these ufc fights are pretty hit or miss. this one wasnt the worst ive seen since getting into mma but nowhere near the best. i was surprised lesnar won considering he doesnt come off like a smart fighter but he did the do and shut Mir up.
and i agree with the henderson fight alot of fighters keep going until the ref stops it because there have been fights where a fighter is hit hard and appears to be out and when the other fighter turns around to gloat that guy gets up and fights back. sucks to se anyone get hurt that bad but what can you do ?
brock is only gonna be on top for so long. seems like theres only so much time fr anyone to be on top before all the injuries you occur add up and before you know it youre getting knocked out yourself. machida will probably have the longest career due to his style and skills. btw who are the other main event heaveyweights out there and who are some of the promising up and comers?
None of this would be nearly as big a deal if it wasn't the big fake pro wrestler who did it. He's already public enemy #1 to most MMA fans because of his WWE background.
Everything the UFC does is about the money. Anyone who tells you different is a liar. If it wasn't, your top fighters would fight for free.
[quote name='lokizz']btw who are the other main event heaveyweights out there and who are some of the promising up and comers?[/QUOTE]
Main event guys? Couture, Nogueira. Upand comers? Carwin, Velasquez, Dos Santos, Kongo. They're bring Cro Cop back into the mix for a couple fights. Heavyweight hasn't been their best division, but they're trying to change that situation at least. The new TUF season is all heavyweights this year.
Whooo... okay, this is gonna be a long one. Sorry, guys.
ps. n8rockerasu, nothing personal in these responses. It's just that you were the main proponent of your point of view.
[quote name='paz9x']I think brock is pissed that he gets no respect from the hardcore mma following. i think the shit talking his opponents do before their fights gets to him too. I dont like him but i think his additude is more a result of that then him being an outright prick. but thats just my opinion im probably wrong.[/QUOTE]
I think it's been made abundantly clear that Brock doesn't really care much about the opinion of any human being on the planet outside of his Minnesota compound. Additionally, he knows what his role is and is playing it to the hilt, much to his and Dana's financial success.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']I think Dana needs to just forget that plan and throw $100 million at Fedor, so someone can actually challenge Brock.[/quote]
I've heard this on a few forums and I can't help but hear early-80s wrestling fans wishing that someone would "teach that damned Ric Flair some manners!" or (for the WWF fans) "Hulk Hogan would show that Macho Man how to respect a woman!". If you are at all concerned about the promoter bringing in some outside enforcer to take down the big heel, you are a mark and are getting worked.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']...but when you're telling the people responsible for paying your paycheck (ie. fans and sponsors) to basically off, you don't deserve to be standing where you are. [/quote]
But what if those fans came to boo him? And him flipping them off gives them all the more reason to pay to boo him next time? Then he's really doing his job, isn't he?
[quote name='n8rockerasu']The UFC was not built on fighters being self-serving, misanthropic lunatics. The fighters generally respected each other because they all had the same struggles and knew the dedication it took for each of them to be where they are.[/quote]
Isn't this the same UFC that was sold to the Fertitta's for $2 million? "Pure sportz build" doesn't cut it in the world of PPV buyrates and CBS specials. You only need to look to WEC, IFL and Affliction for proof. Storyline and character have always sold.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']...but just the fact that Dana reprimanded him for it, and the media is writing about how despicable it was, should make you question your own moral character[/QUOTE]
[quote name='n8rockerasu']Look around the news. Everybody is writing about how he undermined his great performance by acting like an idiot.[/QUOTE]
I read a whole batch of news articles this morning from reputable (read: not Sherdog.com) sources and not one of them missed the point that Lesnar's actions were grandstanding of the highest nature and will result in truckloads more money for both him and UFC in the future. A point which you and whatever news sources you are referring to seem to have missed.
The only despicable action out of last night's show was Henderson's savage beating of an unconscious Bisping. If anything will set UFC back in the eyes of the general public and legislators, it is that.
[quote name='whiptcracker']That fact that Dana White said the comments were unprofessional is bullshit considering Dana White drops the F-bomb and makes disrespectful statements all the time.[/QUOTE]
Having Dana White take Brock to task about alienating sponsors was indeed the height of irony.
[quote name='Collectordragon']There are many fighters like GSP, Fedor, Anderson Silva, and Machida who do little to no trash talking.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone needs to have a big personality, and I would hate to see them try to graft personalities onto people, but if you have one (ala Mir, Jackson, Ortiz) then it only makes sense both in terms of the company's bottom line and your personal success to let it out. I love watching skilled Jiu Jitsu practitioners apply their skill, but don't you sometimes want to have some sizzle with your steak?
[quote name='cgarb84']Just seeing so many people us the term "promo" for Lesnar's talk makes me want to puke. Anything that crosses over from WWE into the UFC is terrible for the sport. If Lesnar has to put on a "heel" act for people to notice him then the sport hasn't come near as far as it needs to. Tito Ortiz acted like an asshole as well, and he built up his fights just like Lesnar did. But he was a real person afterwards, in every fight he was in. He always showed the real him, his real personality, after a fight. Lesnar was practically cutting a ing wrestling promo in the cage afterward. WTF man leave that shit behind.......
YOUR MIC SKILLS SUCKED ASS THEN AND THEY SUCK ASS NOW!
[/QUOTE]
I guess you have no idea from whence this sport originated? And, as for your spoiler, this might have been the best big money promo in years. Hardly evidence of mic skill suckage.
[quote name='cgarb84']Yeah everyone talks shit BEFORE the fight. Most of everyone you just listed is always respectful after the fights, Tito vs. Metzger being the only real exception. And hey guess what..... people flipped their shit when Ortiz acted like that too. Brock isn't getting any different treatment, he was an asshole AFTER the fight, didn't thank anyone, didn't say one nice thing about anyone or anything, was just being a stupid .[/QUOTE]
[quote name='bg88']I don't know if you saw Ortiz/Shamrock after their last fight but they burried the hatchet and were talking respectively about each other after that fight. That's usually how that works. Did you hear Mir's interview in the Octagon after the fight? He was talking about what he did wrong and what Lesnar did to take advantage of his mistakes. He was acting like an adult after the fight was over.[/quote]
The whole phoney pre-fight "Boy, I sure hate that guy" coupled with the post-fight "I've always respected so-and-so" is a far bigger sham than Brock racheting up real aspects of his personality. It's not post-fight sportsmanship, it's pre-fight build-up taken directly from pro wrestling. Yet, no one seems to have any qualms about it.
