Piracy

Koggit

Koggit

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I wish the Lifestyle & OT thread had been moved here instead of closed.

I plan on pursuing IP law (patent not copyright, but still) after my undergraduate so I find this really interesting. I was shocked by how illogical everyone was in the OT thread.

IMO piracy isn't theft, but it's close. It's like .8 theft. 5*Piracy = 4*Theft.

Personally, I strongly believe nobody should pirate, but I do it anyway. I'm admittedly part of the problem.
 
This thread will probably get closed too... Do you have a science or engineering background? I thought about IP law too but after taking a few classes in law school I decided against it. Patent lawyers are paid VERY well though.
 
[quote name='javeryh']This thread will probably get closed too... Do you have a science or engineering background? I thought about IP law too but after taking a few classes in law school I decided against it. Patent lawyers are paid VERY well though.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'm an Electrical Engineering / Physics double major. I have a 3.7 (should go up by the time I apply) and have been getting around 165 on the LSATs (with very little prep, my target is 170 by the time I take it). We'll see how that all goes, I'm not sure if I'm capable of a 170. I'm just finishing my sophomore year so there's a ways to go. I don't think I'll go through with it unless I can get in to a good school though, otherwise I'll probably just go for my masters in EE and see where that takes me.
 
As I said in the other thread, it's theft plain and simple. Either pay for stuff, or do without it.

Having 100 albums worth of MP3s that you never bought is just as bad as stealing 100 CDs. The artists and record labels are losing out on money either way. Same with games, movies etc.

Buy it legally, or don't use it. If you think things are overpriced, do without them.
 
Agreed. It's stealing. Just because you don't deprive someone of something, like if your car was stolen out of your driveway, doesn't mean it's not stealing. You're taking something you have no right to take, hence, stealing.

I'm not sure how much of a problem it is. I don't think Joe Blow downloading an album from a P2P is not as much of a problem as a "professional" pirate taking a DV of a brand new movie release in theatres and making complete DVD bootleg copies of it and selling it in Chinatown or Times Square..but if something's wrong, it's wrong regardless of the impact or potential impact. However, in addition to both being thieves, i think the scumbag "professional" pirates who profit from it are hypocrites.
 
The artists & record labels aren't losing out on physical theft, actually. Unless the store & record label have the same owner.

Piracy is worse than stealing for the owner of the IP, but I think stealing is worse than piracy overall.


[quote name='dtcarson']I'm not sure how much of a problem it is. I don't think Joe Blow downloading an album from a P2P is not as much of a problem as a "professional" pirate taking a DV of a brand new movie release in theatres and making complete DVD bootleg copies of it and selling it in Chinatown or Times Square..but if something's wrong, it's wrong regardless of the impact or potential impact. However, in addition to both being thieves, i think the scumbag "professional" pirates who profit from it are hypocrites.[/QUOTE]

I dunno, the scale of P2P file sharing is mind boggling. Have you ever seen the statistics of big torrent trackers? Sometimes a single new movie, still in theatres, will have 20,000+ users on any given time. I've seen some episodes of popular anime come close to a million downloads (popular Naruto episodes are at 900,000+ completed downloads each). It's hard to track the scale of P2P applications but I'm sure it's even larger (personally, I know many more people who pirate music than movies or anime). I think the guy selling 20 copies in Time Square is a drop in the bucket.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Yeah, I'm an Electrical Engineering / Physics double major. I have a 3.7 (should go up by the time I apply) and have been getting around 165 on the LSATs (with very little prep, my target is 170 by the time I take it). We'll see how that all goes, I'm not sure if I'm capable of a 170. I'm just finishing my sophomore year so there's a ways to go. I don't think I'll go through with it unless I can get in to a good school though, otherwise I'll probably just go for my masters in EE and see where that takes me.[/quote]

If you graduate with a 3.7 with that major and then score between 165 and 170 on your LSATs I seriously think a Top 10 law school is easily within your reach. You will be competing with 90% of applicants with BS majors like Government, Sociology or whatever and law schools love people who actually had to study in college.
 
Here is how I feel about piracy.

99.9% of the stuff I download, there is no chance I would ever pay for it anyways. The only reason I would want to see a movie like, for example, Funny Games, is because I could download it for free. If I had to actually pay money to see it, I never would. Therefore, I am not costing the movie or music companies any money at all, since I wouldn't have paid to see it to begin with.

As for video games, even if I had the know-how to pirate games, I still wouldn't. I only pay $22 a month for my games anyways, so it just doesn't make time or effort sense to pirate them.
 
It's simple, don't try to dick the customer (Ex. price gouge especially if it's blatent) and stop making CRAP (refering to tv, music, movies) and there will be less piracy. That's how I see it anyway. Till then I have no problems with piracy.

