Format War - HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray - *Its Over...Toshiba Swings White Flag*

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[quote name='H.Cornerstone']and Dpatel, I can't imagine the physical medium costing more than a dollar to produce. I think DVD's are down to something like 15-25 cents.[/QUOTE]

Yea. I don't feel like looking it up, but I remember reading that BDs were really only marginally more expensive to produce than DVDs. Unless there are some other costs involved with producing a BD over a DVD, I can't really see the reason for the $10-15 mark up (aside from demand).
 
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Quite a bit more expensive. This place charges 48 cents per DVD-5 and 66 cents per DVD-9 in quantities of 10,000. That does not, of course, count mastering costs, which are exponentially higher for HDM.
 
Any other costs that would make hi-def movies $10-$15 more expensive, in general?

EDIT: Ah, I see. I saw your edit. Figured there was something I was overlooking.
 
I can't believe someone can go knocking off sales as something negative. It's been all Fry's and Amazon with the BOGO's, and DD did it once as well as Best Buy. I don't keep track of all the sales so forgive me if I missed something.

If Target, Best Buy, Suncoast, Sam Goody, FYE, Costco, and all other media/electronic stores kept doing this, not to mention all the on-line stores, THEN we would have something to discuss.

I would honestly be more irritated if I saw NO SALES AT ALL. THE ONLY way to make as big a dent as possible in the market is to DROP PRICES. If supply is high and demand is low, you LOWER the price, if supply is low (which would never be the case unless OOP occured) and demand is high, you RAISE the price.

It's friggin' logics.

Blu Ray hasn't been around as long, so logically their hardware wouldn't be able to easily counter the price drops on HD-DVD players. This is the one thing Blu Ray has going against it.

If this format debaccle doesn't end soon enough, both formats will reach a cost-production that will be suitable for the consumers and THEN we will have an annoying stalemate, and then the only way to get rid of that would be who has more studio support. From what I've read, my understanding is that Blu Ray has more Studio support, so they have that on their side.

I'm too busy watching football, so I lost my train of thought >.>
 
[quote name='geko29']
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Quite a bit more expensive. This place charges 48 cents per DVD-5 and 66 cents per DVD-9 in quantities of 10,000. That does not, of course, count mastering costs, which are exponentially higher for HDM.[/quote]
With those numbers HD DVD could totally drop the MSRP down to lets say $20 which in turn they would sell for about $15 on release day at Best Buy, Circuit City and Target and even if its a discount like that on relase week, it would be a major gain. I like how they say its cheaper to manufacture discs on HD DVD but why doesn't the consumer see this on the software side? Doing so would be a major blow to the war, the 99-199 hardware sales alone made a huge difference.

Sometimes I think we analyze more shit on this thread than Toshiba and/or Sony.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']With those numbers HD DVD could totally drop the MSRP down to lets say $20 which in turn they would sell for about $15 on release day at Best Buy, Circuit City and Target and even if its a discount like that on relase week, it would be a major gain. I like how they say its cheaper to manufacture discs on HD DVD but why doesn't the consumer see this on the software side? Doing so would be a major blow to the war, the 99-199 hardware sales alone made a huge difference.[/QUOTE]

You do realize you are talking about a difference of 15 cents. I'm not sure how other costs compare, but if you're basing this on the few cents more that BD costs per disc, then it won't really affect consumer prices all that much.
 
[quote name='Inf^Shini']I can't believe someone can go knocking off sales as something negative.[/QUOTE]

Someone who also frequents a site dedicated to cheap deals. He must hate it here.
 
[quote name='rsigley']do amazon sales even count towards nielson video counts?[/quote] Yes. They didn't used to 3-4 years ago, but they most certainly do now. I'm too busy atm to go dig up the links, but Amazon is on the official list of suppliers, and several Nielsen representatives have confirmed that they are included.
 
[quote name='Inf^Shini']Blu Ray hasn't been around as long, so logically their hardware wouldn't be able to easily counter the price drops on HD-DVD players. This is the one thing Blu Ray has going against it.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. Newer and more expensive technology. Price will be decreasing pretty soon though, as HD-DVD really doesn't have much room to budge, as far as lowering prices goes. BD, on the other hand, has plenty of room to breathe.
 
[quote name='geko29']
replicationcosts1.PNG


Quite a bit more expensive. This place charges 48 cents per DVD-5 and 66 cents per DVD-9 in quantities of 10,000. That does not, of course, count mastering costs, which are exponentially higher for HDM.[/quote]

What exactly do you mean by mastering costs?
 