[quote name='mykevermin']But acting like he's degrading a sport with the history and characters UFC/MMA does is the same kind of overreaction that people have to charismatic athletes who change the face of sports.
Dennis Rodman did not ruin NBA basketball.
John McEnroe and Andre Agassi did not ruin tennis; nor did the Williams sisters.
Chad Ochocinco (christ i hate typing that) won't outlive or outlast the NFL.
That dude what had the "Garnier Fructis" NASCAR didn't ruin that, either.
...I'm sure you can think of dozens better examples than those.
Likewise, Brock Lesnar won't kill the UFC. [/QUOTE]
For the biggest and best example of all, look at how Muhammad Ali completely destroyed professional boxing.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']I don't know if I agree with all of that. Lesnar definitely got an extra push because of his name. But the fact is, the UFC heavyweight division was really weak at that time (and it kind of still is). A lot of the former champions careers were faltering. Tim Sylvia and Andrei Arlovski started sucking, Mir was in a serious accident, Antonio Nogueira was getting old, and Randy Couture was old and in a contract dispute.
Sure, Lesnar didn't exactly earn his shot, but there was NOBODY he really leapfrogged over. The fights in the UFC are not set up based on who's "over" with the fans as you say. Look at the other recent title fights: GSP vs Alves...completely deserved. Silva vs Leites...deserved because MW is weak as hell also. Evans vs Machida...completely deserved. UFC101: Penn vs Florian...completely deserved. Those aren't just the popular matchups. They're the right matchups.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='bg88']I don't know how much MMA you've watched but this point here could not be more incorrect. There have been tons of fighters over the years that have definitely not been "over" with the crowd and still given title fights. In MMA title fights actually DO happen because of matchups. Lesnar was given the title shot because at the time there was really no other HW to give that title shot at that time. Most fighters have to get 3 or 4 consecutive wins before given the opportunity of a title fight. If popularity or being "over" gave fighters title shots, some fighters would be given a title shot every fight.[/quote]
If this was the case, then Joe Silva's only job would be updating the rankings and keeping whiteboard markers in stock.
[quote name='whiptcracker']I'm just amazed that people have a problem with this when it doesn't even come close to what other fighters have said or done. Henderson did much worse and was awarded.[/QUOTE]
+1 and we all know why.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']I'd still rather see Fedor come to UFC, but if not, I'm pulling for Carwin already [/QUOTE]
Maaaa-aaaarrrrk!
[quote name='JJSP']None of this would be nearly as big a deal if it wasn't the big fake pro wrestler who did it. He's already public enemy #1 to most MMA fans because of his WWE background.
Everything the UFC does is about the money. Anyone who tells you different is a liar. If it wasn't, your top fighters would fight for free.[/QUOTE]
hes right. i swear during one of the ultimate fighter seasons the guy who runs ufc was discussing who would fight who with the coaches and i think he changed one or more of the fights because he thought it would make for a great draw later in the ufc. i do wonder sometimes if people do drop fights or hold back some for future fights.
do any of you think the guy running ufc would or wouldnt ask or tell a fighter to take a dive so they can go on to setp up for a bigger fight with a higher draw?
[quote name='Fanboy']But what if those fans came to boo him? And him flipping them off gives them all the more reason to pay to boo him next time? Then he's really doing his job, isn't he? [/QUOTE]
I SERIOUSLY doubt all those people would pony up that kind of money just to boo him. Lesnar brought it all on himself, not to mention that he was fighting in Mir's backyard.
[quote name='Fanboy']The only despicable action out of last night's show was Henderson's savage beating of an unconscious Bisping. If anything will set UFC back in the eyes of the general public and legislators, it is that.
The whole phoney pre-fight "Boy, I sure hate that guy" coupled with the post-fight "I've always respected so-and-so" is a far bigger sham than Brock racheting up real aspects of his personality. It's not post-fight sportsmanship, it's pre-fight build-up taken directly from pro wrestling. Yet, no one seems to have any qualms about it.[/QUOTE]
Basically your whole post looked like you were talking out your ass. You sound like a wrestling fan through and through. I decided to choose these two points you made even though pretty much every point you made was hilarious. Yes the pre-fight buildup is taken directly from wrestling. You are correct.....except for the fact that the pre-fight animosity between two fighters is usually bred from genuine dislike for each other or one fighter is trying to get into the head of the other fighter. There is no script or characters in MMA, especially not pre-fight trash talk. Quite often by the time the fight happens both fighters dislike each other and want to hurt each other.
The post fight show of respect is real just like the pre-fight jawing. Just because two fighters dislike each other before the fight doesn't mean they don't gain respect for each other during the fight. I wouldn't expect you to remember the Tito Ortiz/Ken Shamrock rivalry where they deeply disliked each other (actually you probably know Shamrock since he used to be in WWE). After they fought each other 3 times, they showed respect for each other and since then have seemed to be fine with each other. So I'm sorry but fighters showing respect for each other is no sham.
I also love how everyone that defends Lesnar keeps trying to turn everyone's attention to the end of the Henderson/Bisping fight. I don't know if you watched The Ultimate Fighter but the only trash talking Henderson did towards Bisping was calling him a douche. Bisping on the other hand was talking quite a lot of shit. There have been LOTS of fights where one fighter KOs the other fighter and keeps punching them until the ref jumps in there. Fighters are always taking shots to their face after being KOed until the ref gets in there and stops it.
Don't even get me started on your ridiculous point of "what if fans came to boo Lesnar". Apparently you did not see how high ticket prices were for this event. So please do us all a favor and stop talking out your ass.
My response to Fanboy (he typed so much, I felt like I owed him a response, haha)
[quote name='Fanboy']ps. n8rockerasu, nothing personal in these responses. It's just that you were the main proponent of your point of view. [/QUOTE]
No offense taken. I just wish the pro wrestling fans would identify themselves before giving their opinion. It makes it easier to spot the bias. As I said, I stopped watching pro wrestling when it became a man drama around 2002. My interest in it was the sport and athleticism, coupled with some entertaining personalities. When it turned to trash, I turned off.
[quote name='Fanboy']I think it's been made abundantly clear that Brock doesn't really care much about the opinion of any human being on the planet outside of his Minnesota compound. Additionally, he knows what his role is and is playing it to the hilt, much to his and Dana's financial success.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Whether or not Dana is "selling out" by going down this road remains to be seen though.
