Format War - HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray - *Its Over...Toshiba Swings White Flag*

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[quote name='dallow']Trilogy cut into the sales. And with such low volume of movie sales overall, it makes a big difference.

plus pack in SM3
[/quote]


which is evident because by title it was number 9, and how did Ghost Rider get up so high?
 
Thanks for bringing up SM3 and Ghost Rider, I forgot to move them to the top 10 SKU list. Here it is:

Code: 
Top 10 YTD by SKU:

1.  300 BR                        100.00
2.  Transformers                    66.57
3.  300 HD                        52.84
4.  Casino Royale                    51.83
5.  The Departed BR                    33.79
6.  Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest        33.68
7.  Planet Earth: The Complete Series HD        30.71
8.  Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl    29.79
9.  Planet Earth: The Complete Series BR        29.19
10. Apocalypto                        26.70

xx. Spider-Man 3                    25.00
xx. Ghost Rider                        21.78
xx. Batman Begins                    21.62
xx. The Departed HD                    20.59
 
[quote name='Sporadic']We have been talking about parents and kid (most well known) division of Disney the whole time.

And I've been saying that Disney being exclusive is good for you guys but that in the sense of parents buying it so their kids can watch Pixar/Disney films in HD, not so much.[/QUOTE]

So it's significant except when it isn't? That's not a novel argument.

In other (more hilarious and perfectly expectable) news,:
http://www.avmagazine.it/news/sorgenti/onkyo-dv-hd805-l-hd-dvd-fantasma_2654.html

(translated below, taken fromBlu-Ray.com forums):

Onkyo DV-HD805, the phantom HD DVD

By: Gian Luca Di Felice

The first Onkyo HD DVD player has been available in Italy for a few days now, but it can already be considered as a collector's item, because there are very few units in existence, and Onkyo has stopped its production.

We were waiting for a unit of the first Onkyo HD DVD player, the DV-HD805, for review on the pages of AV Magazine. After a conversation with Tecnofuturo, the Brescia-based Italian distributor of the Japanese manufacturer, we decided in mutual agreement that it was not worth the trouble. The reasons are quickly explained: the DV-HD805 is no other than a rebranded Toshiba HD-XE1 HD DVD player, which is already compatible with streaming of all lossless multichannel HD codecs via HDMI 1.3, and there are only few units of it available.

In view of the new marketing policy being applied by Toshiba, consisting of sinking the price of its own players, Onkyo has difficulty in positioning its own player (the Europe list price is 899 euros) and has therefore decided to stop production. The scarce units produced have been redistributed in varios markets. It has been known that barely 11 units arrived in Italy, and no others will come. Germany has been more fortunate, with 20 units, and Spain will receive none.

As to why it was decided not to review such a product, apart from its being a clone, it won't be effectively be available on the market (the 11 Italian units are already sold). We thank Tecnofuturo for such a quick communication and we apologize to the enthusiasts. Onkyo is already working actively on a new player and according to tidbits it could be this time a Blu-ray player or a hybrid player. We'll have other news and more confirmation during the upcoming CES at Las Vegas.
Click to expand...
 
And just for shits 'n giggles, here's an estimate of unit sales, based on an assumption of 400k copies of 300 sold combined on both formats:

Code: 
Top 10 YTD by SKU unit estimates:

1.  300 BR                        261,712
2.  Transformers                    174,221
3.  300 HD                        138,288
4.  Casino Royale                    135,645
5.  The Departed BR                    88,432
6.  Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest        88,144
8.  Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl    77,964
9.  Planet Earth: The Complete Series BR        76,394
10. Apocalypto                        69,877

xx. Spider-Man 3                    65,427
xx. Ghost Rider                        57,001
xx. Batman Begins                    56,582
xx. The Departed HD                    53,886

Top 10 YTD by Title unit estimates:

1.  300                            400,000
2.  Transformers                    174,240
3.  Planet Earth: The Complete Series            156,760
4.  The Departed                    142,320
5.  Casino Royale                    135,640
6.  Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest        88,120
7.  Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl    77,960
8.  Apocalypto                        69,880
9.  Spider-Man 3                    65,440
10. Ghost Rider                        57,000

xx. Batman Begins                    56,560
Note that these are obviously estimates, and both the starting assumption and the lack of precision in the figures also results in different totals for the same movies on the different lists. It is what it is. :)
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Why is that? Do they gain profits off of any HD-DVD sales like Sony does with Blu-ray?[/QUOTE]

You're forgetting Blu-ray discs are more expensive then HD DVDs, and nearly all the Blu-ray studios (except Warner) has been literally giving away there movies for $10-$15 for the past few months. Profit wise, I can't magine any of the Blu-ray studios are making any money off these movies.
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']which is evident because by title it was number 9, and how did Ghost Rider get up so high?[/QUOTE]

I don't recall Ghost Rider ever being in a BOGO before, so I'm stumped why it is so high on the list. It wasn't that great of a movie, though it looked great.

