Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims

I've not been following this story too closely, because, honestly, I don't really care one way or another (I can see why some people are offended, I think the majority of the "offended" are being, as Myke put it, bigots and I do agree that they should have the right to build)... but is it true the dedication date is set to be September 11th?
 
September 11 was a bad day for Muslims in this country too. Not only was our country attacked but they got demoted to somewhere around Mexican/Black during Jim Crow status.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Never question the president Knoell, it emboldens the enemy.[/QUOTE]

Think of it this way. I notice a fire building in the corner of a movie theatre, and noone else seems to notice. I should probably tell everyone, but I should also make a concious decision and weigh the consequences of my action. If I yell "theres a fire!!" and people trample each other trying to get out, I probably should have done things differently. I probably should think out responsibly what I should do, and what will have the minimum negative effect on the people in the theatre.

The same goes for the guy building the mosque, it may be beyond his ability to change now, but before he decided to build the mosque he should have conciously thought out the effects building the mosque in that area would have on various groups of people. He was obviously aware of the buildings history, because he chose it to symbolize something, and he has every right to do so.

Now if he said "I want to build a Mosque and Community Center in NYC that symbolizes the peacefulness of my faith, to make people not think of Islam as the cause of 9/11. Let me research what would be an appropriate area to service the community, and show people what my religion is really about." I don't think there would be a controversy, and what is he losing? The fact that it isn't built from a destroyed part in 9/11? Is that really what is important in his mission? That it be built in that spot?

Now this is where I say he should have thought about the consequences of his decision, and made the decision of what was truely important rather than it residing in a controversial spot. The Federal Government shouldn't stop him, he has every right to do this, however that does not mean people can't be mad about it, and that doesn't mean he isn't a jerk for doing it.
 
Where else is he going to put it though? It's not like Manhattan real estate is super cheap and you can just buy wherever you want. It's NIMBY with a touch of bigotry plain and simple.
 
Knoell, Muslims can't separate themselves from traits ascribed to them by bigots who use 9/11 as an excuse if they're not willing to confront it. When they do it's going to be "controversial," it's unavoidable. Many of the same people upset about this mosque are upset about any mosque anywhere and they've made this painfully obvious (not lumping you into that), their manufactured "controversies" over random shit make it clear they don't want a dialogue and they don't intend to use logic, they just don't like Muslims. I think the point this guy is trying to make with this mosque is that Muslims didn't destroy the towers, terrorists did, and Muslims can (and should be allowed to) live and worship peacefully in New York where it happened, where they've been all along anyway. There's no reason this space should be off limits to them as they didn't have anything to do with it. People oppose this because they lump everyday Muslims in with terrorists and don't think or don't care about the fact that there's a difference.

I imagine when they finish this it will have been a decade since 9/11 and really the only thing anybody should be offended about is that ground zero will probably still be a pile of dirt. I don't know how many decades you think should pass before Muslims can build mosques anywhere near there without it being offensive.
 
Knoell wrote:
Because those whackjobs have proven to be dangerous, and you fail to realize the power of the symbolism that they could pull from this. Granted that is not this guys problem, but he should weigh the consequences of his actions, and figure out if building the mosque a few blocks away to an area not hindered by 9/11 would really hinder the peace and community support brought by it.

Wait, the terrorists have proven to be dangerous? Oh, do tell! So anytime an action is taken, we should all think about what fringe groups of whackos will take from it? Fine, I'll start protesting any establishment that has the word bomb in it, at risk of offending WWII era Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those douchy business owners.

Your simplistic view of what islamic extremists fight for is, well, simplistic. They fight for many reasons, not just getting our military out of their holy land.


I think you should probably call up the FBI since you've apparently got the psychological profile of the islamic extremists. They would appreciate your insight. Just think YOU could save lives by speaking out on the terrorist's Ground Zero Mosque, and by helping law enforcement create the ideal terrorist profile. You're a patriot!

Your guess as to why the nutjobs are killing people is just as good as mine. I'd even go so far as to say it varies a bit from whacko to whacko. Nevermind, who am I kidding, they hate us for our freedom.

If you believe this then you have no right to judge the effects a symbol will have.

No right to judge? And because I think your opinion is ridiculous, you do have a right to judge? Your argument has been a sinking ship for pages. You've failed to explain your hypocritical views beyond saying the bad guys who want to build a mosque are "douchy".
 
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Gregg Gutfeld Says He Plans to Open Gay Bar Next to Mosque
Source


"I'm announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space. This is not a joke. I've already spoken to a number of investors, who have pledged their support in this bipartisan bid for understanding and tolerance."

