MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) Thread: UFC/Strikeforce

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Blah! Poor Frankie, I felt he did enough to win the fight. It was extremely close and even though Henderson had higher strike stats, I think Edgar was just doing a bit more overall. The knockdowns, subs, landing clean on the break. Joe Rogan brought up a good point though I guess in that when ever Henderson landed shots, Edgar's whole body wobbled but when Edgar did it looked like he barely did much. Clearly cause of the size difference but damn it oh well.
 
[quote name='shotgunshine']Yup. I agree 100%...when I heard 48-47 twice I knew they were going to give it to Henderson. That sucks for Frankie. Bad judging strikes again.[/QUOTE]

Seriously, for those of you who thought Henderson won, explain to me what he did to win the fight. What I see as Henderon's biggest strength is that he lands great combinations...thus accounting for his high striking totals. But he never had Frankie in danger a single time in that fight. How do knockdowns and submission attempts in addition to everything else he was doing NOT win Frankie those rounds?

If you're going to argue, "To be the man, you've gotta beat the man"...then the same shit should have applied in their last fight". I agree with shotgunshine and Magiblaze...this was basically the exact opposite of their last fight (Frankie was punching off the break, was returning fire when he caught Henderson's kicks, and was able to avoid serious damage)...and yet, Edgar loses both of them. At this point, I have to believe he's being judged differently for being the smaller fighter.
 
I also wouldn't be surprised at all if Dana thinks Frankie got screwed here. What he should do is offer him an immediate title shot at 145 (though I feel lihe this was brought up last time). Can't wait to hear what is said at the press conference. You know they'll be asking the "145 question".

Also, to add a bit of perspective, here's how the guys at Sherdog scored the fight.

Jordan Breen scores the round 10-9 Edgar (49-46 Edgar)
TJ De Santis scores the round 10-10 (48-48 Draw)
Chris Nelson scores the round 10-9 Edgar (49-46 Edgar)
Click to expand...

For as much as people claimed the first fight "wasn't even close", this one shouldn't have been close either. Garbage.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu'] Once again, the striking statistics somehow show Henderson coming out ahead, yet he didn't really do anything significant after the brutal leg kicks in the 1st round. Meanwhile, Frankie gets 2 knockdowns, 2-3 submission attempts, some nice leg kicks of his own, and gets no respect.

I don't think anybody could argue that Frankie didn't do better in this fight than he did in the first one...and that one was close. It's bullshit that they can take his belt away in a close fight...but can't give it back to him the same way. If I was Frankie, I'd say fuck 155, and drop to 145. Not because he can't compete, but because what he does is just perceived differently than what the "stronger" guy does. I actually like Henderson too...but winning like this is making him look bad.[/QUOTE]Those stats have human error to em.Not saying Bendo didn't outstrike him, he may have,but its not like they have some computer with hit detection making sure every hit actually happened, and its silly on how they judge "significant strikes".One thing that should be looked into would be the UFC showing those stats on the screen inside the building where the judges can glance at and might be tempted to go with one person from seeing the stats on the screen.

I'm thinking Dana will push for a move to 145 for Edgar.Frankie might even go with it this time,even if he was robbed after two title fights losing the first and even if he was robbed the 2nd its hard to ask for another title shot with the backlog the lightweight division has and after repeated LW title rematches.

[quote name='shotgunshine']Yup. I agree 100%...when I heard 48-47 twice I knew they were going to give it to Henderson. That sucks for Frankie. Bad judging strikes again.[/QUOTE]
I thought so too_Once I heard the second 48-47 seems like one of the judges might've just looked over at Cecil People's scorecard after falling asleep :lol:.
 
So close to an over 300-percent ROI night. I may have made a huge profit, but I still feel like the victim of a robbery. Edgar won, in my opinion. And those stat graphics were VERY deceiving. Good example of hometown cooking.

yHVf6.png

^Half of tonight
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']I also wouldn't be surprised at all if Dana thinks Frankie got screwed here. What he should do is offer him an immediate title shot at 145 (though I feel lihe this was brought up last time). Can't wait to hear what is said at the press conference. You know they'll be asking the "145 question".

Also, to add a bit of perspective, here's how the guys at Sherdog scored the fight.



For as much as people claimed the first fight "wasn't even close", this one shouldn't have been close either. Garbage.[/QUOTE]

Just looked over a couple of sites real quick to see how the guys doing pbp there scored it...MMAWeekly had it 4-1 Edgar, and Brent Brookhouse of Bloody Elbow had it 4-1 as well. I struggle to see how you can give Henderson two rounds much less three.