[quote name='Koggit']Personally, I strongly believe nobody should pirate, but I do it anyway. I'm admittedly part of the problem.[/quote]

Between the current status of the poll and the above quote I don't know what's more hilarious.
 
[quote name='Koggit']

I dunno, the scale of P2P file sharing is mind boggling. Have you ever seen the statistics of big torrent trackers? Sometimes a single new movie, still in theatres, will have 20,000+ users on any given time. I've seen some episodes of popular anime come close to a million downloads (popular Naruto episodes are at 900,000+ completed downloads each). .[/QUOTE]

Really? Wow. Yeah, that's big. I was thinking more of the Chinese/Russian professional pirate companies, but it's quite possible the P2P/torret numbers are much larger.
I can definitely see music being bigger than movies, simply due to ease of use and filesizes.

"Piracy is worse than stealing for the owner of the IP, but I think stealing is worse than piracy overall."

I'd agree with that, upon thinking about it. Maybe not "worse", but "greater measurable negative impact". Piracy--downloading or copying content--merely creates an illegal copy of the item, and doesn't really "deprive" anyone of anything. Physically stealing, however, does deprive a store of its inventory, which is bad for everyone--the store has to deal with the shrink, they have to make that up in higher prices or lower services or lower wages, etc.


Why would you pirate crap? If someone releases a crappy movie or game or CD, I'm not going to waste my money in buying it or my time and energy in pirating/downloading it. "I want to watch this crappy movie, but I'm not going to pay the 17.00 it would cost to buy it, or the three dollars it would cost to rent from Blockbuster?"

There's no such thing as "price gouging", especially with luxuries. A seller has the right to sell his product at whatever price he thinks the market will bear--the buyer has the right to buy or not. I don't negate his right to bitch about the price, saying "100$ for one season of The Sopranos on DVD is too damn much!", I have said the same quite often. However, every statement like that has an implication of "for me" at the end. As such it's subjective and varies from person to person. I think 40 bucks for a steak is way too much, but Ruth's Chris is still in business--that doesn't mean I have the right to steal that steak.

The argument that "I wouldn't buy it anyway!" is a red herring. If you wouldn't buy it at the price asked, you don't have the "right" to possess the item or a copy thereof just because you feel it's "price gouging".

I know I'm fighting demographics here--the vast majority of people here and on the internet grew up with access to it, and are overall a population with a very great sense of entitlement, and "information should be free!" is still a rallying cry, incorrect as it is.

I think most arguments for piracy ultimately boil down to one of two core concepts:
* Supporting the belief that pirating does hurt the company: This company pissed me off, so I'm going to take their stuff to punish them; or,
* Supporting the belief that pirating does *not* hurt the publishing company: They're selling an item, and I just don't want to pay what they're asking, so I'm making a illegal, unauthorized copy of it.
So, either spite/revenge or (the bad kind of) cheapassness.

Regarding the poll:
Define "problem". I think the financial impact of the various types of piracy on the various industries is overrepresented, and while I don't condone piracy, I think the industries, especially the music industry, have sort of set themselves up for it. Sort of like walking through a bad part of town flashing fifties--the guy who mugs you is totally not in the right, but you could have done something more to protect yourself/prevent it.
I think the bigger problem is metaphysical and social, and is exemplified in some of the posts in this thread. The concept of "I want this, but I don't want to pay for it, so I'm going to pirate it" is, imho, potentially harmful to our society, just like "I want this, but I can't afford it, so I'll charge it" is. Lack of delayed gratification, lack of willpower, lack of respect for owner's rights, sense of entitlement, etc.
 
Lots of excuses/justifications.

The fact that you wouldn't pay money for the stuff you download doesn't make it right. I use Netflix and watch a lot of movies--ones I really want to see and some I'm only a tad interested in. That's the legal way to do it. Stuff not worth a netflix isn't with the 2 hours to watch it.

If things are overpriced and suck, don't buy them. If it's crap, why do you even want it for free?

I don't buy much music anymore. Mainly just listen to the 300 some odd albums I already have and buy mostly new albums by bands I've liked for years. Prices are fine, pretty easy to find most albums for $10-12.

Games you just have to wait on. Most everything drops price or has a big sell within a couple of months, and everything (other than Nintendo first party stuff) drops after 6 months to a year.

Again if you can't afford it, or don't think it's worth the money, then just do without it rather than pirating it.
 
I think the biggest hole in "I wouldn't watch it if I couldn't pirate it" is that it doesn't take into consideration what you'd be otherwise doing.

I've been watching pirated anime a lot this week (no school). If I hadn't, I wouldn't have purchased any anime, but I may have rented a movie, watched TV, etc.. something. I'm not sure what I would've done, but chances are somebody somewhere would have profited, and they didn't.
 
