something like Gears of War up close. I guess, what I am trying to say is that, while the game isn't graphically impressive, it is very technically impressive.
 
[quote name='dpatel']It sounds to me like you are disregarding the size of the actual environments in the game, and the amount of action that is going on at once. I get the same feeling, looking at this, that I did when Oblivion was first revealed. Take any screenshot of Oblivion, and it looks like complete crap for a next-gen game, but the size, amount of interactivity, etc. made it one of the first next-gen games to really 'wow' me. Same goes for this.[/QUOTE]
So, gee, I thought that (incoming corporate bullshit lie talk) "the power of Blu-Ray and the Cell processor" would totally remove all restrictions on game developers and blah blah infinite power blah blah supercomputer blah blah blah. I don't care how big it is, there are no excuses for it to look like that. And what, we've got a bunch of low-poly cannon-fodder soldiers that have character models straight out of a PS2 game? That don't appear to have self-shadowing or any other taxing details? And having a bunch of those is supposed to excuse everything else looking like balls. Uh huh.

[quote name='dpatel']I've seen your examples, and, like I said, you are disregarding the sheer size of the game. Obviously it isn't going to look as good as something like Gears of War up close. I guess, what I am trying to say is that, while the game isn't graphically impressive, it is very technically impressive.[/QUOTE]
Please, illustrate the scale for me.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']So, gee, I thought that (incoming corporate bullshit lie talk) "the power of Blu-Ray and the Cell processor" would totally remove all restriction on game developers and blah blah infinite blah blah supercomputer blah blah blah. I don't care how big it is, there are no excuses for it to look like that. And what, we've got a bunch of low-poly cannon-fodder soldiers that have character models straight out of a PS2 game? That don't appear to have self-shadowing or any other taxing details? And having a bunch of those is supposed to excuse everything else looking like balls.


Please, illustrate the scale for me.[/QUOTE]

You clearly don't know much about game development, and blaming these faults on some hype (which we all know is complete BS) is laughable.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']


Please, illustrate the scale for me.[/QUOTE]
Courtesy of Dallow from the LAIR thread

[quote name='dallow']This screen was posted on Neo Gaf.

It's interesting because he noted that all the videos and screens we've seen from this game come from that Bridge area. All those dragons, and the hundreds of soldiers fighting on it.

That is just 15% of that level.
Note the Bridge area circled in Red.

[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='dpatel']You clearly don't know much about game development, and blaming these faults on some hype (which we all know is complete BS) is laughable.[/QUOTE]
I know game development pretty well actually. And again, illustrate this amazing scale for me, that excuses Lair from looking like a PS2 game with bump-mapping.

And, uh, blaming a game for looking like shit, after all this hype about how "anything is possible on PS3 thanks to BR and Cell" makes me look laughable? I think you are seriously, seriously mistaken, sir.

Edit: Doesn't seem all that ridiculously massive. I mean, Far Cry, anyone? And that game is 4 years old.

I mean, no shit, if your game looks like ass, you can make really big environments. If they didn't mind it looking like a PS1 game, Lair could have been made on PS2. What's the big fucking deal here? I just can't imagine someone counting on scale like that, which is easily implemented technically, don't listen to the bullshit-spewing developers, to be the game's saving grace.

Edit 2: And check out the cool city made of toy buildings that don't cast shadows. Awesome.
 
I really loved the Rogue Squadron games, and Lair was one of the few PS3 exclusives I was looking forward to. It's too bad about the bad scores, I was hoping it would be a good game.
Hopefully Factor 5 will go back to making Rogue Squadron games for the next gen systems. Just imagine the Battle of Endor on a system like the 360 or PS3. :drool:
 
I don't know if it's just me but I always felt that if a game I wanted got a handful of low scores I would just spend a few bucks and rent it or just borrow it for a day off of a friend before I buy. Lord knows I've enjoyed a stupid number of games most magazines wrote off and vice versa.