Im also calling bullshit on those striking stats. Even if there accurate or semi accurate it just goes to show you cant always rely on that to tell the story of a fight.
 
[quote name='Magiblaze']Very nice Chase! :applause:Any ideas yet and what you'll spend your newfound riches on or just reinvest back into betting on the next event?

Press conference about to start for those that might wanna watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...fo4&newstate=127020896a078db9ccc0bea7b58112f5[/QUOTE]


Thank you, sir.

Most everything goes back into bets. Fortunately, I have made quite the acquisition due to the Olympics. ;) Losing on Edgar still hurts, though, regardless of being around 150-percent ROI for UFC 150.

And really, they need to stop displaying those stats during the event. Completely deceptive garbage. Edgar absolutely won that fight.
 
I guess I'll throw my thoughts in here real quick. I will preface it by saying I didn't think there needed to be an immediate rematch. I didn't see their first fight as being THAT close, and definitely thought Henderson won the fight.

In regards to tonight, I thought this fight was very close. I thought rounds 1 and 2 were pretty definitive. 3,4, and 5 were really close to me. I had the fight as even after 4 rounds. Even though I thought round 5 was close, I gave the round to Edgar. I had it scored 48-47 for Frankie. I think the judges got it right the first fight, but dropped the ball in this one.

This fight was a perfect example of why I hate this new crap of shoving stats down our throats. I usually just try to ignore all of the stats, because a lot of times I find they don't tell the story of the fight. If you looked at the striking stats for this fight, you would think Henderson won pretty easily.
 
Man, I can't even listen to Henderson in this press conference. You can just tell he knows he stole one. "Yeah, uh...I agree with Mr. White. You can't leave it in the hands of the judges." Yeah...that applies to you too, numbnuts. "IF I had lost tonight, I'd have been ok. I'd still have french toast in the morning." Pretty easy to say that after the fact. "No, I thought I did enough to win. I was just asking Dana if he thought I won the fight because...because..." Good God, man. Considering almost everybody all over the internet has the fight going the other way...and most by a pretty large margin, how can this many people be wrong?

It's also funny that somebody brought up Henderson being disappointed in his last performance against Edgar, and asked him how he felt about this performance by comparison. He really didn't have much of an answer. Well...he sure as hell didn't "win" as convincingly as last time, so wouldn't that make him disappointed by default? lol. Awkward...
 
FWIW, Benson is my favorite fighter in the UFC, I had it Henderson 48-47, giving him the 1st, 3rd, and 5th (I think). However, my gut told me I was being a homer and I was expecting to hear "NEW CHAMPION" out of Bruce Buffer's mouth. When he announced that Henderson won I jumped out of my chair and screamed louder than I probably should have.

In defense of Benson, he did have a submission attempt at the end of the 1st that some here seem to be forgetting about. I don't pretend to know how the strike counts work, but why would they bother to use them if they weren't pretty accurate? (Although I agree that showing them is absolutely unfair if the judges have access to see them.)

Frankie probably landed the biggest shot, and his "control" time was a lot better, though I don't feel like he did a whole lot with it. Still, he very easily could have one and I consider myself lucky that Benson got out of there with the belt.

Ben needs to do A LOT more in his next fight, this is the worst I've seen him in a while. He looked tired by the 3rd and, to me, he looked smaller than his last fight. I'll always be a huge fan of his, but he needs to do WAY WAY WAY more if he wants to build a following in the UFC.

Also, I feel sorry for Frankie, but I'm really glad he didn't get the belt back either. He's not exactly Mr. Exciting either.

EDIT: In surfing the net, virtually nobody had Benson winning the fight. Wow, oh well. :)
 
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To be fair, I did forget about the guillotine attempt at the end of the 1st round. HOWEVER, that was a round that Henderson clearly won anyway...so it's not like it was going to sway anything. I can't remember if Frankie's first guillotine attempt came in the 2nd round, but I know he had another one in the 3rd/4th round...as well as a knockdown.

My thing is, with fighters this evenly matched (though you'd never know it from the scorecards from their two fights), you have to view the fight as a chess match, because neither fighter is going to make a mistake big enough to get brutally KO'd (Melvin Guillard says "hello"). I was incredibly impressed with how Henderson came out in the first round, timing those leg kicks to exactly when Frankie was shifting his weight...which is what was taking him off his feet. That showed that mentally, Henderson was a step ahead.

