Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='xxDOYLExx']for better or worse, they actually do.[/QUOTE]

How so? If I stick with the dentistry example, my dentist charges $805 a root canal. The only control my insurer exerted over that cost was to negotiate a lower price with my dentist which lowered the cost to $654. Then my insurer covered 80% which is what I knew I would get when I elected to purchase the dental insurance. So I ended up paying $130.80 for an $805.00 procedure. My dental insurance is not a high end plan it is a very basic one. Explain to me where my insurance company is screwing me.
 
[quote name='Knoell']How so? If I stick with the dentistry example, my dentist charges $805 a root canal. The only control my insurer exerted over that cost was to negotiate a lower price with my dentist which lowered the cost to $654. Then my insurer covered 80% which is what I knew I would get when I elected to purchase the dental insurance. So I ended up paying $130.80 for an $805.00 procedure. My dental insurance is not a high end plan it is a very basic one. Explain to me where my insurance company is screwing me.[/QUOTE]

Do you understand that your insurer negotiating a lower price for a procedure is them directly controlling the cost of a procedure?

We'll get to your insurer screwing you later if needed.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Do you have an idea of how much money you and your company have paid into your dental policy?[/QUOTE]

I pay 12 dollars a pay period (two weeks). I am not entirely certain but I believe my employer pays a bit more, but I'm thinking somewhere in the $50 dollar a pay period range.

Yep thats right, you add it up and the insurance company lost money on me. GASP! how can that be? The insurance company is only supposed to gobble up all of the profits! Why haven't I been kicked off the plan yet?!
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Do you understand that your insurer negotiating a lower price for a procedure is them directly controlling the cost of a procedure?

We'll get to your insurer screwing you later if needed.[/QUOTE]

Ok so you are saying that insurers lowering the price is a bad thing? Because Msut has been saying they raise the prices on purpose. Which is it?

Edit: To take that a step further, Do you think insurance companies negotiate to get higher prices?
 
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Do you understand that your insurer negotiating a lower price for a procedure is them directly controlling the cost of a procedure?

We'll get to your insurer screwing you later if needed.[/QUOTE]
This, thus the better part.

The worse part is when the Dr. finds another way to make up for the revenue on the procedures they feel like they lost money on by overcharging for other procedures.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Yep thats right, you add it up and the insurance company lost money on me. GASP! how can that be? The insurance company is only supposed to gobble up all of the profits! Why haven't I been kicked off the plan yet?![/QUOTE]
The straw man fail is strong with this one.
[quote name='Knoell']Ok so you are saying that insurers lowering the price is a bad thing? Because Msut has been saying they raise the prices on purpose. Which is it?[/quote]
The difference is between what you pay the insurer (which is higher) vs what the insurer pays the dentist (which is lower). That seems kind of obvious, no?
 
[quote name='speedracer']The straw man fail is strong with this one.

The difference is between what you pay the insurer (which is higher) vs what the insurer pays the dentist (which is lower). That seems kind of obvious, no?[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? I pay 20% of the cost directly to the DENTIST, the insurer pays 80%.
 
Still waitin' on your response Knoell. You unequivocally accepted that report about why Romneycare was such a failure, yet you completely reject the recommendation of a single-payer solution e.g. Medicare for all.

can you spell FAILURE
 
[quote name='IRHari']Still waitin' on your response Knoell. You unequivocally accepted that report about why Romneycare was such a failure, yet you completely reject the recommendation of a single-payer solution e.g. Medicare for all.

can you spell FAILURE[/QUOTE]

So its one or the other huh? government or government. Why is the answer always government?
 
Again, you accepted, without any question, the conclusion that Romneycare was a failure. You accepted all the negatives.

So, why would you accept everything EXCEPT the recommended solution? If you accept their logic through 99% of the report why would you suddenly reject their logic in that 1% part that proposes a solution?
 
[quote name='IRHari']Again, you accepted, without any question, the conclusion that Romneycare was a failure. You accepted all the negatives.

