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[quote name='H.Cornerstone']I am going to agree with everyone else here, the question asked "How are consumers going to deal with the Paramount/Dreamworks Shift?" Why the hell wouldn't he assume that he meant Blu-ray owners who can no longer buy those movies? Especially when they are talking about Blu-ray? Also, if you don't own HD-DVD or Blu-ray, what you say is 99% of the population, than the shift doesn't mean a thing to you. What do you want him to say as a Blu-ray supporter "If you have DVD and want to upgrade to HI-Def, but only want to see Transformers this year, then buy HD-DVD." Your just trying to cause trouble and read everything the wrong way.[/quote]
its very simple. he's trying to elicit from the BDA rep what their position is re the move & what their plans were involving that. 'how do you (the BDA not BR player owners) going to help consumers (including potential ones) get around viacoms decision (w/o losing market share to HD DVD)'.

that was essentially the quesiton being asked. he was fishing and got a lame duck answer. thats why i :rofl:
 
[quote name='propeller_head']yes i realize that. but that doesnt prevent the BDA from wooing warner into exclusivity...[/quote] After yesterday's other announcement, I don't think that's possible, at least not this year.

For those that missed it, Toshiba announced that the 3G players (HD-A3, A30, A35) will have 300 and Bourne Identity packed in the box in addition to the 5 free by mail. Obviously there's some kind of contract in place to provide those movies, which doesn't jibe with Warner going BD exclusive.

Edit: the 5 free movies is also a new list of 15. Titles included:

Charlie and the Chocolate factory
Aeon flux
Full metal jacket
Babel
Black Rain
Darkman
Firewall
The Hulk
Italian Job
Syriana
The Thing
TMNT
U2: Rattle and Hum
The Frighteners

Not sure yet what the 15th movie is, or how they're divided up into groups. It's the same "pick one from each group of 3" deal as before, and runs through 2/28/08.

Also confirmed are the Shinco, Venturer, Alpine, Onkyo, Inegra and G3 Toshibas will all ship by early Q4. And Warner, Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks and Dreamworks Animation will release more than 125 new titles in Q4. 51 have been announced, that means at least 75 more to come. :)
 
[quote name='propeller_head']how does it have nothing to do w/ the discussion. the whole argument made earlier was that the reporter was referring to only blu-ray supporters; i was trying to account for why that isnt the case. i said nothing about the BDA or HD DVD forum doing anything. i was referring to the BDA PR abettor's choice of words.[/QUOTE]

No, the whole argument made earlier was that the reporter was referring to those with a Paramount/Dreamworks problem (DVD and BD owners). For some reason, you thought it was necessary for him to include current HD-DVD owners, which is what started this whole discussion. But, judging by your change of argument, it looks like we have both agreed that that was a ridiculous argument to make.

And, yes, you did say something about the BDA doing something. You, for some reason, expected an announcement from BDA as a response to the Paramount/Dreamworks move.

[quote name='propeller_head']and nothing is impossible. if viacom really wanted out im sure they could get out.[/QUOTE]

Please explain to me how they would do such a thing, and please provide me of an instance in which something similar has happened in the past, thanks.

[quote name='propeller_head']but i wasnt referring directly to that so much as the ostensible choice of no choice he provided. in the sense of; if you dont have something good to say, dont say anything at all. there are ways of being positive w/o actually being explicit; especially in the PR world (thats what it revolves around).[/QUOTE]

Wait, I thought you were faulting him for not including current HD-DVD owners in his answer, or for not persuading potential BDA owners (aka DVD owners) to adopt the competitions format.

Also, you never really answered my question about why you feel that BDA has a duty to respond from this announcement. I'm not saying that BDA couldn't use a big announcement (because they definitely could), but, last I counted, BDA had the advantage in studio support, hardware, and software, so I imagine you should expect more "wooing" from HD-DVD, rather than BDA, right?
 
[quote name='rodeojones903']I don't see where it says that anywhere. They are NPD numbers of units. Here is another article.

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6475686[/quote]Notice this line in both articles:

Sony VP Chris Fawcett declined to provide exact market share percentages of the two sides.
Click to expand...

