Is shovelware *good* for the industry?

I don't think it's good or bad really. It's just talentless developers cashing in with half assed games that people are dumb enough to buy.

As long as real developers are making AAA games, I've got no problem with it. The problem I had with the Wii is third party developers seem to be putting most of their AAA stuff on the 360/PS3. Probably want to have cutting edge graphics, online play etc. for those games I guess.

So I didn't have enough to play on the Wii to justify keeping it around. But I don't think that had to do with shovelware really. Just that the types of third party games I want to play are going to the HD systems. Which is fine by me as I'd much rather play them in HD.
 
I dont understand why it would be good for the industry.

Its people trying to make a quick buck.
 
This is actually one of my long standing positions. Its indicative of a healthy platform. A platform that is healthy for shovelware is also healthy for other low budget/niche games, like Killer 7.

Many games cant afford the longer dev cycles, higher dev costs and lower marketshare of HD. This is exactly why Monster Hunter & Fatal Frame are coming to Wii. Their previous record of home console releases do not make them viable candidates for a game in HD.

Its also good in that its largely FUNDING HD games in many cases, reducing the massive liability.
 
My only thought about it funding HD games, is how many of the shovelware games are made by developers that actually make good HD games with the profits vs. just cashing in with more shovelware?

I know there's some licensed games that come from bigger developers/publishers, but those tend to be medicore b or c list games, rather than complete shovelware.

I just have a hard time imagining the profits from Ninja Bread man funding a AAA release by that developer.

I do agree that Shovelware selling well is indicative of B list/low budget Indie games like Killer 7 being likely to succeed though, as iti shows stuff that's not AAA mainstream will sell. Not that I care since I only play AAA games as I don't even have time to keep up with all of these, much less to waste delving into lower tiers.
 
Thinking about this more it seems horrible for our industry and Chris Kohler just proves it by trying to defend it.

When he says something like "LOLZ BAD MOVIES DONT MAKE PEOPLE STOP GOING TO GOOD ONES!!!!!!!" People can tell the difference between a shitty movie and a good one, not so much with games.

Shovelware just proves that people will buy shitty games because they dont know better.
 
[quote name='guinaevere']Interesting thoughts. I'll think on the when I'm in a clearer frame of mind. Thanks for the article, dallow.[/QUOTE]
:rofl:
 
I think it honestly depends on the system at hand: Some claim shovelware killed the videogame industry in 83/84, but I honestly think back then it was simply too much, too soon....the quality of many of the a-list titles was good but the industry as a whole was viewed as a "fad" and so it died out in the eyes of retailers choking on piles of unsold, over-produced games.

Shovelware for a Wii is fine, but for a 360 its probably not that good of an idea.

I'm not saying that to diss the Wii owners.....its simply a statement that so many Wii's are in grandparents houses, or being played by younger kids whos parents want to keep them away from COD4 and GTA4, and those users aren't the most discriminating consumers, that I think it serves apurpose.

Look at how much money is made by WalMart selling $10 PC titles like "WW2 Marine Sniper part 12" or "Cabellas...whatever hunt #25"....clearly the market is there for people who probably dont know that better quality software exists, tho mostly at higher prices.
 
[quote name='InuFaye']Thinking about this more it seems horrible for our industry and Chris Kohler just proves it by trying to defend it.

When he says something like "LOLZ BAD MOVIES DONT MAKE PEOPLE STOP GOING TO GOOD ONES!!!!!!!" People can tell the difference between a shitty movie and a good one, not so much with games.

Shovelware just proves that people will buy shitty games because they dont know better.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that's true. There are plenty of AWFUL movies that get terrible reviews and still make a killing at the box office and on DVD sales. Hell, that's probably 75% of summer movies!
 
It's a necessary step for games to become a more mainstream media. The movie and music industries are filled with garbage, and almost none of it is actually worthwhile... it's bound to happen eventually. I don't particularly like it, but... has to happen.
 
It does look like mostly Western groups that are doing this, now that I'm looking into it, though Square Enix does have their DS Style series and Wine tasting game in Japan. Nothing really from Capcom. When they want money, they port, but their newer developments are all pretty solid. Similar for Konami.