So, why would you accept everything EXCEPT the recommended solution? If you accept their logic through 99% of the report why would you suddenly reject their logic in that 1% part that proposes a solution?[/QUOTE]

Do you accept 100% of any report?
 
You're trying to deflect. Answer a question by asking another question.

Again, why are you completely rejecting the solution but completely accepting the rest of the report which argues Romneycare is a problem?
 
[quote name='IRHari']You're trying to deflect. Answer a question by asking another question.

Again, why are you completely rejecting the solution but completely accepting the rest of the report which argues Romneycare is a problem?[/QUOTE]

because the report goes into detail and does a study on an existing health care system (romneycare) and then briefly says at the end of the report that a single payer system would be the solution without any study or evidence put forth.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Ok so you are saying that insurers lowering the price is a bad thing? Because Msut has been saying they raise the prices on purpose. Which is it?

Edit: To take that a step further, Do you think insurance companies negotiate to get higher prices?[/QUOTE]

I don't have enough time to construct a theoretical model of collusion between doctors and insurance companies.

I think doctors understand insurance companies except some meat off of the bone. So, doctors increase their base price to maintain some measure of profit after insurance takes their discount and passes it their clients. If doctors charged one rate for their services, insurance companies would lose most of their ability to sell their product.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I don't have enough time to construct a theoretical model of collusion between doctors and insurance companies.

I think doctors understand insurance companies except some meat off of the bone. So, doctors increase their base price to maintain some measure of profit after insurance takes their discount and passes it their clients. If doctors charged one rate for their services, insurance companies would lose most of their ability to sell their product.[/QUOTE]

Not true, Insurers take losses on people who make claims. Do you honestly think that Insurers kick people off because they are big profit hungry meanies? Or do you think they are trying to control their costs?
 
[quote name='Knoell']Not true, Insurers take losses on people who make claims. Do you honestly think that Insurers kick people off because they are big profit hungry meanies? Or do you think they are trying to control their costs?[/QUOTE]

Both. I think insurers kick off people making claims because the insurer is trying to control the cost of their business and maintain a healthy profit.

Why do you think insurers kick people off their insurance?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Both. I think insurers kick off people making claims because the insurer is trying to control the cost of their business and maintain a healthy profit.

Why do you think insurers kick people off their insurance?[/QUOTE]

I think you got it right.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Both. I think insurers kick off people making claims because the insurer is trying to control the cost of their business and maintain a healthy profit.

Why do you think insurers kick people off their insurance?[/QUOTE]

OOh I can I effin play?

Insurers kick people off their plan because they believe based on actuarial data and claim history that said person will end up costing them a lot of money in the future. Thus killing their profit.

Insurers compete only for the healthy people. None of them want to insures the sickies.
 
Another interesting point. Have any of you offered to pay cash instead of filing a claim for your doctors visits or procedures and witnessed a drastic change is cost?
 
[quote name='xxDOYLExx']I couldn't agree more regarding the other government expenditures that should take a back seat to healthcare (space exploration). Okay, maybe I got that one from Geoff Tate.[/QUOTE]

You ROCK. Check my sig.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Do you have an idea of how much money you and your company have paid into your dental policy?[/QUOTE]

Herein lies one of the biggest problems with our current system: he has no idea (nor do I) the total amount expended on insurance through your own cost, the company's, and the tax incentives. Think of it this way: if you didn't know games cost $50 brand new and your games insurance paid 80% of the cost of a brand new game, would you be concerned as much about price? Do you hesitate as much to buy the same game at $50 as you do at $10?
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Herein lies one of the biggest problems with our current system: he has no idea (nor do I) the total amount expended on insurance through your own cost, the company's, and the tax incentives. Think of it this way: if you didn't know games cost $50 brand new and your games insurance paid 80% of the cost of a brand new game, would you be concerned as much about price? Do you hesitate as much to buy the same game at $50 as you do at $10?[/QUOTE]

I know how much the procedure costs, I have a paper right here that says what it costs, and what they will pay for. I pay the rest directly to the dentist, not the insurance company.