Gutfeld said his reasoning for opening the gay bar is twofold: first, to break down barriers of homosexual phobia, as the Muslim faith does not accept the homosexual lifestyle. And second, to make a point that if Muslim's are truly building the mosque for outreach, then they can understand why he is opening up his gay bar to reach out to Muslim gay men.

He will even have a whole floor that will serve non-alcoholic drinks because the faith prohibits drinking as well. And the bar will be open day and night, so those Muslim men who wish to remain inconspicuous can.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Gregg Gutfeld Says He Plans to Open Gay Bar Next to Mosque
Source[/QUOTE]

The crazy part is that this guy is going to blow (no pun intended) a ton of money on this project, and it's going to be a non-issue.

It's kind of like the Arrested Development episode where Michael gets set up by GOB to date this ugly chick, then to be nice Michael compliments the girl even though he's not remotely attracted to her. GOB sees this and decides to sleep with her thinking he's stealing away Michael's girl.

This Gutfeld fella thinks he's really rubbing it in the face of the Cordoba guys (still no pun intended), but in reality, why would they care what gets opened around them (I desperately need to rewrite this post)? They care about their building, not somebody else's. Would a kosher deli refuse to open if a pig farm was next door?

What a waste of money. Assuming this guy is going to spend millions in an effort to annoy the COMMUNITY CENTER and mosque crowd, it seems like they'd get better PR if they donated the money they raise to some charity.
 
I wish they would just come out and speak the truth.

The First Amendment protects freedom of religion but only mine and fuck those people for thinking they are on the same level as me.
 
[quote name='berzirk']The crazy part is that this guy is going to blow (no pun intended) a ton of money on this project, and it's going to be a non-issue.

It's kind of like the Arrested Development episode where Michael gets set up by GOB to date this ugly chick, then to be nice Michael compliments the girl even though he's not remotely attracted to her. GOB sees this and decides to sleep with her thinking he's stealing away Michael's girl.

This Gutfeld fella thinks he's really rubbing it in the face of the Cordoba guys (still no pun intended), but in reality, why would they care what gets opened around them (I desperately need to rewrite this post)? They care about their building, not somebody else's. Would a kosher deli refuse to open if a pig farm was next door?

What a waste of money. Assuming this guy is going to spend millions in an effort to annoy the COMMUNITY CENTER and mosque crowd, it seems like they'd get better PR if they donated the money they raise to some charity.[/QUOTE]

Lol, You even got the point of this wrong.
 
Question: would anyone think it'd be insensitive to open a Gun and Ammo store a few blocks away from Columbine High School?

[quote name='berzirk']The crazy part is that this guy is going to blow (no pun intended) a ton of money on this project, and it's going to be a non-issue. [/QUOTE]

Actually, I wonder how much money this guy will end up making off of people going to the bar in "protest". ;)
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Question: would anyone think it'd be insensitive to open a Gun and Ammo store a few blocks away from Columbine High School?[/QUOTE]

Nope. Because I'm smart enough to know that it doesn't matter where the shit is. If people want to go crazy and shoot people up, they'll find the ammo and guns.

Besides, everyone knows gun shows are the easiest place to pick up automatic weapons...
 
There's a strip club less than 500' from the proposed Mosque site. I kept seeing the Burlington Coat Factory come up in this thread instead which made me wonder what I'm missing by not shopping there...
 
[quote name='Beorach']There's a strip club less than 500' from the proposed Mosque site. I kept seeing the Burlington Coat Factory come up in this thread instead which made me wonder what I'm missing by not shopping there...[/QUOTE]

If you're a big fan of Affliction tees, failed Ipod accessories, and huge shiny watches then you're missing alot.

To be honest I was able to pick up a cheap tuxedo vest for a Haloween costume. So it does have its uses.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Lol, You even got the point of this wrong.[/QUOTE]

Oh darn, you don't approve of my commentary. Didn't know that was a prerequisite for posting. I'll be sure to PM you with what I plan on writing next time so I can get your signoff on it first. My apologies infid...buddy.
 
SarahPalinUSA Dr.Laura=even more powerful & effective w/out the shackles, so watch out Constitutional obstructionists. And b thankful 4 her voice,America!

SarahPalinUSA Dr.Laura:don't retreat...reload! (Steps aside bc her 1st Amend.rights ceased 2exist thx 2activists trying 2silence"isn't American,not fair")
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Building a house of worship and community center two blocks away from a horrible act they had nothing to do with. No! Why would you reopen the wounds of the people who lost family members?

