How can someone be both pro-choice and anti-death penalty?

GuilewasNK

GuilewasNK

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I know this is going to be a subject people are passionate on, but I just want to get opinions, perspective, and generate dialogue. All I ask is that people maintain some degree of civility when making your points.

I had a discussion about this with my sister and she falls into this category. I asked her to explain how she could support death in one case in not in another and she really didn't offer much other than that is how she feels. Now I know some people will say life begins at different points, but an abortion prevents life as does an execution IMO. Also, I know that neither situation is always black and white. There's always circumstances beyond the end result that need to be factored in most of the time. I really don't have a view on abortion other than education being provided on the subject to someone considering it. If it's legal, then it's legal and that is a decision an individual will have to make for themselves and that how I feel about both subjects. That being said, discussion should always be open and frank about both IMO because both of the decisions are irreversible.

I personally have no problem with the death penalty, PROVIDED there is irrefutable evidence (DNA, video, etc.) that the accused is guilty. That being said, I don't know how often that is the case. It is something that should used with extreme caution though IMO.

I guess I would say that I am pro both for the most part.

Let me end this by saying that my last girlfriend had an abortion (this was before she met me). She was nervous about telling me, but I simply told her that it was before she met me and her decision and it wouldn't be right for me to judge her, and I appreciated the fact that she did decide to tell me. I guess she was scared about what I would think of her. I think if she had a pattern of having multiple ones then obviously I'd be concerned, but that wasn't the case.
 
Yes.

Remember:

There are people who do not like abortions who never the less do not want them outlawed, they are pro choice.

There are people who agree with the concept of the death penalty but recognize the ahem flaws in execution, they are anti death penalty.

It is perfectly rational and non contradictory.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Yes.

Remember:

There are people who do not like abortions who never the less do not want them outlawed, they are pro choice.

There are people who agree with the concept of the death penalty but recognize the ahem flaws in execution, they are anti death penalty.

It is perfectly rational and non contradictory.[/quote]

I can agree with those thoughts being arrived at rationally, but I don't see how they are non-contradictory when the end result is the same. It's kind of like the old apples and oranges argument IMO. They are both fruit.
 
I'll take a stab at it.

Murderers deserve the death penalty. Someone who has an abortion is a murderer. Therefore, someone who has an abortion deserves death.

EDIT: I read the thread title backwards.
 
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[quote name='sblymnlcrymnl']Because all life is precious ... until it's not. :lol:[/QUOTE]
:lol:

[quote name='msut77']
There are people who do not like abortions who never the less do not want them outlawed, they are pro choice.[/quote]

I wish as many people as pro-choicers had the same stance about guns.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']:lol:



I wish more of those same people had the same stance about guns.[/quote]


In regards to guns, my father was in the miltary so I have been around them. Personally, I don't need or want one right now. If I am in a situation that I would need one, I'm most likely fucked to begin with. That isn't to say I couldn't change if my environment changes though.

Anyone that really wants one will find it if it is illegal or not anyway. Making something illegal doesn't stop people from anything if they really want it bad enough.
 
Because people are wrongfully convicted far too often.

It's one thing to send an innocent person to prison leaving them with a chance to wait until their innocence can be proven. It's another to wrongfully sentence an innocent person to death.

Edit: Suppose I should elaborate before I get "..but a baby is innocent"

I'm only anti-death penalty for fear of innocent people being wrongfully sentenced to death.
But I'm pro choice because it should be up to the woman if she wants to go through the hell of pregnancy depending on health effects, if the child is going to be taken care of (foster care is not a fair alternative.) I see a lot of pro-lifers unwilling to adopt. Not to mention, rape, incest, etc.
 
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[quote name='lilboo']Just like blacks strugglin for rights, then voting against gay marriage :cool:[/quote]

That's black men. Black men generally despise gay people more than any other race's male collective.

I guess another example would be reaching a milestone in voting a man President who not so long ago was finally given rights and considered an equal, while taking rights away from another group of Americans. Like what was said on Bill Maher the other night: these fuckheads that voted against gay marriage can't differentiate between civil unions and marriage. Joe Fudgepack wants inheritance, hospital visitation rights, joint tax returns, etc. He doesn't care about the religious end of it, primarily because of religions persecution of gays. That's why gays run to city hall, they don't arrange marriages.
 
