- LOCK - Format War - HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray - LOCK -

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[quote name='seanr1221']A combo player would solve all problems if one format dies. I have the same fear with Blu-ray, and it's why I've only bought 5 movies in 7 months.[/QUOTE]

Cause your PS3 and discs will quit working if Blu-ray loses the "war"?
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Myke tries to pull it out like a trump card as if they had to split the movie across two disc or only encoded it in 720p; when in reality it's about a far down the totem pole as possible on the scale of what matters. Hell, The Prestige which everybody said didn't have lossless audio on HD-DVD because they ran out of disc space is being released in Japan next year with TrueHD.[/QUOTE]

When audio specs for 'Transformers' were announced, there was a collective sigh of disappointment from early adopters when High-Def-Digest learned that there would be no high-res audio tracks included on this disc. Given that this is such a flagship title for the studio, the decision was quite the head-scratcher.

Indeed, High-Def-Digest had the opportunity to attend a special 'Transformers' media event with Paramount late last week, and the question was asked almost immediately -- why no Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM? The studio's answer was that due to space limitations on the disc, the decision was made to limit the audio to Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround only (here at 1.5mbps). Unfortunately, this confirms the long-held theory that the 30Gb capacity of an HD-30 dual-layer HD DVD disc has forced studios to choose between offering a robust supplements package (as they've done here) and the very best in audio quality.
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http://www.n4g.com/News-74839.aspx

Being right all the time doesn't make it any less delicious, just for the record. ;)

cea04_08.jpg


90/10 sales ratio in Japan. How 'bout them apples?

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20071019/rt043.htm

And, for the trifecta, something you HD DVD folks already knew, but just to rub it in a bit more, this time from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN2352882020071023

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Blu-ray DVD titles outsold rival HD-DVD titles by almost 2-to-1 in the first nine months of the year, but analysts expect additional HD-DVD support and new hit releases to "transform" the high-definition DVD battle score in the fourth quarter.

Home Media Research, a division of Home Media Magazine, said on Tuesday total U.S. sales of Blu-ray discs, using a Sony Corp (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research)-backed technology, totaled 2.6 million units from January 1 through Sept 30, versus 1.4 million HD-DVD discs sold.
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The only glimmer of hope for HD DVD folks in the article comes in the form of predictions of HD DVD performance. I'm willing to wager the media will be as correct about that as they were about the housing market bubble not bursting. :lol:
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']Cause your PS3 and discs will quit working if Blu-ray loses the "war"?[/QUOTE]

Or because I dont wish to invest money in a format that's not guaranteed to be around?
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Or because I dont wish to invest money in a format that's not guaranteed to be around?[/QUOTE]
What I'm saying though is that either way your investment isn't really a waste. You already have a blu ray player in the form of a PS3. The HD-DVD drive for 360 is so ridiculously cheap already and has so many freebies this week at BB, it might as well be free. The discs you buy will still work no matter what the war's outcome may be.

Not only that but the word "invest" and technology never, ever be combined because technology, unless its in the form of stocks in a technology company, is always a losing venture.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Or because I dont wish to invest money in a format that's not guaranteed to be around?[/QUOTE]

The movies you buy won't just disappear. DVDs eventually won't be the standard but that doesn't keep me from buying them.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']http://www.n4g.com/News-74839.aspx

Being right all the time doesn't make it any less delicious, just for the record. ;)[/QUOTE]

So, again, they picked to pack it with extras instead of loseless sound because extras move discs and loseless sound doesn't, what's the point?

Do you think it's impossible to re-release a movie with no extras/TrueHD on one disc sometime in the future when demand dictates it or that compression won't improve one bit?

[quote name='mykevermin']tons of unrelated shit, that have nothing to do with anything I posted[/QUOTE]

See what I mean by

[quote name='Sporadic']Why respond with a giant rant when my post will either be completely ignored, cherry-picked or thrown off-topic?[/QUOTE]

but that's ok, keep patting yourself on the back myke, one day you'll be a winner just like Barry Horowitz.