Last half of 2007 only, as credited by gamefaqs:

Activision:

Monster Jam (Wii/DS/360)
Winter Sports (in Europe)
Bee Movie Game (multi)
Hot Wheels (DS)
Dancing with the Stars (Wii)
Barbie as the Island Princess (multi)
Puppy Luv series (multi)

Ubisoft:

Petz series
My Word Coach series
Cranium Kabooki (Wii)
Imagine Series

Everything from Data Design Interactive and nearly everything from THQ
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']It does look like mostly Western groups that are doing this, now that I'm looking into it, though Square Enix does have their DS Style series and Wine tasting game in Japan. Nothing really from Capcom. When they want money, they port, but their newer developments are all pretty solid. Similar for Konami.
[/QUOTE]

I've never had a whole lot of faith in the majority of US developers, but really, what the fuck? Square has a wine tasting game. That's pure class. What do we get? Homie Rollerz with some black pimp, a couple of Mexicans, and a fuckin' banner on the case that says "Presentado en Espanol."
 
That I can see, I was thinking more developers than publishers which was the wrong way to look at it.

Infinity Ward doesn't do shoveware, but Activision certainly publishes a lot and some of that money probably funds Infinity Ward and the Call of Duty series.

I used to be big on Japanese developers, but my tastes have done a complete 180 over the past few years. Used to be all Nintendo, Sega, platformers, JRPGs etc. Now I'm pretty sick of all that and pretty much only playing FPS, western RPGs and some action games and not playing much from Japanese developers aside from Nintendo and Capcom.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']It does look like mostly Western groups that are doing this, now that I'm looking into it, though Square Enix does have their DS Style series and Wine tasting game in Japan. Nothing really from Capcom. When they want money, they port, but their newer developments are all pretty solid. Similar for Konami.
[/QUOTE]

What about the whole Simple series from D3?? Not to say it's garbage, but there are a lot of game in that series and they're ALL budget. D3 even put Puzzle Quest out in Japan as a Simple game.
 
I'm sure there are budget developers from every place. I was looking primarily at the bigger name publishers to try to point to them using those games as side funding for higher end development.

There are certainly developers that produce nothing but trash all the time.
 
[quote name='Chacrana']It's a necessary step for games to become a more mainstream media. The movie and music industries are filled with garbage, and almost none of it is actually worthwhile... it's bound to happen eventually. I don't particularly like it, but... has to happen.[/QUOTE]
Sad but true. Especially when I see the majority of the customers that come in to buy games.

"Yo, when is that Madden joint dropping!?"
 
What exactly is "shovelware" ? Before we disscuss what's good or bad, lets clarify the definition of shovelware.
 
[quote name='Thomas96']What exactly is "shovelware" ? Before we disscuss what's good or bad, lets clarify the definition of shovelware.[/QUOTE]

Cheaply produced game that sucks balls, made in attempt for a quick cash in.

As it's made to cash in, so it's usually either a licensed game (especially licensed kids games), a rip off of some popular game (i.e. all the motion controlled mini-games on the Wii) or a take on something popular (all the crappy Texas Hold Em games out when poker took off) etc.

Basically, just a game that had no effort put into making it good. So it's not a game that sucks that a developer was trying to make a real game (like Kane and Lynch). It's just a complete halfassed game to sell to suckers to make a quick buck.
 
Shovelware is both good and bad for the industry, IMO. More shovelware on popular systems like the Wii hurts the industry by giving companies and the system a bad reputation/bad sales. On the other hand, shovelware could be used to fund a devs upcoming project that could turn out to be decent.
 
The only good thing about shovelware is that it does give the consumer a cheap option. Why spend 40/30 dollars on a game, when its for a kid that's not really that serious into gaming and plays on occassion and probably can't tell the difference.

IMO shovel ware doesn't have to be a bad game, I think of it as just simple games with simple gameplay elements.

I think that with all these free game engines running around a lot of shovelware may end up being better produced.



If Katamary Damacy turned out to be a bad game, it would have been considred shovelware right? Instead it turned out to be great, and got a sequel. Shovelware can give devs a way to test out game concepts, simple ideas, etc, Even the burger king games turned out to be pretty good , hell one of them even had online play.


Customers need to understand the difference between shovelware and actual quality titles.
 