I'm pro-choice, though not pro-abortion.

Personally I'm against the death penalty for two reasons - I don't really think the state should be able to have people killed (which is more of a minor point for me, I realize there are juries and what-not, but that doesn't entirely remove the thought) and you can't bring back the dead if it turns out they were innocent.

I don't really have a philosophical problem with killing a murderer (though not in every case), it's the possibility of error that makes me against it most.

So I don't think they conflict if that's the rationale.
 
It can be argued that a fetus until a certain point is not a human being, it can't think or feel, and it has no consciousness, awareness, or any mental functions until the 3rd trimester. Meanwhile, murderers are fully conscious and aware regardless of their crimes.

Though I'm both pro choice (except for late term) and pro death penalty.
 
Not all death penalty victims have committed crimes that involve murder.
For an example, if you're in possession of 50,000 marijuana plants or more, you can be convicted to die at the chair.
Plus, I don't think anyone should have the right to take another person's life, even if they did commit many murders. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I'm pro-choice because I don't think life begins until the baby is actually born. In my eyes the baby is a parasite (for a lack of a better word) until it is out from the mother's womb and after it is out, all of the rights of being an American citizen come with it.
 
id say that some people might argue that a fetus doesnt have a choice in whether they live or die. whereas a death row inmate has lived and made his choice to commit his crime and thus earn his sentence.

my stance on abortion and the death penalty are similar in that i support them but dont like them. id consider myself prochoice... legally. but morally id never advocate and personally think it should be a last resort (ie medical, rape, insect etc). i think adoption is a better option.

i also support the death penalty, but in very few cases and only for the most extreme of crimes.
 
I'm pretty pro-death - a leather jacket wearing, meat eating, pro-choice, pro-gun rights, pro-death penalty, pro-euthenasia dude.

But I try very hard to only eat animals that were killed humanely and I'm also anti-war.

I think a nuanced opinion is the hallmark of intelligence. If someone has a two-dimensional view of issues such that they think you have to come down one side all the time, they're just not reasoning it through.
 
Pro choice doesn't mean you are for abortion. It just means you think people should decide for themselves and the government shouldn't have a say in that decision.
 
Easy I'm not going to have an abortion, so I don't care if it is legal or not.

However there is a chance I can be found guilty of something I didn't do, and be killed.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']It can be argued that a fetus until a certain point is not a human being, it can't think or feel, and it has no consciousness, awareness, or any mental functions until the 3rd trimester. Meanwhile, murderers are fully conscious and aware regardless of their crimes.

Though I'm both pro choice (except for late term) and pro death penalty.[/quote]

See, the only problem with that is Terri Schiavo fits most of that description as well, yet there was an uproar when the husband wanted to take her off life support. I realize that is a tangent, but I think its a reasonable comparison.

Now that I think about it, I should have included euthanasia in the topic as well. I find the differing views on these types of deaths interesting (albeit morbid).
 
I think the uproar about Terry Schiavo was that her parents didn't want to take her off life support but her husband did. So, battles over who had the right to decide ensued.
 
The criminal justice system is flawed and taking someone's life is a finality. That is why I am against the death penalty. Plus it is too much like revenge for my tastes and I think having to be confined to prison for life is a much harsher punishment.

As far as why I am pro-choice. It isn't any of my damn business what a woman does with her body.

It isn't hard. One is a women's rights issue, the other is a criminal justice one.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']I can agree with those thoughts being arrived at rationally, but I don't see how they are non-contradictory when the end result is the same. It's kind of like the old apples and oranges argument IMO. They are both fruit.[/QUOTE]

Some people do not like abortions, it offends peoples sensibilities, they are kind of gross and represent a possible loss of potential. But people recognize either A) there is a difference between an apple seed and an apple to use a fruit analogy or even B) Anti-choice laws are the first step to putting women in burkas, women should have control over their lives and bodies.