----------

- edit [quote name='RedvsBlue']Not only that but the word "invest" and technology never, ever be combined because technology, unless its in the form of stocks in a technology company, is always a losing venture.[/QUOTE]

Now that is 100% true.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']So, again, they picked to pack it with extras instead of loseless sound because extras move discs and loseless sound doesn't, what's the point?

Do you think it's impossible to re-release a movie with no extras/TrueHD on one disc something in the future when demand dictates it or that compression won't improve one bit?[/quote]

I'm just saying that, just because a BD-50 could easily hold ALL OF THAT, you shouldn't be so defensive. Just accept that a DL HD DVD disc is insufficient and deal with it.

See what I mean by

but that's ok, keep patting yourself on the back myke, one day you'll be a winner just like Barry Horowitz.
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What did I ignore? As for the "unrelated" stuff, they're just topics relevant to the discussion at hand in this thread. That discussion being the dominance of Blu-Ray as a format. It's perfectly relevant to this thread, much unlike your crying temper tantrum that I'm pointing out information to you, and others here, that don't make you very happy or confident in your consumer decisions. But, hey, 190,000 Transformers, right? After all, Paramount must have access to NPD/Nielsen data 6 days before everyone else. ;)
 
[quote name='mykevermin'] But, hey, 190,000 Transformers, right? After all, Paramount must have access to NPD/Nielsen data 6 days before everyone else. ;)[/QUOTE]


Units shipped is ok to go by unless you are Sony.
 
Sporadic, why should the 2% of people who can benefit from the lossless audio have to suffer, and not have it on their disc, especially since ALL Hd-dvd players are mandated to support Dolby TrueHD? Is it really that big of deal? No, most people don';t look at extras nor can they take advantage of it being there. However, there is still a deficiency that it has and if they did it for the fact that they could "double-dip" later should not be excused, nor should it be a valid reason, and I say this with both sides, Blu-ray and HD-dvd. And doesn't the fact that a BD-50 can do all of that just prove that the extra space is necessary and the superior format?
 
[quote name='orimental']Wait, My Sassy Girl in HD?[/QUOTE]

Well I was just giving examples of some good Foreign and Art flicks as well as high profile one's. Most are out on either format except for "My Sassy Girl", "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon", "Shawshank Redemption" and "A Tale Of Two Sisters". As it stands "My Sassy Girl" was going to hit HD DVD in Japan and then it was delayed with no release date in sight.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']Well I was just giving examples of some good Foreign and Art flicks as well as high profile one's. Most are out on either format except for "My Sassy Girl", "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon", "Shawshank Redemption" and "A Tale Of Two Sisters". As it stands "My Sassy Girl" was going to hit HD DVD in Japan and then it was delayed with no release date in sight.[/quote]

Shawshank Redemption is controlled by Warner Bros and being released soon, I don't know exactly when but it is.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm just saying that, just because a BD-50 could easily hold ALL OF THAT, you shouldn't be so defensive. Just accept that a DL HD DVD disc is insufficient and deal with it.[/QUOTE]

Too bad none of the companies actually take advantage of that but then again, extras aren't important RIGHT???

[quote name='mykevermin']What did I ignore? [/QUOTE]

Just about 95% of every single post I make in here.

[quote name='mykevermin']As for the "unrelated" stuff, they're just topics relevant to the discussion at hand in this thread. That discussion being the dominance of Blu-Ray as a format. [/QUOTE]

Actually I went from talking about Micheal Bay being an uninformed douche to talking about what's more important, loseless sound or extras, to now why I almost completely ignore/make fun of everything you say because hey what the fuck's the point if you keep rolling after every single post I make or think of every HD-DVD fan as some mindless "anonymous"

You lose at my points so you try to move on to a different subject that you can "win" at.


[quote name='mykevermin']much unlike your crying temper tantrum that I'm pointing out information to you[/QUOTE]

Yep, facts/opinions now = crying temper tantrums. You're motto should be "ignore the giant elephant in the room"


[quote name='mykevermin']and others here[/QUOTE]

ONE OF US ONE OF US


[quote name='mykevermin']that don't make you very happy or confident in your consumer decisions.[/QUOTE]

I've said about a million times that combo players will become the standard so of course I'm happy/confident with my decision. I get to watch movies in HD at a low price point plus I get stuff that isn't avaliable anywhere else (my sexy Band Of Brothers 1-5/Machinist I paid $103 shipped for) and eventually I'll get everything and this conversation won't even matter.