[quote name='Fanboy']I've heard this on a few forums and I can't help but hear early-80s wrestling fans wishing that someone would "teach that damned Ric Flair some manners!" or (for the WWF fans) "Hulk Hogan would show that Macho Man how to respect a woman!". If you are at all concerned about the promoter bringing in some outside enforcer to take down the big heel, you are a mark and are getting worked.[/QUOTE]
Forgive me, but you have no idea what you're talking about here. You toss around these WWE terms like "heel" and "mark" like they're some measure of sports management. Bringing Fedor into the UFC has NOTHING to do with beating the "bad guy". It's about matching up two of the best fighters in the sport today, thus making for better fights, and the growth of the sport through positive means. Who doesn't want the top competitors to face each other? For me, personally, I'd much rather see incredible, epic fights rather than big mouths and catchphrases.
[quote name='Fanboy']Isn't this the same UFC that was sold to the Fertitta's for $2 million? "Pure sportz build" doesn't cut it in the world of PPV buyrates and CBS specials. You only need to look to WEC, IFL and Affliction for proof. Storyline and character have always sold.[/QUOTE]
Again, scripted entertainment terms such as "storyline" do nothing to describe the UFC. If you want to call natural rivalries and feuds a "storyline", that's your business. But I don't see it as being different from what happens in any other sport. Was Shaq & Kobe a "storyline"? Sometimes people just don't get along. Don't you have anyone at work who you don't get along with? Is that a "storyline"?
[quote name='Fanboy']I read a whole batch of news articles this morning from reputable (read: not Sherdog.com) sources and not one of them missed the point that Lesnar's actions were grandstanding of the highest nature and will result in truckloads more money for both him and UFC in the future. A point which you and whatever news sources you are referring to seem to have missed.[/QUOTE]
Every article I read from ESPN to Yahoo Sports to MSN used words like "dominant", "overpowering", and "ruthless" when describing Lesnar's performance, but words like "despicable", "tirade", and "embarrassing" when describing his post fight interview.
Obviously, it will appeal to some people. But whether those people will actually take the time to learn about the sport, or whether they'll only care to see Lesnar "smash somebody's face in" is what concerns me. If it's the former, good for them! I love it when people discover all the intricacies of MMA. If it's the latter, ehhh...MMA is probably better off without them.
[quote name='Fanboy']The only despicable action out of last night's show was Henderson's savage beating of an unconscious Bisping. If anything will set UFC back in the eyes of the general public and legislators, it is that.[/QUOTE]
Oh come on man. That's bullshit propaganda and you know it. "Savage beating"??? He threw ONE PUNCH after Bisping hit the mat. I've seen guys say in pre-fight interviews that they're going to keep swinging until the referee drags them off.
All Henderson did was make sure the fight was over. Saying afterward "Oh, I knew he was out. I did it on purpose to shut him up" is the cool thing to say. But there have been plenty of times where guys have been KO'd momentarily, and wake up as soon as they hit the mat. He let up as soon as Yamasaki told him to stop...as he should have. It may have been unnecessary. But it's nowhere near as savage as you're making it out to be.
[quote name='Fanboy']Having Dana White take Brock to task about alienating sponsors was indeed the height of irony.[/QUOTE]
Dana has never ripped into a sponsor. He's not that dumb. He ripped into a journalist who had attacked his methods and made ridiculous accusations against him. It wasn't good PR on his part, by any means, but he was defending his livelihood. And he apologized for it. Dana ripping into Brock was to make sure he apologized. Unless we're living in a world where people can't make mistakes, this stuff is going to happen. As I've mentioned a couple times though, it's how you handle it in the future that counts.
[quote name='Fanboy']The whole phoney pre-fight "Boy, I sure hate that guy" coupled with the post-fight "I've always respected so-and-so" is a far bigger sham than Brock racheting up real aspects of his personality. It's not post-fight sportsmanship, it's pre-fight build-up taken directly from pro wrestling. Yet, no one seems to have any qualms about it.[/QUOTE]
If you think pro wrestling is the origin of trash talk, your opinion is more biased than I thought. Trying to psyche out your opponent is nothing new. And it's not that you're being fake or you're playing some stupid character. It's about creating a mental edge. Making your opponent doubt himself even a little can turn things completely in your favor. But after the fight, you see how it worked out for you, and you acknowledge the other guy you went to war with.
And clearly, Mir could see (if he couldn't all someone had to do was give him a mirror) that his strategy did not work at all and Brock completely got the better of him. It happens. Does it mean it'll happen if they fight again? Absolutely not. That's the beauty of MMA. When you've got these athletes who are so closely matched in skills, one punch could make the entire fight (see: Dan Henderson). One mistake and your night is over.
[quote name='Fanboy']Maaaa-aaaarrrrk! [/QUOTE]
Not even close. I have nothing against Lesnar and think he's a ridiculous spectacle of human athleticism. My only wish for him is that he recognize the position he's in. Because of his "charisma" or whatever you want to call it, people listen to him. I just want him to represent the sport well.
[quote name='tehweezner']While Lesnar's behavior is questionable, that dude is dangerous and freakishly strong. He would take Fedor. Welcome to the Lesnar Era (like it or not)[/QUOTE]
i miss the old lesnar though man he was a pure muscle beast back in wwe. looks like hes dropped some weight and muscle to compete in ucf which i guess is necessary so he can keep up with everyone. does anyone know how ny other ex wwe wrestlers turned mma fighters are doing?
Nothing was sweeter than Hendo knocking the f*** out of bisping. He deserves the re-match against Silva and this time he will beat him. Come on Dana give Hendo a title shot
[quote name='bg88']The post fight show of respect is real just like the pre-fight jawing. Just because two fighters dislike each other before the fight doesn't mean they don't gain respect for each other during the fight. I wouldn't expect you to remember the Tito Ortiz/Ken Shamrock rivalry where they deeply disliked each other (actually you probably know Shamrock since he used to be in WWE). After they fought each other 3 times, they showed respect for each other and since then have seemed to be fine with each other. So I'm sorry but fighters showing respect for each other is no sham. [/quote]
The respect afterwards might not be a sham, but the disrespect before certainly is. Hughes versus Serra, where the whole point was that they hated each other with every fiber of their being. They had fought each other before and had respect for skills but no personal respect at all as it was built up. Refused to touch gloves.