As for Spider-Man 3 being a pack-in, its only with the 40GB PS3s, not the 60GB or 80GB. I imagine it will cut into sales though much like 300 being free with all current HD DVD players as well. Why buy what you will get free?
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']You're forgetting Blu-ray discs are more expensive then HD DVDs, and nearly all the Blu-ray studios (except Warner) has been literally giving away there movies for $10-$15 for the past few months. Profit wise, I can't magine any of the Blu-ray studios are making any money off these movies.[/QUOTE]

Don't misuse the word literally.
 
[quote name='dallow']That's why I spoilered it.
Trilogy SKU is a much, MUCH bigger factor.[/QUOTE]

But the Trilogy did not sell as well as Spider-Man 3. Even combining the sales of two two SKUs I don't think it would have over-taken 300 or Transformers.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']You're forgetting Blu-ray discs are more expensive then HD DVDs, and nearly all the Blu-ray studios (except Warner) has been literally giving away there movies for $10-$15 for the past few months. Profit wise, I can't magine any of the Blu-ray studios are making any money off these movies.[/quote]
I know this, but I can't see that being a reason why they would never go exclusive. Their movies are selling like crap and they can't be making that much money off of them anyways.

And Also, Fox hasn't been a part of any BOGO except for the Fry's one recently, it's only been Sony/Disney.

and I have a hard time Fathoming Spider-man 3 selling so low for some reason, seemed like it was doing much better and also Transformers selling 175,000, wouldn't that be that one out of every 2 HD-DVD owners bought the movie?
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']The Venturer HD DVD player has been purchased by an AVS member at a Wal-Mart in Canada.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=945284[/QUOTE]

In related news, all 11 Onkyo HD DVD players have sold out in Italy. The remaining 20 or so are in Germany. :rofl:

Isn't the Venturer player moot at this point? You crowed for months about how this would lead to the resurgence of HD DVD because it would launch at $200 (which it has). However, since Toshiba players can be found, quite easily, for a cheaper price, what's the purpose of this player again?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']In related news, all 11 Onkyo HD DVD players have sold out in Italy. The remaining 20 or so are in Germany. :rofl:

Isn't the Venturer player moot at this point? You crowed for months about how this would lead to the resurgence of HD DVD because it would launch at $200 (which it has). However, since Toshiba players can be found, quite easily, for a cheaper price, what's the purpose of this player again?[/quote]

Cheaper in Canada, but as they will point out that the fact that in Pal territories Blu-ray selling 4-to-1 is irrerelevant, so is Canada than.
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']I know this, but I can't see that being a reason why they would never go exclusive. Their movies are selling like crap and they can't be making that much money off of them anyways.

And Also, Fox hasn't been a part of any BOGO except for the Fry's one recently, it's only been Sony/Disney.

and I have a hard time Fathoming Spider-man 3 selling so low for some reason, seemed like it was doing much better and also Transformers selling 175,000, wouldn't that be that one out of every 2 HD-DVD owners bought the movie?[/QUOTE]

There is only a 1 software million difference between the formats and the BDA has been selling there movies for $10-15 for many months now. I can't imagine Disney likes selling 100k copies of the POTC movies for $12 a piece.

Fox has been a part of two BOGOs now, 1 that has been week long at Frys, as well as Amazon.com. I fully expect there to be more BOGOs from Fox in the very near future.

As for Transformers, there are at least 500k stand alones sold BEFORE the $99 Wal-Mart deal and that does not count 360 HD DVD players which are 100% purchased to play HD DVDs. I imagine 175k for Transformers is maybe 1 out of every 4 people who own a player.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']There is only a 1 software million difference between the formats and the BDA has been selling there movies for $10-15 for many months now. I can't imagine Disney likes selling 100k copies of the POTC movies for $12 a piece.

Fox has been a part of two BOGOs now, 1 that has been week long at Frys, as well as Amazon.com. I fully expect there to be more BOGOs from Fox in the very near future.

As for Transformers, there are at least 500k stand alones sold BEFORE the $99 Wal-Mart deal and that does not count 360 HD DVD players which are 100% purchased to play HD DVDs. I imagine 175k for Transformers is maybe 1 out of every 4 people who own a player.[/quote]
So we know wal-mart sold 60,000 HD-A2, and we know there are what, 100,000 HD-DVD players? 175/660 which is a 1/4 ratio. that still seems high to me. Especially considering Tranformers is a gamer crowd movie and we all know Gamer's dont buy movies. ;)

And Gizmo, even if Universal makes money off of HD-DVD, they would make MORE by going to blu-ray as well. Even if they make half on blu-ray movies that they do on HD-DVD, they are still likely to sell more copies and are still making more money. If profits are hte only reason than them going neutral makes it even MORE likely that they would go neutral, not stay exclusive.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']In related news, all 11 Onkyo HD DVD players have sold out in Italy. The remaining 20 or so are in Germany. :rofl:

Isn't the Venturer player moot at this point? You crowed for months about how this would lead to the resurgence of HD DVD because it would launch at $200 (which it has). However, since Toshiba players can be found, quite easily, for a cheaper price, what's the purpose of this player again?[/QUOTE]

The Onkyo is simply an XA2 with an Onkyo badge on it for $300 more. Kinda insane for anyone to actually buy one unless they feel the need to match their audio/video system together.. Someone on AVS has one but has yet to do any tests on it.