If anything you are the one who isn't very happy or confident in your consumer decision since only thing you keep rambling about is Paramount taking DIRTY BRIBE MONEY or how poor HD-DVD can fit the loseless audio you can't even access on a disc or how Blu-Ray is outselling HD-DVD 989465415:1 in Iran or Japan (Xbox 1 anybody?)

But hey congrats again on having a completely pitful attach rate despite horribly outnumbering HD-DVD players and managing to lose a studio (and soon to be Warner if they decide to drop a format) even though you are totally raping HD-DVD
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Shawshank Redemption is controlled by Warner Bros and being released soon, I don't know exactly when but it is.[/QUOTE]

It's been delayed since 2006, hopefully it will come some time in early 2008.

- edit [quote name='H.Cornerstone']Sporadic, why should the 2% of people who can benefit from the lossless audio have to suffer, and not have it on their disc, especially since ALL Hd-dvd players are mandated to support Dolby TrueHD? Is it really that big of deal? [/QUOTE]

Sadly, not everybody gets their way. Paramount chose extras over lossless. Then again, I'll admit I'm not one to talk for TrueHD/lossless since I don't have a system that could do it and honestly I don't give a shit about it one way or another.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']No, most people don';t look at extras nor can they take advantage of it being there. However, there is still a deficiency that it has and if they did it for the fact that they could "double-dip" later should not be excused, nor should it be a valid reason,[/QUOTE]

Most people go "oh look at that added feature, I'm really getting my moneys-worth" and that's that. Loseless doesn't sell disc yet, period. And you act like this is the first time a company is planning a double-dip. Warner's Blade Runner and Sony's Spiderman 1-2 all scream "there's going to be a double-dip in the future"

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']And doesn't the fact that a BD-50 can do all of that just prove that the extra space is necessary and the superior format?[/QUOTE]

No because Blu-Ray couldn't even do the extras on the Transformers disc.
 
Sporadic, actually a lot of companies do put extra's on their Blu-ray releases, it's just that no players can actaully read a lot of them.


And I don't see Warner bro's dropping Blu-ray any time soon unless Toshiba buys them out too. Their titles are jsut selling WAY to much on Blu-ray.
 
[quote name='Sporadic'] and managing to lose a studio (and soon to be Warner if they decide to drop a format) [/QUOTE]

Or if Universal decides to go neutral after seeing how Warner sells way more blu ray titles than HD DVDs.






See I can make up stuff too.
 
Again...you make this allusion to all your wonderful points, but actually fail to mention a single point you've made. Your posts are full of petty insults and conjecture, with the occasional spin of a perfectly valid point (regarding lossless audio), as well as the overgeneralization of a fact trudged into a territory where it no longer holds true ("Too bad none of the companies actually take advantage of that but then again, extras aren't important RIGHT???" - of course you're right, as no Blu-Ray disc ever featured extras, after all :roll:).

Let me be clear: you make a point worth responding to, and I'll probably respond to it. Continue to act like a temper-tantrum throwing prat, and dare claim that your crying and moaning consists of "facts" (find me a single fact in any of your posts from today), and I'll simply stop responding at all. I eagerly anticipate your followup post where you address nothing and goad me into ignoring you.
 
[quote name='rodeojones903']Or if Universal decides to go neutral after seeing how Warner sells way more blu ray titles than HD DVDs.






See I can make up stuff too.[/quote]

I see what you did there.
 
[quote name='rodeojones903']Or if Universal decides to go neutral after seeing how Warner sells way more blu ray titles than HD DVDs.

See I can make up stuff too.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, let's see what's going to happen.