But after the 2nd round, I feel like Frankie had almost completely neutralized those kicks...even to the point where he was catching them and returning kicks of his own. How can you not take that into account in your scoring of the round? If the judges are going to use completely subjective criteria like "damage" or "impact of strike", then shouldn't adjusting to an attack, preventing it, and launching a counter attack be just as impressive?

Otherwise, strikes are strikes and points are points, and it shouldn't matter if Henderson's kicks make Frankie's legs "wobble" while Frankie's kicks don't have the same effect. Nor should it matter how many cuts are on a fighter's face or if his nose is bleeding. If we're not going to score the mental aspect of the sport, then it's not really fair to judge the strength/size difference aspect either. I really feel at the end of that fight, Edgar had mentally out-gamed Henderson. Joe Rogan even commented that Henderson was starting to look "desperate". We all couldn't have just been imagining things.
 
I'd really love to watch the fight again. Now that I know the results, I could hopefully watch it in a more objective manner.

I think it's fair to say the fight was 1-1 after 2 rounds. There are people online that gave Henderson the 3rd and others that gave him the 5th, but I haven't actually found one that gave Henderson both the 3rd and 5th. Benson was very very lucky that 2 of the judges actually did.

I wish I knew more about MMA, scoring, judging, etc so I could make a more rational arguement, but I'm probably one of the least qualified on this board to do that. All I know is that I think Benson won, I can totally understand how the judges scored it 48-47, and if it had gone the other way I would have understood that as well. Luck plays a big part in sports, and Benson got lucky here that the judges saw the fight the way they did. I hope he comes out with a lot more versus Diaz.

As for your last statement, I was at a bar and could barely here Joe and Mike (which sucks, I really need to find a place that will blast the speakers for the fights) but I definitely didn't think that Ben's shots had any more power than Frankie's. Frankie wobbled Ben a few times as well.
 
I'm going to watch the fight again tomorrow but I doubt anything changes. I dont let bias get in the way on who I feel won, and while I have nothing against Edgar, I wanted Ben to win as ima fan...but not like that. Him and Nate Diaz will be a hell of a fight though.


I hope they make Donald Cerrone-Anthony Pettis next. That has fireworks written all over it.

Also, Chase...what happened on your picks lol...you went something like 3-7.
 
If anyone cares (and didn't already know), according to this article the judges scores were as follows, by round:

Judge 1: Henderson, Edgar, Edgar, Edgar, Edgar
Judge 2: Henderson, Edgar, Henderson, Henderson, Edgar
Judge 3: Henderson, Edgar, Henderson, Henderson, Edgar
 
What's funny about that is that it even goes against the politically correct nonsense that Dana was spouting of "Well, I had it even going into the 5th round." Nope. All 3 judges gave the 5th round to Edgar...and he still lost...
 
I had it 49-46 Edgar as well, but it's not too hard to rationalize the decision. Rounds 2 and 5 were the only rounds Edgar clearly won, 3 and 4 were much closer. I still thought Edgar did enough to take both, but it's not impossible to see it the other way.
 
It seems that rounds 3,4, and 5 were an absolute crapshoot. Everyone has a different opinion.

I will say that it wasn't a great fight. Ben wasn't nearly as aggressive as he was in the first fight.

I'm not saying Ben stole the fight, but he got away with one here.
 
[quote name='shotgunshine']Also, Chase...what happened on your picks lol...you went something like 3-7.[/QUOTE]


The more I bet, the less I take serious my picks. The Pick Em is where I can just dick around for fun. Maybe I'll just sync my picks with my bets for the next card. Maybe I'll pick outrageous choices. We shall see. ;)
 
[quote name='Ugamer_X']I had it 49-46 Edgar as well, but it's not too hard to rationalize the decision. Rounds 2 and 5 were the only rounds Edgar clearly won, 3 and 4 were much closer. I still thought Edgar did enough to take both, but it's not impossible to see it the other way.[/QUOTE]

It's beating a dead horse at this point, but hell...there's nothing else to talk about, lol. Here's a play-by-play from round 4 (which 2/3 judges awarded to Henderson). How could anybody possibly think Henderson won this round? To me, round 3 was really the only one that honestly could have gone either way.

Round 4
Edgar rushes to clinch but gets stood up in the middle of the cage. Henderson lands a hook and backs ut of the way of a windmilling Edgar punch. A hard low kick lands for Edgar; Henderson is sure to check the next one. Edgar lands an outside leg kick, catches the leg of Henderson and sweeps him to the ground again. Henderson posts, whips his right leg up and tags Edgar’s head from the ground, so Edgar goes down to the mat. Edgar has a guillotine again as he shoves Henderson’s back into the fence, with Henderson on one knee. Henderson pops out of the choke and they’re back on their feet with half a round left. Edgar rips a right hand to Henderson’s body but takes a double jab in return. Ref Dean calls time for Edgar to replace his lost mouthguard. Edgar connects with a right over the top, an outside leg kick, another right. Henderson comes forward with 30 seconds left and throws his hands out to egg Edgar on. Edgar obliges with a right hand, then catches a kick and kicks back.
Click to expand...