The Venturer would have been great sub $200 had Wal-Mart not sold 60k A2s for $99, and the A3 hovering in the $200 range with several free movies for the past month. I would think if the Venturer is brought to the U.S. it will be $149 with the 2 free movies (Rumor Has It and The Perfect Storm) inside. Still a great value for those not trained to search online for the A3 deal that pops up randomly. The again, Wal-Mart may simply substitute the $99 A2 for this as an "everyday price", which would be a great value for those that could careless about it saying "Venturer" or it being a bit ugly. Time will tell.
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']So we know wal-mart sold 60,000 HD-A2, and we know there are what, 100,000 HD-DVD players? 175/660 which is a 1/4 ratio. that still seems high to me. Especially considering Tranformers is a gamer crowd movie and we all know Gamer's dont buy movies. ;)[/QUOTE]

100k 360 AOs? No...the number is MUCH higher for those. Last I can recall it was 200k and that was before the $199 price cut and the recent Best Buy/Amazon deals for it. I'm not sure there is even a viable way to see how many have sold. If someone buys the 360 AO, they plan on watching movies. If not, they are fucking stupid for spending $179 for a USB hub.

Wal-Mart sold 60k A2s, but altogethr (including Best Buy) 90k were sold in those 2-3 days.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']There is only a 1 software million difference between the formats and the BDA has been selling there movies for $10-15 for many months now. I can't imagine Disney likes selling 100k copies of the POTC movies for $12 a piece.

Fox has been a part of two BOGOs now, 1 that has been week long at Frys, as well as Amazon.com. I fully expect there to be more BOGOs from Fox in the very near future.

As for Transformers, there are at least 500k stand alones sold BEFORE the $99 Wal-Mart deal and that does not count 360 HD DVD players which are 100% purchased to play HD DVDs. I imagine 175k for Transformers is maybe 1 out of every 4 people who own a player.[/quote]Hehe, attach rates strike again!
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Why is that? Do they gain profits off of any HD-DVD sales like Sony does with Blu-ray?[/QUOTE]

Because they been there since the beginning and they aren't going to about face when things are just becoming interesting.

And while I don't think they have anything on the levels of Sony with Blu-Ray, they have alot invested in this.

In reality there are only 3 studios that can really switch right now; Lionsgate (either neutral or HD exclusive), Warner (either HD-DVD or Blu) & Weinstein Company (neutral). Everybody else is pretty locked up.

[quote name='mykevermin']So it's significant except when it isn't? That's not a novel argument. [/QUOTE]

What? I don't think you understand.

They are significant because they have Miramax/Touchstone Pictures/etc and demo disc material in Pixar/Disney BUT if you think there are a ton of parents out there going "well, honey, we better go Blu so little Johnny can watch Cars on the big screen", I think you are horribly mistaken.

That has been me & Gizmo's stance since the beginning of this thread.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Because they been there since the beginning and they aren't going to about face when things are just becoming interesting.

And while I don't think they have anything on the levels of Sony with Blu-Ray, they have alot invested in this.

In reality there are only 3 studios that can really switch right now; Lionsgate (either neutral or HD exclusive), Warner (either HD-DVD or Blu) & Weinstein Company (neutral). Everybody else is pretty locked up.



What? I don't think you understand.

They are significant because they have Miramax/Touchstone Pictures/etc and demo disc material in Pixar/Disney BUT if you think there are a ton of parents out there going "well, honey, we better go Blu so little Johnny can watch Cars on the big screen", I think you are horribly mistaken.[/quote]
IIRC Lionsgate has a distribution deal with Fox and that's why they are Blu-ray exclusive.

Your last line has been what I have been saying all along....
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']There is only a 1 software million difference between the formats and the BDA has been selling there movies for $10-15 for many months now. I can't imagine Disney likes selling 100k copies of the POTC movies for $12 a piece.[/quote]

It was 1.2-1.3 million a few months back, puddin'. Also, keeping in mind that HD DVD hasn't won a single week since then (and really only had two weeks where the gap was not its typical 66/34 margin), that gap has grown larger. Could easily be 1.5 million by now. And, keep in mind, growing steadily in a single direction: in favor of Blu-Ray.

[quote name='GizmoGC']The Onkyo is simply an XA2 with an Onkyo badge on it for $300 more. Kinda insane for anyone to actually buy one unless they feel the need to match their audio/video system together.. Someone on AVS has one but has yet to do any tests on it.[/quote]

Where did that "superior hardware" you mentioned it had in a previous post go? :rofl:

Last week: Onkyo was on board, and HD DVD's growing CE manufacturers was a good sign; Onkyo used higher quality products than Toshiba.
This week: Onkyo ditches HD DVD, dismissed as a product one must be "insane" to buy.

