Proposition 8 same sex marriage ban poll

[quote name='thrustbucket']Well that's the real crux, isn't it? Those people like you, feel religion forced on them in cases like this. Those that are religious, feel people like you and your views forced on them.
Not a real cut and dry situation in that regard.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm actually it kind of us. Because we aint forcing shit on them. We dont try to take their rights or even generally demand that we should be married in their church. Most people dont even call to tax churches......so how again is it that our views are forced on them? Ya they may feel they are but that doesnt make it true, on the non religious peoples side of things as prop 8 shows THEY are trying to force theirs.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Well that's the real crux, isn't it? Those people like you, feel religion forced on them in cases like this. Those that are religious, feel people like you and your views forced on them.
Not a real cut and dry situation in that regard.[/QUOTE]

I don't agree with this assessment. My opinion is this: People who want to have a gay marriage, should by law, be allowed to be married. If people's church don't want to allow them to be married, their church should not allow the marriage IN THAT CHURCH.

I'm not forcing my view upon anyone. Under my position, both parties can have their own way. Under the ban, only one side imposes their view on everyone.
 
[quote name='stonefry']To get back on topic, marriage is to be between a man and a woman. It is defined in Genesis, chapter two. Man didn't create marriage, God did. He defined it, and I don't believe we should change it.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that arguing with someone who honestly believes this is not going to resolve anything. I'm kind of jealous in a way because I waste a lot of time thinking about the world around me and how to react to it and where I fit in - it must be nice to have a strategy guide.
 
[quote name='lordwow']I don't agree with this assessment. My opinion is this: People who want to have a gay marriage, should by law, be allowed to be married. If people's church don't want to allow them to be married, their church should not allow the marriage IN THAT CHURCH.

I'm not forcing my view upon anyone. Under my position, both parties can have their own way. Under the ban, only one side imposes their view on everyone.[/QUOTE]

And, as you've seen, the other sides argument is that marriage has historically factual origins in religion. It's a religious institution. You can't get around that. You can say the modern interpretation of it isn't, or whatever. But that's why marriage exists today - religion.

So getting upset that the religious have a beef with a religious institution that HAPPENS to be (wrongly) recognized by the state, is a bit ironic.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Exactly I always love this stance. Whenever I took philosophy a few years back we had religious questions that were brought up. There was 1 chick in the class who just absolutely even as an educational practice refused to question religion and pretty much insisted we would all burn in hell. You should have seen the look on her face when I turned to her and said "Ya, well what if your God is just being tested by a greater God". "For making people burn in hell for stuff as stupid as questioning him he will have failed his test as he said we failed ours". "Now me and my kind are in good with the real God for standing by justice and righteousness even when an evil God and his moronic followers tortured us"

Completely freaking shut her up for the rest of the semester. If there is a God and he is a Just God he would be happy we use the critical thinking skills he gave us.[/quote]

That's the thing about religion (Abrahamic ones anyway), questioning it implies damnation. That is a great motivator and incentive for people not to do so. I'm not going to claim I know anything about our existence, but I'd have to believe it is more than what we have been taught in religion of any kind.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Wow you really are an ignorant little asshat huh? Hey I will say this and leave it at this. You live by a book of lies, I live by a set of principles. So yes I have thought about it and you know, I would take damnation any day over being a little tool bowing to a corrupt figure. Let your God be real it will just prove everything I have ever said is right. And no I do not believe in things every day that I know nothing about. I educate myself reading constantly, I change my views on things or at least am willing to. And In my heart there are few things I 100% believe because their are few things that can be proven to me(for instance science shows that evolution is probably true but it cant be proven in the most concrete of manners so I dont just accept it as 100% fact). One of the only things I believe in is that a life of philosophy/questioning, education and principles beats a life of accepting the word of morons, lies and refusing to ever look at things objectively as Christians do.