Hugged after the fight. Man they really seem to hate each other on a personal level.
If you really buy some of the pre-fight grudge talk each time, then you are a sucker.
I also love how everyone that defends Lesnar keeps trying to turn everyone's attention to the end of the Henderson/Bisping fight. I don't know if you watched The Ultimate Fighter but the only trash talking Henderson did towards Bisping was calling him a douche. Bisping on the other hand was talking quite a lot of shit. There have been LOTS of fights where one fighter KOs the other fighter and keeps punching them until the ref jumps in there. Fighters are always taking shots to their face after being KOed until the ref gets in there and stops it.
I'd say it was the whole, you know, fact that HENDERSON said he knew the guy was out and did it anyways to shut him up. Nice show of respect there, wait...aren't they all supposed to show respect? Not only verbal disrespect after the fight, watch that blow, he could've seriously injured Bisping.
Don't even get me started on your ridiculous point of "what if fans came to boo Lesnar". Apparently you did not see how high ticket prices were for this event. So please do us all a favor and stop talking out your ass.
Yeah, I guess it's completely ridiculous to suggest the people in Vegas paid to see a hometown boy beat the former pro-wrestler, and no matter how much Brock dominated in that match they booed him. Doesn't matter that he was controlling a BJJ guy on the ground. People paid, and the loudest they were that night was when they booed Lesnar. I think it's not hard to assume what they paid to see.
[quote name='whiptcracker']The respect afterwards might not be a sham, but the disrespect before certainly is. Hughes versus Serra, where the whole point was that they hated each other with every fiber of their being. They had fought each other before and had respect for skills but no personal respect at all as it was built up. Refused to touch gloves.
Hugged after the fight. Man they really seem to hate each other on a personal level.
If you really buy some of the pre-fight grudge talk each time, then you are a sucker.[/QUOTE]
If you didn't see the 4th season of The Ultimate Fighter, then you have no clue why Matt Serra didn't like Matt Hughes. Everything about that was real, and you could tell how much that fight meant to Serra when they interviewed him after the fight.
But can I bring some levity to the situation and ask...what are we arguing about anymore? Are you guys trying to convince the longtime MMA fans that UFC is fake? Or that WWE is just as real as UFC? I really don't understand the point. What are you guys trying to prove?
[quote name='whiptcracker']The respect afterwards might not be a sham, but the disrespect before certainly is. Hughes versus Serra, where the whole point was that they hated each other with every fiber of their being. They had fought each other before and had respect for skills but no personal respect at all as it was built up. Refused to touch gloves.
Hugged after the fight. Man they really seem to hate each other on a personal level.
If you really buy some of the pre-fight grudge talk each time, then you are a sucker.
I'd say it was the whole, you know, fact that HENDERSON said he knew the guy was out and did it anyways to shut him up. Nice show of respect there, wait...aren't they all supposed to show respect? Not only verbal disrespect after the fight, watch that blow, he could've seriously injured Bisping.
Yeah, I guess it's completely ridiculous to suggest the people in Vegas paid to see a hometown boy beat the former pro-wrestler, and no matter how much Brock dominated in that match they booed him. Doesn't matter that he was controlling a BJJ guy on the ground. People paid, and the loudest they were that night was when they booed Lesnar. I think it's not hard to assume what they paid to see.[/QUOTE]
....Wow, this post is impressive. Are you honestly using Serra/Hughes to say that the pre fight trash talk is a sham? Did you not watch the season of TUF that they were opposite coaches? During TUF Serra and Hughes really did build up a rivalry and soon into the show hated each other. You also made it sound like Hughes and Serra had already fought each other....which they hadn't. Once again you don't seem to understand how MMA works. Hughes and Serra really disliked each other, but also had respect for each other by the time their fight was over. Hence the hugging and show of respect for each other.
So please do me a favor and don't call me a sucker for buying some pre-fight grudge talk when SOME of it is genuine.
Once again it is funny you bring up the Henderson fight. Also once again did you not watch this last season of The Ultimate Fighter? Henderson didn't talk hardly any trash but Bisping was running his mouth the entire season. Bisping wasn't showing any respect towards Henderson before the fight so why was Henderson going to show him respect during the fight?
As I've said earlier, basically every PPV at least one fight ends where someone gets KOed and takes more punches until the ref steps in. Henderson threw that big punch and might have thrown more punches until the ref steps in to stop him. This kind of ending happens in fights all the time. I'd be willing to bet there have been LOTS of times when fighters knew the other fighter was KOed but kept throwing punches until the ref stepped in. The only difference here is that Henderson made it verbally known.
This thread was civil and informative before UFC 100. Now it has all kinds of new people posting who like to talk out of their ass. If these are the kinds of "new fans" Lesnar brings to the sport then color me unimpressed.
[quote name='cgarb84']This thread was civil and informative before UFC 100. Now it has all kinds of new people posting who like to talk out of their ass. If these are the kinds of "new fans" Lesnar brings to the sport then color me unimpressed.[/QUOTE]
Well I've been watching since it wasn't called MMA but NHB, so I don't think I could qualify as a new fan.
If anything knowing the history of the sport makes peoples reaction to lesnar seem so much more hypocritical.
[quote name='bg88']....Wow, this post is impressive. Are you honestly using Serra/Hughes to say that the pre fight trash talk is a sham? Did you not watch the season of TUF that they were opposite coaches? During TUF Serra and Hughes really did build up a rivalry and soon into the show hated each other. You also made it sound like Hughes and Serra had already fought each other....which they hadn't. Once again you don't seem to understand how MMA works. Hughes and Serra really disliked each other, but also had respect for each other by the time their fight was over. Hence the hugging and show of respect for each other.
So please do me a favor and don't call me a sucker for buying some pre-fight grudge talk when SOME of it is genuine. [/quote]
Mutual respect for fight is shaking hands. When you say that even after fighting each other in the past the only reason you are glad to fight again is to punch the other guy, call him an asshole and say you hate him on a personal level, combined with all the other disrespect...yeah the hugging thing sort of made the previous comments about hating each others guts seem awkward.
If you don't think that these guys play it up to get more PPV buys, I think you might not understand how it works.
Once again it is funny you bring up the Henderson fight. Also once again did you not watch this last season of The Ultimate Fighter? Henderson didn't talk hardly any trash but Bisping was running his mouth the entire season. Bisping wasn't showing any respect towards Henderson before the fight so why was Henderson going to show him respect during the fight?