You're a fuckin' treat man. I man that from the bottom of my heart.

The Venturer would have been great sub $200 had Wal-Mart not sold 60k A2s for $99, and the A3 hovering in the $200 range with several free movies for the past month.
Click to expand...

You can't blame Wal-Mart for that one, as it was clearly an HDG promotion, given that it appeared at both Best Buy and Circuit City as well. Amazon's sales on the A3 have also gone below the $200 pricepoint. Toshiba and the HDG made the product irrelevant as a result of their dumping strategy to get players in people's homes. It's a gamble that may very well pay off in the long run (I don't buy it), but as a consequence it's made one of the two other CEs stop after making fewer than 50 units, and the other made entirely irrelevant. That's the tradeoff, and they surely knew this would happen.

I would think if the Venturer is brought to the U.S. it will be $149 with the 2 free movies (Rumor Has It and The Perfect Storm) inside. Still a great value for those not trained to search online for the A3 deal that pops up randomly. The again, Wal-Mart may simply substitute the $99 A2 for this as an "everyday price", which would be a great value for those that could careless about it saying "Venturer" or it being a bit ugly. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

Wal-Mart can't substitute a product that no longer is made (A2) at an everyday $99 pricepoint. I also highly doubt, considering the extraordinarily weak value of the US dollar, we'll see it at a $150 MSRP. Canadian products are a touch more expensive, but not that much. At the cheapest, it would rival the 360AO, in my opinion.

[quote name='Sporadic']What? I don't think you understand.

They are significant because they have Miramax/Touchstone Pictures/etc and demo disc material in Pixar/Disney BUT if you think there are a ton of parents out there going "well, honey, we better go Blu so little Johnny can watch Cars on the big screen", I think you are horribly mistaken.

That has been me & Gizmo's stance since the beginning of this thread.[/QUOTE]

Gizmo and I.

Well, we'll just agree to disagree then, no? Big action/horror "dude" movies pervade the top 10 disc sales, which provide ample insight into just who is buying HDM, and for whom. I'd argue that, ATM, Disney's kids catalog is vastly more important than the "chick flick" factor. Nevertheless, at some point, without fail, movie options for children will become important. Sooner than later, IMO. At that point, Disney's exclusivity will be even more vital for Blu-Ray.
 
[quote name='myke']Where did that "superior hardware" you mentioned it had in a previous post go? :rofl:

Last week: Onkyo was on board, and HD DVD's growing CE manufacturers was a good sign; Onkyo used higher quality products than Toshiba.
This week: Onkyo ditches HD DVD, dismissed as a product one must be "insane" to buy.

You're a fuckin' treat man. I man that from the bottom of my heart.[/quote]I hope you respond to this Gizmo.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
[quote name='mykevermin']It was 1.2-1.3 million a few months back, puddin'. Also, keeping in mind that HD DVD hasn't won a single week since then (and really only had two weeks where the gap was not its typical 66/34 margin), that gap has grown larger. Could easily be 1.5 million by now. And, keep in mind, growing steadily in a single direction: in favor of Blu-Ray.



Where did that "superior hardware" you mentioned it had in a previous post go? :rofl:[/quote]

We have not been given any idea about software numbers in a while. A lot of places sell HDM (Wal-Mart for example) that do not report to Nielsen. A lot of numbers are unknown.

Last week: Onkyo was on board, and HD DVD's growing CE manufacturers was a good sign; Onkyo used higher quality products than Toshiba.
This week: Onkyo ditches HD DVD, dismissed as a product one must be "insane" to buy.

You're a fuckin' treat man. I man that from the bottom of my heart.
Click to expand...

My understanding was the Onkyo was an XA2 rebadged as Onkyo with "enhanced" parts. While it would have been a bit nicer, it is no where worth the extra $300 they wanted for it ($799 vs $499 the XA2 has been). My stance on the whole thing was that there were more CEs with HD DVD players out. More CEs to counter the CEs supporting Blu-ray. Having a choice is always great, even if its the same damn player with just a different name. I put the Onkyo right up there with the Sony BDP-500 ($699 price tag vs $499 for the BDP-300) and the now dead Samsung 2400. Superior products that audio/videophiles would buy over the "cheaper" version.

You can't blame Wal-Mart for that one, as it was clearly an HDG promotion, given that it appeared at both Best Buy and Circuit City as well. Amazon's sales on the A3 have also gone below the $200 pricepoint. Toshiba and the HDG made the product irrelevant as a result of their dumping strategy to get players in people's homes. It's a gamble that may very well pay off in the long run (I don't buy it), but as a consequence it's made one of the two other CEs stop after making fewer than 50 units, and the other made entirely irrelevant. That's the tradeoff, and they surely knew this would happen.
Click to expand...

Actually it WAS Wal-Mart. I'll have to dig up the article, but apparently Wal-Mart bought all of that A2 stock from Toshiba for a price a little under $200. The $99 (and the loss) was all Wal-Marts idea. Best Buy and others simply followed Wal-Marts pricing. I think even a Toshiba rep recently mentioned the price cuts were retail driven, not them.