Have a nice day![/quote]

You seem intelligent, but you resort to name-calling. You criticize me for something which you are guilty of (relying on others to teach me what I don't understand). Stop attacking me. You don't know anything about me except for a couple of paragraphs I wrote. The only reason I got into this conversation is because I was defending something that you were attacking. Don't you have anything nice to say?

Here's what you could have said:

"I vote no on prop 8 because I believe that homosexuals should have the right to marry."

Instead we hear:

"I vote no on prop 8 because I believe that homosexuals should have the right to marry and anybody that disagrees with me is an ignorant bible thumping asshat."

Listen, I am voting yes on prop 8, but I don't want to tell others to do likewise. It is my belief and I don't feel it should be forced on others. This is my dilemma because if it passes, we will be doing just that. I may just not vote on that one.
 
[quote name='stonefry']Listen, I am voting yes on prop 8, but I don't want to tell others to do likewise. It is my belief and I don't feel it should be forced on others. This is my dilemma because if it passes, we will be doing just that. I may just not vote on that one.[/QUOTE]

Wow. What amazing fence-sitting. You Episcopal?

;)

Really, if you don't want to force your beliefs on others, why did you vote to approve the codification of rendering homosexuals to second-class citizen status? Sounds to me like you should have voted no on issue 8, and then thought to yourself "well, there's a vote I'll never really get to use since I'm gonna go get me straight person married!"
 
[quote name='stonefry']
Listen, I am voting yes on prop 8, but I don't want to tell others to do likewise. It is my belief and I don't feel it should be forced on others. This is my dilemma because if it passes, we will be doing just that. I may just not vote on that one.[/QUOTE]

Eureka!
 
[quote name='stonefry']
To get back on topic, marriage is to be between a man and a woman. It is defined in Genesis, chapter two. Man didn't create marriage, God did. He defined it, and I don't believe we should change it. At the same time, it makes me really uncomfortable to see people using stupid scare tactics to force their beliefs on others. The whole thing about forcing our kids to learn about it in school and such. We know that's really bending the truth. I vote yes, and I hope others do too. I am not going to go out on the streets and try to convince others to do likewise though.[/quote]

At the risk of being flamed severely, I'd like to make one point.

Your religion holds the following to be true (for most people, there are Christians I know who are not batshit crazy) :

  • There is a magical spirit in the sky (whom you can't see) who watches you all the time. At any point if it is upset with you, it will smite the shit out of you.
  • This spirit happens to be a male, and has rules for you to follow. If you don't follow these rules (which came from the same spirit you can't see, hear, or feel), you are doomed to burn in hell.
  • Hell has never once made contact with anyone outside of it's boundaries, and will continue to not communicate with the outside world.
  • However, if you follow the invisible spirit's rules, you will be let into a place that is fantastic and happens to be in the clouds.
  • There is a book where all of this is written down, which has been re-written, redacted, and changed for thousands of years. Clearly, every word of it is truthful and historically accurate.
  • Subject matter in said book can be picked and chosen from at your own discretion. For example, even though it is commanded in this book, it is not OK to stone women to death any longer. It is written that being gay is not all right, but this rule is not subject to reversal like the latter rule of stoning women to death.
Batshit crazy FTW.
 
[quote name='stonefry']You seem intelligent, but you resort to name-calling. You criticize me for something which you are guilty of (relying on others to teach me what I don't understand). Stop attacking me. You don't know anything about me except for a couple of paragraphs I wrote. The only reason I got into this conversation is because I was defending something that you were attacking. Don't you have anything nice to say?

Here's what you could have said:

"I vote no on prop 8 because I believe that homosexuals should have the right to marry."

Instead we hear:

"I vote no on prop 8 because I believe that homosexuals should have the right to marry and anybody that disagrees with me is an ignorant bible thumping asshat."

Listen, I am voting yes on prop 8, but I don't want to tell others to do likewise. It is my belief and I don't feel it should be forced on others. This is my dilemma because if it passes, we will be doing just that. I may just not vote on that one.[/QUOTE]

So why should laws be made about what the church dictates? :whistle2:k
You DO realize that not everyone in this country is a Christian and believes in the Bible....right?