I'm curious as to how people feel about buying a CD and ripping it to your computer, mp3 player, burning a copy for the car, etc. Technically, all of that is copyright infringement depending on what the license is that you are granted when you purchase the rights to use the first copy. When you buy a CD you don't own the music on the disc to do whatever you want with - you are buying the rights to that specific copy (a license) and should only use it in the manner dictated by the copyright holder. Are you hung up on the "copying" aspect ("stealing") of copyright infringement only? There are 5 rights that someone has in connection with a copyrighted work - the right to control copying is only one of them.
 
Jav, I feel as though your post is essentially asking whether the objection to copyright infringement extends to legal borders or only moral borders. I think this is more fit for a topic on jurisprudence, but I don't mind this thread going in that direction (since it seems we're all on the same base as far as piracy is concerned).

I would create backup copies even if expressly forbidden by the license. I would (and have) even bypass copy protection to do so. I break other terms of licenses -- for example, I use a no-CD crack in Diablo 2, violating the EULA... I then am no longer authorized to play the game, but continue to do so.

I support the strict adherence of all laws. If every man chose which laws to obey and disobey, what would be the point of law? Yet I often choose which laws I obey and which I disobey... I think if everyone behaved as I do the world would be worse off, but I do not think my actions are unacceptably immoral.

The direct answer being I wish everyone adhered to every aspect of every law, but don't expect it of anyone, even myself.
 
[quote name='Koggit']I support the strict adherence of all laws. If every man chose which laws to obey and disobey, what would be the point of law? Yet I often choose which laws I obey and which I disobey... I think if everyone behaved as I do the world would be worse off, but I do not think my actions are unacceptably immoral.

The direct answer being I wish everyone adhered to every aspect of every law, but don't expect it of anyone, even myself.[/quote]

I have trouble with this because there are people that don't obey other MORE IMPORTANT laws and that's why we have jails and all. Also, it's natural not to obey some laws because the law that has been implemented does jack fucking squat... :cough: Kalifornya's cell phone law :cough:
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']I have trouble with this because there are people that don't obey other MORE IMPORTANT laws and that's why we have jails and all. Also, it's natural not to obey some laws because the law that has been implemented does jack fucking squat... :cough: Kalifornya's cell phone law :cough:[/QUOTE]

I'm sort of confused as to why that's you having trouble with what I said... isn't that you agreeing with what I said?
 
Piracy is theft, no doubt about it. Do I really feel bad about it? No. I think piracy has helped to bring down the prices of dvds and cds though. Cd's were pretty expensive for a long time.
 
Hypothetical here: should it be legal for American libraries to digitize their books/music/movies and make them available via online checkouts?

I think the library system of America is great. Unfortunately as the world becomes increasingly digitized, I think corporations will stunt it's advancement until the system becomes woefully archaic.
 
[quote name='javeryh']You will be competing with 90% of applicants with BS majors like Government, Sociology or whatever and law schools love people who actually had to study in college.[/quote]I hope you're fucking happy. You just gave our only Mykevermin a heart attack!
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']As I said in the other thread, it's theft plain and simple. Either pay for stuff, or do without it.

Having 100 albums worth of MP3s that you never bought is just as bad as stealing 100 CDs. The artists and record labels are losing out on money either way. Same with games, movies etc.

Buy it legally, or don't use it. If you think things are overpriced, do without them.[/quote]
If I have 100 albums of MP3s, the company didn't love anything, their profit just isn't as high. If I steal 100 CDs, then the company is out the cost it took to make the CD. Big difference.

And yes, I wish my thread could have been an intelligent conversation, but it had already turned into a flame-fest, so I closed it.

Anyway, I do pirate. Do I think it's a problem? Not really. I think that in today's world, most artists/developers expect a certain percentage of their product to be pirated. I think that if games/music were more moderately priced, it would be much easier for me to buy them. It costs about a nickel to press a CD, yet they're sold for $15. I think that if they dropped that price down to about 5 dollars, they wouldn't make as much on each CD, but they'd sell much more copies. Hell, if I could pick up the new Disturbed album for 5 bucks, I'd buy it. Also, $60 for a 360 game? How do you expect a teenager to pay for games like that? Again, if they dropped the prices, they'd sell more copies.

I'm not saying piracy is right, as it's not, and I'm not justifying my actions. But with some things being so expensive, it's either I buy it, or pirate it. And if I pirate a game, it usually means I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. (I do buy some games, GOOD ones. I'd pick up another copies of Lumines in a second.) Anyway, if I see that piracy is starting to become a MAJOR problem, I'd probably cut back. But as I said before, piracy isn't using up any resources, or costing companies money, so I don't see that happening.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']If I have 100 albums of MP3s, the company didn't love anything, their profit just isn't as high. If I steal 100 CDs, then the company is out the cost it took to make the CD. Big difference.[/QUOTE]

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't think you said it quite right.