[quote name='dpatel']Someone who also frequents a site dedicated to cheap deals. He must hate it here.[/quote]
Haha, seriously, I wouldn't have had a good Blu Ray collection if they didn't have these sales.

If my mentality of cheap=good represents the mentality of the majority of consumers, then yea, Blu Ray looks really good. That, I think, is the "What and Why" of all the Blu Ray sales.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Indeed. Newer and more expensive technology. Price will be decreasing pretty soon though, as HD-DVD really doesn't have much room to budge, as far as lowering prices goes. BD, on the other hand, has plenty of room to breathe.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that HD DVD can't get any lower? Would you provide a link showing this? I find it hard to believe that this technology can't get cheaper and continue to do so.
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']What exactly do you mean by mastering costs?[/quote]
Audio/video encoding, menu creation, interactive features, AACS registration/coding, creating a glass master.

Most of those costs are unkown to us plebs, but we have gotten some insight on a couple of them. Getting an AACS key costs a certain annual registration fee (I think it's $25k/year, but it might be more, memory is a bit fuzzy), plus a per-disc charge (99% sure it's $5k). Now granted, that doesn't seem like much, but there's never just one. During the mastering process, multiple "check discs" need to be made--and each requires a NEW AACS key. Number of discs used varies, it's pretty much never less than 5, never more than 100, and usually winds up in the 10-30 range. If your particular title requires 20 check discs, that's $100k right there.

Glass masters used to cost $15k, but I think they might be under $10k now. Again, just going on memory from info posted by the president of R&B Films in the insider's thread over on AVS.
 
[quote name='munch']Are you saying that HD DVD can't get any lower? Would you provide a link showing this? I find it hard to believe that this technology can't get cheaper and continue to do so.[/QUOTE]

I know they can get lower, but they've dropped about $300-$400 this past year. I'm just saying they won't have the ability to drop as much as quickly as they have been. Obviously prices will continue to drop. All technology does so. But they've hit the $200 price range, and don't have as much room to drop any more.
 
[quote name='dpatel']I know they can get lower, but they've dropped about $300-$400 this past year. I'm just saying they won't have the ability to drop as much as quickly as they have been. Obviously prices will continue to drop. All technology does so. But they've hit the $200 price range, and don't have as much room to drop any more.[/QUOTE]

So you're assuming that they won't go lower rather than using empirical data to show why, correct? It looks to me that they can go a lot lower if they want. I'm not saying they will, but you shouldn't generalize and say they can't. The A3, for example, could very well sell for under $150, just as those cheap Chinese players are going to be.
 
[quote name='munch']So you're assuming that they won't go lower rather than using empirical data to show why, correct? It looks to me that they can go a lot lower if they want. I'm not saying they will, but you shouldn't generalize and say they can't. The A3, for example, could very well sell for under $150, just as those cheap Chinese players are going to be.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying they WONT drop at all. I'm saying they won't be able to drop AS MUCH as they have in the past, nor will they be able to drop in price as quickly either. Meaning HD-DVD dropped about $300-$400 since last xmas, but they definitely won't have the ability to drop $300-$400 more (unless they want to pay people to take players).
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone'] And yes, you are missing out a bunch of awesome games. Resistance, Motorstorm, Warhawk, Ratchet and Clank, Super Stardust HD, Heavenly Sword, GT5: Prologue, Unreal Tourny 3 and Uncharted are all awesome games, plus Little Big Planet, Killzone 2 and MGS 4 all coming next year.[/QUOTE]

I guess you magically like shooters only when it comes to Resistance , Killzone 2 , & Unreal Tourny 3.

[quote name='Chris in Cali']I don't see how at this point anyone can say the PS3 doesn't have a good games. Uncharted alone is a 100% must own, Ratchet and Clank is good, Motorstorm is good, not to mention Oblivion which is one of my favorite games of all time and has quicker load times and less lag on the PS3.[/QUOTE]

I don't think any game is worth $360 - $460 + tax + Dual Shock 3 price .

[quote name='Sporadic']He's right when he says that they aren't going to have a massive effect since most parents buy Disney movies for their kids to watch in their room (which is usually on one of those horrible 15" TV/DVD combo things not a HDTV with a Blu-Ray player hooked to it)[/QUOTE]

The most truthful parent/child theory . Oh no ! Little Timmy has to watch upscaled movies . Boo fucking hoo .
 