Hey, you're the one saying they should be respectful after. Henderson wasn't, and wasn't respectful in a way that jeopardized the health of another fighter.
As I've said earlier, basically every PPV at least one fight ends where someone gets KOed and takes more punches until the ref steps in. Henderson threw that big punch and might have thrown more punches until the ref steps in to stop him. This kind of ending happens in fights all the time. I'd be willing to bet there have been LOTS of times when fighters knew the other fighter was KOed but kept throwing punches until the ref stepped in. The only difference here is that Henderson made it verbally known.
Yep, and it was completely disrespectful for him to admit that he knew he was unconscious and yet went for a forearm on an opponent who couldn't defend himself to "just shut him up". Yet he was awarded for that.
Considering what they're trying for approval in New York, and something like that could cost them approval, it's completely hypocritical to slam Lesnar over his comments that might cost them Bud Light when Henderson's actions might cost them Madison Square Garden.
Ok here's a fact for you, when you were using the Serra/Hughes fight as an example of trash talking pre and post fight earlier you on multiple occasions referenced their first fight when talking about their fight a few months ago. Can you please give me a link to the results of their first fight? Oh thats right, you can't because they've only fought once you stupid dipshit. Go yourself.
And for a frame of reference, here's Dave Meltzers thoughts from someone who has been reporting on the UFC from the time it first started:
--A ton of interesting reaction to last night. I'm going to give my old boxing speech with a little bit of a twist. Anyone who has ripped on every athlete who at times shows unsportsmanlike like behavior can say anything they want about Brock Lesnar and that's fine. For those who think that it is going to mean more people will tune out UFC than people he has hooked as fans who want to see him get beat, you are probably as dead wrong as the people who said the same thing about Ali. For those who think Lesnar was a disgrace to the UFC for doing WWE antics, read a real history lesson of how the sport got popular. Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie doing WWE interviews, and the funny thing is nobody was more arrogant on his interviews than Gracie, but he was small and beat big guys at first so he backed it up and became the first legend. Shamrock and Tito in 2002 saved UFC when it was one step from death. Did they save it because they were the top two fighters in the world on that night and all these sports fans wanted to pay to find out who was really No. 1?
No. They saved it because they went on "Best Damn Sports Show Period" and cut pro wrestling promos on each other and with no television at all, 150,000 people bought their PPV match, and the UFC owners realized that there was potential in this money losing outfit.
The real history that all the UFC historical retrospectives left out, was that it was the TV shows the two weeks before the Leben vs. Koscheck fight on Ultimate Fighter that was the real building blocks for the success of the sport, not the Griffin and Bonnar fight as has been reported in many places over the past week. Leben vs. Koscheck in a taped match in front of a dozen people in a warehouse like gym drew a higher rating than Griffin and Bonnar did.
In no way do I want to diminish that Griffin-Bonnar was the perfect fight on the perfect night and in the long-term helped more, because they delivered the great fight as opposed to just the great hype that delivered television ratings, but disappointed in the end. What was Matt Serra before Montreal? What was Frank Mir and Michael Bisping this past week? Play some tapes of Ali's promos for Frazier.
There are a lot of very good reasons not to like Brock Lesnar. But whatever media and Hardcore backlash there is against him, which admittedly is some of the most entertaining stuff in a long time, is because he's a former WWE wrestler, not for anything he did. Tank Abbott flipped off fans, and said he was sexually aroused when watching a replay of his match with Paul Varelans. Was Lesnar doing it anymore than Tito Ortiz and his Gay Mezger is my bitch T-shirt, or his grave digging, and take Ortiz out of the history of this sport (and some people are attempting to do that as we speak), and 2006's records never exist. Take 2006 out of the sport's history and you're at a completely different level of interest, media acceptance and CBS, Showtime, and others never get into this game in the first place. The most important fight in getting mainstream interest was a crap third fight with Ortiz and Shamrock. Buy rates mean something to company profitability, but in the media world, ratings are king, because it's a world they understand. What very slowly got the mainstream media into MMA, and as Dana White likes to remind me, took me from one place in life to another, is the media couldn't deny the ratings of the Ortiz-Shamrock match in 2006 on Spike when in 18-34 males it beat several games of that year's World Series. Was that the two best fighters in the world vying to see who was really No. 1? No, it was just a match that the two combatants and the promotion made people want to see more than any other match up to that point in history. And those viewers seeing that crap fight were so turned off by it, that a few months later, when the natural build led to Ortiz vs. Chuck Liddell, the company's bank account grew like never before.
We watched people piss in beds and piss in fruit and jack off on sushi, and guess what, more people still watched last night's PPV than any non-boxing event in history most likely. But some guy cutting a WWE-style promo, which Frank Mir and Michael Bisping both did better than he did on television over the past week, is going to turn off more people than he turns on. Hell, if guys in WWE were cutting WWE style promos as good as Mir, Bisping and Lesnar, WWE would be the one whose business would be turning around. When you actually think about the argument, it's almost absurd.
Could it hurt sanctioning in New York and Massachusetts? It's a weird world we live in and anything is possible. In a logical world, that punch Dan Henderson threw was 100 times worse, but you never know how things can mushroom. But I'm guessing it will have no effect. But you never know.
If you are consistent in your beliefs, that's cool. If you're a reactionary fool on this one, calm down and look at the world, and sports in general. When boxing people say what Lesnar did was worse than anything Mike Tyson did, I'm baffled. Did he bite a man's ear off? Did he threaten to eat any children? He cut the best and most talked about promo of his life and what will be the single most talked about promo of the year. And that's bad? Why, because he came from WWE? Why don't they blame the University of Minnesota while we're at it. Is anyone aware of how Lesnar acted as the U of M wrestling matches during his junior and senior year when they had dual meets against the other powers and fans booed him out of the small gyms? Dana White can say Lesnar was acting, and he has to, but he was just being himself, ratcheted up a few notches, because he is in the sports business, which is why he trained his ass off. But he's in the entertainment business, which is why 1 million or more people plucked down $45 last night.
Why is he now the biggest PPV draw in the world since Oscar De La Hoya is now retired? And by the way, when Oscar De La Hoya set his record two years ago, answer this question: Was the reason he set the record because he had an adversary who was or wasn't playing a villain role on purpose to drum up interest in his match?