The story is also put to rest in an AVS thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=903544

See this picture:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070901/ifa03_08.jpg
 
[quote name='dallow']Notice this line in both articles:



The story is also put to rest in an AVS thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=903544

See this picture:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070901/ifa03_08.jpg[/QUOTE]


We are talking about two different things though. These articles and Sony's statements are concerning NPD numbers sold, not what was being talked about by the BDA during their conference. The statement from Sony claims that this info is from NPD numbers, not just %'s being put out from the BDA. The thread you linked was also created 5 days before the articles (unless this is old news and they are just getting around to it). That picture you linked even states market share and units sold.

I know that no one wants to believe a word Sony has to say alot of the time, but if the NPD numbers get confirmed from another source this could be good news for the BDA.

They even state units in the presentation.

bd2xm5.jpg
 
So if Blu-Ray player sales have increased drastically and outstripping HD DVD player sales, why do disc sales continue to drop? Note these numbers are from the same presentation as the above, and NOT from the HD DVD PRG:

5901_large_bd.jpg
 
Those are standalones, of course, and not including the PS3 (but, do the HD DVD data include the 360 add-on (which is roughly half of all HD DVD players sold - even though gamers don't buy movies according to a spokesperson for HD DVD)?).

What is critical information is that the past 12 weeks overlaps, almost entirely, with the HD-A2 dropping to $300, the low-end machine HD DVD aficionados declared the savior for the format (since the race to the bottom of the price pit is evidently a perfect correlate for market domination :lol:). Moreover, it also overlaps entirely the "get 5 free movies promotion." HD DVD lost market share to BR, even if you fail to count the PS3 (well over 90% of all BR players), and even when you account for price drops to make the item more tempting.

:rofl: !!! :rofl: !!!

Oh, but WAIT! They bought Paramount, so now Transformers, itself, is going to end the format war!!!! tee-hee.
 
[quote name='geko29']So if Blu-Ray player sales have increased drastically and outstripping HD DVD player sales, why do disc sales continue to drop? Note these numbers are from the same presentation as the above, and NOT from the HD DVD PRG:

5901_large_bd.jpg
[/quote]Summer was slow for new, big releases on BD.

You know that.
Still managed to stay ahead of HD DVD though. Always.

And rodeo, I hope the NPD numbers do prove it.
 
[quote name='dallow']Summer was slow for new, big releases on BD.

You know that.
Still managed to stay ahead of HD DVD though. Always.[/QUOTE]

The gaps looks similar: the first point is 65K BR to 45K HD DVD, while the right side has 40K BR to 20K HD DVD. Without better data (or a better photo), it's hard to say, but eyeballing it, both fluctuate very similarly - moreover, a single "big movie" coming out can cause a substantial uptic in those curves, given how few discs sell overall.

If the release week of "300" were included in that chart, for instance, the current chart would look like a wading pool relative to 300's tidal wave. 300K in one week would be 3.5 times the size of the current peak on that chart. :lol:
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Those are standalones, of course, and not including the PS3 (but, do the HD DVD data include the 360 add-on (which is roughly half of all HD DVD players sold - even though gamers don't buy movies according to a spokesperson for HD DVD)?).

What is critical information is that the past 12 weeks overlaps, almost entirely, with the HD-A2 dropping to $300, the low-end machine HD DVD aficionados declared the savior for the format (since the race to the bottom of the price pit is evidently a perfect correlate for market domination :lol:). Moreover, it also overlaps entirely the "get 5 free movies promotion." HD DVD lost market share to BR, even if you fail to count the PS3 (well over 90% of all BR players), and even when you account for price drops to make the item more tempting.

:rofl: !!! :rofl: !!!

Oh, but WAIT! They bought Paramount, so now Transformers, itself, is going to end the format war!!!! tee-hee.[/QUOTE]

b-b-b-but the attach rates!
 
Toshiba pretty much confirms Sony's statement.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...s_of_Blu-ray_Stand-Alone_Player_Dominance/943

"In light of recent comments made regarding high definition stand-alone video players sales, Toshiba would like to reiterate its continued industry leading sales figures. Based on July data from NPD, Toshiba had a 55% market share year to date in high definition stand alone player sales followed by all Blu-ray companies at a combined 42%; the final 3 percent is held by dual format players.

While the competition may claim leadership based on one month of data, Toshiba has had continued sales leadership in every month since the original HD DVD players launched 17 months ago.