I agree with you in concept dpatel, but think your insistence on dollar value hurts your argument. Percentage is probably a better choice. Using that metric, HD DVD players have dropped 60% in average street price this year, and 80% for doorbuster sales. Therefore, if $200 is the new $500, we have to ask if in the next 10 months or so, a standalone HD DVD player will be regularly offered at $80, with occasional limited sales at $40. I submit that this is incredibly unlikely.
 
Toshiba has dug themselves in a hole with these low cost players.
Myke is right, who else is going to step up and actually start producing HD DVD players now that they can't really compete with the low prices?

On the BD side, there's a healthy choice of CEs competing against each other, and introducing new models and so forth.

Someone noted this about the Samsung combo player at another forum:
And don't even start with the Samsung dual-format player. It's actually manufactured by Toshiba Samsung Storage Technologies (TSST) which is 51% owned by Toshiba. You could actually say then that Toshiba is manufacturing a Blu-ray player.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='geko29']I agree with you in concept dpatel, but think your insistence on dollar value hurts your argument. Percentage is probably a better choice. Using that metric, HD DVD players have dropped 60% in average street price this year, and 80% for doorbuster sales. Therefore, if $200 is the new $500, we have to ask if in the next 10 months or so, a standalone HD DVD player will be regularly offered at $80, with occasional limited sales at $40. I submit that this is incredibly unlikely.[/QUOTE]

Good point. The reason I had originally brought it up was to illustrate that the price difference between BD and HD players will continue to diminish seeing as how BD has more room to drop in price than HD (looking at pure dollar values, and not percentages). But yea, I see your point. While an $80 price tag would only be a $120 price drop, I think it would have a much more significant impact on sales. But, the original reason I was using dollar values was to compare the large gap in price between BD and HD players, and the fact that it will, most likely, be less and less of a factor.
 
Stopped at Wal-Mart this evening at noticed that the A3 was $298 and the Sony BDP-S300 was $388. Looking online, they only have the A2 at $248 and the BDP-S300 at $348. Standalone parity (not counting sales) is even closer. FWIW, of course.
 
[quote name='Richlough']I guess you magically like shooters only when it comes to Resistance , Killzone 2 , & Unreal Tourny 3.



I don't think any game is worth $360 - $460 + tax + Dual Shock 3 price .



The most truthful parent/child theory . Oh no ! Little Timmy has to watch upscaled movies . Boo fucking hoo .[/quote]
Who was saying I was looking forward to those or games I plan on purchasing? Those are just some of the biggest titles coming out for the PS3 within the next couple of months to year. But yes, I enjoyed Resistance and have always liked playing UT at my bro's lan parties, but seeing how UT won't support PC play, I won't be getting it. I am a pc gamer at heart and will always like KB+m over controller, which is why I don't care about shooters.
And if your 2nd point is correct, than there is no such thing as a system seller and proves all arguments wrong about any system having "more". And I agree no game is worth the price of a console (except Super Mario Galaxy, God of War or SSMB. :)), which is why I have always like Sony's strategy on relying on a multitude of games rather than MS advertise Halo until it's engrained into your brain strategy.

And I have beaten a dead horse on the Disney argument and am no longer going into it.

And ahh I see Geko, stupid protection! Ahh well, kind of sucks that something so expensive is so easily cracked. :roll:
And I wonder if Sony does the glass mastering and the Metal mastering or is the metal simply a new method of glass mastering?

And Linkin, theoritically both sides could drop their prices drastically, especially fox and their stupid 40$ MSRP.
 
[quote name='Richlough']I don't think any game is worth $360 - $460 + tax + Dual Shock 3 price.[/QUOTE]

I really hate to keep this argument going, but how much did you pay for your 360?
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']theoritically both sides could drop their prices drastically, especially fox and paramount and their stupid 40$ MSRP.[/quote]
Fixed it for you. :)
 
[quote name='geko29']Fixed it for you. :)[/quote]

LAWL, a real fix would be Fox/MGM and Paramount, but yes you are correct.
And anyone besides me it's ridiculous that new release DVD's are still 16-20$? They should be like 12-15$ by now.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I really hate to keep this argument going, but how much did you pay for your 360?[/QUOTE]

The launch price was $399 , I used about $250 in Gamerush credit towards it .

I see what you're getting at , but I didn't buy my 360 with all of my chips riding on one game .

He said ...

[quote name='Chris in Cali']I don't see how at this point anyone can say the PS3 doesn't have a good games. Uncharted alone is a 100% must own, Ratchet and Clank is good, Motorstorm is good, not to mention Oblivion which is one of my favorite games of all time and has quicker load times and less lag on the PS3.[/QUOTE]

So that's what I was replying to .