I'm just wondering what knocked down the scores quite a bit for each of the games I was looking at, save Persona. But, to reiterate points raised by some other people, this could have been a pissy month for the reviewers as well.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']I know game development pretty well actually. And again, illustrate this amazing scale for me, that excuses Lair from looking like a PS2 game in the select few screens I have handpicked to base my argument on[/QUOTE]

Fixed

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']And, uh, blaming a game for looking like shit, after all this hype about how "anything is possible on PS3 thanks to BR and Cell" makes me look laughable? I think you are seriously, seriously mistaken, sir.[/QUOTE]

Well yea. I agree Sony should not have been hyping the Cell and BR like crazy, but, like the saying goes:
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I still can't get over how susceptible people are to hype and marketing.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Edit: Doesn't seem all that ridiculously massive. I mean, Far Cry, anyone? And that game is 4 years old.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Far Cry is also a very impressive game. I don't believe the environments were that large (keep in mind the vertical size of these maps too), and I know it did not have as much going on at one time.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']I mean, no shit, if your game looks like ass, you can make really big environments. If they didn't mind it looking like a PS1 game, Lair could have been made on PS2. What's the big fucking deal here? I just can't imagine someone counting on scale like that, which is easily implemented technically, [/QUOTE]

It's amazing how much of your rant is based on a small number of screens for the game.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']don't listen to the bullshit-spewing developers, to be the game's saving grace.[/QUOTE]

Why not? Apparently you seem to.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Edit 2: And check out the cool city made of toy buildings that don't cast shadows. Awesome.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I've acknowledged that the game isn't exactly graphically impressive.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Fixed[/quote]
Please, pick some better screens.

[quote name='dpatel']Well yea. I agree Sony should not have been hyping the Cell and BR like crazy, but, like the saying goes:
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I still can't get over how susceptible people are to hype and marketing.[/quote]
Excuse me, but Sony never fooled me to begin with, with their garbage marketing and Cell hype and all that trash. Care to try again?

And furthermore, while you might not be able to get over people's susceptibility to hype and marketing, hey, Sony's counting on it to sell systems!

[quote name='dpatel']Yes, Far Cry is also a very impressive game. I don't believe the environments were that large (keep in mind the vertical size of these maps too), and I know it did not have as much going on at one time.[/quote]
So, heightmaps = incredible graphics? And furthermore, while it looks like a lot is going on, I'm sure the AI is dumb as a rock. I doubt that it's really calculating these battles too deeply. Proof otherwise would be impressive.

[quote name='dpatel']It's amazing how much of your rant is based on a small number of screens for the game.[/quote]
I've seen every screen IGN has of Lair, and watched all the trailers. Even if I had only seen a few screens, these screens are evident of things that are wrong across any screen you could pick of the game: there is almost no lighting, the ground is ugly as shit and devoid of any detail, the fire is the same effect N64 games used, and even the skybox looks bad. I could go on.


[quote name='dpatel']Why not? Apparently you seem to.[/quote]
Uh...what? Whatever you just said, I'm having trouble understanding it. So, I'm being, uh, persuaded and manipulated by Sony and Factor 5 by shitting all over their game?

[quote name='dpatel']Yes, I've acknowledged that the game isn't exactly graphically impressive.[/QUOTE]
And claimed that instead of great graphics, Lair delivers amazing technical accomplishments of scale. And yet, you've provided no impressive examples, other a really big brown mountain and field with almost no detail at all.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Please, pick some better screens.[/quote]

Take your pick:
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/761/761161/imgs_1.html

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Excuse me, but Sony never fooled me to begin with, with their garbage marketing and Cell hype and all that trash. Care to try again?[/quote]

Well your expectations were definitely influenced by their hype/BS:
So, gee, I thought that (incoming corporate bullshit lie talk) "the power of Blu-Ray and the Cell processor" would totally remove all restrictions on game developers and blah blah infinite power blah blah supercomputer blah blah blah.

Sounds to me like you're faulting the game for not living up to the unrealistic hype that Sony spewed about the PS3. Now, if one did not buy into the hype, one would not fault a game for not living up to any sort of unrealistic hype/BS that, supposedly, one does not buy into.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']And furthermore, while you might not be able to get over people's susceptibility to hype and marketing, hey, Sony's counting on it to sell systems![/quote]

Exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. And, FYI, hype was around long before Sony entered the gaming industry.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']So, heightmaps = incredible graphics? And furthermore, while it looks like a lot is going on, I'm sure the AI is dumb as a rock. I doubt that it's really calculating these battles too deeply. Proof otherwise would be impressive.[/quote]

Nope. Like I stated before, I don't find the game graphically impressive, just technically impressive.