Wal-Mart can't substitute a product that no longer is made (A2) at an everyday $99 pricepoint. I also highly doubt, considering the extraordinarily weak value of the US dollar, we'll see it at a $150 MSRP. Canadian products are a touch more expensive, but not that much. At the cheapest, it would rival the 360AO, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Yet we were amazed to ever see a sub $200 HD DVD name brand player before Christmas, yet its happened. How is it a big shock for Wal-Mart to carry the now produced Venturer vs. the A2 which is no longer being made? I doubt they would want to carry the A3 at the $99 price since its a new product and is still be carried in numerous stores. The A2 was being phased out by the A3 hence why it was easier to carry. Judging by some units coming with an HDMI cable and some not, I'm going to go out on a wild limb and say some were returned from stores (Costco) and replaced with the A3.
 
[quote name='gizmo']Having a choice is always great, even if its the same damn player with just a different name. [/quote]Which is why the PS3 should burn in hell as a game system instead of being another choice and something else to offer.
 
[quote name='dallow']Which is why the PS3 should burn in hell as a game system instead of being another choice and something else to offer.[/QUOTE]

Sony killed there chance to be #1 this generation in games for Blu-ray. If Blu-ray succeeds...its a win. If Blu-ray fails or this war never ends then they fucked up big time. As of right now the PS3 is a pretty big failure and Blu-ray has not won the war like they have claimed 15 times now.
 
Venturers website now says....

"To purchase this unit, visit either Wal-Mart USA, Wal-Mart Canada or Target."

Looks like Wal-Mart USA will carry this unit. Can't wait to see pricing on this.
It may be re-badged for Target if they do not carry Venturer products (though I believe Target re-brands Venturer products in USA stores uner the label TruTech). Apparently several other online shops are going to be carrying this as well and have the ability to re-brand them to anything they want (ValueElectronics has been interested in these for a long time now)
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']We have not been given any idea about software numbers in a while. A lot of places sell HDM (Wal-Mart for example) that do not report to Nielsen. A lot of numbers are unknown.[/quote]

Ah, yes. I suppose that, knowing the gap was 1.2-1.3 million 8 weeks ago, and with the growing gap in HDM sales consistently in favor of Blu-Ray, without exception, that HD DVD closed the gap by 200-300,000 discs, and we're back at 1 million.

:rofl:

My understanding was the Onkyo was an XA2 rebadged as Onkyo with "enhanced" parts. While it would have been a bit nicer, it is no where worth the extra $300 they wanted for it ($799 vs $499 the XA2 has been). My stance on the whole thing was that there were more CEs with HD DVD players out. More CEs to counter the CEs supporting Blu-ray.
Click to expand...

Don't you understand that there is now zero incentive to build an HD DVD player, since prices have bottomed out? I guess I already know your answer to that question. No.

Well, you still have more than 1, so you can still throw your ticker tape parade. Toshiba and Venturer, sittin' in a tree....

Having a choice is always great, even if its the same damn player with just a different name.
Click to expand...

Having a choice is great, even if both choices are identical? If you say so, precious.

I put the Onkyo right up there with the Sony BDP-500 ($699 price tag vs $499 for the BDP-300) and the now dead Samsung 2400. Superior products that audio/videophiles would buy over the "cheaper" version.
Click to expand...

All ~philes, or just the "insane" ones?

Actually it WAS Wal-Mart. I'll have to dig up the article, but apparently Wal-Mart bought all of that A2 stock from Toshiba for a price a little under $200. The $99 (and the loss) was all Wal-Marts idea. Best Buy and others simply followed Wal-Marts pricing. I think even a Toshiba rep recently mentioned the price cuts were retail driven, not them.
Click to expand...

Like with your perpetual denial of $150 million changing hands in the Paramount deal ("dude, I swear, all we said was "pwetty pwease????" and Paramount signed the contract!"), you're willfully ignoring the world of reality here. If you think Toshiba had no involvement in this, you're the kind of fool who thinks that failure to be the #1 product means that it is inferior (except, of course, when it is the format *you* prefer ;)). You think Wal-Mart paid for those HD DVD spots all by themselves? You think Wal-Mart, BB, and CC did this all with no promotional consideration paid for by the HDG? You clearly have no idea how economics works. I'd recommend you start with the concept of "monopsony" as it pertains to Wal-Mart.

Yet we were amazed to ever see a sub $200 HD DVD name brand player before Christmas, yet its happened.
Click to expand...

Glory be; Christ is born!

How is it a big shock for Wal-Mart to carry the now produced Venturer vs. the A2 which is no longer being made? I doubt they would want to carry the A3 at the $99 price since its a new product and is still be carried in numerous stores. The A2 was being phased out by the A3 hence why it was easier to carry. Judging by some units coming with an HDMI cable and some not, I'm going to go out on a wild limb and say some were returned from stores (Costco) and replaced with the A3.
Click to expand...