Do gays have the right to Civil Unions or should they just not allowed to be together and be given any type of legal rights at all?
 
[quote name='stonefry']You seem intelligent, but you resort to name-calling. You criticize me for something which you are guilty of (relying on others to teach me what I don't understand). Stop attacking me. You don't know anything about me except for a couple of paragraphs I wrote. The only reason I got into this conversation is because I was defending something that you were attacking. Don't you have anything nice to say?

Here's what you could have said:

"I vote no on prop 8 because I believe that homosexuals should have the right to marry."

Instead we hear:

"I vote no on prop 8 because I believe that homosexuals should have the right to marry and anybody that disagrees with me is an ignorant bible thumping asshat."

Listen, I am voting yes on prop 8, but I don't want to tell others to do likewise. It is my belief and I don't feel it should be forced on others. This is my dilemma because if it passes, we will be doing just that. I may just not vote on that one.[/QUOTE]

I know all I need to know about you from your few paragraphs. As javeryh put it there is no changing someone that says something like a direct quote from the bible that claims they are in support for something because God(aka magical sky creature)told someone years ago to right it down as wrong.

Your an extremist not a rationalist and worse while you dont attack me you wish to pretend I am the same as you. I dont claim to know the answers, I am not bigoted towards others or trying to take their rights away and I get my information from many sources not 1 source(and a disproven one at that)like you. So stop trying to pretend we are the same cause kid me and you aint nothing alike.

And as for attacks. You deserve it. Besides the fact you are trying to take others rights away. Christians tend to be the most un Christ like people around which is rather enraging.

On topic. Something that made me happy this weekend was talking to my future mother in law on this subject. She has always been a Christian but ever since her church got a new very stonefory like pastor that preaches on fire and brimstone she has changed greatly as a person. But even with her turn to the right whenever the subject of prop 8 came up she said something along the lines of "can you believe anyone would be so disgusting and biggoted to try and take others rights away". "I dont understand gay people and I dont approve of their lifestyle, but it upsets me that people claiming my faith are misrepresenting me and my God with their biggoted views".

It makes her a cherry picker like all Christians.....but atleast she is following the good tenets of the bible not the hatefull disgusting ones.
 
[quote name='nathansu']At the risk of being flamed severely, I'd like to make one point.

Your religion holds the following to be true (for most people, there are Christians I know who are not batshit crazy) :

  • There is a magical spirit in the sky (whom you can't see) who watches you all the time. At any point if it is upset with you, it will smite the shit out of you.
  • This spirit happens to be a male, and has rules for you to follow. If you don't follow these rules (which came from the same spirit you can't see, hear, or feel), you are doomed to burn in hell.
  • Hell has never once made contact with anyone outside of it's boundaries, and will continue to not communicate with the outside world.
  • However, if you follow the invisible spirit's rules, you will be let into a place that is fantastic and happens to be in the clouds.
  • There is a book where all of this is written down, which has been re-written, redacted, and changed for thousands of years. Clearly, every word of it is truthful and historically accurate.
  • Subject matter in said book can be picked and chosen from at your own discretion. For example, even though it is commanded in this book, it is not OK to stone women to death any longer. It is written that being gay is not all right, but this rule is not subject to reversal like the latter rule of stoning women to death.
Batshit crazy FTW.[/QUOTE]

Heh like I have said. It is impossible to be a Christian and not be a cherry picker.
 
[quote name='lordwow']In other words, by trying to allow anyone to marry, I'm oppressing their ability to oppress everyone else?[/QUOTE]

Basically, yes.

But with that exact same logic I can say that Harvard is oppressing me by not giving me a degree without meeting their criteria.

I'm not saying you should change our mind about gay marriage. The only argument I am trying to make is that I think the religious side of this particular argument actually carries some real weight, for once.