Toshiba is and continues to be a top seller at retailers such as Amazon, most recently reaching #1 on the site last week. As third generation players begin to come to market at the end of this month, Toshiba has full confidence that it will continue its momentum and lead in player sales. Additional information HD DVD and Toshiba’s players can be found at http://www.toshibahddvd.com"
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[quote name='geko29']So if Blu-Ray player sales have increased drastically and outstripping HD DVD player sales, why do disc sales continue to drop? Note these numbers are from the same presentation as the above, and NOT from the HD DVD PRG:

5901_large_bd.jpg
[/QUOTE]

Sony :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, you are NOT winning the stand alone player sales. Stop the lies.
 
So what is the deal with Sony's numbers? Normally, I wouldn't believe a companies' own figures, but Toshibas response sorta confirms Sony's figures. I'm also hearing that those figures mean total revenue, but don't really see proof of that either.
 
The chart they show says units, not revenue.

Several things are possible:

1) Sony is excluding the 360 Add-on Drive (after all, gamers don't buy movies) - by excluding 50% of the HD DVD players out there, they can claim a victory saleswise over HD DVD in terms of units. It's no different, really, from HD DVD folks that omit the PS3 and try to talk format parity, as if the world was suddenly deprived of 4 million Blu-Ray players.

2) (and this is true no matter if Sony is telling the truth or not) HD DVD folks, and Toshiba as well, have VASTLY VASTLY VASTLY overvalued Amazon sales rankings. They show sales for a single online retailer for a single moment in time. Whoopie. They don't show weekly trends, monthly trends, or anything meaningful. They show daily trends - and we can all agree that single day sales of anything are meaningless (though, if the HD-A2 was ranked #1 1 day out of 365 over a year, then Toshiba will still crow about it, as they have above). So, we have a *single* online-only retailer selling hardware spouting sales rankings that are refreshed once per day at the *least*, and we're supposed to act as if a high ranking is meaningful? Nope. I'm not fooled. But don't listen to me; I found an excellent blog posting the following hypothetical:

Amazon rankings are meaningless.
Statistically, they measure your book only in relation to the sale of other books, not how many copies actually sell.

Here's an example: Miss Snark's Guide to Query Letters is published to great acclaim and fanfare. Devoted Snarklings rush to buy it. One thousand copies are sold in one day! Her Amazon ranking shoots up to #1. Great rejoicing at Snark Central. The key piece of information that is not apparent in that statement is that Miss Snark's ranking is #1 because Amazon didn't sell 1000 copies of any other book that day.

Second day: Miss Snark is modestly mute about her fabulous work but Snarklings reading the archives rush to purchase the book on day two. Sales rocket. Two thousand books fly out of the warehouse. Miss Snark’s Amazon ranking plummets to #10 because nine other books sold more than two thousand copies that day.

You see the madness: you can sell more on day two AND have your ranking drop.

Authors can't resist looking at their rankings and grumbling mightily if they perceive themselves as "low" on the list. There is no way to talk them out of looking at those rankings. I've tried till I'm blue in the face--and blue is NOT a good color on Miss Snark.

If you can possibly avoid getting caught up in the rankings madness, your peace of mind, not to mention your family and everyone who knows you will be grateful.
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http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2005/10/amazon-rankings.html

So, not only are high rankings meaningless, so are low ones. The HD-A2 could be ranked #5 and still be outselling what it was when it was #1, and given the frequency of rankings updates, could very well be the case.

So, when Toshiba can only manage a terse retort that consists of "we're #1 on Amazon," I can only hope that folks like prop_head, who are such savants as to be able to see through PR bullshit, instantly recognize it and call out Toshiba on it.