All Henderson had was the upkick which really didn't land hard and some taunting that got him smacked in the mouth. Meanwhile, Frankie had a takedown, a submission attempt, and was catching multiple kicks and returning kicks of his own. The mere suggestion that he could have lost this round is ludicrous.
 
I don't disagree. Like I said earlier I really need to rewatch the fight, but I gave Edgar round 4 as well. Not sure how 2 judges gave it to Benson.

I gave Benson round 5, but none of the judges did.
 
I didnt read all the posts here so i dont know if it was mentioned regarding the stirkign stats. there was a conversation on one of the sherdog radio shows in the last week or two about how those stats are displayed on the broadcast during the fight and as far as anyone knows that is the feed being shown on the judges monitors as well. I have an issue with that, judges shouldnt be given any outside information, especially when those stats are best guess when theyre put on the screen. Id like to hear definitively on whether the judges are seeing those stats onscreen prior to submitting their scores.

I didnt watch the card last night, but after reading the blow-by-blows from various sources it seemed like a lock victory for edgar, I dont recall seeing anybody giving benson the fight.
 
[quote name='Chase']The more I bet, the less I take serious my picks. The Pick Em is where I can just dick around for fun. Maybe I'll just sync my picks with my bets for the next card. Maybe I'll pick outrageous choices. We shall see. ;)[/QUOTE]

meh, you bet odds, the pickem is totally different.
 
[quote name='paz9x']meh, you bet odds, the pickem is totally different.[/QUOTE]


The basis is the same. :) For example, due to my research, I had Perez over Stone by some form of stoppage. I bet Perez inside the distance, to win, and that the fight would not go three rounds. My pick was Perez by R1 TKO. Another example would be Okami-Roberts. I put money on Okami inside the distance and that the fight would not go the distance. If I had chose my picks the same as my bets, I would have been 8 for 10 on picks. My incorrect selections would have been Herman and Edgar. Perhaps I will sync things up for this week's Strikeforce card. ;)
 
Chase, I'm telling you...you've got to check out the FJ forums. No better betting forum on the web, and I think you would make a great addition to the community.
You haven't "checked out" the site unless you have signed up to the forum.
 
I gave your website a visit. In general, outside of CAG (which is the only forum I partake), I like to keep to myself (and Twitter) to avoid static getting into my head and clouding my judgment. I have a personal—and financial interest—in keeping things this way. Best of luck to your website. And good picks for 150. :)
 
[quote name='paz9x']id assume youd be putting money on kaufman, would she be your pick?
Id bet her, but id pick ronda to win.[/QUOTE]


I think it's a waste of money to even chance that Kaufman beats Rousey. I have seen people mention parlays. I rarely do serious three-team parlays. Risk is too high with three entities—unless it's a parlay of Jon Jones, Anderson Silva, and, their love child, Jon Silva. A successful parlay of Rousey/Souza/Saffiedine would be a 86-percent ROI. Rousey/Souza has fallen to a meager 40-percent ROI. You take a risk with both options. Souza had an unusual, somewhat concerning performance against Marunde before the SUB. I think Saffiedine has been wholly unimpressive. Bowling has loss by TKO, but has shown knockout power. There is a genuine risk that Bowling may drop Saffiedine. Rousey is a 2012 MMA fighter fighting against 2002-level talent. She should beat Kaufman, but the strength of her chin is absolutely unknown. (I could be wrong with some things said in this paragraph, though, because, as of today, I have done no research or revisits. Just my opinion off memory.)
 
Few notes I read:

-Chael Sonnen is moving up to 205 to fight Forrest Griffin. Griffin holds a SUB win over Sonnen. Sonnen says he wants a run for the 205 strap.

-December 8th will see Henderson-Diaz for the 155 strap, Rua-Gustafsson, and Penn-MacDonald on the UFC on FOX 5 card. Three huge fights on free TV. The second world title fight on free TV since Dos Santos-Velasquez on the first FOX card.
 
[quote name='Chase']Few notes I read:

-Chael Sonnen is moving up to 205 to fight Forrest Griffin. Griffin holds a SUB win over Sonnen. Sonnen says he wants a run for the 205 strap.