And even if you believe marriage should be CHANGED (which is what this is really about) to be a state originated and defined institution put up for legislative definition, you at least owe the other side the respectful acknowledgment that what you are desiring to do is CHANGE the original religiously based definition and purpose of marriage to something more in line with what you believe.

That's really it.

I actually think the arguments for both sides are very legitimate. Which is why I cringe when either side starts bashing and attacking the other. I truly feel both sides of this argument, are, in a way, right. So I guess I feel it's important that each side sort of respectflly disagree.
 
I disagree with your analogy, thrustbucket. It would be more like Harvard will not allow you to earn a degree at their institution, so they voted to ban you from getting a degree at any institution.
 
[quote name='lordwow']I disagree with your analogy, thrustbucket. It would be more like Harvard will not allow you to earn a degree at their institution, so they voted to ban you from getting a degree at any institution.[/QUOTE]
Bingo.
 
[quote name='lordwow']I disagree with your analogy, thrustbucket. It would be more like Harvard will not allow you to earn a degree at their institution, so they voted to ban you from getting a degree at any institution.[/QUOTE]

THIS.

It's be ONE thing if my local church said "LOL NO MARRIAGE, SRY" but the OTHER one around here is like "YEAH SURE, ::eek:ffers marriage::"

It'd be the same thing for you to TRY and get a degree at Harvard and them saying "LOL NO U POOR LOL" but Yale goin "YEH SURE COME GETZ DEGREE HERE LOLLMAO ::eek:ffers::"
 
[quote name='lordwow']I disagree with your analogy, thrustbucket. It would be more like Harvard will not allow you to earn a degree at their institution, so they voted to ban you from getting a degree at any institution.[/quote]

Win.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']And, as you've seen, the other sides argument is that marriage has historically factual origins in religion. It's a religious institution. You can't get around that. You can say the modern interpretation of it isn't, or whatever. But that's why marriage exists today - religion.
[/quote]If I'm not mistaken, marriage in ancient Mesopotamia was more of a legal contract than an actual religious thing. Now, granted, it was still man-woman, but hey, women were legally required to kill themselves if accused of adultery, so hey, whatever.

EDIT: Also, Lordwow, after having taken into account your unusually high amounts of win lately, my colleagues and I would like to present you with The Internet. Treat it well.
 
[quote name='lordwow']I disagree with your analogy, thrustbucket. It would be more like Harvard will not allow you to earn a degree at their institution, so they voted to ban you from getting a degree at any institution.[/QUOTE]

Wrong.

The point of the analogy is this - Harvard, like religion, is a private institution that has always dictated the criteria for handing out a degree (like religion has with marriage, when they invented it). They are allowed to do this, because they are a private organization outside of the dictates of government when it comes to who gets a degree.

So to make the analogy more valid: The government wants to tell Harvard, and all institutions, that they have to give out degrees to anyone if they ask nicely. fuck their criteria and fuck the fact that universities invented degrees. Everyone is entitled to a free degree now, because of job discrimination. Why should the University get to decide who gets one and who gets to try and earn one? That's fucking discrimination.

Hint: The REAL answer to all of the above - government recognition is bad, across the board. Having it creates situations like this that wouldn't be a situation if government were not involved.
 
Your analogy is still flawed. The government is not saying that any church has to marry anyone. They're saying any church that wants to marry two people of the same gender should be allowed to.

In other words (in your analogy), just because Harvard doesn't want to give someone a degree doesn't mean that every other college should be banned from doing so. Harvard doesn't have to give anyone a degree it doesn't want to, nor does any church. But neither should be allowed to use their criteria for acceptance upon the rest of the population.

A more apt analogy would be Harvard doesn't want to accept you, and they think that every other college should be legally mandated to use their admissions standards.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']I know all I need to know about you from your few paragraphs. As javeryh put it there is no changing someone that says something like a direct quote from the bible that claims they are in support for something because God(aka magical sky creature)told someone years ago to right it down as wrong.