Universal, who has always been HD-DVD exclusive, is just going to roll over and go neutral this far in after everything they've been through

OR

Warner, who was originally HD-DVD exclusive along with Paramount, who filed a complaint with the SEC back in 2002 against Sony for their actions with Blu-Ray/DVD Forum, who are leading the way in HD extras, who founded a group with Toshiba/Microsoft about those same exclusives they are trailblazing in just a few months ago are going to completely about face and go with Blu-Ray if (if being the keyword) they decide to drop neutrality.

Yeah, I love calling making an educated guess after looking at the facts "making stuff up"

- edit [quote name='H.Cornerstone']And I don't see Warner bro's dropping Blu-ray any time soon unless Toshiba buys them out too. Their titles are jsut selling WAY to much on Blu-ray.[/QUOTE]

It's a drop in the bucket if they decide to drop a format to cut cost or take a sweet check like Paramount did.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Let me be clear: you make a point worth responding to, and I'll probably respond to it. Continue to act like a temper-tantrum throwing prat, and dare claim that your crying and moaning consists of "facts" (find me a single fact in any of your posts from today), and I'll simply stop responding at all. I eagerly anticipate your followup post where you address nothing and goad me into ignoring you.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, just stop then.

If you don't think I've brought up one fact in any of my posts from today, you're beyond talking to.

I could go back, highlight every single fact and post it for you but why should I? It will just be written off as "crying and moaning" and you calling me a "temper-tantrum throwing prat" while patting yourself on the back for getting the last word in or owning me.

Shit, I shouldn't even be making this post because you are just going to chalk it up as a win for some inane reason.

Congrats myke, I'm completely sick of your transparent shit and having you attempt to change the topic with every new post or taking my long serious attempts at conversation/debate with you and having it widdled down into one sentence, ignoring everything I say or pointing out a spelling error. You are a big man and a master debater. (I can't wait for you to widdle that whole thing down into the final sentance and parade around the thread as the winner or put it in your sig as the ultimate shame)
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']I have never seen someone get so bent out of shape over a deal. You really need to examine your reason for coming here looking for deals if actually finding a good one is going to cause you so to be so distraught.[/QUOTE]

You obviously have not been following the BOGOs or Fry's deals very well.

Resident Evil Apoc. comes out on Blu-ray. I buy it for $24.99 at Best Buy.
BOOM, 2 weeks later its BOGO (or $9.99 each)

Cruel Intentions comes out on Blu-ray. I buy it for $20 online.
BOOM, next week its BOGO (or 9.99 each)

Hellboy comes out on Blu-ray. I, being smart, pass on it.
BOOM, next week its BOGO (or 9.99 each)

Underworld comes out on Blu-ray. I, being smart yet again, pass on it.
BOOM, 2 weeks later its BOGO (or 9.99 each)

Do you seem a pattern here with Sony titles? Why the hell would I buy ANY Sony/Buena movie if its going to be on BOGO 1-3 weeks later? Hostel I and II can wait. I'm sure BOGO will happen AGAIN when Shrek 3 comes out.

These are just some examples of movies I noticed. Take a look at any of the Sony/Buena catalog titles for those release weeks and they were half off shortly after. Feel free to wander over to other forums (AVS, DVDTalk) as MANY others are avoiding catalog titles on release week by Sony/Buena for this very reason.

Top of my head I can think of the above titles as well as Memoirs of a Giesha, Curse of the Golden Flower, Big Fish, Dracula, Final Fantasy, Immortal Beloved, Layer Cake, The Patriot, Wild Things...etc. Thats just from the most recent Frys sale. All those titles came out within 2-3 weeks of the sale, some barley a week.

Imagine if this happened for certain publishers on video games. If there was a trend where a $60 game was $30 1-3 weeks later, wouldn't you just wait?
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']You obviously have not been following the BOGOs or Fry's deals very well.
[/QUOTE]

I bought 3 movies from Fry's and 2 from amazon so I am aware of the sale. I just don't buy any movie at full price which is why I didn't know you had gotten hit so hard by the sale.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']I bought 3 movies from Fry's and 2 from amazon so I am aware of the sale. I just don't buy any movie at full price which is why I didn't know you had gotten hit so hard by the sale.[/QUOTE]

A lot of people will buy a movie on release week. Now with these BOGO sales happening every 3 weeks, why buy any title at all (besides day and dates) on release week?
 