Because Lesnar became a celebrity from WWE, and because of that, a lot of people like paying to see him fight, either to beat people up, or to get beat up. Who drew more new fans to the sport this past year, St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, Fedor or Lesnar?
Some great athletes really aren't nice guys. But that doesn't diminish them as athletes, nor hurt their sport one iota. In the plethora of stories, how many people mentioned how many new fans Lesnar has made for UFC with his fight with Mir and fight with Couture getting hundreds of thousands of first-time buyers? One of the key reasons UFC 100 is going to set records and has already started setting them even before the first PPV returns have come in, is because Brock Lesnar came from WWE and he can really fight. Guess what? The fact that some people look their noses up or have nervous breakdowns about the latter part of the statement is exactly the emotional reaction that makes him so valuable to the sport in the first place. No, it's not the WWE. You have to really be able to fight.
What Lesnar did by ripping on Bud Lite, particularly come so soon after the Dana White/Loretta Hunt deal, was absolutely bad for the company. That's the company'ss leading sponsor, and if I was Dana White, I'd be furious over that one. That was stupid, but I doubt Lesnar was aware of the White/Hunt thing and how everything went down from that. He was just trying to be funny, and actually, if it wasn't the lead sponsor and the timing wasn't absolutely horrible, it would have been funny. Hell, that was the one thing he said that almost the entire crowd cheered and laughed at live. But that line also had zero impact on fans paying money to see him beaten the next time he fights.
But for every MMA fan who criticizes Lesnar's behavior as bad for the sport, it was not even within an earshot of the two worst things of this past week. Just in the last few days, what did Quinton Jackson do a reporter? And then the professional fighter as opposed to a blowhard pro wrestler nearly got into a fight with another fighter at the show last night? Has Lesnar ever got in a situation while at ringside at a UFC show that he ever nearly came to blows with someone? And it's not like Jackson had a spotless track record over the last year. Or what if Lesnar did what Dan Henderson did, which was something a whole lot more significant?
But it got nowhere near the reaction. It's all about emotion and frame of reference. GSP is a babyface that people wanted to see win, and they were happy to see him do the right game plan to achieve his victory. Dan Henderson was there to shut up a loudmouth Brit who was obviously playing a role. And he shut him up, and then shut him up once time extra for bad measure. Lesnar was a heel people wanted to see lose, and were furious to see him succeeding with a game plan that was working. All of those elements were part of the emotions of the night. The goal, in the end, is to make people care.
The history of what has drawn the biggest PPV numbers, what made the sport and saved the sport is a lesson very much worth examining for anyone arguing about what is good or bad for the future of the sport. That duality of the reaction of the crowd live, and a large percentage of those who complained about Lesnar's tactics (but not all), says something pretty significant about MMA and its fan base.
That's not even a bad thing. But it's simply accepting the truth of what all of this is, as opposed to people who live in the world of pretend. And then somehow complain about pro wrestling.
[quote name='cgarb84']Ok here's a fact for you, when you were using the Serra/Hughes fight as an example of trash talking pre and post fight earlier you on multiple occasions referenced their first fight when talking about their fight a few months ago. Can you please give me a link to the results of their first fight? Oh thats right, you can't because they've only fought once you stupid dipshit. Go yourself.[/QUOTE]
I referenced it once, and I misspoke. Sort of like you've been doing for a couple of pages. The other times I was talking about the trash talking and post fight of their first fight...you know the one that just happened recently.
Your first reply to my talk about Hughes/Serra cracks me up. Why is it so hard for you to understand that they hated each other before the fight, but settled their differences once the fight is over. Apparently you just fail to understand this so I am done trying to convince you to open your mind. Judging by all of your previous comments I'm pretty confident that I understand MMA more than you do. You have shown that Watching MMA for a longtime =/= knowlege. Yes I realize that there are certain examples of fighters that talk trash to promote their fight. However you can't seem to understand that Hughes/Serra is not one of those examples.
You are very correct though. Dan Henderson has set MMA back at least 5 years.....that is why ALL of the talk about UFC 100 has been about Brock's behavior and 0% of the post PPV talk has been about Henderson's "savage" behavior. Henderson or Lesnar was definitely not taking MMA in the right direction Saturday night in regards to their actions, if you think that person was Henderson then I honestly don't know what to say.
Btw please give me a summary of the 1st Hughes/Serra fight you made reference to earlier, I must have missed that fight.
You would think someone that's been "watching MMA for a longtime" would translate into a little knowledge.
[quote name='bg88']Your first reply to my talk about Hughes/Serra cracks me up. Why is it so hard for you to understand that they hated each other before the fight, but settled their differences once the fight is over. Apparently you just fail to understand this so I am done trying to convince you to open your mind. Judging by all of your previous comments I'm pretty confident that I understand MMA more than you do. You have shown that Watching MMA for a longtime =/= knowlege. Yes I realize that there are certain examples of fighters that talk trash to promote their fight. However you can't seem to understand that Hughes/Serra is not one of those examples.
You are very correct though. Dan Henderson has set MMA back at least 5 years.....that is why ALL of the talk about UFC 100 has been about Brock's behavior and 0% of the post PPV talk has been about Henderson's "savage" behavior. Henderson or Lesnar was definitely not taking MMA in the right direction Saturday night in regards to their actions, if you think that person was Henderson then I honestly don't know what to say.
Btw please give me a summary of the 1st Hughes/Serra fight you made reference to earlier, I must have missed that fight.
You would think someone that's been "watching MMA for a longtime" would translate into a little knowledge.[/QUOTE]
As I said, I misspoke. Each had recognized and respected the other fighters ability before their recent fight.
Again, if you think two years of hate suddenly disappeared after fighting each other, then wow.
Again, other professional writers on the sport all agree that what Henderson did was bad, and yet ignored. Which is the whole point, if you think what Henderson did was ok, but what Lesnar did was not, then you're watching it through rose colored glasses.
[quote name='cgarb84']This thread was civil and informative before UFC 100. Now it has all kinds of new people posting who like to talk out of their ass. If these are the kinds of "new fans" Lesnar brings to the sport then color me unimpressed.[/QUOTE]
This is amusing and ironic considering the amount of immature comments that are made by the people who are accusing Brock Lesnar as being disrespectful.
I now know why it's good to stay on the video game side of CAG. Some of the comments here make the Sherdog forums look enlightened. (with exception to Nate who backed his points with valid arguments and didn't result to insults).