I say it is non contradictory because being pro choice and anti death penalty recognize that the world is not perfect. Judges and Juries make mistakes and that women who have been put into difficult situations since forever sometimes have to make a tough decision.
 
Since we are on the topic of abortion and it being a choice.

Why is it that it's like perfectly fine for a woman to say OH HELLLLLZ NO and have an abortion, but when some dude knocks her up.. he's WRONG for leaving?

I mean, why shouldn't dad have a say in the matter? I am sure there HAVE been cases where the dad WANTED the baby, but mom was like "..No" and got it aborted.. Yet, had it been the other way around he would have been a dead beat. :roll:
 
[quote name='lilboo']Since we are on the topic of abortion and it being a choice.

Why is it that it's like perfectly fine for a woman to say OH HELLLLLZ NO and have an abortion, but when some dude knocks her up.. he's WRONG for leaving?

I mean, why shouldn't dad have a say in the matter? I am sure there HAVE been cases where the dad WANTED the baby, but mom was like "..No" and got it aborted.. Yet, had it been the other way around he would have been a dead beat. :roll:[/quote]

Well in one there is no baby, in the other you're abandoning a baby. So there's a difference.

So long as women are the only ones able to have children they get control over that.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Some people do not like abortions, it offends peoples sensibilities, they are kind of gross and represent a possible loss of potential. But people recognize either A) there is a difference between an apple seed and an apple to use a fruit analogy or even B) Anti-choice laws are the first step to putting women in burkas, women should have control over their lives and bodies.

I say it is non contradictory because being pro choice and anti death penalty recognize that the world is not perfect. Judges and Juries make mistakes and that women who have been put into difficult situations since forever sometimes have to make a tough decision.[/quote]

It's time for Alan Keyes (oh and some guy named Obama also makes an appearance):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyOL8TxtexM

To add to Ambassador Keyes' argument, we can make a distinction that a criminal has (assuming a just legal process) put himself into a state of war against society through his or her actions. However, a child in a womb is incapable of such an action (kind of like the concept of cretins, a term originally used to describe those with congenital hypothyroidism who were stunted in growth and mentally retarded to such a degree that they were considered to be incapable of sin... thus the term cretin, or "Christ-like.")

I see how one can argue about killing another human being in retaliation for a crime. However, I do not see how anyone can argue that it is right to kill one who is incapable of sin. We simply state that they are not "human" yet in the womb in order to make the concept more palatable. Yet, is it really different that killing a newborn... after all, it's a woman's choice, right? What if she decides she doesn't want the kid after it's born?
 
[quote name='BigT']What if she decides she doesn't want the kid after it's born?[/quote]

She gives it up for adoption?
 
BigT, I do not give a fuck what Alan Keyes says.

His 15 minutes ended long ago, he even jumped on the loony bandwagon asserting Obama is not a citizen.

Now for what you said, I am not arguing either way about the death penalty in theory right or wrong but in practice with there being many examples of human error.
 
[quote name='lilboo']Since we are on the topic of abortion and it being a choice.

Why is it that it's like perfectly fine for a woman to say OH HELLLLLZ NO and have an abortion, but when some dude knocks her up.. he's WRONG for leaving?

I mean, why shouldn't dad have a say in the matter? I am sure there HAVE been cases where the dad WANTED the baby, but mom was like "..No" and got it aborted.. Yet, had it been the other way around he would have been a dead beat. :roll:[/quote]

I remember an issue about mens rights in this situation on CNN last year or so. I think I posted a bit about it here.

[quote name='SpazX']Well in one there is no baby, in the other you're abandoning a baby. So there's a difference.

So long as women are the only ones able to have children they get control over that.[/quote]

Until women can have a baby without the need of a man's sperm I disagree.

Also, abortion is an abandoning of what would be a lifeform if you let nature take its course. If a women doesn't want that financial responsibility she doesn't have to accept it, she can abort. If man doesn't want it he has no choice. Not to mention, there are cases where women lie about the man being the daddy, they get served to go to court, can't make it for whatever reason, they are made to pay child suppport, the have a DNA test later that comfirms they AREN'T the father and still have to pay until the child is 18 even though they aren't the biological.