[quote name='dallow']Haha, Michael Bay speaks again:

http://usatoday.com/life/movies/dvd/2007-10-22-transformers-bay_N.htm[/QUOTE]

What a whiney little bitch. Does he even know the difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray or is it just that his friends say "its cool" because they all got PS3s?

I'd love to just flat out ask him to tell me what studios are exclusive to what format and say 10 random movies exclusive to both formats to see if he can tell me which one is exclusive to where. My bet, he wouldn't be able to answer either question.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']A lot of people will buy a movie on release week. Now with these BOGO sales happening every 3 weeks, why buy any title at all (besides day and dates) on release week?[/quote]

Casino Royale, TMNT, 300, Terminator 2 and Black Hawk Down have yet to be on a B1g1 free sale!
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']
I'd love to just flat out ask him to tell me what studios are exclusive to what format and say 10 random movies exclusive to both formats to see if he can tell me which one is exclusive to where. My bet, he wouldn't be able to answer either question.[/QUOTE]


You thinking you know more about the movie industry than Michael Bay is hilarious.
 
[quote name='GizmoGC']A lot of people will buy a movie on release week. Now with these BOGO sales happening every 3 weeks, why buy any title at all (besides day and dates) on release week?[/quote]

Casino Royale, TMNT, 300, Terminator 2 and Black Hawk Down have yet to be on a B1g1 free sale!
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Casino Royale, TMNT, 300, Terminator 2 and Black Hawk Down have yet to be on a B1g1 free sale![/QUOTE]

Casino Royale was part of the CC B1G1 free sale. Black Hawk Down was 9.99 at Fry's.
 
There was a recent news blurb that said that there was some kind of breakthrough in the use, and standardization of, organic dyes in bluray recordable discs. Not sure of the technical details, but the article goes on to say that this opens up the way for more mass production of bluray discs at the same facilities that produce DVDs and CDs.

However, I could be wrong or the article could be fake. Can anyone comment? The article is here.

http://www.itnews.it/2007/102312180...le-blu-ray-discs-with-metal-nitride-film.html
 
[quote name='Vanigan']There was a recent news blurb that said that there was some kind of breakthrough in the use, and standardization of, organic dyes in bluray recordable discs. Not sure of the technical details, but the article goes on to say that this opens up the way for more mass production of bluray discs at the same facilities that produce DVDs and CDs.

However, I could be wrong or the article could be fake. Can anyone comment? The article is here.

http://www.itnews.it/2007/102312180...le-blu-ray-discs-with-metal-nitride-film.html[/QUOTE]

With this standardization, the mass production of organic dye recording media has now become possible with BD-R. Discs with organic dye do not require large-scale investments in facilities so that the current coating facilities for CD-R and DVD-R can be used for BD production lines with only minor adjustments, making low priced discs a possibility.
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That seems to be the relevant paragraph. Seems to confirm what you're saying, but I'll be damned if I will say it's true or not. Someone call factmaster Sporadic to confirm!
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Casino Royale, TMNT, 300, Terminator 2 and Black Hawk Down have yet to be on a B1g1 free sale![/quote] Black Hawk Down is on BOGO at BB THIS WEEK, actually.

And I don't want to get myself in the middle of the current pissing match, but I'll point out that the "unnamed Paramount executives" are stupid--or more likely, they don't exist. Transformers is 26GB, meaning there's 5GB free on the disc (an HD30 is actually a little over 31GB). Meaning if they knocked the DD+ track down to 640Kbps, there'd be enough room for 7.1 24/96 LPCM. (6.9mbps * 143 minutes = 5.9GB). Any flavor of TrueHD or DTS-HD MA (even 7.1 24/192) would have fit no problem without changing anything else. Paramount decided to forgo lossless for some reason other than disc space. But:
1) It's a 5-star rated audio track from pretty much every reveiwer.
2) To the best of my knowledge, I'm the only person here who has the equipment to fully appreciate even a lossy DD+ track, let alone a lossless one. I don't see why you're all so bent out of shape about it.
 