The Lesnar thing has been done to death I just want to mention Hendo.
Now, I completely think going in the for the kill after someone is KO'd is totally wrong - but I do wonder if Hendo was really doing that and not just trying to finish the fight.
I know he said he was in the interview with Rogan - but I think he was just trying to sound like a big man.
These guys are trained to keep going 100% until the ref steps in. Obviously sometimes there is no need after a CroCop head kick and the guy is obviously out - but sometimes with the juices flowing and stuff I don't think the guys know it.
[quote name='whiptcracker']This is amusing and ironic considering the amount of immature comments that are made by the people who are accusing Brock Lesnar as being disrespectful.
I now know why it's good to stay on the video game side of CAG. Some of the comments here make the Sherdog forums look enlightened. (with exception to Nate who backed his points with valid arguments and didn't result to insults).
I'm out of this OTT. It's a waste of time.[/QUOTE]
Well, I've been enlightened since the day I was born, haha :lol:
Seriously, though, as I said earlier...trying to bring some levity. What are we arguing about anymore, guys? It's gone so far past beating a dead horse that the horse has decomposed and we're standing over nothing with puzzled looks on our faces. In the end, there will be people who like Lesnar for numerous reasons, and people who dislike him for numerous reasons. Both sides have compelling arguments, and neither side is likely to convince the other of anything.
One thing I hope we all could agree on though is that Lesnar has an amazing opportunity to become one of the greatest champions in MMA history. Sure, he and the fans have gotten off to a rocky start, and many people weren't willing to give him a chance, but he also hasn't done much to help it (some might say it's a self fulfilling prophecy).
I guarantee you that if he'd shut up for two seconds and just let his fighting do the talking, the fans would eventually embrace him and he could become a great ambassador for MMA. Whether he has any interest in doing that or not is on him though. But as a fan of the sport, it's something I'd definitely appreciate. As fun as it may be to hate the "villain", I'd much rather have a champion we can all be proud of.
I don't why there's alot of controversy about Henderson. He did the exact same elbow drop when he knocked out Wanderlei Silva at Pride 33. Gave Renzo Gracie another punch to the face after he was out in Pride 13. That's the way he fights, there's no malice involved, just pure adrenaline.
Hell, Rampage giving unnecessary blows to Wanderlei's face was much worse than that fight.
LOL mir's talking shit saying he was within half of inch of catching him. i guess you gotta sleep better at night telling yourself something. LESNAR'S THE MAN!
[quote name='whiptcracker']As I said, I misspoke. Each had recognized and respected the other fighters ability before their recent fight.
Again, if you think two years of hate suddenly disappeared after fighting each other, then wow.
Again, other professional writers on the sport all agree that what Henderson did was bad, and yet ignored. Which is the whole point, if you think what Henderson did was ok, but what Lesnar did was not, then you're watching it through rose colored glasses.[/QUOTE]
I just have a couple things to reply to then I am done arguing with you about this stuff. One more time, yes I do believe it is possible for 2 fighters to hate each other AND gain a tremendous amount of respect for each other after a tough fight with each other. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
People are seriously blowing this Henderson thing way out of proportion and it makes me laugh. I have NEVER once praised what Henderson did. What I did say and have been saying from the beginning is fighters fight til the ref stops them. This kind of thing after a KO happens ALL THE TIME.
I personally don't care at all what all the "professional" MMA writers say about the Henderson fight. I put about as much stock in these writers as I do the "professional" judges that consistently wow me with their awful decisions (Akiyama over Belcher).
I know throughout this topic I have supported my opinions with very valid arguments. Some of the comments in here do indeed make the Sherdog forums seem extremely intelligent...not pointing any fingers.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']My response to Fanboy (he typed so much, I felt like I owed him a response, haha)[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your long and considered response. Although we disagree, it's nice to see there can still be civil discourse.
At any rate, whiptcracker expressed any points I felt needed making both eloquently and concisely:
[quote name='whiptcracker']If you don't think that these guys play it up to get more PPV buys, I think you might not understand how it works.[/quote]
[quote name='whiptcracker']Considering what they're trying for approval in New York, and something like that could cost them approval, it's completely hypocritical to slam Lesnar over his comments that might cost them Bud Light when Henderson's actions might cost them Madison Square Garden.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='whiptcracker']If anything knowing the history of the sport makes peoples reaction to lesnar seem so much more hypocritical.[/QUOTE]
I'll leave the discussion to those knowledgeable fans who know so much about the sport that they can't see why Lesnar is the sport's biggest PPV draw or how he got to be that way.
Lesnar is the biggest draw the UFC has because of his WWE days, not anything else. His antics in the ring help only a small amount. Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture have been 2 of the biggest draws in the history of the UFC and it certainly wasn't because of their trash talking and promos. It is because they were both likeable and very entertaining fighters.
Seriously? With the Hendo thing. These guys are programed to go until the bell stops or the ref stops it. Do you think in anyway possible that Hendo processed in the 2 seconds between the knockout bunch and the ground punch that it was over? He didn't, because the ref didnt stop it or the bell didn't win, this happens in every single fight that ends with a knockout. Its muscle memory and adrenaline, you are already throwing the next move.
Oh and I think Lesnar is a scumbag, I hope Carwin rips his head off, but he is good for the sport in the regard that he is a good bridge from WWE fans to make the transition over, even though they arn't really the best fans one can ask for. One can just hope that after watching it and getting into other fighters besides Brock that some of the humility of the sport will rub off.
Bad news for all you brock haters, No one in the UFC has a chance. The only fight I see actually being a fight is Brock Vs Fedor. Those who are pulling for Carwin are going to be highly disappointed.
All ending in the first round and really all no names(with the exception of Gonzaga...who can be a wash sometimes). He has yet to be tested where as Brock has proven himself. I would like to see this fight but i dont see him being able to beat Brock.
[quote name='cgarb84']Lesnar is the biggest draw the UFC has because of his WWE days, not anything else. His antics in the ring help only a small amount. Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture have been 2 of the biggest draws in the history of the UFC and it certainly wasn't because of their trash talking and promos. It is because they were both likeable and very entertaining fighters.[/QUOTE]
The biggest draw in UFC history, Tito Ortiz, says hi. Tito was, imo, worse than Brock, and yet he still is the biggest draw in UFC history. Brock being hated will only increase buys as people will pay to see him lose. And I think he will gain more fans because people flock to conterversial figures.