I know how much I'm paying for the premium and the procedure, I know how much the dentist is charging, and I know how much the insurer is paying out. The only thing I am uncertain of is how much my employer pays into the premium.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I know how much the procedure costs, I have a paper right here that says what it costs, and what they will pay for. I pay the rest directly to the dentist, not the insurance company.

I know how much I'm paying for the premium and the procedure, I know how much the dentist is charging, and I know how much the insurer is paying out. The only thing I am uncertain of is how much my employer pays into the premium.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. You don't know the full cost, including your employer's portion and the tax incentives in place regarding health insurance. The best way for a free market system (which our health care system assuredly isn't) to work is for all costs to be transparent so that consumers can make intelligent choices with their own money.

EDIT: intelligent choices, not intelligence (duh)
 
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[quote name='elprincipe']Think of it this way: if you didn't know games cost $50 brand new and your games insurance paid 80% of the cost of a brand new game, would you be concerned as much about price?[/QUOTE]

Starting to wonder if ElPrincipe is one of UncleBob's aliases.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I simply do not believe the reason health care costs are so high is solely because of insurance companies.[/quote]

They aren't the only reason, but they are a big part of the reason.

The insurance companies DO pay out hundreds of millions of dollars a year to the insured. For you to say they don't and just keep the money for profit is simply false.
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It isn't all profit but either way it is waste (most of the time that is called overhead) and money that could other wise go to medical care.

It is estimated that almost 30% of what is spent on healthcare in the US is lost as overhead, Medicare meanwhile has overhead of about 3%.

Insurers may raise premiums but they do not directly control the cost of the procedures.
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They have quite a bit of power, I am not splitting hairs with you concerning "directly".

Edit: I forgot about Germany. Germany technically does it very well. We are not moving in the direction of Germany. Our officials believe that a monopoly must be offered in order to efficiently offer health insurance for all, and they waste their time taxing plans that offer better coverage aka the cadillac tax. The system we are moving towards is nothing like Germanys
Click to expand...

You don't know a single thing about the German healthcare system do you?
 
[quote name='Msut77'] It isn't all profit but either way it is waste (most of the time that is called overhead)[/QUOTE]

you say tomato, and I say tomahto
 
[quote name='Knoell']What are you talking about? I pay 20% of the cost directly to the DENTIST, the insurer pays 80%.[/QUOTE]
That's a dental indemnity plan, not an DHMO plan. If it was a full blown insurance policy, you would pay a co-pay and have a network of dentists. I think it's generally agreed upon that this thread is talking about big insurance ie HMOs, not Joe Bob's Dental Indemnity and Gun Racks.

Run into "usual and customary" yet?
 
[quote name='xxDOYLExx']you say tomato, and I say tomahto[/QUOTE]

Yep, another man's inefficiencies and graft is another man's meal ticket.
 
[quote name='speedracer']That's a dental indemnity plan, not an DHMO plan. If it was a full blown insurance policy, you would pay a co-pay and have a network of dentists. I think it's generally agreed upon that this thread is talking about big insurance ie HMOs, not Joe Bob's Dental Indemnity and Gun Racks.

Run into "usual and customary" yet?[/QUOTE]

The insurance is full-blown and I do pay a co pay and have a network of dentists.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Herein lies one of the biggest problems with our current system: he has no idea (nor do I) the total amount expended on insurance through your own cost, the company's, and the tax incentives. Think of it this way: if you didn't know games cost $50 brand new and your games insurance paid 80% of the cost of a brand new game, would you be concerned as much about price? Do you hesitate as much to buy the same game at $50 as you do at $10?[/QUOTE]

Bingo! Comprehensive health insurance, whether provided by the government or by private insurance companies leads to higher costs and is part of the problem. I have no idea how much stuff that I'm ordering costs. I can tell you that an MRI costs more than a CT, which costs more than a radiograph, but I have no clue what each costs exactly and then there is the difference b/w what we bill and what amount is typically reimbursed by insurance... It is a crazy system!

