Is shovelware *good* for the industry?

[quote name='dmaul1114']I wouldn't say most gamers. Most gamers are buying Halo 3, CoD4, Mass Effect, Mario, Metroid, Zelda etc., myself included. That's why they are top selling.

There's a small niche of gamers that like the artsy games, and that's why they sell many fewer copies.

If you break it down into casual vs. "hardcore" gamers with the later being people that game a lot (say 10+ hours a week minimum) the ratio would be better. But you're still going to have more who spend their time playing games like Halo than stuff like Rez.

Those games are blockbusters because they are huge hits among casuals who play a bit here and there AND more serious gamers who play more.[/QUOTE]

GOD I hate that fucking label! Hardcore is the GAYEST term, such a POSER term. I'm hardcore dude, LOOK at me! See what I mean?
Explain to me if we're such a niche how did Rez get a release on XBLA? Now we need 'Jet Set Radio" getting the HD treatment.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']GOD I hate that fucking label! Hardcore is the GAYEST term, such a POSER term. I'm hardcore dude, LOOK at me! See what I mean?
Explain to me if we're such a niche how did Rez get a release on XBLA? Now we need 'Jet Set Radio" getting the HD treatment.[/QUOTE]

I hate the hardcore label as well which is why I put it in quotes. It's just the standard, dumbass label for serious gamers.

You got that stuff as developers can still make money selling to a Niche (especially on XBLA), and some developers just like to make those kinds of games.

There's no denying that stuff doesn't sell like Halo, Bioshock, CoD4, Mario, Metroid, Zelda etc. Thus it's niche. There's mainstream and niche/cult games IMO. Some people don't look at it so black and white, but I do. Doing so simplifies terminology, and gets away from having cut points of how many sold equals what.

Among quality games there are mainstream games that sell a ton, and niche/cult games that are very good but aren't mainstream successes. Simple to keep track of and doesn't tack on any value judgements etc.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I've grown tired of Nintendo's games beyond main series Mario, Metroid and Zelda and I'd already got one version of those this generation. Who knows if any will get a second game this gen or not.[/quote]

I'm right there with you. We've been playing the same exact games since 1996 (other than Metroid which we've been playing since 2001). Mario Galaxy was really really good but at the end of the day it was still more of the same. Don't even get me started on Zelda (my favorite franchise) - they need to do something drastic to the series - talk about stale. Same thing with Metroid - all three games were good (MP1 ranks in my top 5 games of all time) but the series is getting progressively worse with each iteration...
 
[quote name='javeryh']I'm right there with you. We've been playing the same exact games since 1996 (other than Metroid which we've been playing since 2001). Mario Galaxy was really really good but at the end of the day it was still more of the same. Don't even get me started on Zelda (my favorite franchise) - they need to do something drastic to the series - talk about stale. Same thing with Metroid - all three games were good (MP1 ranks in my top 5 games of all time) but the series is getting progressively worse with each iteration...[/QUOTE]

I'm not that sick of Mario, Metroid and Zelda. I still loved those 3 games on the Wii, and liked MP3 the best in the series (Loved the first, but it was a bit too hard for my tastes, 2nd one I didn't like at all as it was way too hard for me and I hated the dark world).

I'm just not big into Mario Sports, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., Kirby, hate Animal Crossing etc. So I just wasn't seeing much in the first party future that I wanted. I doubt there will be another Mario on Wii. Probably not another metroid either as Retro is apparently working on other projects now. Maybe we'll get a Zelda, but I have a feeling it will be a Celda and I haven't been big on that take on the series thus far.

Combine that with nothing from third parties getting me excited, and my tastes shifting more to FPS and western RPGs and there was just no reason for me to own the system anymore.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, but that's why I used Infinity Ward as the example. They want to push graphics, have great online play etc. Treyarch doesn't care they're just paid to shit out a CoD game for Activision every other year so Infinity Ward can make a "real" CoD game every two. And my point was some developers want to push tech and online, and that makes Wii ports not very feasible.