As for the AI, I have no idea how it fares.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']I've seen every screen IGN has of Lair, and watched all the trailers. Even if I had only seen a few screens, these screens are evident of things that are wrong across any screen you could pick of the game: there is almost no lighting, the ground is ugly as shit and devoid of any detail, the fire is the same effect N64 games used, and even the skybox looks bad. I could go on.[/quote]

Like I said before, graphically impressive =/= technically impressive.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Uh...what? Whatever you just said, I'm having trouble understanding it. So, I'm being, uh, persuaded and manipulated by Sony and Factor 5 by shitting all over their game?[/quote]

What I am getting is that you are putting this game up on higher standards because of the hype/BS that you, supposedly, don't buy into. Someone who doesn't buy into it probably wouldn't expect games to actually live up to the unrealistic hype.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']And claimed that instead of great graphics, Lair delivers amazing technical accomplishments of scale. And yet, you've provided no impressive examples, other a really big brown mountain and field with almost no detail at all.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what sort of detail you were expecting from that far a distance. Obviously the humans are not going to look like this:
http://xs317.xs.to/xs317/07306/2image8.jpg
When you are that far away.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Take your pick:
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/761/761161/imgs_1.html[/quote]
Okay. I closed my eyes and randomly clicked on this one (and this is a recent shot): http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/761/761161/img_4702458.html

I really don't even have to say anything about this, do I?

[quote name='dpatel']Well your expectations were definitely influenced by their hype/BS:
So, gee, I thought that (incoming corporate bullshit lie talk) "the power of Blu-Ray and the Cell processor" would totally remove all restrictions on game developers and blah blah infinite power blah blah supercomputer blah blah blah.

Sounds to me like you're faulting the game for not living up to the unrealistic hype that Sony spewed about the PS3. Now, if one did not buy into the hype, one would not fault a game for not living up to any sort of unrealistic hype/BS that, supposedly, one does not buy into.[/quote]
Wow, you misunderstood my intentions by mentioning Sony's hype machine completely. I was ridiculing it, and have been from the get go. I didn't initially fall for it, get pissed off when it was all exaggeration, and then got bitter about it. I've always thought that Sony's claims are total lies. DUH.

My expectations for this game are based off my expectations for games in general. This would look like balls on 360, too.

I'm faulting this game for looking like dog shit. I'm double faulting it for looking like dog shit, on a system that Sony has insisted destroys all creative barriers, makes practically anything possible, and in multiple times as powerful as it's competition. Whatever things that it really does, making Lair look good isn't one of them.

[quote name='dpatel']Exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. And, FYI, hype was around long before Sony entered the gaming industry.[/quote]
You think I wasn't pissed off about the whole Blast Processing fiasco, too?

What do you mean, "Exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about"? I'm criticizing Sony for lying and exaggerating, hoping to sell PS3s. What are you talking about?

[quote name='dpatel']Nope. Like I stated before, I don't find the game graphically impressive, just technically impressive.[/quote]
And yet you haven't given a half-decent reason why yet. Huh.

[quote name='dpatel']Like I said before, graphically impressive =/= technically impressive.[/quote]

And yet, the first thing you did in this post was link me to screens of Lair, trying to refute my claims that it looks like shit. And again, I'm not seeing the technical wonder's here. Big, but devoid of detail = technically impressive? Shit, dude, I can whip up some simple mountains in Blender real quick, and then take a tiny model of a person and drop him in there. Is that technically amazing, too?

[quote name='dpatel']What I am getting is that you are putting this game up on higher standards because of the hype/BS that you, supposedly, don't buy into. Someone who doesn't buy into it probably wouldn't expect games to actually live up to the unrealistic hype.[/quote]

God damnit, you took my ridicule of Sony's hype machine more incorrectly than I can rightly comprehend. I personally never bought into it, because I'm not stupid, but that doesn't suddenly make it OK for PS3 games to look like shit even when compared to most 360 games, as you seem to be claiming. And I'm not putting Lair to a higher standard. I'm am first putting Lair to the standard of current-gen games, and it looks about average for a 360/PS3 game. And as a PS3 game, seeing as that system is supposed to be so much more powerful, I'm sorry, but it's inexcusable.

[quote name='dpatel']I'm not sure what sort of detail you were expecting from that far a distance. Obviously the humans are not going to look like this:
http://xs317.xs.to/xs317/07306/2image8.jpg
When you are that far away.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about the terrain. Look at the base of that city in dallow's screen. It's a fucking flat gray table with buildings scattered on top of it. It's total garbage.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']CRAP[/quote]

You are full of it. The game looks pretty good. Really, what on Earth are you talking about? It looks good, maybe not as good as some but it is next-gen material.
 
AHHHHHH it's the end of the world...one magazine didn't like Lair

give me friggin break with the screenshot comparisons as well...the only way you can tell me it is shitty is if you play it...
 
So, CoffeeEdge is Francis from Super Paper Mario? Arguing about games on the internet we've not played. That adds to the mental picture greatly. Awesome.
 
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