-December 8th will see Henderson-Diaz for the 155 strap, Rua-Gustafsson, and Penn-MacDonald on the UFC on FOX 5 card. Three huge fights on free TV. The second world title fight on free TV since Dos Santos-Velasquez on the first FOX card.[/QUOTE]

Sweet!!! Get to see Henderson for free! And yes those other 2 fights are also gonna be great!

And I'm excited to see what Sonnen will do at 205. Dude's a moron but now that Silva is finally finished with him I'm actually interested in him.
 
Such a stacked card on Fox and with fights that should deliver rating wise and how good the fights were.Keyboard "should".
 
I almost think there should be a line for Chase to bet on for getting to the card injury free.
 
That's going to be an amazing next Fox card. One of the best top heavy cards ive seen all year.

And so far for UFC 155 on December 29th:
-Junior Dos Santos VS Cain Velasquez II
-Chael Sonnen VS Forrest Griffin (also there second fight)


UFC closing out the year with a bang!
 
Wanderlei Silva has also secured his next fight, although there is no word who it will be against. Silva just lost and is clearly in the stage of fighting very selective opponents...who is a good matchup for him?

A rematch with Leben? Is Nate Quarry still fighting? I can't even think of many that wouldn't either get demolished by, or demolish Wanderlei.
 
I really hope not Leben but I don't think Dana would be that cruel.Quarry officially retired on the first episode of Spiketv's MMA Uncensored.

Could do a match up with Palhares,maybe with Phillipou too.
 
[quote name='Magiblaze']I really hope not Leben but I don't think Dana would be that cruel.[/QUOTE]


Maybe I'm an asshole, but I'd support Wand-Lombard. Give Wand's declining chin to Lombard and have him deliver to us the TKO we deserve—and should have seen at UFC 149 (instead of that shitfest with Boetsch).

[quote name='ced']I almost think there should be a line for Chase to bet on for getting to the card injury free.[/QUOTE]


Ha! Well, I'd pass, as that bet would have far too much risk. ;) Safer play would be "How many jellybeans in a pickle jar" and selecting the prop "Jellybeans melt in the sun and form one massive mega-bean."
 
Anyone else surprised Gustaffsson opened up as a -145? Seems like a bit of a steal,have to expect the line going up as more people bet on him here.
 
Shogun would have been the favorite if he didn't gas out in four minutes and get bombed a few times by BRANDON VERA. A lot of people are going to be on Gustafsson but beware Shogun landing something and KO'ing him. Thiago hurt Alexander in their fight...
 
Its possible, wouldn't put it past Shogun but I'd definitely consider Gustaffson the fav.Haven't seen Gustaffsson vs. Silva since it first aired but don't remember Thiago rocking Alexander at any point in their fight but its been a long time so could just be hazy memory of only remembering Gustaffsson using that range winning all the rounds picking his shots.
 
Shogun has a pretty iron chin so going with Alexander via decision seems right.Actually kind of curious to see Sonnen vs. Griffin and seeing how that turns out with Sonnen moving back up to LHW.Griffin did catch him with a triangle choke before but that was nearly 10 years ago and although Sonnen is still prone to submissions but hes still improved his sub defense a lot since they were both rookies even if its still his weakness.I think it'll be a bit more competitive then the -300 for Sonnen would have you think even with Griffin's decline,still wouldn't bet on the fight though.
 
Sonnen is a good play in this situation. He won't be dwarfed at LHW against Griffin and the fact that Griffin caught Sonnen with a Triangle Choke 10 years ago makes no difference in my opinion. Sonnen is a high level grappler despite the misconceptions and Griffin is not a powerhouse submission artist. I would give the "edge" in grappling to Griffin but he will be forced to try and move/sweep/submit a 205lb Division I wrestler.

Griffin is shot as well and could conceivably get hurt badly/KO'd on the feet.
 
Up in Reno and nearly placed a straight bet on Bones to win at -700 in a tipsy stupor. Good job me being buzzed and forgetting negative numbers are the favorites.

Now that I've sobered up, I'm still almost crazy enough to put a small bet on Hendo at +500. More fun than winning a few bags of peanuts with a bet on Jones.
 
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If I were going to lay a single bet on the two I'd go with Hendo, hes got that big right hand of his so at +500 might at least walk away with a little something if things go your way.Just too heavy of a fav for me to go with Jones betting wise, maybe in a parlay but even then not sure if I like him -700ish.

Not too much to get excited about on Strikeforce's card tonight. :cry:
 
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