Your an extremist not a rationalist and worse while you dont attack me you wish to pretend I am the same as you. I dont claim to know the answers, I am not bigoted towards others or trying to take their rights away and I get my information from many sources not 1 source(and a disproven one at that)like you. So stop trying to pretend we are the same cause kid me and you aint nothing alike.

And as for attacks. You deserve it. Besides the fact you are trying to take others rights away. Christians tend to be the most un Christ like people around which is rather enraging.

On topic. Something that made me happy this weekend was talking to my future mother in law on this subject. She has always been a Christian but ever since her church got a new very stonefory like pastor that preaches on fire and brimstone she has changed greatly as a person. But even with her turn to the right whenever the subject of prop 8 came up she said something along the lines of "can you believe anyone would be so disgusting and biggoted to try and take others rights away". "I dont understand gay people and I dont approve of their lifestyle, but it upsets me that people claiming my faith are misrepresenting me and my God with their biggoted views".

It makes her a cherry picker like all Christians.....but atleast she is following the good tenets of the bible not the hatefull disgusting ones.[/quote]

You cherry picked my arguments.
 
[quote name='lordwow']Your analogy is still flawed. The government is not saying that any church has to marry anyone. They're saying any church that wants to marry two people of the same gender should be allowed to.

In other words (in your analogy), just because Harvard doesn't want to give someone a degree doesn't mean that every other college should be banned from doing so. Harvard doesn't have to give anyone a degree it doesn't want to, nor does any church. But neither should be allowed to use their criteria for acceptance upon the rest of the population. H[/QUOTE]

Homosexuals can already go preform marriage ceremonies at any number of religions and say they are married. That's not the issue though. It's that everyone is fighting over what the government should recognize. When the real answer is "they shouldn't".
 
The real issue is that the government is allowing one group of people to do one thing (marry) and not allowing another group to do same thing. Any rational person could see this should and eventually will be found to be a violation of "separate, but equal" It won't be this year, it may not be this decade, but it will happen.
 
And I disagree that is the real issue.

The real issue is that marriage is a religious institution that managed to slip through this nations bloated, gargantuan, robust secular filter and is, at its core, an issue of separation of church and state.

It's just an issue long over looked and not cared about. Until now; because those that inherited marriage (the religious) and inserted it into our government, never had it's definition questioned until now.

You could be right though. Perhaps some day gay marriage will be nationally recognized. But that still won't change the fact that legally recognized marriage is a mixture of church and state, thus will not solve the problem for future issues (i.e. Polygamy, etc).
 
Wouldn't this amendment be unconstitutional? Would it be a law that would tell churches or people to practice their faith in a certain way? I understand that Christians really want this amendment to pass but what would stop someone from making a Proposition that says that churches have to pay taxes? Doesn't this whole thing open a can of worms that no one really wants to see.
 
[quote name='stonefry']You cherry picked my arguments.[/QUOTE]

Nah I covered every point. Wouldn't expect a Christian to understand this though since when it comes to religion you guys couldn't debate to save your soul.

And I would ignore thrust guys.....doesn't matter if everyone sees problems with it and its clearly flawed he will stick by a bad theory(see his arguing with global warming based on far right crazies)no matter what.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Nah I covered every point. Wouldn't expect a Christian to understand this though since when it comes to religion you guys couldn't debate to save your soul..[/quote]

I made a statement and you said "nuh uh."

And you don't think I can debate?
 
Does anyone else see the Yes on 8 banner ads ALL over CAG right now? I'm surprised Cheapy D would let these ads run on his site. I'm actually quite disappointed in CAG right now knowing that Cheapy D has many gay friends, yet he's supporting this measure that overturns their rights in california.
 
I still want to know how this passes the Constitutional Test. Conservatives are all about the letter of the law when it comes to the Constitution but doesn't this just turn Christian dogma into law?
 