[quote name='LinkinPrime']Blah blah blah...Sony claims false victory again with their premature ejaculations.[/QUOTE]

:rofl: See what I mean? Y'all dying format cats really need to find a new way to spin news, 'cuz "kill the messenger" is a bit too transparent. :lol:
 
[quote name='dpatel']No, the whole argument made earlier was that the reporter was referring to those with a Paramount/Dreamworks problem (DVD and BD owners). For some reason, you thought it was necessary for him to include current HD-DVD owners, which is what started this whole discussion. But, judging by your change of argument, it looks like we have both agreed that that was a ridiculous argument to make.
And, yes, you did say something about the BDA doing something. You, for some reason, expected an announcement from BDA as a response to the Paramount/Dreamworks move.[/quote] see youre still going back to that. he was asking the BDA rep what THEY (the BDA) planned on doing re it to shore more support for their side (consumer base). you realize the context this was at IFA right? the consumers hes referring to are ALL current/potential consumers, because they ALL are effected by viacoms decision (even if they currently have NO player or HDTV).

see DVD has NOTHING to do w/ it. he's asking about BD and HD DVD, NOT DVD. thats not even in the same catagory. if you went into best buy and asked about some HDTVs and the one youre interested is out of stock but the salesman tries to sell you a SDTV instead are you really going to consider that a viable substitute? no

i did not change my argument. i think youre just misinterpreting or misreading or just misremembering.

and i NEVER said BDA would/should do something. i said the REP for the BDA who was being interviewed by the reporter should have had more presence of mind than to recommend standard DVD as a replacement for a HD format movie.
Please explain to me how they would do such a thing, and please provide me of an instance in which something similar has happened in the past, thanks.
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any contract can be broken. i personally dont have access to viacom's contract w/ the HD DVD forum so i cant tell you HOW obviously. but it can be done, just like its done every day. HOWEVER its not very likely since breaking a contract always has negative repercussions; whether it be a lawsuit or fine.
Wait, I thought you were faulting him for not including current HD-DVD owners in his answer, or for not persuading potential BDA owners (aka DVD owners) to adopt the competitions format.

Also, you never really answered my question about why you feel that BDA has a duty to respond from this announcement. I'm not saying that BDA couldn't use a big announcement (because they definitely could), but, last I counted, BDA had the advantage in studio support, hardware, and software, so I imagine you should expect more "wooing" from HD-DVD, rather than BDA, right?
Click to expand...
uh no. if he said "buy HD DVD" i'd imagine he'd be fired that day. just go back and reread my posts if you want. because ive already gone over this more than once and im tired of repeating it.

he made a ridiculous statement, plain and simple. you guys just cant see the humor in it because youre in auto-defense mode. being BD fanboys means you automatically associate w/ any BD rep it seems and cant appreciate the humor in his response.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']:lol:

So, what, in your opinion, SHOULD the Sony exec have said?[/quote]

:arrow:
[quote name='propeller_head']i doubt he expected it. he certainly didnt directly ask that, but im sure he would have been giddy if thats what he got. an announcement, no. thats what press releases are for. i was talking about a tidbit slip; the things rumours are built on. & i didnt say they NEEDED to woo, i just gave that as an example of a tidbit of info that would have made the reporters year.

tell that mr karakkar who had to learn the hard way. you want good press; dont treat them like idiots.

no BS is straight out lying. 4D, doesnt start till we say it does, dont consider them competition, just a novelty, the wars over, etc.. declarational statements that are just over the top exaggerations is what i was referring to as BS. "we're working on that", if thats BS then they're not doing a very good job.[/quote]
[quote name='propeller_head']how does it have nothing to do w/ the discussion. the whole argument made earlier was that the reporter was referring to only blu-ray supporters; i was trying to account for why that isnt the case. i said nothing about the BDA or HD DVD forum doing anything. i was referring to the BDA PR abettor's choice of words.

and nothing is impossible. if viacom really wanted out im sure they could get out. but i wasnt referring directly to that so much as the ostensible choice of no choice he provided. in the sense of; if you dont have something good to say, dont say anything at all. there are ways of being positive w/o actually being explicit; especially in the PR world (thats what it revolves around).[/quote]
 
[quote name='dallow']"no comment" :roll:[/quote]
well even thats better than "Buy it on DVD"
imo it wouldnt have been the best answer though since its got a guilty connotation.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']:lol:

So, what, in your opinion, SHOULD the Sony exec have said?[/quote]

He should have said "Even Monkies know that Blu-Ray is better than HD-DVD, and you're smarter than a Monkey....right ?"
 