Saying n.i.g.ger over and over on the radio and looking for a racial fight. A-ok! Fight the good fight, Dr. Laura, and don't get NAACP'd. Haven't you activists heard of the first amendment? Free speech ring a bell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob6Ed69w548&feature=related
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Building a house of worship and community center two blocks away from a horrible act they had nothing to do with. No! Why would you reopen the wounds of the people who lost family members?

Saying n.i.g.ger over and over on the radio and looking for a racial fight. A-ok! Fight the good fight, Dr. Laura, and don't get NAACP'd. Haven't you activists heard of the first amendment? Free speech ring a bell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob6Ed69w548&feature=related
[/QUOTE]

The problem with your analogy is that she has every right to say it. Is she a jackass for saying it? Of course. Did she fail to make the decision that would have the least negative impact on her listeners? Of Course. She still had the right to free speech.

Same thing goes for the Mosque, He has every right to build it there. Did he fail to make the best decision that has the least negative impact on people? Of Course. He still has the right to freedom of religion. Is he a douchebag for building it there? Of Course. (imo)
 
Someone should try to build an actual mosque down there and not a community center that also has a prayer room.

To correct Bob's analogy, it would be like building a Walmart next to a school but referring to it as a gun store because they sell(sold?) ammo.
 
Dr. Laura quit *and* is making some claim that she did so in order to maintain her first amendment rights, which is a fallacious argument (as you point out, she has every right to say it, on or off the air).

The thing you don't seem to get is that you're holding a faith to another standard. You think it's foolish? Don't go there. Just like the Muslims who won't be going to Greg Gutfield's never-gonna-happen gay club, and just like they probably won't be going to any titty bars, either. You don't seem to get that it's nunya business if you don't want it there. You want every action of every Muslim to be reactively apologetic and done as a response to 9/11. As someone who was raised Catholic, you wouldn't ask me to atone for all the kid-fucking Catholic priests have engaged in, yes? That's a preposterous thing to ask of me.

You have a problem because you can't separate the entirety of a faith from the actions of its most insane, fringe members. I know not all Catholics are kid fuckers or inquisitors, and don't treat them as if they were. You and yours are the ones who are told you are intolerant because you have taken the actions of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a religion and taken that to stand for the entirety of the faith itself. You default into distrust, fear, hatred, and intolerance, given no real reason to be that way in the first place.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Dr. Laura quit *and* is making some claim that she did so in order to maintain her first amendment rights, which is a fallacious argument (as you point out, she has every right to say it, on or off the air).

The thing you don't seem to get is that you're holding a faith to another standard. You think it's foolish? Don't go there. Just like the Muslims who won't be going to Greg Gutfield's never-gonna-happen gay club, and just like they probably won't be going to any titty bars, either. You don't seem to get that it's nunya business if you don't want it there. You want every action of every Muslim to be reactively apologetic and done as a response to 9/11. As someone who was raised Catholic, you wouldn't ask me to atone for all the kid-fucking Catholic priests have engaged in, yes? That's a preposterous thing to ask of me.

You have a problem because you can't separate the entirety of a faith from the actions of its most insane, fringe members. I know not all Catholics are kid fuckers or inquisitors, and don't treat them as if they were. You and yours are the ones who are told you are intolerant because you have taken the actions of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a religion and taken that to stand for the entirety of the faith itself. You default into distrust, fear, hatred, and intolerance, given no real reason to be that way in the first place.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if the Catholic Church found out that a number of the victims from those priests were living near each other in a one block radius and decided to show these kids what the real Catholic Church was about, and they decided to build a $100,000,000 dollar church/community center two blocks from them.

Does the Catholic Church have a right to if they have the property rights and zoning permits? Yup.
Are they insensitive douchebags for doing it? Yup.

I'll get back to you when I figure out where I condemned the entire religion to terrorism.
 
Ugh....this only has a negative impact on people who can't seperate a bunch of crazies on planes from a larger people. Those dumbasses can go fuck themselves as far as I'm concerned. If I wanted to I could vilify plenty of groups of people all because one of them wronged me, but I know that would be really fucking stupid.

edit- Are those who can't separate a small group of people from a larger one dumbasses? Yup.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I'll get back to you when I figure out where I condemned the entire religion to terrorism.[/QUOTE]

You want the people building it to capitulate to the demands of people who are not members of the faith, whose attitudes toward the mosque are premised on the idea that it's "insensitive" to build it there.