If you pirate 100 albums, the creator(s) is missing 100 albums worth of royalties (there are other forms of creator compensation but royalties make this discussion easiest). If you physically steal 100 albums, the creator & company get their royalties but the retailer you stole from loses however much they paid for those 100 albums.

This is why I stated in the OP that I don't think piracy is as bad as physical theft, but the difference is certainly not all that large. It's just a matter of who's feeling the pain.

[quote name='Access_Denied']I think that if games/music were more moderately priced, it would be much easier for me to buy them. It costs about a nickel to press a CD, yet they're sold for $15. I think that if they dropped that price down to about 5 dollars, they wouldn't make as much on each CD, but they'd sell much more copies.[/QUOTE]

It costs my dad about $5 to plant, grow & harvest a ton of sugar cane, yet you pay nearly that much for a pound at the store. You don't buy sugar because it's too overpriced, I assume? The same goes for pretty much any industry.

There's a lot more to the cost of a product than you're considering. A lot of people have to be paid along the way. I read an article recently about how record companies are finding corners to cut because they needed to reduce the wholesale price of their CDs from $12 to under $10, or else WalMart was going to stop selling their product (which was a large portion of their sales). The record companies' margins are a lot lower than many other industries (movies, for example). They can't just lower the price, it's not that easy.

[quote name='Access_Denied']Hell, if I could pick up the new Disturbed album for 5 bucks, I'd buy it. Also, $60 for a 360 game? How do you expect a teenager to pay for games like that? Again, if they dropped the prices, they'd sell more copies.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure where to begin.

1. Teenagers found a way to pay for NES games $50 each 15+ years ago when $50 was equivalent to about $90 today, so I'm pretty sure teenagers today don't have it so bad here in 2008 with $60 MSRPs -- and if they do, they can wait nine months and get it for half that.

2. I assure you their marketing departments have assessed the sweet spot in pricing for maximizing sales and profit. That's their job. If they could drop the price by $10 and make up for the loss through increased sales, that's exactly what they'd do. But I'm sure you know better than their team of market experts.

3. $5 for an album is not feasible (Google if you have doubts, I won't explain it here).

[quote name='Access_Denied']I'm not saying piracy is right, as it's not, and I'm not justifying my actions. But with some things being so expensive, it's either I buy it, or pirate it. And if I pirate a game, it usually means I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. (I do buy some games, GOOD ones. I'd pick up another copies of Lumines in a second.) Anyway, if I see that piracy is starting to become a MAJOR problem, I'd probably cut back. But as I said before, piracy isn't using up any resources, or costing companies money, so I don't see that happening.[/QUOTE]

You say you're not justifying your actions, and then try to say your piracy is not hurting anything? :roll:
 
[quote name='javeryh']I'm curious as to how people feel about buying a CD and ripping it to your computer, mp3 player, burning a copy for the car, etc. Technically, all of that is copyright infringement depending on what the license is that you are granted when you purchase the rights to use the first copy. When you buy a CD you don't own the music on the disc to do whatever you want with - you are buying the rights to that specific copy (a license) and should only use it in the manner dictated by the copyright holder. Are you hung up on the "copying" aspect ("stealing") of copyright infringement only? There are 5 rights that someone has in connection with a copyrighted work - the right to control copying is only one of them.[/QUOTE]

I thought that was fair use? If not, forgive my ignorance on this complex and arcane topic.

I respect copyright laws and do not illegally download stuff. On a related note, I think we all can agree that current law provides protection over much too lengthy a period to works that should make it earlier into the public domain.
 
[quote name='Koggit']

There's a lot more to the cost of a product than you're considering. A lot of people have to be paid along the way. I read an article recently about how record companies are finding corners to cut because they needed to reduce the wholesale price of their CDs from $12 to under $10, or else WalMart was going to stop selling their product (which was a large portion of their sales). The record companies' margins are a lot lower than many other industries (movies, for example). They can't just lower the price, it's not that easy.

[/QUOTE]

I think if we're talking specifically about cd's, it's time for the model to change. I think more then likely that artists need to start bypassing the middle man, or the record companies need to start streamlining their operations and only do digital distribution or something like that.
 
It is not theft at all. It is preservation of material. Witout pirates nobody would be able to get certain products. Like Anime, and films for example. Image all those wonderfull home made products out there thanks to pirates.
 