Because loss leaders are temporary, silly.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Ah, yes. I suppose that, knowing the gap was 1.2-1.3 million 8 weeks ago, and with the growing gap in HDM sales consistently in favor of Blu-Ray, without exception, that HD DVD closed the gap by 200-300,000 discs, and we're back at 1 million.

:rofl:



Don't you understand that there is now zero incentive to build an HD DVD player, since prices have bottomed out? I guess I already know your answer to that question. No.

Well, you still have more than 1, so you can still throw your ticker tape parade. Toshiba and Venturer, sittin' in a tree....



Having a choice is great, even if both choices are identical? If you say so, precious.



All ~philes, or just the "insane" ones?



Like with your perpetual denial of $150 million changing hands in the Paramount deal ("dude, I swear, all we said was "pwetty pwease????" and Paramount signed the contract!"), you're willfully ignoring the world of reality here. If you think Toshiba had no involvement in this, you're the kind of fool who thinks that failure to be the #1 product means that it is inferior (except, of course, when it is the format *you* prefer ;)). You think Wal-Mart paid for those HD DVD spots all by themselves? You think Wal-Mart, BB, and CC did this all with no promotional consideration paid for by the HDG? You clearly have no idea how economics works. I'd recommend you start with the concept of "monopsony" as it pertains to Wal-Mart.



Glory be; Christ is born!



Because loss leaders are temporary, silly.[/QUOTE]

You have no rebuttal? I should just respond to all of your comments with cute words as well. Still cute to see the little smurfs go ga-ga for Blu-ray since it was forced upon there cute little butts. Whats gonna happen when Blu-ray falls and cracks its 'wittle head? Will it bweed Blu blood?
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']You have no rebuttal? I should just respond to all of your comments with cute words as well. Still cute to see the little smurfs go ga-ga for Blu-ray since it was forced upon there cute little butts. Whats gonna happen when Blu-ray falls and cracks its 'wittle head? Will it bweed Blu blood?[/QUOTE]

Blu-ray is selling more than HD-DVD which means it is the superior format. This was your logic behind the PS3 being the worst since it sells the least.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']You have no rebuttal? I should just respond to all of your comments with cute words as well. Still cute to see the little smurfs go ga-ga for Blu-ray since it was forced upon there cute little butts. Whats gonna happen when Blu-ray falls and cracks its 'wittle head? Will it bweed Blu blood?[/QUOTE]

:lol:
 
[quote name='dpatel']Blu-ray is selling more than HD-DVD which means it is the superior format. This was your logic behind the PS3 being the worst since it sells the least.[/QUOTE]

Hardware wise HD DVD stand alones are selling better then Blu-ray stand alones, hence why I mentioned the Wii and 360 outselling it (PS3). Software wise Blu-ray is selling better then HD DVD, no doubt about that. However when you have BOGOs every week that would happen. Do you really think the numbers would be 65/35 60/40 so often if Blu-ray didn't run these BOGOs? The numbers would be pretty damn close and that "gap" wouldn't be moving by much. The BDA feels giving away movies for $10-15 is the way to go and the HD DVD group does not feel that way. The BDA continues to tout Software sales while the HD DVD group touts Hardware sales.
 
Small review of the Onkyo HD DVD player...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12322090&postcount=618

I will be 100% up front and honest here. I expected to open it and return it tomorrow! I really did. After spending a few hours though it has officially replaced my XA2 and A35 as the starter in my set up. It's true. It really has. I was stunned at how fast it loads. Its like Toshiba decided to wait and put the fastest load time on the HD805. Most HD DVDs that I put in loaded in about 10 to 12 seconds. Some even less! It is right up there with the Panasonic DMP BD30K. It may not equal it in load times but it is right there. That was a HUGE surprise.

Moving on to the HD DVD comparisons. Yes, it is the exact same menu as the XA2 and A35. Nothing different. It was a breeze to get going. I did forget about the button in the push open door on the front that requires you to select SD or HD output. So I compared them at 1080i/1080p60/1080p24... Now the interesting stuff. They should all have the exact same picture. Well, for some reason the HD805 has a sharper menu. I know that is no big deal but I found that odd. And all my displays were set the same exact way. It was not a huge difference but enough for me to take a second look. It was more noticeable with SD dvds which I will get to in a minute or two. Now playing the movies they all were pretty much the same. I did like the 1080i and 1080p pic Q slightly better on the HD805. For some reason there was less noise in the picture. My build date is October so it makes me wonder if they did a slight modification or two to the REON chip? I played the same exact scenes a few times just to make sure. It was ever so slight though so not enough to get crazy over. My 1080p/24 pic Q was great as well. Very sharp with hardly any noise. This unit was given some good parts because I tried like heck to get it to mess up. By mess up I mean show an error code or freeze or shut down. It wouldn't. It refused to disappoint me. I would have been very happy living with the XA2 or A35 but I am excited to put in the HD805 in my theater set up!