But then again he also said ...

[quote name='Chris in Cali']I personally am pulling for HD-DVD because it has a lot more movies I like compared to Blu-Ray, and it's a cheaper.[/QUOTE]
 
No, it was a rather convoluted process. I got the Core from Amazon for $100 last Thanksgiving, sold it on eFence for I think $315 + shipping. Then went to Micro Center and bought the Premium for $399 less $100 MIR less $100 for signing up for their credit card. My shipping charge and the extra $15 from the auction covered eFence fees, Paypal fees, and tax from the purchase.

Looking back on my charges from then, I see that the shipping didn't QUITE cover everything. I actually paid $2.25 for my Premium, when all was said and done. Well, $2.64 if you count the stamp I used to send the rebate in. :)
 
[quote name='geko29']No, it was a rather convoluted process. I got the Core from Amazon for $100 last Thanksgiving, sold it on eFence for I think $315 + shipping. Then went to Micro Center and bought the Premium for $399 less $100 MIR less $100 for signing up for their credit card. My shipping charge and the extra $15 from the auction covered eFence fees, Paypal fees, and tax from the purchase.

Looking back on my charges from then, I see that the shipping didn't QUITE cover everything. I actually paid $2.25 for my Premium, when all was said and done. Well, $2.64 if you count the stamp I used to send the rebate in. :)[/quote]
Dude, $2.64, such a rip-off :p

I'm waiting on a good deal for the Elite.
 
[quote name='dpatel']You do realize you are talking about a difference of 15 cents. I'm not sure how other costs compare, but if you're basing this on the few cents more that BD costs per disc, then it won't really affect consumer prices all that much.[/quote]

Is it just .15 cents? I may have read it wrong but I assumed the setup fee's were per title + the fee per disc.
replicationcosts1.PNG
 
Oh ok.. you may be right. For some reason, I read that as the total for a batch of discs, with the second figure breaking it down to 'per disc costs'. Looking at it again, I believe you are right.
 
[quote name='geko29']What's a DVD? :D[/quote]

dvd's can burn in hell... ewwww

anyways i seriously need to get into selling stuff on ebay..i have bought so many things lately.. plus im still looking out for an onkyo

do they sell it with the speakers by any chance?

i also have to figure out a way to fix my current jvc..
 
[quote name='guyver2077']dvd's can burn in hell... ewwww

anyways i seriously need to get into selling stuff on ebay..i have bought so many thigns lately.. plus im still looking out for an onkyo[/quote]

Yea, same here, I'm treading a fine line on my spending limit >.>
 
[quote name='guyver2077']dvd's can burn in hell... ewwww[/QUOTE]

Long live the VCD!


Since it's pretty much the same group here, did anyone score anything on BF?
 
[quote name='guyver2077']hell no.. crappy 352x240 res

:)

they were the shit though in the dreamcast days[/QUOTE]

I loves me some Dreamcast. Long live the freak fishstick, Seaman!
 
From Onkyo

Originally Posted by Onkyo UK Customer Service
Many thanks for choosing Onkyo.

I don't know the origins of the rumours floating around the internet currently.

The actual facts are that we only brought a limited amount of this DVD player into Europe as our colleagues in the USA took the lion's share. It is a "when it's gone, it's gone" product, but we certainly aren't withdrawing it.

We are delighted with the performance of the player, and it is available at most of our key customers.

Hope this helps.

Kind Regards,

David Anderson
General Manager
Click to expand...

:roll: at a translation off of Blu-ray.com
 
So what's the cheapest price for a good HDMI audio receiver with TrueHD support...etc.? I see you guys talking about the Onyoko but 700-900 is too rich for my blood right now. Any good cheap receivers out there in the 200-300 range? Or is it too soon to ask for that kind of a price?
 
I'm not sure what the cheapest 1.1 receiver is (which would get you LPCM sound from your player, geko?), but the cheapest 1.3 receiver which decodes hi-rez tracks themselves is the Onkyo 605, which is the $350-$450 range depending on sale.

EDIT:You can get the Harman Kardon 247 for less than 3 bills refurbished on ebay from the authorized HK retailer.
It's 1.1 so you can send LPCM to it.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']From Onkyo



:roll: at a translation off of Blu-ray.com[/QUOTE]

:lol:

I'll see your :roll: and raise you a :roll: for your inability to successfully interpret what Onkyo means by "when it's gone, it's gone."

So :roll:.
 
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