Now, that being said. People have to pretty irresponsible for this to occur, that includes the man AND woman. Quite frankly this won't apply to the majority of us.

There plenty of cases where a deadbeat dad deserves what he gets, but the system is in no way fair. It's heavily skewed to the woman. I know more than one woman in the area I live in who finds stupid ass men who to knocked them up to get a check because they know the system favors them no matter what. This one dumb SOB my brother-in-law used to work with had 6 kids with six different women. He derserved to be in child support hell. :lol:
 
Because abortions are going to happen, whether legally or illegally.

Nobody high-fives each other when abortions happen.

I'm "pro-choice." I would never have an abortion, and would be furious if my spouse wanted to have one. I think they're vulgar, disgusting, lazy, and extremely irresponsible. But I'm pro-choice by default because I won't tell you that you must agree with me. Instead, I'd rather the discussion simply refocus to diminishing unwanted pregnancies, which is a more important issue that would help reduce abortions indirectly (compared to outlawing them, which would be a more direct approach).
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']I think we can all agree that we wish women could find a better form of birth control.[/QUOTE] fuck that I want effective male birth control. You better believe I'd never miss a day. :lol:
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']I think we can all agree that we wish women could find a better form of birth control.[/quote]


Anal. Nature's contraceptive. :lol:
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']I think we can all agree that we wish women could find a better form of birth control.[/QUOTE]

It's called a "Mouth"
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Because abortions are going to happen, whether legally or illegally.

Nobody high-fives each other when abortions happen.

I'm "pro-choice." I would never have an abortion, and would be furious if my spouse wanted to have one. I think they're vulgar, disgusting, lazy, and extremely irresponsible. But I'm pro-choice by default because I won't tell you that you must agree with me. Instead, I'd rather the discussion simply refocus to diminishing unwanted pregnancies, which is a more important issue that would help reduce abortions indirectly (compared to outlawing them, which would be a more direct approach).[/quote]

This. Sort of. Irresponsible? Yes. But I personally wouldn't judge someone- spouse or otherwise- if they did. But that's just me; I agree with the idea of promoting ways to proactively reducing unwanted pregnancy (fuck you abstinence-only education) but not with restricting abortion.

Ethically, the partner in the relationship ought to have a say in whether or not the abortion happens, but it shouldn't be required. For me, part of it is that it doesn't so much come down to ending a life as it is relieving the mandate for a woman from being forced to give birth, something that shouldn't happen under any circumstances. For the state to mandate childbirth is fucking ridiculous.

I'm so split on the death penalty. On one hand, two wrongs don't make a right, and state-sanctioned execution makes my stomach turn. On the other, some criminals do abhorrent things, and the likelihood of rehabilitation is slim to none. Their contribution to society can only go down from there. That being said, I think the fucking rednecks who want to fry everyone who trespasses on their lawn are fucking idiots. Then again, fucking idiots applies to rednecks in general anyway. ;)



Also, about Terry Schiavo- that's the reason I have a DNR. :lol:
 
The state is not an individual. It cannot be sued for bad choices and cannot in any meaningful way be held accountable for its actions. Therefore, it should not make decisions regarding the creating and/or taking of life.

An individual is wholly responsible for their own decisions. It can be sued for bad choices and can be held accountable for its actions. Therefore, it should be able to make personal decisions regarding the creating and/or taking of life.
 
[quote name='lordwow']How can someone be both pro-life and pro-death penalty?[/quote]


That a good question as well.

Although, I think the common response would be that the fetus is an innocent that is incapable of defending itself or speaking on it's on behalf in regards to its existence and that some people are so dangerous or heinous that even keeping them locked up for life isn't desirous (Saddam Hussein is a recent example).

I think most people would at least be open to the option of abortion in cases of incest, rape, or danger to mother as opposed to incovenience to ones lifestyle.
 