That's not the case with Treyarch and CoD5 so it will be like CoD3. 360 and PS3 will get a mediocre game, Wii will get an absolute turd of a port of this mediocre game.[/QUOTE]

Let me try this from another angle. Your point was that the Wii doesn't get AAA titles because it isn't as powerful, and people who like to push graphics aren't going to make games for it and port up to the 360/PS3. Yes? That's all well and good, but Call of Duty 5 will likely use the same assets, same engine, etc. as the Infinity Ward games. Treyarch isn't sitting there, planning on making a Wii game and porting it to the other consoles, either. Unless your point was that the Wii will only ever see odd-numbered Call of Duty games, power has nothing to do with it, and the "Infinity Ward = good / Treyarch = mediocre bit" is irrelevant.

I'm really not trying to argue with your overall point; just that picking Call of Duty was a bad example to illustrate it.

[quote name='dmaul1114']That's part of it. The other part of it is that hardcore games (hate that term) haven't sold well on the Wii, so publishers aren't taking risks on making those kinds of Wii games.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious: which hardcore games are you referring to, specifically?

[quote name='javeryh']I'm right there with you. We've been playing the same exact games since 1996 (other than Metroid which we've been playing since 2001). Mario Galaxy was really really good but at the end of the day it was still more of the same. Don't even get me started on Zelda (my favorite franchise) - they need to do something drastic to the series - talk about stale. Same thing with Metroid - all three games were good (MP1 ranks in my top 5 games of all time) but the series is getting progressively worse with each iteration...[/QUOTE]

I couldn't disagree more. If Metroid Prime 3 is "more of the same," there wasn't a game released in 2007 that isn't.
 
[quote name='dallow']Except those systems had a good number of highly rated titles to make the trash not seem like it's all over the shelf.

Seriously though, it does seem like there's way more of this for the Wii in it's first year of life in relation to 'non-shovelware' games.[/quote]

There are several reasons for the front loadedness, all pointing back the long term viability of the platform.

1) The shovelware developers really dont have any other choice as far as platforms, and they knew this a long time ago: longer dev cycles, higher dev costs and lower marketshare make the HD consoles a non-option, for the most part.

2) Casuals bought into the system at the start, rather than after price cuts down the road, tilting the demographics in their favor even further.

3) The larger developers were largely caught off guard with the unexpected marketshare growth, and in addition, are also guilty of rushing something out the door to catch Q4 '07. To make things worse, most of the big name franchises had already been committed to the HD platforms well before the PS3 launched.

People point to things like Ninjabread Man, but Dec NPD has it at a lifetime of 2,362 units sold.

Shovelware developers are the canary in the coalmine. They know how to pick the winning platform.
 
People want to shut down shovelware. I want to DOUBLE it.

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[quote name='trq']Let me try this from another angle. Your point was that the Wii doesn't get AAA titles because it isn't as powerful, and people who like to push graphics aren't going to make games for it and port up to the 360/PS3. Yes? That's all well and good, but Call of Duty 5 will likely use the same assets, same engine, etc. as the Infinity Ward games.
[/QUOTE]

Beats me man. Explain to me why CoD 3 and 5 are on the Wii and CoD4 isn't. My only thought is that Infinity Ward can't be bothered with wasting time trying to get a Wii version of the game to run and wants to put all their effort into making it look and play the best it can on the HD systems/systems with real only efforts.

So Infinity Ward is a fine example of what I was talking about, but your right in that saying CoD as the example is trickier since Treyarch has no problem shitting out an awful port of their already mediocre odd numbered CoD games.

[quote name='trq']
I'm curious: which hardcore games are you referring to, specifically?
[/QUOTE]

To steal EGM's example I mentioned above, Zack and Wiki sold poorly, and No More Heroes sold like ass in Japan (US numbers not out yet). Pretty much any traditional game that's not made by Nintendo besides teh RE4 port has sold badly as far as I know--including other ports like the Prince of Persia game etc.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']
People point to things like Ninjabread Man, but Dec NPD has it at a lifetime of 2,362 units sold.
[/QUOTE]

And that probably turned a profit since they probably spent very little to do a shitty port of their shitty PS2 game. :D

That's why you see so many PS2 shovelware ported over. It costs next to nothing and they don't have to sell much to make a profit on the port.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
To steal EGM's example I mentioned above. Zack and Wiki sold poorly, and No More Heroes sold like ass in Japan (US numbers not out yet). Pretty much any traditional game that's not made by Nintendo besides teh RE4 port has sold badly as far as I know--including other ports like the Prince of Persia game etc.[/quote]

Man, what?