[quote name='javeryh']I'm curious as to how people feel about buying a CD and ripping it to your computer, mp3 player, burning a copy for the car, etc. Technically, all of that is copyright infringement depending on what the license is that you are granted when you purchase the rights to use the first copy. When you buy a CD you don't own the music on the disc to do whatever you want with - you are buying the rights to that specific copy (a license) and should only use it in the manner dictated by the copyright holder. Are you hung up on the "copying" aspect ("stealing") of copyright infringement only? There are 5 rights that someone has in connection with a copyrighted work - the right to control copying is only one of them.[/QUOTE]

No making copies for yourself is fine--you've bought the thing. You have a license to make back ups etc. Just like you can legally have ROMs of games to use on an emulator if you own (still have) the real game cart.

It's not ok to burn CDs to give to a friend, or give them MP3s etc. Of course I do that from time to time--but I'm not going to come on here and make excuses that it's legal, or not that bad etc.

At the end of the day, piracy isn't a huge, evil crime or something, but it is acquiring for free something you're supposed to pay for, so I can't stand when people make stupid rationalizations for it.

[quote name='Access_Denied']If I have 100 albums of MP3s, the company didn't love anything, their profit just isn't as high. If I steal 100 CDs, then the company is out the cost it took to make the CD. Big difference.
[/QUOTE]

That's just the exact type of stupid bullshit rationalizations that I can't stand. Yes, they didn't lose any physcial product.

But you have their product without paying for it. They "lost" the money they should have got for you to own and enjoy those albums.

And the "but I wouldn't have got them if I had to pay for them" really doesn't fly. Who the fuck listens to albums that aren't worth buying anyway? Especially when you can find pretty much anything for $10-15 tops. Not bad for music you can listen to for the rest of your life. We're routinely dropping more than that on games that we'll beat once and never play again.

Just pay for what you want, and skip stuff you don't think is worth paying for. It's ethical and it's a good way to focus time on music, movies and games that are worthy of your attention by being more selective in what you acquire.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']And the "but I wouldn't have got them if I had to pay for them" really doesn't fly. Who the fuck listens to albums that aren't worth buying anyway? Especially when you can find pretty much anything for $10-15 tops. Not bad for music you can listen to for the rest of your life. We're routinely dropping more than that on games that we'll beat once and never play again.[/QUOTE]

It does.

I have a alot of music (with a good amount of that being pirated) but it splits into 5% - stuff I'd paid for since I really really love it/wanted to support the artist, 55% - albums that are decent but nowhere near worth $10-15, 40% - of musicans I never heard of before downloading it and decided to keep it since they were halfway decent.

If it wasn't for piracy, 95% of the stuff I "stole", I would have never purchased (either through ignorance or lack of funds).

2.5% of the stuff I currently paid for, I wouldn't have since I wouldn't have been able to preview it and double check that I wanted to drop money on it.

[quote name='dmaul1114']Just pay for what you want, and skip stuff you don't think is worth paying for. It's ethical and it's a good way to focus time on music, movies and games that are worthy of your attention by being more selective in what you acquire.[/QUOTE]

Why skip it when I don't have to? It's possible for me to check everything I want out without hurting a soul. I don't give a shit about supposed "ethics" especially when they are being pushed by the stupid assholes who get 90% of the cash and label me a thief for trying to expand my horizons beyond what's being played on the radio and not the person who's actually creating the stuff I'm listening to.

Where exactly do you draw the line? Do you also not rent or buy stuff used due to the fact none of the money makes it back to the original creators? (besides the cost of the 5-30 copies the rental places buy that get passed between 50-100+ people)
 
I think piracy is wrong (even though I've partaken in it myself, so I'm no angel), but it's not that big of a problem in comparison to everything else. One executive felt that the police should worry more about people stealing their music, rather than concentrate on stopping bank robbers, which is ludicrous.

Also, the big companies are trying to stop piracy in the wrong way. Suing people, stuffing crap like rootkits into CDs, and all of the crazy DRM is just pissing people off, driving them to pirate stuff even more. Hell, a lot of digital pirated shows come in better quality than their for sale counterparts, so why would someone bother to pay for an inferior product?

The big time companies need to wake up and smell the coffee. The way people view digital content is completely different than the way they see it. Most of the youth today don't think twice about pirating something. So the companies need to think outside the box to monetize their properties. They need to think and react quickly to the market, which is something they aren't doing. No big surprise since Big Content is always that way.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I thought that was fair use? If not, forgive my ignorance on this complex and arcane topic.[/quote]

I'm sure some of what I listed would come under the umbrella of "Fair Use" if challenged but it is such an amorphous concept you really have to apply the facts to each specific case to determine whether it's fair use. There is a balancing test with a bunch of factors to consider and it's not that clear.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']
Why skip it when I don't have to? It's possible for me to check everything I want out without hurting a soul. I don't give a shit about supposed "ethics" especially when they are being pushed by the stupid assholes who get 90% of the cash and label me a thief for trying to expand my horizons beyond what's being played on the radio and not the person who's actually creating the stuff I'm listening to.
[/QUOTE]

What can I say. You have no ethical issues with it. I do. It's all rationalizations for an illegal act. If you're ok with breaking copyright laws, that's fine. Just don't offer up a bunch of excuses for why it's "ok."