[quote name='Thomas96']The only good thing about shovelware is that it does give the consumer a cheap option. Why spend 40/30 dollars on a game, when its for a kid that's not really that serious into gaming and plays on occassion and probably can't tell the difference.

IMO shovel ware doesn't have to be a bad game, I think of it as just simple games with simple gameplay elements.

I think that with all these free game engines running around a lot of shovelware may end up being better produced.[/QUOTE]

1) There are plenty of cheap games out there that weren't released at a $20 price point. And if the kid's not into games, why are you buying him a game in the first place?

2) Find me good shovelware.
 
[quote name='Thomas96']The only good thing about shovelware is that it does give the consumer a cheap option. Why spend 40/30 dollars on a game, when its for a kid that's not really that serious into gaming and plays on occassion and probably can't tell the difference. [/quote]

Games drop in price. One could just buy a PS2 and have a ton of AAA games for their kid (including a lot of kid friendly games) for $5-20.


IMO shovel ware doesn't have to be a bad game, I think of it as just simple games with simple gameplay elements.
Click to expand...

Um, no. There's plenty of simple games with simple game play elements that are high quality. Brain Age, Bejeweled, etc.


If Katamary Damacy turned out to be a bad game, it would have been considred shovelware right?
.
Click to expand...

No. It was an oddball indy game. Not a game designed to make a cheap buck by cashing in on a license, ripping off other successful games, being a poor adapation of a sport, card game etc.

Crappy games don't equal shovelware. Shovelware are crappy games made crappy on purpose as their a cheap attempt to make a quick buck by ripping off/adapting to game whatever's popular.

And there's no such thing as good shovelware. If someone makes a decent game that's cashing in on a license or whatever, that's still a good game.
 
I don't see the problem. Some of the games may actually turn out to be good, Lego Star Wars could easily have been considered shovelware by some from what I see.

The problem is that the title comes after the game is made and "everyone" determines it sucks. Also there are plenty of games many people may think are terrible but other people may love. It's perfectly healthy for an industry to have a wide variety of products, and nobody is going to return their Wii because they bought a crappy game for it, much like people don't return dvd players due to a bad movie, CD players for music, books, etc.
 
I agree with that. Like I said, I don't really see it as a good or bad thing. It bugged me on the Wii as there were no third party games I wanted to play as everything was either a port, shovelware, mediocre (i.e. the Medal of Honor game) or just not in a genre I liked (NMH) etc.

So it was annoying not to see the Wii getting AAA efforts from third parties while at the same time getting so many crappy licensed kids games, monster truck games, mini-game compilations etc.

But IMO that has more to do with the Wii not being nearly as powerful as the other two. That makes it much harder to port games over, and a developer like Infinity Ward isn't going to make it for the Wii and then port to the other two as they like to push technology. Lack of solid online system probably hurts as far as getting AAA games that are big on line modes as well.

That probably leads a lot to the shovelware to quality 3rd party games ratio--rather than shovelware somehow "scaring off" good games.

But as far as the "one's person's trash is another's treasure" argument, that doesn't really fly with true shovelware. I mean we're talking like the Barbie games, Mary Kate and Ashley Olson games etc. Games reviled for their content and for being very poorly made and not even worth the reduced prices for fans of the license.

As for lego star wars, yes if it had shitty production values, broken controls, tons of glitches etc. it would have been shovelware. But as it was a very polished game with great production values and use of the license, it is not. It's a well done pick up and play game.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Games drop in price. One could just buy a PS2 and have a ton of AAA games for their kid (including a lot of kid friendly games) for $5-20.




Um, no. There's plenty of simple games with simple game play elements that are high quality. Brain Age, Bejeweled, etc.




No. It was an oddball indy game. Not a game designed to make a cheap buck by cashing in on a license, ripping off other successful games, being a poor adapation of a sport, card game etc.

Crappy games don't equal shovelware. Shovelware are crappy games made crappy on purpose as their a cheap attempt to make a quick buck by ripping off/adapting to game whatever's popular.

And there's no such thing as good shovelware. If someone makes a decent game that's cashing in on a license or whatever, that's still a good game.[/QUOTE]

how about you give some examples of shovelware games... since you know so much.
 