This summarizes it well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI
 
Aside from the hypochondriacs in the country, i don't see how people overuse their insurance, i know i didn't when i had it. Who the hell wants to go to the doctor unless they have to? I hate going to see doctors, no way would i unless it was necessary.

As soon as Stossel grabbed the graph i started laughing, something about that seemed like it was straight from the Daily Show.
 
Thinkprogress documents Heritage Foundations hypocrisy re: Obamacare vs. Romneycare:

– Heritage On Romney’s Individual Mandate: “Not an unreasonable position, and one that is clearly consistent with conservative values.” [Heritage, 1/28/06]
– Heritage On President Obama’s Individual Mandate: “Both unprecedented and unconstitutional.” [Heritage, 12/9/09]
​
– Heritage On Romney’s Insurance Exchange: An “innovative mechanism to promote real consumer choice.” [Heritage, 4/20/06]
– Heritage On President Obama’s Insurance Exchange: Creates a “de facto public option” by “grow[ing]” government control over healthcare.” [Heritage, 3/30/10]
– Heritage On Romney’s Medicaid Expansion: Reduced “the total cost to taxpayers” by taking people out of the “uncompensated care pool.” [Heritage, 1/28/06]
– Heritage On President Obama’s Medicaid Expansion: Expands a “broken entitlement program,” providing a “low-quality, poorly functioning program.” [Heritage, 3/30/10]
​
 
:lol: Glen Beck is such a fucking moron. In the past my doctor has done just what he talks about, wrote a different prescription depending on my insurance. You know why? Because the first one he was going to prescribe he knew wasn't covered, so he wrote one for a different medication that was covered. Not that it matters now, i tell him whatever is cheaper since i can't afford the huge prices for some of the stuff out there.
 
I'm really embarrassed that I didn't realize what the real reason was. It's just welfare. After it passed the message suddenly switched to 'I don't want to pay for poor people.'

I thought the opposition was based on merits, but then I realized the Republicans pretty much had no legitimate complaints about the substance of the bill. All they complained about was 'it's not addressing tort reform like WE want.' Then, they began complaining about the way it was paid for. THEN i.e. now, it's about a 'big gov't program'.

In reality, their constituents are being completely honest about their opposition to the bill. It's paying for health insurance for people who didn't 'earn' it.
 
[quote name='BigT']Boy, it's great that you guys liked the clip so much and I appreciate the insightful comments and criticism[/quote]

Rubber, glue, something something.

What exactly do you think would happen to the elderly for example in a cash and carry, pure market based system?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Rubber, glue, something something.

What exactly do you think would happen to the elderly for example in a cash and carry, pure market based system?[/QUOTE]

Nobody will answer that question.

http://www.artfulgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/fallout_death_comp.jpg

fallout_death_comp.jpg


And neither will I.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Rubber, glue, something something.

What exactly do you think would happen to the elderly for example in a cash and carry, pure market based system?[/QUOTE]

Who says it has to be cash and carry, pure market based system? What about a mix of the two? What do you think will happen if we have a pure government based system?


I think BigT brought up a great video, and as usual you all dismissed it without any serious comments because you do not want to hear anything reasonable.

People may not be waking up and thinking of how they can use or even abuse their health care, but people are going to the hospital, and doctor for anything because they do not care what it costs because they don't see the bill. Not every doctor visit is because they have cancer, and not every emergency room visit is because someone cut their finger off or got shot.
 
What if someone is on a high deductible plan and can't afford what would actually help them, do they shop around until someone sells them something at a cheaper price that won't actually help them?

Do you take choice away from someone when you make it so that they can't afford effective treatments?
 
[quote name='SpazX']What if someone is on a high deductible plan and can't afford what would actually help them, do they shop around until someone sells them something at a cheaper price that won't actually help them?

Do you take choice away from someone when you make it so that they can't afford effective treatments?[/QUOTE]
health savings accounts.
 
[quote name='SpazX']How exactly does that solve the problem?[/QUOTE]

people save their own money throughout the year to use for smaller problems. Usually they rollover and are untaxed, so they can develop from year to year and build up.
 
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