Now to SD dvds. Here is where it actually showed me something. SD dvds look clearer and are rendered with a little more detail. I think there is a XA3 in the works and I am willing to bet it will get the same modifications as the HD805. They obviously did something different with this unit. It is faster at responding, faster at loading and I am seeing a sharper image. Not to mention with all settings at minimum, less noise. And again not enough to throw your XA2 or A35 away but it does clearly show that a new player with these modifications will make a difference in the near future. I think if anything this is a positive for HD DVD. I truly expected the same exact performance of the XA2. I did get the same exact menu interface, cheaper remote and same back as the XA2. But from there I got much faster load times, faster responding, sharper images, less noise, and in my opinion the best looking HD DVD player to date. And of course this units biggest enemy is its pricing. If it were the same price as the XA2 I would choose it hands down over it. Heck, I would even pay a little more (which I just did)...
Click to expand...

Looks like there was in fact several improvements over the XA2/A35. Hopefully that means Toshiba is geering up an XA3 or Onkyo plans on making another player.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']Hardware wise HD DVD stand alones are selling better then Blu-ray stand alones, hence why I mentioned the Wii and 360 outselling it (PS3). Software wise Blu-ray is selling better then HD DVD, no doubt about that. However when you have BOGOs every week that would happen. Do you really think the numbers would be 65/35 60/40 so often if Blu-ray didn't run these BOGOs? The numbers would be pretty damn close and that "gap" wouldn't be moving by much. The BDA feels giving away movies for $10-15 is the way to go and the HD DVD group does not feel that way. The BDA continues to tout Software sales while the HD DVD group touts Hardware sales.[/quote]

I love the underlined statement:applause:


edit: i mean this in a good way for BDA
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']Hardware wise HD DVD stand alones are selling better then Blu-ray stand alones, hence why I mentioned the Wii and 360 outselling it (PS3). [/QUOTE]

And 60GB PS3s are outselling Core 360s. What's your point?

You need to tell me beforehand whether or not you are including the PS3. You flip flop your stance on the PS3, it's hard to keep up, to be quiet honest. HD-DVD definitely has the advantage with standalones, no doubt about that. But, there has been very little reason (up until recently) to pick up a standalone BD player over a PS3. So, I'm not sure how this is a bad thing. It's hard to gauge how many PS3 owners actually want it as a Blu-ray player instead of just being forced into it, but we do know that no one is forced into buying movies (outside the free ones given with the system), so, going by software sales, it's clear more people are embracing BD than HD-DVD. Many were forced to buy the hardware, but none were forced into buying the software.

Software wise Blu-ray is selling better then HD DVD, no doubt about that. However when you have BOGOs every week that would happen. Do you really think the numbers would be 65/35 60/40 so often if Blu-ray didn't run these BOGOs? The numbers would be pretty damn close and that "gap" wouldn't be moving by much. The BDA feels giving away movies for $10-15 is the way to go and the HD DVD group does not feel that way. The BDA continues to tout Software sales while the HD DVD group touts Hardware sales.
Click to expand...

What does this have to do with the fact that HD-DVD is still being outsold, and, is therefore, inferior? It's not like things are completely even between the PS3/360/Wii either. There are tons of variables that affect sales, but since you're simplifying which is better based on overall sales alone, it's pretty clear you believe BD is the superior format.
 
[quote name='Jedi1979']I love the underlined statement:applause:[/QUOTE]

Apparently there is some set of rules that both formats must adhere to, even if it sacrifices potential marketshare. I don't see how any consumer can see BOGOs as a bad thing. Anything that can build up my movie collection for cheap is a great thing. I realize it is done to help BDA gain marketshare, but what company DOESN'T have that ultimate goal?
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']I don't recall Ghost Rider ever being in a BOGO before, so I'm stumped why it is so high on the list. It wasn't that great of a movie, though it looked great.

As for Spider-Man 3 being a pack-in, its only with the 40GB PS3s, not the 60GB or 80GB. I imagine it will cut into sales though much like 300 being free with all current HD DVD players as well. Why buy what you will get free?[/QUOTE]

i got ghost rider BOGO from amazon
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']. The BDA feels giving away movies for $10-15 is the way to go and the HD DVD group does not feel that way.[/quote]

I have the 360 add on, and a ps3. I would like to see hd dvd win. Your point about pricing is one of the reasons I hate HD DVD. It is cheaper to make, you have less hardware on the market, and your products are marginally if at all better. Why do they feel the need to charge as much if not more (with the combo discs) for a product that is a lot cheaper to make. It is bullshit and arrogance stance for the HD DVD group. If they truely wanted to win, they would pull out all the stops like the BDA is doing.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Apparently there is some set of rules that both formats must adhere to, even if it sacrifices potential marketshare. I don't see how any consumer can see BOGOs as a bad thing. Anything that can build up my movie collection for cheap is a great thing. I realize it is done to help BDA gain marketshare, but what company DOESN'T have that ultimate goal?[/QUOTE]