No More Heroes was at 83k from the 2 weeks it was in the Jan NPD and had been confirmed at over 100k in the U.S. in mid-Feb by the President of Grasshopper manufacture.

Zack & Wiki was at 67k LTD as of the Dec NPD.

This is where development costs are critical: These games probably didnt break the bank to make.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Beats me man. Explain to me why CoD 3 and 5 are on the Wii and CoD4 isn't. My only thought is that Infinity Ward can't be bothered with wasting time trying to get a Wii version of the game to run and wants to put all their effort into making it look and play the best it can on the HD systems/systems with real only efforts.

So Infinity Ward is a fine example of what I was talking about, but your right in that saying CoD as the example is trickier since Treyarch has no problem shitting out an awful port of their already mediocre odd numbered CoD games.[/QUOTE]

Never let it be said that I can't correct myself when I'm wrong -- I had no idea they even made CoD 3 for the Wii. :(

[quote name='dmaul1114']To steal EGM's example I mentioned above, Zack and Wiki sold poorly, and No More Heroes sold like ass in Japan (US numbers not out yet). Pretty much any traditional game that's not made by Nintendo besides teh RE4 port has sold badly as far as I know--including other ports like the Prince of Persia game etc.[/QUOTE]

Well, as good of a game as it it, I'd be hesitant to cite Zack & Wiki -- that game would probably have sold even worse on the 360 or the PS3, let's be honest. "Haylo Kidz" ain't touching that one with a ten foot pole.

But let's set aside RE4 -- Guitar Hero III, Umbrella Chronicles, even Red Steel are all, off the top of my head, hardcore third-party million sellers on the Wii. So I don't think it's exactly that traditional non-Nintendo games sell poorly on the Wii -- it's that third parties STILL haven't bothered making many.
 
Well... one things for certain we'll always be with shovelware, you have shovelware toys, shovelware computers, shovelware cars, shovelware clothing, etc. ... what can you do.

they make good stocking stuffers during chrismas.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Man, what?

No More Heroes was at 83k from the 2 weeks it was in the Jan NPD and had been confirmed at over 100k in the U.S. in mid-Feb by the President of Grasshopper manufacture.

Zack & Wiki was at 67k LTD as of the Dec NPD.

This is where development costs are critical: These games probably didnt break the bank to make.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, those are EGM examples. And the Capcom people who did Zack and Wiki said in that article that they were disappointed with it's sales, and Suda had that whole rant about NMH selling bad in Japan that generated the long thread in the Wii forum.

So I'm guessing they didn't make them as much money as they'd have liked, or the devs themselves wouldn't be complaining.

They may not have cost much to make relative to HD games on the 360/PS3, but not selling well still hurts 3rd party incentive to make traditional games vs. cashing in with casual games and shovelware on the Wii.

Whether this is justified, or just an excuse devs are using to cash in with shovelware and casual games instead of making real games is another story.
 
[quote name='trq']
Well, as good of a game as it it, I'd be hesitant to cite Zack & Wiki -- that game would probably have sold even worse on the 360 or the PS3, let's be honest. "Haylo Kidz" ain't touching that one with a ten foot pole.[/quote]

Yeah, I said the same thing above. Z&W and NMH are poor examples for 3rd party Devs and publishers to go buy as they aren't selling big numbers on any console. They're niche products, not mainstream games that are going to sell a million copies.

But that doesn't change the fact that in interviews their developers are expressing disappointment and other devs are whining about how nothing sells but Nintendo games on Nintendo platforms.

Justified or not, a lot of devs/publishers are reluctant to take risks on the Wii with major traditional games and are just cashing in with casual games and shovelware.