[quote name='javeryh']I'm sure some of what I listed would come under the umbrella of "Fair Use" if challenged but it is such an amorphous concept you really have to apply the facts to each specific case to determine whether it's fair use. There is a balancing test with a bunch of factors to consider and it's not that clear.[/QUOTE]

It's really not amorphous at all. Anything that you don't have to crack copy protection to make a copy of, rip into MP3s etc. is perfectly legal to make copies/MP3s of for yourself. It's only a problem if you share said copies with other people.

DVDs aren't legal to back up as you have to crack the encryption to make a copy or to rip them. CDs mostly don't have anything like that, as studios are ok with people putting an album they bought on their iPod or burning a CD-R for the car. For now anyway.

It's pretty simple. Games and movies--buy them and don't copy them or rip them. Albums--buy the CD or Digital Album, make all the copies you want for yourself, rip to MP3s etc.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']

Anyway, I do pirate. Do I think it's a problem? Not really. I think that in today's world, most artists/developers expect a certain percentage of their product to be pirated. I think that if games/music were more moderately priced, it would be much easier for me to buy them. It costs about a nickel to press a CD, yet they're sold for $15. I think that if they dropped that price down to about 5 dollars, they wouldn't make as much on each CD, but they'd sell much more copies. Hell, if I could pick up the new Disturbed album for 5 bucks, I'd buy it. Also, $60 for a 360 game? How do you expect a teenager to pay for games like that? Again, if they dropped the prices, they'd sell more copies.

I'm not saying piracy is right, as it's not, and I'm not justifying my actions. But with some things being so expensive, it's either I buy it, or pirate it. And if I pirate a game, it usually means I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. (I do buy some games, GOOD ones. I'd pick up another copies of Lumines in a second.) Anyway, if I see that piracy is starting to become a MAJOR problem, I'd probably cut back. But as I said before, piracy isn't using up any resources, or costing companies money, so I don't see that happening.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do break into houses. Do I think it's a problem? Not really. In today's world I think people realized that someone breaking into their house is a possibility. I think if the price of living was lower, it would be much easier for me to get a real job and no do this. It costs about $500 dollars for a TV and someone people are making $100,000 per year, so it's not like I'm bankrupting them. I think if the cost of gas was $2 a gallon and my rent was only $400 a month, then I could probably pay those thing with my gas station job, but how can I, as a young adult afford that. Again, if things were just cheaper, I wouldn't have to steal a car stereo or DVD player to buy groceries.

I'm not saying it's right, it's not. But with things being so expensive, it's either I budget better or I steal some jewelry and pawn it for extra cash. I mean, if things were cheaper in the first place, then I'd buy them. Anyway, if I see that breaking and entering is starting to become a MAJOR problem, I'd probably cut back. But as I said before, burglary isn't hurting most people, and it doesn't cost that much money to replace a stereo, so I don't see that happening.
 
I tried hard to think of a way to compare this to polygamy, but it's either too early in the morning or impossible.

So let me just go ahead and throw two observations out:

1 - The other day I bought my first album off Zune Marketplace (Wanted to support the new band Black Tide after playing their song on Rock Band), after inadvertently copying it to my portable hard drive to play with my car deck and having it not work because of DRM, it will be my last.

2- The music and movie industry have to grow up and get a method for managed copy working as a standard with all new formats asap. I have little sympathy for their piracy woes until they do.
 
Here are my justifications of "piracy" that I engage in:

  • I already own the item.
  • I want to preview or demo the item with the intention of purchasing.
  • The item is not available for purchase here in the US or for import, i.e. something that has a limited release in Japan, although this is very rare.
  • This falls in line with "I already own the item", but downloading an item to break DRM.
The only really gray area for me is the second point I mentioned, as there is no legal justification for doing so. Ethically, I have no qualms with it considering that if my "demoing" justifies continued use, I will buy it. It is likely that not doing so, I would have never purchased the product in the first place, so in fact this has likely made me spend more money.

I do believe however, that downloading with no intention of purchasing is stealing. This includes excuses such as, "The item is too expensive." or, "I would not buy it anyway." If you "need" something bad enough, but can't justify spending money on it, there are usually free or cheaper alternatives to doing so and still remain legal.

However, I do believe that companies are over-reacting to piracy by placing extreme restrictions on their products that tend to punish legal consumers, while a pirate is "reward" with restriction free products. I firmly believe that some piracy could actually be reduced by lifting some restrictions. Piracy is going to exist no matter how strict a company is with their product, but when the restrictions reach the point where an honest consumer is punished is inexcusable.
 