[quote name='Pavel6969']The biggest draw in UFC history, Tito Ortiz, says hi. Tito was, imo, worse than Brock, and yet he still is the biggest draw in UFC history. Brock being hated will only increase buys as people will pay to see him lose. And I think he will gain more fans because people flock to conterversial figures.[/QUOTE]
That is pretty much why Dana let him into the UFC ... he is a pay-per-view selling machine, as seen during the post-fight interview.
[quote name='Bmac1775']Bad news for all you brock haters, No one in the UFC has a chance. The only fight I see actually being a fight is Brock Vs Fedor. Those who are pulling for Carwin are going to be highly disappointed. [/QUOTE]
Since you seem to have a time machine, can you tell me who wins the World Series this year too? You can't just say NOBODY can beat Brock. He's looked very dominant in his last couple of fights, but we've never seen him take a shot either. If you get somebody who's strong and can neutralize his wrestling (ie. Carwin), you might be surprised.
What if Carwin gets Brock on his back? What happens then? I think at this point, you could say Lesnar's OFFENSE is dominant, but his defense is more untested than Carwin's is. In the Gonzaga fight alone, we saw Carwin get off his back and knock him out.
[quote name='Bmac1775']All ending in the first round and really all no names(with the exception of Gonzaga...who can be a wash sometimes). He has yet to be tested where as Brock has proven himself. I would like to see this fight but i dont see him being able to beat Brock.[/QUOTE]
All this proves is exactly how dominant Carwin has been. I'll admit, a lot of the names on that list are nobodies, but you can't argue with the results. 11 wins is still impressive, and plenty of guys have gotten title shots without rolling off 11 straight wins. I'm not saying Carwin will definitely beat Lesnar. But to say he doesn't have a chance just shows what a man crush you have on Brock.
Seeing as Carwin weighs about the same, has bigger fists, and has a wrestling background as well, it's pretty lame to say Carwin wouldn't have a chance. Brock wouldn't be able to smother him like he did with Mir.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']All this proves is exactly how dominant Carwin has been. I'll admit, a lot of the names on that list are nobodies, but you can't argue with the results. 11 wins is still impressive, and plenty of guys have gotten title shots without rolling off 11 straight wins. [/QUOTE]
[quote name='Pavel6969']The biggest draw in UFC history, Tito Ortiz, says hi. Tito was, imo, worse than Brock, and yet he still is the biggest draw in UFC history. Brock being hated will only increase buys as people will pay to see him lose. And I think he will gain more fans because people flock to conterversial figures.[/QUOTE]
Tito is one exception besides Brock. There are many others who do it the other way, classy and respectful. Examples being Couture, Liddell, Anderson Silva, Wanderlei Silva, Andrei Arlovski, Matt Hughes, GSP, even Rampage fits the bill to a certain extent. You don't have to be a dick to sell PPV's.
[quote name='havoksend']Seriously? With the Hendo thing. These guys are programed to go until the bell stops or the ref stops it. Do you think in anyway possible that Hendo processed in the 2 seconds between the knockout bunch and the ground punch that it was over? He didn't[/quote]
Except he sort of said that he did.
For the poster who mentioned that he won this way in Pride as well, that was the past. Currently UFC is trying to convince the New York state athletic commission that they're not a blood sport in order to hold shows in Madison Square Garden. Henderson's actions and speech after saying it was intentional could be enough to keep that from happening. Especially if Bisping had been injured from that blow.
Again, it's not the action, it's the admission after the fight that he hit an unconcious opponent with a brutal elbow to just shut him up. Bisping didn't talk any less shit than Mir did leading up to that fight, but Henderson's actions and words after the fight are considered a-ok.
Hell a lot of Pride's rules like knees on a downed opponent aren't accepted by nearly every athletic commission in North America, so I'm not sure what the point of even bringing that up was.
Oh and I think Lesnar is a scumbag, I hope Carwin rips his head off.
I don't think the same about Lesnar, but I'd like to see that because it'd make Carwin a star and the Heavyweight division needs more of those. Otherwise I'd like to see Couture get his win back so he can face Fedor. I think it sort of sucks that the UFC is trying harder for Lesnar to fight Fedor than they did for Couture. I think it would be a better technical fight between two experienced guys, rather than Fedor coming in and destroying a guy who has had less than a third of the fights that Fedor has had.
[quote name='cgarb84']Tito is one exception besides Brock. There are many others who do it the other way, classy and respectful. Examples being Couture, Liddell, Anderson Silva, Wanderlei Silva, Andrei Arlovski, Matt Hughes, GSP, even Rampage fits the bill to a certain extent. You don't have to be a dick to sell PPV's.[/QUOTE]
Not trying to start up another arguement that leads to insults, but do you really consider Anderson Silva's actions in the ring against Alves to be respectful?
Yeah, GSP, Couture, and Liddell are fan favorites who sell PPV's and are respectful. They're my favorite fighters. But I think it's even better when someone like GSP takes on someone like BJ Penn who was being a dick before their fight, and certainly after their fight.
Watching Couture and Machida beat Ortiz was great because it's always fun to watch a dick like Ortiz lose because of the shit he talks.
Not every fighter is going to be respectful. Some are assholes in real life. I'd rather have them act like assholes and cheer on the next guy to fight them then put on a pretense of respect after the fight is over.
I still think Hughes took a cheap shot at GSP by saying he felt 'greasy' during BJ Penn's whining.
For all of Rampage's antics he seems at least respectful of his opponents at least.
actually the NSAC said he did infact grease, the guys in his corner said they saw them greasing him up. i saw footage of BJ at the trial in front of the Commission
[quote name='dkreegz515']actually the NSAC said he did infact grease, the guys in his corner said they saw them greasing him up. i saw footage of BJ at the trial in front of the Commission[/QUOTE]
The NSAC also had guys wipe him off.
Considering the skill level and respect GSP has shown for other fighters, it sucks to see someone like Penn try to destroy his reputation over something like his trainer having a drop of vaseline on his hands.
[quote name='whiptcracker']Not trying to start up another arguement that leads to insults, but do you really consider Anderson Silva's actions in the ring against Alves to be respectful?
[/QUOTE]
What fight are you talking about? Alves and Silva are different weights and have never fought.
off, you don't deserve to be standing where you are. [/quote]