But let's set aside RE4 -- Guitar Hero III, Umbrella Chronicles, even Red Steel are all, off the top of my head, hardcore third-party million sellers on the Wii. So I don't think it's exactly that traditional non-Nintendo games sell poorly on the Wii -- it's that third parties STILL haven't bothered making many.
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Agreed. They're just shying away from making many and choosing to cash in with casual games and shovelware as it's easy money. RE4 and GHIII were easy money as well since they were just ports that cost a lot less than making new, exclusive Wii games.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']This is actually one of my long standing positions. Its indicative of a healthy platform. A platform that is healthy for shovelware is also healthy for other low budget/niche games, like Killer 7.

Many games cant afford the longer dev cycles, higher dev costs and lower marketshare of HD. This is exactly why Monster Hunter & Fatal Frame are coming to Wii. Their previous record of home console releases do not make them viable candidates for a game in HD.

Its also good in that its largely FUNDING HD games in many cases, reducing the massive liability.[/QUOTE]

Could you imagine if Fatal Frame 4 sells enough on the Wii to give Tecmo the funds to be able to afford the development cost of bringing it to HD on the PS3?! Just WOW! Please shut up anyone saying the 360 as well. Normally I'd agree and mention the 360 but since it doesn't have a disc medium that could offer enough storage space to allow the developers to give it Lossless it's not good enough. Fatal Frame is a game where sound plays such a huge part I can't imagine anything less then Lossless now that the capability is around. Your thoughts?
 
My first reason not to buy the Wii was because it was the platform every shitty game was on. Disney and all the other studios poured their crap on this console. IMO, this is a bad thing.
 
All Nintendo is doing is opening up the market and exerting less control over what people can make for the Wii. Plus, think about it. Nintendo's official line here is that they're not putting creative restraints on game makers, which is wholly incompatible with their rationale for why they won't allow Adults Only-rated games on Wii.
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If Nintendo doesn't think it's a problem that awful games like Monster Trux Offroad have the Nintendo logo on them and are associated with their company, why is it an issue if an AO-rated game like Manhunt 2 is released on Wii? That same laissez-faire philosophy might actually start applying to games we want to play.[/quote]

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but if the author is arguing for Nintendo to continue to "open its borders," doesn't Manhunt 2 as an example work against his theory?
 
[quote name='CouRageouS']:rofl:[/quote]Sure, yuck it up at my expense.
tongue.gif



Daroga, please accept my apology for that error.

[quote name='InuFaye']Im a hardcore dude.[/quote]Exactly the point they were making. ;)

I'm still against companies attempting to cash in on the ignorance of the uninformed shopper. It's their right, but ethically I'm completely at odds with the practice.

Coming from another angle, the older ataris (and coleco and more, but the notoriety of the problem was most associated with the old atari consoles) had probably about 12 games and a million clones of that dozen which were sold under different names. And looking back, most of all of them stunk, but as a kid, they were brilliant. Fast track today, how many young kids are loving that copy of Destroy All Humans they're playing even though it's really mediocre at best?

Do I have a point to make? Nope. Wanna make something of it?
 
[quote name='rabbitt']If Nintendo doesn't think it's a problem that awful games like Monster Trux Offroad have the Nintendo logo on them and are associated with their company, why is it an issue if an AO-rated game like Manhunt 2 is released on Wii? That same laissez-faire philosophy might actually start applying to games we want to play.[/quote]

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but if the author is arguing for Nintendo to continue to "open its borders," doesn't Manhunt 2 as an example work against his theory?
Click to expand...

He's saying what does Nintendo care about restricting games at all if they're allowing crap to flow into their console library anyway.
 
[quote name='Samus']He's saying what does Nintendo care about restricting games at all if they're allowing crap to flow into their console library anyway.[/QUOTE]

Well, they care enough to deny any AO-rated titles.
 
[quote name='N1c0_ds']My first reason not to buy the Wii was because it was the platform every shitty game was on. Disney and all the other studios poured their crap on this console. IMO, this is a bad thing.[/quote]Yup, and this is why the PS2, GBA, and DS are all horrid consoles. I mean, look at all the crap that's on those systems!

[quote name='guinaevere']Sure, yuck it up at my expense.
tongue.gif

Daroga, please accept my apology for that error.[/quote]Not a problem at all. :) I'd be more concerned about apologizing to dallow ;)
 
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