[quote name='Thomas96']how about you give some examples of shovelware games... since you know so much.[/QUOTE]

Dallow already did with his link....great example of a selection of shovelware on the Wii.

http://s2.directupload.net/images/070826/uDiH7mbn.jpg

Another good place for examples is the Seanbaby's "rest of the crap section" of EGM, that pokes fun at the shovelware each month as well as shovelware from years past.

We're talking stuff like the Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen games. Barbie Horse Adventures. The various PetZ games. The BratZ games. Army Men games. Ginger Bread Man. Things of that nature.

It's not rocket science. There are lots of games out there with no redeeming qualities that were slapped together to make a quick buck by cashing in on a license or a current fad.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
As for lego star wars, yes if it had shitty production values, broken controls, tons of glitches etc. it would have been shovelware. But as it was a very polished game with great production values and use of the license, it is not. It's a well done pick up and play game.[/QUOTE]

How can you tell me that Katamary wouldn't be considered shovelware if the game turned out to be bad, and then turn around and say the same thing I was saying about Katamari for Lego star wars.

Shovelware is a game that turned out bad.. the wii is probably getting shovelware because third parties don't know how to make a game with good motion controls. It'd be nice if devs were to try and make more 2d games for the Wii, or more nes like games, with the simple turn the wii mote side ways controls. More games like Mischief Makers...
 
People act like this is a new thing. A lot of crap gets shoveled out on the leading console of each generation. If you don't believe me go check out the PS2, Gameboy, and DS libraries. Hell, I own 150 NES games and there are a lot of them that are virtually unplayable.

I would guess that the flow of these games will slow once we start seeing some of the higher quality games getting price drops.
 
[quote name='Thomas96']How can you tell me that Katamary wouldn't be considered shovelware if the game turned out to be bad, and then turn around and say the same thing I was saying about Katamari for Lego star wars.
[/QUOTE]

Did you miss where I repeatedly said that shovelware is a game that made no effort to be good but rather to just CASH IN ON A LICENSE OR CURRENT FAD?

Star Wars is a license, as is Lego. Thus it easily could have been a shit game slopped together to make a quick buck, but it wasn't.

Katamari is a pointless, random game. It wasn't slopped together to cash in, it was an indy team trying something new. If it had sucked, it would have just been a bad game.

Again, shovelware is a game made to cash in by ripping off what's hot at the moment, be that making a shitty game of a popular license or copycatting existing popular games etc.

Shovelware is not just any game that ended up sucking. It's a game that was never intended not to suck as it was just slopped together to sell to suckers who are fans of a license, existing game, a fad like poker etc. The developers never made any honest attempt to make a good game. They just wanted to get it out ASAP, make their profit and move on.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Dallow already did with his link....great example of a selection of shovelware on the Wii.

http://s2.directupload.net/images/070826/uDiH7mbn.jpg

Another good place for examples is the Seanbaby's "rest of the crap section" of EGM, that pokes fun at the shovelware each month as well as shovelware from years past.

We're talking stuff like the Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen games. Barbie Horse Adventures. The various PetZ games. The BratZ games. Army Men games. Ginger Bread Man. Things of that nature.

It's not rocket science. There are lots of games out there with no redeeming qualities that were slapped together to make a quick buck by cashing in on a license or a current fad.[/quote]

I really liked that Army Men game for PS2. It was fun for co-op. ;_;
 
[quote name='dallow']
This:

http://s2.directupload.net/images/070826/uDiH7mbn.jpg[/QUOTE]

Who are you to doubt Billy the Wizard Pocket Broomstick Racing?



Really though, I have a morbid facscination with checking out that Earache Extreme Metal Racing. From an IGN description:
Along with themed tracks from the combatants on the starting grid there's also a plethora of extreme Earache classics making up the soundtrack of the game from such luminaries as Napalm Death, At The Gates, Cathedral, The Haunted, Hate Eternal, Cult Of Luna, Beecher, Urkraft, Anata, Mistress, Severe Torture and many others.
Click to expand...
Seeing this game advertised next to stuff like Kidz Fun Shopping Adventure and Pookie's Jellybean Jamboree is kind of funny.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']But IMO that has more to do with the Wii not being nearly as powerful as the other two. That makes it much harder to port games over, and a developer like Infinity Ward isn't going to make it for the Wii and then port to the other two as they like to push technology. Lack of solid online system probably hurts as far as getting AAA games that are big on line modes as well.[/QUOTE]

Bad example, considering CoD 5 has been announced for the Wii.
 