It's only insensitive if you view the entirety of the faith as linked to terrorism. The moment you realize that victims were muslims, people who worked and died in the WTC were muslims, police officers (at least one) who died in the response were muslims, then you have to disassociate the faith of Islam from the 9/11 attacks. And when you do that, you have no sensible ground to stand on in claiming that it is insensitive.

Your entire argument is a false premise, logically speaking.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The problem with your analogy is that she has every right to say it. Is she a jackass for saying it? Of course. Did she fail to make the decision that would have the least negative impact on her listeners? Of Course. She still had the right to free speech.

Same thing goes for the Mosque, He has every right to build it there. Did he fail to make the best decision that has the least negative impact on people? Of Course. He still has the right to freedom of religion. Is he a douchebag for building it there? Of Course. (imo)[/QUOTE]

It's not an analogy.

Sarah Palin (and the right) have been saying that the Cordoba Initiative has no right to build their building where they want, that it is insensitive to the people who lost family members during 9/11 and that they picked the location to hurt and show Islam's power. Basically, they want to deny them their first amendment rights.

Just a few days later, they come out to champion Dr. Laura, a person who said n.ig.ger multiple times on the radio unprovoked along with the gem of "don't try to NAACP me" when the actual black women she was ranting at got offended, hailing her as a free speech hero. Telling people to stop being so sensitive and that her speech is protected under the first amendment.

Just pointing out the horrible hypocrisy and horribly flawed thought process (or I guess you could say lack of empathy)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You want the people building it to capitulate to the demands of people who are not members of the faith, whose attitudes toward the mosque are premised on the idea that it's "insensitive" to build it there.

It's only insensitive if you view the entirety of the faith as linked to terrorism. The moment you realize that victims were muslims, people who worked and died in the WTC were muslims, police officers (at least one) who died in the response were muslims, then you have to disassociate the faith of Islam from the 9/11 attacks. And when you do that, you have no sensible ground to stand on in claiming that it is insensitive.

Your entire argument is a false premise, logically speaking.[/QUOTE]

They should name the center after the police officer. Probably wouldn't change any minds or hearts, but I'd give that a thumbs up.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Sarah Palin (and the right) have been saying that the Cordoba Initiative has no right to build their building where they want, that it is insensitive to the people who lost family members during 9/11 and that they picked the location to hurt and show Islam's power. Basically, they want to deny them their first amendment rights.[/QUOTE]

Howard Dean is considered right wing now?
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0810/Howard_Dean_Mosque_an_affront.html?showall
 
Ted Olson, the arch conservative lawyer (who's recently known as that conservative guy helping the gays with Prop 8) came out in favor of allowing the mosque to be built.

His wife was on the plane that flew into the Pentagon.

"Well it may not make me hap-- popular with some people, but I think probably the president was right about this," Olson responded. "I do believe that people of all religions have a right to build edifices, or structures, or places of religious worship or study, where the community allows them to do it under zoning laws and that sort of thing, and that we don't want to turn an act of hate against us by extremists into an act of intolerance for people of religious faith. And I don't think it should be a political issue. It shouldn't be a Republican or Democratic issue, either. I believe Gov. Christie from New Jersey said it well -- that this should not be in that political, partisan marketplace."
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As much as you guys want to broadly paint this as a religious issue alone, the truth is that it isn't. If it was the dude building the Mosque would accept the offer for state land elsewhere. If it was, he wouldn't have gone around on our dime and solicited money from several Arab nations to build a mosque in NYC.

Where does somebody pool up 100 million dollars exactly in this current economy? Why is it even being spent on a mosque that can be built 10 times cheaper and better elsewhere? This mosque is just a symbol of vanity and it really is disgusting to see people honestly just jump on the bandwagon that this is. It's about rubbing salt into as many wounds as possible, not about making things right or promoting Islam in a positive manner.
 
[quote name='Mad39er']As much as you guys want to broadly paint this as a religious issue alone[/quote]
I think you've unintentionally hit the nail on the head. It's definitely NOT a religious issue alone. It's a property issue. Even softcore libertarians are pretty grossed out at the thought of land use being an issue like this. The "freedom" crowd should be horrified by the idea that someone shouldn't be able to build what they want where they want. The religious (of all stripes) should hate something like this because it's a precedent.