[quote name='Vanigan']There was a recent news blurb that said that there was some kind of breakthrough in the use, and standardization of, organic dyes in bluray recordable discs. Not sure of the technical details, but the article goes on to say that this opens up the way for more mass production of bluray discs at the same facilities that produce DVDs and CDs.

However, I could be wrong or the article could be fake. Can anyone comment? The article is here.

http://www.itnews.it/2007/1023121801565/pioneer-and-mitsubishi-kagaku-announce-use-of-organic-dye-recording-film-in-blu-ray-recordable-discs-and-technology-for-recordable-blu-ray-discs-with-metal-nitride-film.html[/quote]

It's great news for anybody planning on using BD-R for PC storage--this should mean blanks are cheaper to produce and thus may wind up costing less at retail. But it's totally irrelevant to the movie situation because movies are put on BD-ROM, not BD-R.
 
[quote name='geko29']Black Hawk Down is on BOGO at BB THIS WEEK, actually.

And I don't want to get myself in the middle of the current pissing match, but I'll point out that the "unnamed Paramount executives" are stupid--or more likely, they don't exist. Transformers is 26GB, meaning there's 5GB free on the disc (an HD30 is actually a little over 31GB). Meaning if they knocked the DD+ track down to 640Kbps, there'd be enough room for 7.1 24/96 LPCM. (6.9mbps * 143 minutes = 5.9GB). Any flavor of TrueHD or DTS-HD MA (even 7.1 24/192) would have fit no problem without changing anything else. Paramount decided to forgo lossless for some reason other than disc space. But:
1) It's a 5-star rated audio track from pretty much every reveiwer.
2) To the best of my knowledge, I'm the only person here who has the equipment to fully appreciate even a lossy DD+ track, let alone a lossless one. I don't see why you're all so bent out of shape about it.[/QUOTE]

It's more the point of the concessions being made due to storage space. In its current configuration, as you point out, there is not enough space. There might have been, but cuts would have to have been made elsewhere (which again reinforces the space limitations of HD DVD).

As far as "appreciating it" is concerned, I don't believe that's the point. Audio gets a bum rap while video gets all the glory (as I'm sure someone with a nice Onkyo setup (not namin' names, just sayin' :lol:) could appreciate). If they had dropped the video output in order to save space, people would have collectively shit a brick if Transformers maxed out at 1080i or 720p. Why should anyone settle for lesser quality audio?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']It's more the point of the concessions being made due to storage space. In its current configuration, as you point out, there is not enough space. There might have been, but cuts would have to have been made elsewhere (which again reinforces the space limitations of HD DVD).[/quote] No, I didn't point out there wasn't enough space. I pointed out that they could have done soundtracks with higher specs than Disney does on blu-ray. Disney typically does 5.1 24/48 LPCM plus 640kbps DD, though they've recently started doing 5.1 24/48 TrueHD instead of the LPCM. There is enough room on Transformers for 7.1 24/96 LPCM plus 640kbps DD+. 5.1 24/48 LPCM, as Disney uses, would have fit with no modifications--ie keeping the 1.5Mbps 24/48 DD+. TrueHD would have taken even less space, and allowed for a 24-bit 5.1 or 7.1 track with a sampling rate FOUR TIMES higher than what has been done on any title on either format (except for Nature's Journey, which is 96khz, so only two times there), again without making ANY changes to the existing material on the disc.

How does "there is enough disc space to include a soundtrack with higher specs than any that has ever been released on either format" translate into "there isn't enough space"?

And the point is that it's not lesser quality audio. Professional sound mixers have repeatedly stated that a high bitrate 24-bit lossy track is impossible to tell from the master, as opposed to the typical 16-bit "lossless" tracks that most HD DVDs and Blu-Rays use, which is EASY to tell from the master.
 
[quote name='Richlough']Did it hurt when Sony put that chip in your head ?
How big is the scar ?[/quote]That's all have you have to say?
You buy the dumb little add on, never post here, and this is all you say?

Haha. Right.
 