[quote name='propeller_head']:arrow:[/QUOTE]

Yesyesyes, that's well and good. Since you're obviously such a staunch critic of PR spin, what suggestions do you have for Toshiba's recent bullshit spin of Sony's announcement that BR stand-alones outsold HD DVD stand-alones for May through July?

ceteris paribus, you know. ;)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']:lol:

So, what, in your opinion, SHOULD the Sony exec have said?[/QUOTE]

HD DVD gives you AIDS. Both have the letter "D" in them and both are in all capital letters. It just makes sense.

Not like Blu-ray. It sounds like you're sailing down a mountain. Listen. Bluuuuu-raaay.

That would have gotten me to rebuy a PS3 or the stand alone player at Sams today.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']Dude...take out the fake gamercards. It's fucking up the gamercard service.[/quote]Directed at prop head.
 
And as for how consumers are supposed to get around the Dreamworks and Paramount shift to HD DVD? "Buy it on DVD," Marty suggested - before quickly adding that Blu-ray players have upscaling features so you can still get the most out of the picture quality.
Click to expand...

I still don't get how you interpret that quote as "What should the BDA do to help consumers get around the HD-DVD shift of Paramount"
 
But if he's suggesting that HD DVD is superfluous because upscaling the regular DVD lets you "still get the most out of the picture quality", then the product he's trying to promote is superfluous as well, because the same (equally specious) argument could be made on that side.
 
[quote name='geko29']But if he's suggesting that HD DVD is superfluous because upscaling the regular DVD lets you "still get the most out of the picture quality", then the product he's trying to promote is superfluous as well, because the same (equally specious) argument could be made on that side.[/quote]Oh my Go..... All of you are reading way too much into it.
 
[quote name='dallow']Oh my Go..... All of you are reading way too much into it.[/quote]
Not really, he's just easy to poke fun at. This is, after all, the same guy who just said one of the biggest advantages of Blu-Ray is the players sell at substantial margins, and he thinks consumers are smart enough to see the benefit of larger profits for his company and want to spend the extra money. :)
 
i did not change my argument. i think youre just misinterpreting or misreading or just misremembering.
Click to expand...

Oh, but you are. Your original statement:
its hilarious because that's a plain ridiculous statement. he never said "if you dont have a HD DVD player" (let alone "if you already have a BR player but not a HD DVD). he just made the assumption that NOBODY has a HD DVD player or could even want one. much less him basically admitting that the reason BD players cost more is because they want to fleece the public for longer. which has been known by many (yet not acknowledged) for a long time, see:

We've already been over this multiple times. There is no logical reason for him to incorporate current HD-DVD owners in his answer. It seems you have conceded this point long ago, as you are now bringing all sorts of unrelated arguments.

see DVD has NOTHING to do w/ it. he's asking about BD and HD DVD, NOT DVD. thats not even in the same catagory. if you went into best buy and asked about some HDTVs and the one youre interested is out of stock but the salesman tries to sell you a SDTV instead are you really going to consider that a viable substitute? no
Click to expand...

How did you get that, from this?:
And as for how consumers are supposed to get around the Dreamworks and Paramount shift to HD DVD? "Buy it on DVD," Marty suggested
Click to expand...

and i NEVER said BDA would/should do something. i said the REP for the BDA who was being interviewed by the reporter should have had more presence of mind than to recommend standard DVD as a replacement for a HD format movie.
any contract can be broken.
Click to expand...

Are you sure?:
yes i realize that. but that doesnt prevent the BDA from wooing warner into exclusivity or universal into dual format (however unlikely). for all the reporter knew some tidbit could have come loose and made him famous overnight (at least in networld).
Click to expand...

uh no. if he said "buy HD DVD" i'd imagine he'd be fired that day. just go back and reread my posts if you want. because ive already gone over this more than once and im tired of repeating it.
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Well, that was your initial suggestion:
[quote name='propeller_head'] he could have easily said "they will have to make due on HD DVD until the 18 months is over and the contract is open for negotiations".[/QUOTE]

You are just contradicting yourself left and right.
 
[quote name='terribledeli']HD DVD gives you AIDS. Both have the letter "D" in them and both are in all capital letters. It just makes sense.

Not like Blu-ray. It sounds like you're sailing down a mountain. Listen. Bluuuuu-raaay.[/QUOTE]
Seriously "HD" sounds like a veneral disease.