OMG THERES A GUN SHOP WITHIN A MILE AND CHANGE OF COLUMBINE. TOO CLOSE TOO SOON.

the truth is that it isn't. If it was the dude building the Mosque would accept the offer for state land elsewhere.
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Giving state land to a religious organization? no no no No NO NO NO.
If it was, he wouldn't have gone around on our dime and solicited money from several Arab nations to build a mosque in NYC.
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Two presidents from both parties asked him to go. It's disingenuous to shit on that after the fact. And it's a just a plain shit way to describe the man. The goddamn FBI also asked him to do it and report back, which he apparently did. This guy put his neck out for us and why? Because he's a damned American.
Where does somebody pool up 100 million dollars exactly in this current economy?
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Religious financing should be nobody's concern but their own unless it's being used to promote a crime.
Why is it even being spent on a mosque that can be built 10 times cheaper and better elsewhere? This mosque is just a symbol of vanity and it really is disgusting to see people honestly just jump on the bandwagon that this is. It's about rubbing salt into as many wounds as possible, not about making things right or promoting Islam in a positive manner.
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You have every right to that opinion and no one's trying to take that away. But people disagree with your opinion, and your opinion should about this being a good idea or not should not change the rules we all have to play by.

Just sayin.
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']Did he have a c...oh, forget it.[/QUOTE]

Yes, yes he is.

Rush and him have been pointing out Pelosi's desire to investigate the opposition to the mosque.

There isn't a need to investigate them.

Some people were traumatized on 9/11. They'll equate any muslim with the 9/11 terrorists. It isn't logical, but the American education system doesn't make people logical.
 
What if the following religious groups proposed building a community center and place of worship two blocks from your home. Would you favor or oppose it?

Jewish:
Favor: 73%
Oppose: 18%
No answer/Don't know: 9%

Catholic:
Favor: 78%
Oppose: 14%
No answer/Don't know: 9%

Muslim:
Favor: 55%
Oppose: 34%
No answer/Don't know: 10%

Mormon:
Favor: 65%
Oppose: 24%
No answer/Don't know: 11%
 
Possible solutions/outcomes:

1) Mosque concedes lack of sensitivity and moves a few blocks farther away. The issue is dropped.
2) Mosque turns into a multi faith community center where all religions pray. Funding pulls out and it isn't built.
3) Mosque is built and Islamic fanaticals will think of it as a victory, normal muslims don't, and the US is still split, causing more of the division its been propagating, until it is put out of mind by mainstream america ~6 months from now.

Are there any more? Seriously.


P.S. This isn't about legality (thanks O). Its about right and wrong. Similarly, a person can go into a public library and look at porn. Thats legal, but it doesn't make it right. It shouldn't happen there because of the sensitivity of others. That's the best analogy I can give which I think a lot of you will understand. No one wants to take away rights.
 
[quote name='speedracer']What if the following religious groups proposed building a community center and place of worship two blocks from your home. Would you favor or oppose it?

Jewish:
Favor: 73%
Oppose: 18%
No answer/Don't know: 9%

Catholic:
Favor: 78%
Oppose: 14%
No answer/Don't know: 9%

Muslim:
Favor: 55%
Oppose: 34%
No answer/Don't know: 10%

Mormon:
Favor: 65%
Oppose: 24%
No answer/Don't know: 11%[/QUOTE]

Please tell me you do not honestly think simple bigotry is the reason for this?

wheres the link?
 
[quote name='tivo']Possible solutions/outcomes:

1) Mosque concedes lack of sensitivity and moves a few blocks farther away. The issue is dropped.
2) Mosque turns into a multi faith community center where all religions pray. Funding pulls out and it isn't built.
3) Mosque is built and Islamic fanaticals will think of it as a victory, normal muslims don't, and the US is still split, causing more of the division its been propagating, until it is put out of mind by mainstream america ~6 months from now.

Are there any more? Seriously.


P.S. This isn't about legality (thanks O). Its about right and wrong. Similarly, a person can go into a public library and look at porn. Thats legal, but it doesn't make it right. It shouldn't happen there because of the sensitivity of others. That's the best analogy I can give which I think a lot of you will understand. No one wants to take away rights.[/QUOTE]

You are very wise tivo. Your analysis is well thought out and thorough.
 
[quote name='tivo']a person can go into a public library and look at porn...That's the best analogy I can give which I think a lot of you will understand.[/QUOTE]

That's because you read an economics book. It puts you above us intellectually.
 
I love how everyone thinks you can just move a mosque a few blocks away in the heart of downtown Manhattan. Real estate is so cheap down there, I can afford to throw away plans for the spot I'm working on and just move a few blocks away to another spot that may or may not have a vacancy. You guys gonna pay for the new building permits too?
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']They are going to spend 100 million on the mosque, stop acting like they don't have cash.[/QUOTE]

I've got a small bit of disposable income too. That doesn't mean that I run around filling out rent applications and pay deposits just because I can.

Who wants to waste money when they've already invested a ton of time and money into this particular location?
 
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