[quote name='trq']Bad example, considering CoD 5 has been announced for the Wii.[/QUOTE]

Isn't Treyarch handling COD5, though? If that is, indeed the case, then it probably will be shit.

Just like COD3 was.
 
All you have to do is look at the simple 2000 games. I think 1 or 2 got a US release, while Japan got over 100 and Europe got more than a few.
 
[quote name='Chacrana']Isn't Treyarch handling COD5, though? If that is indeed the case, then it probably will be shit.

Just like COD3 was.[/QUOTE]

"Yes" and "probably so," but every system is getting the Treyarch developed game, not just Wii owners.
 
[quote name='trq']"Yes" and "probably so," but every system is getting the Treyarch developed game, not just Wii owners.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but that's why I used Infinity Ward as the example. They want to push graphics, have great online play etc. Treyarch doesn't care they're just paid to shit out a CoD game for Activision every other year so Infinity Ward can make a "real" CoD game every two. And my point was some developers want to push tech and online, and that makes Wii ports not very feasible.

That's not the case with Treyarch and CoD5 so it will be like CoD3. 360 and PS3 will get a mediocre game, Wii will get an absolute turd of a port of this mediocre game.
 
[quote name='niceguyshawne']People act like this is a new thing. A lot of crap gets shoveled out on the leading console of each generation. If you don't believe me go check out the PS2, Gameboy, and DS libraries. Hell, I own 150 NES games and there are a lot of them that are virtually unplayable.

I would guess that the flow of these games will slow once we start seeing some of the higher quality games getting price drops.[/quote]Except those systems had a good number of highly rated titles to make the trash not seem like it's all over the shelf.

Seriously though, it does seem like there's way more of this for the Wii in it's first year of life in relation to 'non-shovelware' games.
 
[quote name='Chacrana']At the same time though, bad doesn't necessarily equate to shovelware.[/QUOTE]

Yep, that was my point above.

Shovelware is a game that never tried NOT to be bad as it was just trying to cash in on a license, fad, rip off another game etc. to make a quick buck.

Other bad games were trying to be good, and just failed--i.e. something like Kane and Lynch or any other game like that which has some hype but just ends up sucking. We know they were trying to make a full fledged game that would get decent reviews and sell well, they just didn't succeed.
 
[quote name='dallow']Except those systems had a good number of highly rated titles to make the trash not seem like it's all over the shelf.

Seriously though, it does seem like there's way more of this for the Wii in it's first year of life in relation to 'non-shovelware' games.[/quote]

I think this is because most of the shovelware are ready-made PS2 ports (so no development time). That hasn't been an option in prior generations. (The games seem "new" to us because they were only released in Europe before now.)
 
[quote name='soonersfan60']I think this is because most of the shovelware are ready-made PS2 ports (so no development time). That hasn't been an option in prior generations. (The games seem "new" to us because they were only released in Europe before now.)[/QUOTE]

That's part of it. The other part of it is that hardcore games (hate that term) haven't sold well on the Wii, so publishers aren't taking risks on making those kinds of Wii games. There's a quote from one in the Wii article in the new EGM saying they viewed the Wii market as a combination of Nintendo fanboys (his words) and casual gamers, and are making games as such--so mostly casual since Nintendo fanboys only buy Nintendo games. The article also uses examples of poor sales of games like Zack and Wiki and No More Heroes (in Japan) not giving much incentive for developers to take risks. Though to their credit, they think that is lame and chide developers for not trying--as they should as games like Z&W and NMH are pretty niche titles one being adventure and one being and oddball stylized Japanese game that probably wouldn't sell well on the other systems either.

I also think my earlier point that some major developers like to push the graphic envelope and/or have robust online play keeps some devs from even considering the Wii right now. Though I imagine that may change some if the Wii keeps building it's lead in marketshare. Publishers will be putting pressure to make Wii games.
 
[quote name='dallow']Except those systems had a good number of highly rated titles to make the trash not seem like it's all over the shelf.
[/QUOTE]

Bingo. I guess the problem isn't really the crap games at the bottom, but the lack of good games at the top.
 