This whole thing is stupid and Christians just use "facts" and Bible crap to make "POINTS".
I said this several times, it's just a bunch of hate, misunderstanding, and fear that's causing oppression & bigotry.

This. Is. All. It. Is.
 
[quote name='GamerChris']Does anyone else see the Yes on 8 banner ads ALL over CAG right now? I'm surprised Cheapy D would let these ads run on his site. I'm actually quite disappointed in CAG right now knowing that Cheapy D has many gay friends, yet he's supporting this measure that overturns their rights in california.[/quote]

I started a thread about this. The crazies are calling me oversensitive about it, but I find it terribly offensive.
 
[quote name='lilboo']This whole thing is stupid and Christians just use "facts" and Bible crap to make "POINTS".
I said this several times, it's just a bunch of hate, misunderstanding, and fear that's causing oppression & bigotry.

This. Is. All. It. Is.[/QUOTE]

Can we legalize wife killin'?

It's in the bible.
 
[quote name='GamerChris']Does anyone else see the Yes on 8 banner ads ALL over CAG right now? I'm surprised Cheapy D would let these ads run on his site. I'm actually quite disappointed in CAG right now knowing that Cheapy D has many gay friends, yet he's supporting this measure that overturns their rights in california.[/quote]

[quote name='nathansu']I started a thread about this. The crazies are calling me oversensitive about it, but I find it terribly offensive.[/quote]


Did you see how long it took for the "ninja" graphic to come down on this site? Granted, that isn't as important as the vote on 8, but I'm not surprised at anything.
 
[quote name='nathansu']I started a thread about this. The crazies are calling me oversensitive about it, but I find it terribly offensive.[/quote]

Just notify Cheapy and they will be removed, it's not like he sat down, looked at a checklist and said, hell ya, get those prop 8 ads on and make me monies!

I'm all against that kind crap advertising, lies and such, but I really don't like it when nothing is getting done to ever change it.


I guess what I don't get is why is this on the ballot again? I thought the courts overturned it.
 
[quote name='xycury']
I guess what I don't get is why is this on the ballot again? I thought the courts overturned it.[/QUOTE]

Asshole bigots started a petition and got enough signatures to put it on the ballot.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Asshole bigots started a petition and got enough signatures to put it on the ballot.[/quote]

fuck you. I love how just because someone doesn't approve of homosexuality, they're automatically an "asshole bigot". Maybe if homosexuals allowed society to come to terms with their lifestyle choice at their own pace, rather then forcefully shoving it down everyones throats, people would be more tolerant of it. If people who disagree with homosexuality are "asshole bigots", then what the hell does that make religion bashers? People across the country have gone to the polls and unanimously voted down same sex marriage in nearly every case. People don't want to destroy the sanctity of marriage. Sorry if you feel slighted in any way. Too bad.
 
[quote name='Bee52']fuck you. I love how just because someone doesn't approve of homosexuality, they're automatically an "asshole bigot".[/QUOTE]

What does it make you, then, if not a bigot?
 
How were homosexual people 'forcefully shoving it down everyones throats'? By existing? By by getting married?
You can disagree with something, but taking it away from them because you disagree crosses the line into bigotry.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Asshole bigots started a petition and got enough signatures to put it on the ballot.[/quote]

ah that's a bummer... hopefully the courts will come back again.

and can't help but laugh at Bee52... I may have to ask what did they do to you to hate so much.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']What does it make you, then, if not a bigot?[/quote]

I'm not intolerant of your right to be gay, you go right ahead and do whatever it is you want to do, it's none of my business. Just don't make it my business or the business of anyone else that doesn't want to know about it, and everyone is fine.
 
[quote name='xycury']ah that's a bummer... hopefully the courts will come back again.

and can't help but laugh at Bee52... I may have to ask what did they do to you to hate so much.[/quote]

Yes, because the courts are allowed to make laws, that's how our government works :roll:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top