I think HD-DVD supporters should be reffered to as "HD positive".
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']I still don't get how you interpret that quote as "What should the BDA do to help consumers get around the HD-DVD shift of Paramount"[/quote]
he's asking the BDA rep. therefore the question as to how is directed at the BDA. its regarding customers though.
[quote name='mykevermin']Yesyesyes, that's well and good. Since you're obviously such a staunch critic of PR spin, what suggestions do you have for Toshiba's recent bullshit spin of Sony's announcement that BR stand-alones outsold HD DVD stand-alones for May through July?

ceteris paribus, you know. ;)[/quote]
tu quoque, you know. ;)

they did? where? in europe, HD DVD has 74% of the SA market (yea i know PS3, pls dont rant for an hour about that; its been gone over probably 100 times in this thread).

i would have to know what their bs spin was before i could have an opinon on it. could you provide that?
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']Seriously "HD" sounds like a veneral disease.

I think HD-DVD supporters should be reffered to as "HD positive".[/quote]
sounds more like a blood type to me.

Oh youre BD+ :lol:
 
[quote name='dpatel']Oh, but you are. Your original statement:
its hilarious because that's a plain ridiculous statement. he never said "if you dont have a HD DVD player" (let alone "if you already have a BR player but not a HD DVD). he just made the assumption that NOBODY has a HD DVD player or could even want one. much less him basically admitting that the reason BD players cost more is because they want to fleece the public for longer. which has been known by many (yet not acknowledged) for a long time, see:

We've already been over this multiple times. There is no logical reason for him to incorporate current HD-DVD owners in his answer. It seems you have conceded this point long ago, as you are now bringing all sorts of unrelated arguments.[/quote] wait how? you still didnt answer me. how did i change my argument? explain
and of course he didnt include HD DVD into his answer, it was included in the QUESTION to the BDA rep. thus the question included HD DVD addressed to the BDA. HD DVD and Blu-ray; NO DVD.
How did you get that, from this?:
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the best buy HDTV analogy was regarding the BDA rep's Answer. NOT the question asked. so maybe thats why youre not connecting it.
Are you sure?:
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yes im sure. i NEVER said the BDA would/should do something. what youre quoting (out of context) was in regards to what the reporter could have hoped for in an answer. like i already said, chances are slim he'd actually get a real announcement since thats what press releases are for; but he could hope for a tidbit. it was to illustrate the reporters intention, NOT what either format's organizations should do.
Well, that was your initial suggestion:


You are just contradicting yourself left and right.
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no im not contradicting myself. because again its being taken out of context. i didnt say he SHOULD say that. i said he could have just as easily said that. as in its equally ridiculous to suggest DVD as it is to recommend the competing format. which btw is exactly what i said in the quote im supposedly contradicting myself in. it was meant to illustrate the dichotomy between what would have been the most honest answer and what would have been the most perverse (suggesting DVD).
 
[quote name='geko29']Not really, he's just easy to poke fun at. This is, after all, the same guy who just said one of the biggest advantages of Blu-Ray is the players sell at substantial margins, and he thinks consumers are smart enough to see the benefit of larger profits for his company and want to spend the extra money. :)[/quote] yea, im surprised youre the first to pick up on that. or maybe youre just the first to admit it :whistle2:$:rofl:
 
[quote name='propeller_head']he's asking the BDA rep. therefore the question as to how is directed at the BDA. its regarding customers though.

tu quoque, you know. ;)

they did? where? in europe, HD DVD has 74% of the SA market (yea i know PS3, pls dont rant for an hour about that; its been gone over probably 100 times in this thread).

i would have to know what their bs spin was before i could have an opinon on it. could you provide that?[/QUOTE]

"In light of recent comments made regarding high definition stand-alone video players sales, Toshiba would like to reiterate its continued industry leading sales figures. Based on July data from NPD, Toshiba had a 55% market share year to date in high definition stand alone player sales followed by all Blu-ray companies at a combined 42%; the final 3 percent is held by dual format players.

While the competition may claim leadership based on one month of data, Toshiba has had continued sales leadership in every month since the original HD DVD players launched 17 months ago.