These are complicated issues. I'm pro-choice generally but pro-life personally. I'm pro death penalty all the time. In fact, punishment for committing violent crimes should be much harsher, IMO. Well, not harsher than death because that would be kind of tough but harsher in the sense that if you shoot someone maybe the punishment is they amputate a leg. Kind of like bullets costing $5,000 each.
 
[quote name='javeryh']These are complicated issues. I'm pro-choice generally but pro-life personally. I'm pro death penalty all the time. In fact, punishment for committing violent crimes should be much harsher, IMO. Well, not harsher than death because that would be kind of tough but harsher in the sense that if you shoot someone maybe the punishment is they amputate a leg. Kind of like bullets costing $5,000 each.[/quote]

Someone's been watching Chris Rock! :D

In regards to amputation as punishment, wasn't that in the Code of Hammurabi?
 
How can someone be pro-life and anti-death penalty.

You want to force mothers to raise unwanted children and save the lives of serial killers. Yeah, that's going to make society a better place.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']It can be argued that a fetus until a certain point is not a human being, it can't think or feel, and it has no consciousness, awareness, or any mental functions until the 3rd trimester. Meanwhile, murderers are fully conscious and aware regardless of their crimes.

Though I'm both pro choice (except for late term) and pro death penalty.[/QUOTE]

That's my explanation for my pro-choice anti-death penalty stance as well.

Though my anti-death penalty stance is more just feeling the government shouldn't have the power to kill it's citizens (people don't give up their life as part of the social contract, just the least possible portion of their freedom), the risk of executing innocent and lack of evidence of a deterrent effect rather than any empathy for murderers being conscious and aware etc.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Someone's been watching Chris Rock! :D[/quote]

Exactly. As funny as it was he kind of made a lot of sense.
 
In Abortion I consider myself Pro-Life in my heart and Pro-Choice in my head.

What I mean by this statement is I'd prefer Abortion not happen in general but it's going to and I recognize that and am not in DENIAL like some Religious folks are that the minute you outlaw Abortion it goes away. Past this it's a woman's right to her body and ultimately her choice. However if she is irresponsible and doesn't use Birth Control I am revolted and disgusted by her choice and how irresponsible she's acted. Now if she uses Birth Control, is raped, will die possibly giving birth I truly no see no issue there as they're all valid reasons. The first shows foresight and an active intent NOT to be pregnant. The second the choice is being FORCED on her. The 3rd is quite obvious, she's saving her life.
What disgusts me are to some none of these reasons matter. She's pregnant and that babies rights supersede hers. "Shut up bitch you're a baby incubator now!" is their attitude.
As for the difference between the Death Penalty and Abortion we're talking about an individual not someone serving as an incubator or gestating a fetus if you will.
I'm Anti-Death Penalty and I think I outlined above how it's different then being Pro-Choice. As for why I have a multitude of reasons: 1.If they got life and you murder them you're just as bad. 2.Given all the costs of appeals it's cheaper to have them serve life. 3.The emotional anguish the guards go through who have to kill them. This alone should be more then enough reason to stop the Death Penalty. It rips these people apart emotionally. As much as some might believe otherwise murder is not in regular human nature except in self defense. I'd argue it's anathema(I think that's the word) to a human being's natural state. 4.Killing people who are innocent is another one as well. 5.Mandating the time when someone is scheduled to die is ballsy to me. Who are you to be God and decide when their time is up? Shit most of the time even murder victims aren't left to wait and know on a certain day and time they WILL die. In fact I'd argue that's being as bad or worse then them. Refer to reason 1 there.
So I think I laid my peace out there. Oh and I'm Anti-Gun control as well.

edit: Oh and Javery have you considered setting up a cab for the next fighter that comes out and hooking it to a Pioneer Kuro? That would be the shit.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']edit: Oh and Javery have you considered setting up a cab for the next fighter that comes out and hooking it to a Pioneer Kuro? That would be the shit.[/quote]

You mean like a real SF4 machine? I doubt it - I'd hang that sucker on the wall in my TV room first. I think SFIII:3rd is about as sophisticated as I'll go cab-wise.
 
I think most people believe in Pro-choice only for the "What if......." situations. Personally I don't think there is a way to justify either except through fear.
 
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