[quote name='wubb']Bingo. I guess the problem isn't really the crap games at the bottom, but the lack of good games at the top.[/QUOTE]

Definitely. And seeing more and more shovelware and even good casual games pile up on the Wii was discouraging as a Wii owner that wanted to play quality AAA traditional games in major genres. It just didn't give me any confidence that third parties were going to start making any of those types of games anytime soon, vs. crapping out shovelware, casual games and ports. That's the only problem I had with it.

Thus it just wasn't worth it to me to keep the Wii around since I've grown tired of Nintendo's games beyond main series Mario, Metroid and Zelda and I'd already got one version of those this generation. Who knows if any will get a second game this gen or not.
 
If you look at Hollywood it's been said that the Blockbuster's fund the Art so one could argue the same could happen in video gaming. Unfortunately it's NOT imo or if it is it would be on the Wii as they wouldn't want to spend the money on putting it in HD.
Case in point look at the 360. NOTHING much that stands out like Rez, Space Channel 5, Segagaga or Jet Set Radio.
There ARE gamers that are the Art one's, who like this stuff, most gamers I'd argue but we don't yell loud enough we want it and not predictable albeit decent tripe. No offense but look at "Dead Rising", "Halo 3", etc. all predictable safe games. I give "Mass Effect" SOME credit because the acting is so superb and it feels like a movie but past that most games I WON'T count for the 360. We need Arthouse with a big budget and that leaves only Sega and now they don't give a fuck with Sammy telling them to ignore it.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Did you miss where I repeatedly said that shovelware is a game that made no effort to be good but rather to just CASH IN ON A LICENSE OR CURRENT FAD?

Star Wars is a license, as is Lego. Thus it easily could have been a shit game slopped together to make a quick buck, but it wasn't.

Katamari is a pointless, random game. It wasn't slopped together to cash in, it was an indy team trying something new. If it had sucked, it would have just been a bad game.

Again, shovelware is a game made to cash in by ripping off what's hot at the moment, be that making a shitty game of a popular license or copycatting existing popular games etc.

Shovelware is not just any game that ended up sucking. It's a game that was never intended not to suck as it was just slopped together to sell to suckers who are fans of a license, existing game, a fad like poker etc. The developers never made any honest attempt to make a good game. They just wanted to get it out ASAP, make their profit and move on.[/QUOTE]

I guess they're all in the "current fad" catagory because they're on the Wii. - making a shitty game for a popular well selling console. Reminds me of atari 2600 games.
Only bad thing about these games, is that if you buy one, that's one good game you didn't buy, and thus it could cause people to miss out on some good games on the system. You buy up enough shovelware [talking about casual gamer] and it could cause them to lose interest. However, if they would have just picked up a gem that has priced dropped, then they could have had a good game to experience.
 
[quote name='Thomas96']I guess they're all in the "current fad" catagory because they're on the Wii. - making a shitty game for a popular well selling console. [/QUOTE]

No, at lot of the games I'd call shovelware are cashing in on stuff rather than just the Wii popularity.

Losts of licensed kids games. Lots of mini game collections trying to build on the casual game fad and rip off Wii Play, Rayman Raving Rabids, Wii Sports etc. Monster Truck games, snow boarding games etc. that are shovelware to sell blindly to fans of those things and so forth.

The Wii's popularity just means it gets more shovelware than the other two due to having a larger market, just like the PS2 last gen with it's huge lead. Being kid friendly it will get a lot of the licensed kid shovelware like you saw with the GBA and see on the DS as well.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']
There ARE gamers that are the Art one's, who like this stuff, most gamers I'd argue but we don't yell loud enough we want it and not predictable albeit decent tripe. [/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say most gamers. Most gamers are buying Halo 3, CoD4, Mass Effect, Mario, Metroid, Zelda etc., myself included. That's why they are top selling.

There's a small niche of gamers that like the artsy games, and that's why they sell many fewer copies.

If you break it down into casual vs. "hardcore" gamers with the later being people that game a lot (say 10+ hours a week minimum) the ratio would be better. But you're still going to have more who spend their time playing games like Halo than stuff like Rez.

Those games are blockbusters because they are huge hits among casuals who play a bit here and there AND more serious gamers who play more.
 
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