Toshiba is and continues to be a top seller at retailers such as Amazon, most recently reaching #1 on the site last week. As third generation players begin to come to market at the end of this month, Toshiba has full confidence that it will continue its momentum and lead in player sales. Additional information HD DVD and Toshiba’s players can be found at http://www.toshibahddvd.com"
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Seeing as how Sony's claim was about stand-alone sales dominance over the most recent three month period, and Toshiba's response was about YTD (apples to oranges); and moreover, they ignored the mathematical necessity that, if they started off this year with 70% of the market, and are currently at 55%, they have been outsold considerably at some point since the start of the year; and moreover, that they rest on the laurels of the flimsiest of statistics (Amazon sales ranks, which I mentioned in an earlier post). These things combined form a dreadnaught of pure unadulterated bullshit. I'm surprised that you couldn't see through that, o Carnac the Great.
 
[quote name='propeller_head']wait how? you still didnt answer me. how did i change my argument? explain
and of course he didnt include HD DVD into his answer, it was included in the QUESTION to the BDA rep. thus the question included HD DVD addressed to the BDA. HD DVD and Blu-ray; NO DVD.[/QUOTE]

Please read the question again. In no way is DVD excluded.

the best buy HDTV analogy was regarding the BDA rep's Answer. NOT the question asked. so maybe thats why youre not connecting it.
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I wasn't talking about the Best Buy portion. I was talking about the part where you said DVD has NOTHING to do with it. I'm reading the question again, and I don't see anything that says that. Maybe you can clarify for me.

yes im sure. i NEVER said the BDA would/should do something. what youre quoting (out of context) was in regards to what the reporter could have hoped for in an answer. like i already said, chances are slim he'd actually get a real announcement since thats what press releases are for; but he could hope for a tidbit. it was to illustrate the reporters intention, NOT what either format's organizations should do.

no im not contradicting myself. because again its being taken out of context. i didnt say he SHOULD say that. i said he could have just as easily said that. as in its equally ridiculous to suggest DVD as it is to recommend the competing format. which btw is exactly what i said in the quote im supposedly contradicting myself in.
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Please put it in context for me. I'll quote the entire post for you, to help.
[quote name='propeller_head']wrong. your whole premise is based on assumptions. you make it seem like it has to be a misunderstanding because sony would never say something so asinine
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...ray_Marketing_Message:_Format_War_is_Over/468

the "Getting around" he's talking about was primarily aimed at him re: what "consumers" (aka the general public) should do re: the lack of viacom titles now. he could have easily said "they will have to make due on HD DVD until the 18 months is over and the contract is open for negotiations". no, he instead say buy it on DVD because BD players will upscale it. what he's attempting to do is spin it so he avoids acknowledging that until at least 2009 the format war will continue. he's towing the BDA line trying his best (considering the situation) to play down even the existence of HD DVD.

im surprised you cant see the PR spin, its plain as day.[/QUOTE]

Now, please put this in context. Because, from what I can see, it looks like you are suggesting that he persuade consumers to support the competition. But, that contradicts this statement:
uh no. if he said "buy HD DVD" i'd imagine he'd be fired that day. just go back and reread my posts if you want. because ive already gone over this more than once and im tired of repeating it.
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I apologize if I am taking these out of context again. If I am, please correct me, and show me what context these quotes should be in.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Seeing as how Sony's claim was about stand-alone sales dominance over the most recent three month period, and Toshiba's response was about YTD (apples to oranges); and moreover, they ignored the mathematical necessity that, if they started off this year with 70% of the market, and are currently at 55%, they have been outsold considerably at some point since the start of the year; and moreover, that they rest on the laurels of the flimsiest of statistics (Amazon sales ranks, which I mentioned in an earlier post). These things combined form a dreadnaught of pure unadulterated bullshit. I'm surprised that you couldn't see through that, o Carnac the Great.[/quote] uh how could i see through something i never ever saw in the first place. i asked you to provied their pr spin so i could see it.

sometimes i really think you only post to be a prick.

now like i said in europe (IFA & CEDIA are European trade shows) as of now HD DVD has 74% market share. sony may have 51% (im just guessing here because they didnt provide actual figures and the VB article just says now exceeds 50%) for the month; but toshiba was justified in rebutting sony's statement that they were in the lead re SA players, yea. i agree w/ you that the amazon bit is PR BS though. the way i see it people go to amazon for deals because they arent willing to pay MSRP. so HD DVD will continue to outsell BD on Amazon because of that. BD sales will probably continue to outpace HD DVD sales on amazon because of the PS3 install base looking for cheap movies. the PS3 install base being mostly young males who are internet savvy and likely pinching pennies.