[quote name='geko29']No, I didn't point out there wasn't enough space. I pointed out that they could have done soundtracks with higher specs than Disney does on blu-ray. Disney typically does 5.1 24/48 LPCM plus 640kbps DD, though they've recently started doing 5.1 24/48 TrueHD instead of the LPCM. There is enough room on Transformers for 7.1 24/96 LPCM plus 640kbps DD+. 5.1 24/48 LPCM, as Disney uses, would have fit with no modifications--ie keeping the 1.5Mbps 24/48 DD+. TrueHD would have taken even less space, and allowed for a 24-bit 5.1 or 7.1 track with a sampling rate FOUR TIMES higher than what has been done on any title on either format (except for Nature's Journey, which is 96khz, so only two times there), again without making ANY changes to the existing material on the disc.

How does "there is enough disc space to include a soundtrack with higher specs than any that has ever been released on either format" translate into "there isn't enough space"?

And the point is that it's not lesser quality audio. Professional sound mixers have repeatedly stated that a high bitrate 24-bit lossy track is impossible to tell from the master, as opposed to the typical 16-bit "lossless" tracks that most HD DVDs and Blu-Rays use, which is EASY to tell from the master.[/quote]Speaking of Nature's Journey, it's specs don't even match that of the BD edition because of bandwidth issues.

The BD is the same VC1 encode, but at 37mbps. HD DVD is at peak 28.
The BD uses a DTS HD-MA lossless audio track.
The HD DVD just has DTS High Resolution.

You've read the producers comments on AVS, I'm sure you could read between the lines.
 
[quote name='dallow']Speaking of Nature's Journey, it's specs don't even match that of the BD edition because of bandwidth issues.

The BD is the same VC1 encode, but at 37mbps. HD DVD is at peak 28.
The BD uses a DTS HD-MA lossless audio track.
The HD DVD just has DTS High Resolution.

You've read the producers comments on AVS, I'm sure you could read between the lines.[/quote]
Oh I could. And I can also read the analysis and reviews, which determined that even when playing on a 120" or larger screen, it's impossible to tell the difference between the two encodes. Only if you pause the film (which is problematic to begin with since it's a 1080i source) and get 6" away from said 120" screen can you notice TEENY TINY differences in a few small out of the way places. So in this case (a rather difficult one, I might add, being 30fps, 1.78:1, interlaced, and full of motion), at least, the extra 11Mbps of video bandwitdth produced absolutely no benefit whatsoever to people who actually WATCH movies. People who like to freeze frame and zoom in on the picture, or watch their bitrate meter all day long will, of course, still be able to feel good about themselves.

NJ is a perfect example of why a VC-1 encode of 26Mbps or higher will never ever be necessary for a film--especially considering films have 20% fewer frames to encode in the first place. And yes, I do have NJ and I have watched it. It's breathtakingly beautiful (demo material if I've ever seen any) but pretty boring, unfortunately.

But that's neither here nor there where Transformers is concerned. People (nearly all Blu-Ray fans, I've noticed) bemoan the lack of lossless on Transformers, whithout stopping to realize that the 16-bit "lossless" typical on BOTH formats has an ABR of 1.4Mbps when losslessly compressed. Yes, that's right, a 16/48 TrueHD soundtrack is SMALLER than the 24/48 DD+ track that Paramount provided.

So why did they do it? I don't know. Maybe they did both encodes, found there was no perceptible difference between them, and decided to go with the one that every player that has or ever will be released can play back properly (since TrueHD is only required in 2.0 for some reason). Maybe they just didn't want to. We can't know. What we do know is that, by all rights and purposes this DD+ track is among the best ever released on either format. I haven't had a chance to watch it and verify that for myself yet (finals week--ugh), but that's what every single reviewer has said so far.
 
And the audio difference on NJ?

It doesn't matter if the difference is teeny tiny.
HD DVD has to be at peak in all areas for what BD can do almost casually.

BD simply provides for technically better PQ and AQ as RBFilms has subtly stated in his posts.
I've said time and time again that I don't care about extras.
I just want the best available for the future.
 