I don't think I have ever downloaded movies or tv unless it is something not available in the US. I know that isn't really any better, but I have a huge ass legal DVD collection and very little downloaded content. Even then, when I did download something it was 99 percent unlicensed anime) and I bought it the moment it was released in the US. That being said, it has been two years since I have bothered with torrents. I don't think they are worth the hassle or potential problems, even for unlicensed anime anymore. Now, the only time I see anything without buying it is the odd wrestling match on youtube or something like that. I enjoy downloading over Xbox Live a lot and have downloaded quite a few things from their service.
 
I know that piracy is theft but it's hard to feel guilty. I've never profitted off of it. I've never downloaded and kept a full album. I never keep any of the movies I download. If I didn't pirate, there's a 99% chance I wouldn't get it anyway. Before P2P, I bought a whopping 3 albums. I've never bought/rented a movie on DVD. Because of that, I don't feel like I'm costing them any money. I'd either hear the one song off the album I like on the radio or wait until the movie hits TV. Conversely, I know some people who know how to use P2P but opt for physical content instead. If they resorted to P2P, then they would definitely hurt the music/movie industries.

The interesting thing about the battle is that there's no middleground. Publishers and distributors are willing to fiscally rape a customer until they bleed. Most pirates aren't willing to pay a penny for their content because they're natural theieves or could do without. I think that publishers could reach the remaining pirates who do it just because it's so cost-ineffective if they made prices more realistic. However, that's NEVER going to happen and instead they'll more than likely end up as always coming second behind digital distributors.
 
I think price plays into it.

I remember when the movie Chicago came out on DVD.

You could buy the DVD for $16 which included every musical number in full. Or you could buy the CD with just the music for $18.

That's ridiculous. People aren't going to pay it when mortgage/food/oil prices are skyrocketing. So all this BS about lost sales is just that - BS. With no internet, those people would be tape bootlegging and listening to the radio.
 
I occasionaly download music/games/movies. It's wrong. I'm breaking the law. If I get caught I will be sad, if not, I will continue. That's how I look at it.
 
Piracy is not always a detrimental thing to the artists or creators. There have been many times that I have downloaded an album from an Artist, just because it was the new thing, or I thought it looked interesting. If I had to play money for that CD, I never would have listened to them. However, since I did, I may have discovered I like them, this may cause me to buy Band T-shirts, Concert Tickets, I recommend them to my friends, who then may go out and buy the CD, and then they might recommend it to their friends.

There have been several series of games that I never would have bought, but I downloaded it and discovered I liked it, this would then cause me to consider buying the sequels, or other games by the same developer.

See there is a real progression there, ultimately what artists want are fans of their work. Fans can be obtained even if half of their listeners never bought their CD's or games.

Also, if there is work that I truly find outstanding, I do go and buy it.
 
I pirate, but I normally do only TV shows that aren't on DVD, TV Pilots that were never shown, or to watch something before I buy it, like I just did with the new Futurama.

I also downloaded two games, but I have the expansion packs and just have no clue where the original game CDs went, so I don't even see that as wrong.
 
[quote name='Koggit']I see what you're trying to say, but I don't think you said it quite right.

If you pirate 100 albums, the creator(s) is missing 100 albums worth of royalties (there are other forms of creator compensation but royalties make this discussion easiest). If you physically steal 100 albums, the creator & company get their royalties but the retailer you stole from loses however much they paid for those 100 albums.

This is why I stated in the OP that I don't think piracy is as bad as physical theft, but the difference is certainly not all that large. It's just a matter of who's feeling the pain.



It costs my dad about $5 to plant, grow & harvest a ton of sugar cane, yet you pay nearly that much for a pound at the store. You don't buy sugar because it's too overpriced, I assume? The same goes for pretty much any industry.

There's a lot more to the cost of a product than you're considering. A lot of people have to be paid along the way. I read an article recently about how record companies are finding corners to cut because they needed to reduce the wholesale price of their CDs from $12 to under $10, or else WalMart was going to stop selling their product (which was a large portion of their sales). The record companies' margins are a lot lower than many other industries (movies, for example). They can't just lower the price, it's not that easy.



I'm not sure where to begin.

1. Teenagers found a way to pay for NES games $50 each 15+ years ago when $50 was equivalent to about $90 today, so I'm pretty sure teenagers today don't have it so bad here in 2008 with $60 MSRPs -- and if they do, they can wait nine months and get it for half that.

2. I assure you their marketing departments have assessed the sweet spot in pricing for maximizing sales and profit. That's their job. If they could drop the price by $10 and make up for the loss through increased sales, that's exactly what they'd do. But I'm sure you know better than their team of market experts.