HOWEVER, the data sony's figures were based on came from the NPD group. one of the retailers the NPD group does not include sales from is amazon. amazon being the worlds largest online retailer (Wal-mart being the worlds largest retailer, which also isnt included in NPD); i can see why Toshiba would include that w/ their rebuttal. but Amazon figures alone arent a accurate source for market data, yes.

another trend i find weird is that player sales would have to increase significantly for SA BD players to catch up; but disc sales have almost halved for both formats since year end 2k6. from 70k a week to 35k a week for BD and from 42k a week for HD DVD to 20k a week.

looking back at DVD (according to CEA historical figures) SA player sales should be about 400% what they are now come holiday season. it'll be interesting to see if BD players can get cheap fast enough to compete w/ HD DVD for people's gift $hopping.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Please read the question again. In no way is DVD excluded.



I wasn't talking about the Best Buy portion. I was talking about the part where you said DVD has NOTHING to do with it. I'm reading the question again, and I don't see anything that says that. Maybe you can clarify for me.



Please put it in context for me. I'll quote the entire post for you, to help.


Now, please put this in context. Because, from what I can see, it looks like you are suggesting that he persuade consumers to support the competition. But, that contradicts this statement:


I apologize if I am taking these out of context again. If I am, please correct me, and show me what context these quotes should be in.[/quote] he didnt have to Explicitly exclude DVD. the question was related to the existing & potential HD market. DVD wasn't part of the equation. like i said before, would you appreciate a salesman trying to convince you to buy a SDTV because the HDTV you want is out of stock? that it's just as good because you cant notice the difference anyway? no

the best buy portion was meant to illustarate how DVD had nothing to do w/ it (it being the reporters intention).

i already put it in context for you, like i said i never said he SHOULD say "buy HD DVD". i would think that should be obvious. i was saying he could have just as easily said that. as in its equally ridiculous. honestly, i feel like were goin in circles here. if we cant come to an understanding even after i clarify i dont think this ride is ever going to end. maybe its when i said "instead" thats throwing you off, i didnt mean he should say it "instead". i said that he could have easily said that "instead". again, because recc'ing DVD is just as asanine as reccomendnig the competition imo.
 
see, looks like im not alone in thinking it was humorous.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9772069-1.html?tag=cnetfd.mt

Sep 5 2007
Blu-ray to buyers: Be smart, pay more

The format war between HD DVD and Blu-ray can cause some heated arguments from fan boys on both sides, but I think all fans of high-definition discs will get a kick out of this story. In an article by Pocket-lint, not only did Sony executive Don Eklund invite Toshiba and Microsoft to join the Blu-ray camp (ha-ha), but Vice President Rich Marty dropped this gem of a quote:

"The DVD format was good, but profitability only lasted for a couple of years before there was no money to be had in the hardware market," said Marty. "We believe consumers are smart enough to realise the benefits and pay the extra accordingly."
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Note to Sony: consumers don't care that DVDs aren't profitable for hardware makers, as demonstrated by DVD being one of the biggest success stories in consumer electronics history. And if being smart is paying more, then those who shelled out $600 for an iPhone nine weeks ago, only to see it drop to $400 today, must feel like geniuses. One more quote from the Pocket-lint article:

And as for how consumers are supposed to get around the Dreamworks and Paramount shift to HD DVD? "Buy it on DVD," Marty suggested--before quickly adding that Blu-ray players have upscaling features so you can still get the most out of the picture quality.
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That quote says a lot, and it's not good news for Blu-ray. As much as HD DVD and Blu-ray go back and forth, the biggest threat to both high-def formats is standard DVD, where you can get any movie you want, at a cheap price, that plays on a cheap player. HD DVD (and Blu-ray) may be the look and sound of perfect, but for most people, DVD is the look and sound of good enough.
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& props (no pun intended) to geko29 who was neutral enough to appreciate the irony.
 
[quote name='propeller_head']& props (no pun intended) to geko29 who was neutral enough to appreciate the irony.[/quote]
Neutral enough? Methinks you've forgotten that I have more HD DVDs than probably anybody else on this board. :)

And no BDs. :)
 
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