[quote name='dallow']And the audio difference on NJ?[/quote]
Haven't seen any comparisons of the two, and I wouldn't expect to for a while, since not many people have both a BD-P1400 and an HD-A35, along with a 2007-model Onkyo or Denon receiver. Since that's the only way to listen to EITHER soundtrack, because no player in existence can decode them. I can say that the soundtrack (I listend to the DTS core, as 99.9999% of people will have to do for the time being) was pretty, but unremarkable.

If all you guys want is "the best", why aren't you up in arms about all the 16-bit "lossless" tracks on Blu-Ray? 84 of them, to be exact. No one on either side argues that arbitrarily throwing away 1/3 of the bit depth can do anything other than compromise the sound, but that's fine because the compromised sountrack is then losslessly encoded......

Or maybe you've all complained about that endlessly in the past, and I've just missed it.....
 
I haven't been in the HDMI audio thing for too long, only getting my first taste of it with the Sony DG1000 I had.

I'll agree that I'd rather have TrueHD tracks with a higher bit depth over the standard PCM.

My question to you geko since you're the only smart HD DVD guy here, why did Dolby and DTS Tech guys even develop their lossless formats TrueHD and DTS-HD MA if these 1.5mbps DD+ (and perhaps core DTS 1.5mpbs) are supposedly the same?
 
[quote name='dallow']I'll agree that I'd rather have TrueHD tracks with a higher bit depth over the standard PCM.

My question to you geko since you're the only smart HD DVD guy here, why did Dolby and DTS Tech guys even develop their lossless formats TrueHD and DTS-HD MA if these 1.5mbps DD+ (and perhaps core DTS 1.5mpbs) are supposedly the same?[/quote] I'm not saying they're always going to be 100% the same. And of course I would prefer that they had used a 24/48 TrueHD track rather than the 24/48 DD+ track that they did. The difference would likely be quite subtle, but it would remove the question (aka talking point) on if it could have possibly been better. What angers me is the number of disingenuous people (particularly on AVS) who likely wouldn't be railing against the soundtrack if it were in 16/48 lossless, when there is basically no question that 24-bit lossy (at sufficient bitrate, of course) is superior to 16-bit lossless. That's why DTS CDs (24/96 lossy) sound substantially better than standard CDs (16/48 lossless).

IMO, Disney is the only studio that is consistently doing things "right" with regards to their encodes. They insist on 24/48 lossless and a top-notch video encode. They were the first Blu-Ray studio to move away from MPEG-2. But I personally feel the quality of their releases has more to do with the fact that they're Disney and they actually give a shit about their content than the format they're published on. Universal, Warner, and Fox are also starting to step up to the plate with quality video encodes paired with 24/48 lossless. Transformers, to me, is the next best thing, with a high quality video encode and high quality 24/48 lossy audio. All of those things are leaps and bounds ahead of anything with a 16-bit soundtrack, however. Given that Paramount has NEVER done a 24-bit lossless track on either format, I'll take a 1.5Mbps 24-bit DD+ soundtrack as the best possible option, since the alternative was 16/48 TrueHD. FWIW, if Transformers had not been exclusive, the BR version would have gotten a full-bitrate 24/48 DTS encode, as that's what the last few Paramount BRs were.

I guess what I'm saying is 24 bit lossless>24 bit HBR lossy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>16 bit lossless>16 bit HBR lossy>>>>>>16 bit LBR lossy.
 
There are much better ways to say something without making yourself seem like such a dick...or calling somone ignorant because i have an addon.

thats all..
 
With Geko's $2000 receiver, he better know what specs mean.
My receiver was a more modest $500.

TV and receiver have been upgraded, time to upgrade the speakers.... the most expensive part of home theater....
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Casino Royale, TMNT, 300, Terminator 2 and Black Hawk Down have yet to be on a B1g1 free sale![/QUOTE]

Casino Royale has been in 1 or 2 BOGOs (or Buy 2 get 1 free from BB)
TMNT and 300 are Warner, and Warner does not participate in these BOGO sales.
Terminator has NOT been part of any BOGO sale that I am aware of, but its not a movie I would ever own.
Black Hawk Down has been in several BOGO sales, including at Best Buy today.

:cool:
 
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