3. $5 for an album is not feasible (Google if you have doubts, I won't explain it here).



You say you're not justifying your actions, and then try to say your piracy is not hurting anything? :roll:[/quote]

I realize that piracy is pretty close to physical theft, but it's not. Hence the reason we have two different terms. That's all I was saying.

Also, I do buy sugar. Why? Because I can't download it. Now, if there was some way where I could steal sugar, but there was a 95% chance I wouldn't get caught, I might do it.

Also, yes, teenagers bought games in the past, but that doesn't mean they still weren't freaking expensive. I have two choices: pay for the game, and go without food for a week, or download the game and have spending money. (And not only is downloading the game cheaper, it's easier too.)

Look, I'm not justifying my actions. I know they're wrong, but I do it anyway. It's easier and cheaper for me to do it. If I HAD to buy games, would I do it? Yeah, I used to buy games all the time before I discovered the internet, but not anymore. As long as these things are easily obtainable for me, I'll download them.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']if there was some way where I could steal sugar, but there was a 95% chance I wouldn't get caught, I might do it.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm convinced there's no debate to be had. This is a matter of ethical differences between us as people.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']
Look, I'm not justifying my actions. I know they're wrong, but I do it anyway. It's easier and cheaper for me to do it. If I HAD to buy games, would I do it? Yeah, I used to buy games all the time before I discovered the internet, but not anymore. As long as these things are easily obtainable for me, I'll download them.[/QUOTE]

At least you admit it. Like I said, it's not like piracy is robbery or rape or something.

It's a crime, and I don't have a lot of respect for people who do it. But I at least have a tad bit more respect for people who say it like you do rather than people who make a bunch of bullshit excuses for why it's ok to pirate stuff.
 
I pirate music all the time. I don't care. I've actually bought more music and gone to more concerts now that I've started using Waffles/What. Because of torrent sites like OiNK (RIP), Waffles, What, I have been introduce to many new artists and bands and support more of them now than I ever have.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Well, I'm convinced there's no debate to be had. This is a matter of ethical differences between us as people.[/quote]

That's what this whole argument is about, morals. I have morals, just not the ones that keep me from downloading music. Am I glad I don't have these morals? Of course not. If I had the choice, I'd go back and stop me from ever pirating. But, now that I've started, I just can't stop.
 
Damn I wish i could join in this topic.

Wrote up a whole long posting then remembered my username is a concatenation of first initial last name.

I think piracy is something to be regulated but I don't believe it's a big issue and I think most if not all of the regulaiton should come from the individual.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']
Also, I do buy sugar. Why? Because I can't download it. Now, if there was some way where I could steal sugar, but there was a 95% chance I wouldn't get caught, I might do it.
[/quote]

Isn't this what elderly ladies are notorious for doing? :lol:
 
[quote name='lbradeen']I think piracy is something to be regulated but I don't believe it's a big issue and I think most if not all of the regulaiton should come from the individual.[/quote]

Most people would feel differently if it were their creations being pirated though.

Times are changing. You can see free legal music videos on Youtube, Yahoo Music and other sites (often with ad revenue going to labels), you can hear most songs for free on the radio, and you can even check out music CDs and DVDs for free at most libraries. That really isn't any different from pirating except for one thing...torrents make millions of free copies available to everyone unlike a handful at a library.
 
Right now the only things that I pirate are music and TV shows. I used to download more movies and some PC games/software, but now I've rented a lot of movies free/cheaply, so I don't really need to download them (I deleted them after I watched them anyway), and I don't play many games on the PC. I only download the TV shows because I missed them or something and then delete them after I watch them. I'll probably be doing that less as they start streaming more TV shows. The quality is a lot better on the torrents though....

My biggest piracy addiction is music (which is probably how it is with most people). I don't even have a huge collection of it like some I've heard (something around 11GB, maybe 500 MB or so legal), but it's still a lot of music. I've started buying some of it and plan on buying more, but it's just so damn hard to buy music you already have just because you think you should, lol, especially when you know that you could use that money towards something you don't have and can't download for free. I mostly want to support the smaller bands anyway and I'm not too concerned about the larger labels, from which I don't have a lot of music anyway, so they'll probably come last in my line of buying CDs, but I'll buy CDs when I can get them for $10 or so. There's some music I have that I know I'll never buy though, since I don't really like it that much and barely listen to it anyway, it just sits on my hard drive.

But anyway, aside from me personally I don't think that pirating has really damaged the industries. I think a lot of the people who download shit wouldn't have bought it if they couldn't download it free. It's probably worst on the smaller people, so I'll put more shame on people dling stuff from small record labels (like me), games from small developers, etc. since they need the money more, so if you like something you've downloaded from them you should definitely buy it when you have the money.
 
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