Because if Nintendo decided to sell Mario Galaxy for $50 and then 2-3 weeks later have it be $20 every week people would stop buying the games at $50 and wait for the $20 sale. This is exactly what the BDA is doing with there movies. Why buy a movie today for $25-30 when it will be $10-15 2-3 weeks later? The BDA is conditioning people to "wait" for these sales and in term will lose profit and the weekly Nielsens if it continues. Ive held off buying several titles and wait for the BOGO, and so far, that has played out fairly well for me. Warner has yet to be a part of of any of these sales so I assume there stance is the same as Universal and Paramount. A BOGO every 2-3 months is fine, but every other week? Insane.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']Because if Nintendo decided to sell Mario Galaxy for $50 and then 2-3 weeks later have it be $20 every week people would stop buying the games at $50 and wait for the $20 sale. This is exactly what the BDA is doing with there movies. Why buy a movie today for $25-30 when it will be $10-15 2-3 weeks later? The BDA is conditioning people to "wait" for these sales and in term will lose profit and the weekly Nielsens if it continues. Ive held off buying several titles and wait for the BOGO, and so far, that has played out fairly well for me. Warner has yet to be a part of of any of these sales so I assume there stance is the same as Universal and Paramount. A BOGO every 2-3 months is fine, but every other week? Insane.[/quote]

The same can be said for anything, Hell, Gears of war came out in november and hten black friday target had it for 48$. If you wait for anything it will eventually go on sale, and I Think the statement "Every other week" is exaggerating it a little bit, excluding hte holidays in which everyone has sales.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Apparently there is some set of rules that both formats must adhere to, even if it sacrifices potential marketshare. I don't see how any consumer can see BOGOs as a bad thing. Anything that can build up my movie collection for cheap is a great thing. I realize it is done to help BDA gain marketshare, but what company DOESN'T have that ultimate goal?[/quote]

i actually meant that to be a knock on Gizmo since it contradicts that HD was supposed be the cheaper brand...guess i should word it better
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']Because if Nintendo decided to sell Mario Galaxy for $50 and then 2-3 weeks later have it be $20 every week people would stop buying the games at $50 and wait for the $20 sale. This is exactly what the BDA is doing with there movies. Why buy a movie today for $25-30 when it will be $10-15 2-3 weeks later? The BDA is conditioning people to "wait" for these sales and in term will lose profit and the weekly Nielsens if it continues. Ive held off buying several titles and wait for the BOGO, and so far, that has played out fairly well for me. Warner has yet to be a part of of any of these sales so I assume there stance is the same as Universal and Paramount. A BOGO every 2-3 months is fine, but every other week? Insane.[/QUOTE]

I would love it if Nintendo did that. Video games are kinda the opposite though. They take a loss on the hardware (except nintendo) in order to gain market share and sell more software. Same idea. I'm surprised you are so shocked at this strategy. It's pretty common for business to take losses in one area, if they can afford it, and feel it will lead to profit in the long run. It's the main reason the 360 exists too. The xbox lost MS a lot of money yet they still made another. Are they crazy? Nope. They are smart and know what they are doing. Because of their short term losses, they have now created a pretty successful console.

Anyway, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You may not like discounted movies (which makes me wonder what you are doing on CHEAPASSgamer.com), but that should discount the fact that BD is leading in both hardware and software and is, therefore, superior.
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']The same can be said for anything, Hell, Gears of war came out in november and hten black friday target had it for 48$. If you wait for anything it will eventually go on sale, and I Think the statement "Every other week" is exaggerating it a little bit, excluding hte holidays in which everyone has sales.[/QUOTE]

A $12 savings (8%) vs 50%? Not even close.

Exaggerating? Have you seen the sales? Its been EVERY OTHER WEEK for the past 2 months (if not every other), no doubt about it. Hell, I'm sure a quick glance through my Fry's receipts will prove that or the BR Sales thread. Frys had TWO different BOGO sales just last week!
 
[quote name='Jedi1979']i actually meant that to be a knock on Gizmo since it contradicts that HD was supposed be the cheaper brand...guess i should word it better[/QUOTE]

Lol.. I caught that. I was knocking on him too. It's kinda hard to portray sarcasm on the internet though.
 
By the way, with all this BOGO talk, I'm wondering how much it actually costs to produce a BD movie. I'd imagine costs were about the same as a DVD but instead of the few cents the actual DVD costs, they spend a little more for a BD disc. Unless there are other costs I am overlooking. If that's it, then I imagine a BD movie wouldn't be much more to produce than a DVD movie.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']A $12 savings (8%) vs 50%? Not even close.

Exaggerating? Have you seen the sales? Its been EVERY OTHER WEEK for the past 2 months (if not every other), no doubt about it. Hell, I'm sure a quick glance through my Fry's receipts will prove that or the BR Sales thread. Frys had TWO different BOGO sales just last week![/quote]
That's ONE STORE. How many retailer-wide sales have their been?

and Dpatel, I can't imagine the physical medium costing more than a dollar to produce. I think DVD's are down to something like 15-25 cents.
 
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