depascal22
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elprincipe, how would you suggest we fix this problem then? If we can't use affirmative action, how would you take racism out of the equation?
Racial Quotas and Affirmative Action post Obama
- Thread starter militantatheistaphob
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Chuplayer
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Thank you, elprincipe.
[quote name='nathansu']Wowzers, so no one who is black could possibly be qualified for any job? I did not peg you for a racist up until now :X.[/quote]
1. Did I ever say that I felt uneasy around doctors that aren't white? No.
2. The school and college systems do push through minorities with poorer grades just because they're minorities. One of the results here is doctors who haven't worked as hard as white doctors. I refuse to deny that.
3. True equality will come about when people can have confidence in people of any race or ethnicity to do their jobs as well as they should because they will be judged on pure knowledge, skill, and performance and not on the color of their skin.
Are you
ing shitting me? What the ? I had to literally go back to the string of posts to make sure I was seeing what I was seeing. Here's what I said in what you quoted...
And you responded with (and I quote)...
I don't even know what else to say. I mean, I said that I agreed with your stance on the "can't get out" culture in the projects and such being something that's abhorrent, and then you go and say that the fact that that same culture gets picked up by suburban kids "is an EXTREMELY positive thing." I mean... ugh... I just have to leave this one alone.
No, what actually happens is minority kids living in good suburbs either get indoctrinated by this insane culture or minority kids that move to good suburbs don't grow the hell up and grasp the opportunities they have in front of them. Then you get prepubescent gangbangers. Some kids end up this way, and others do grow up and live like a normal human being.
They do something about it! Social change! They get their voices heard! Obviously there hasn't been enough change since the days of Martin Luther King Jr., so if it's so important to minorities, somebody like him has to rise up and the people will have to take the responsibility and the initiative to help him or her create the change that would bring true equality. Until then, it's just a bunch of losers whining about how bad life is.
$10? That sounds like it would make for a good movie.
[quote name='nathansu']Wowzers, so no one who is black could possibly be qualified for any job? I did not peg you for a racist up until now :X.[/quote]
1. Did I ever say that I felt uneasy around doctors that aren't white? No.
2. The school and college systems do push through minorities with poorer grades just because they're minorities. One of the results here is doctors who haven't worked as hard as white doctors. I refuse to deny that.
3. True equality will come about when people can have confidence in people of any race or ethnicity to do their jobs as well as they should because they will be judged on pure knowledge, skill, and performance and not on the color of their skin.
Are you
ing shitting me? What the ? I had to literally go back to the string of posts to make sure I was seeing what I was seeing. Here's what I said in what you quoted...And you responded with (and I quote)...
I don't even know what else to say. I mean, I said that I agreed with your stance on the "can't get out" culture in the projects and such being something that's abhorrent, and then you go and say that the fact that that same culture gets picked up by suburban kids "is an EXTREMELY positive thing." I mean... ugh... I just have to leave this one alone.
No, what actually happens is minority kids living in good suburbs either get indoctrinated by this insane culture or minority kids that move to good suburbs don't grow the hell up and grasp the opportunities they have in front of them. Then you get prepubescent gangbangers. Some kids end up this way, and others do grow up and live like a normal human being.
Clearly you haven't been to the point where it's either A) You make $5 an hour minimum wage and barely pay the bills in the projects or B) Slang/join a gang and actually make a decent living. In all seriousness, kids in the projects only have these options.
What is the other option? If they have NO money to go to school, have NO support from parents to do so, and have NO support from society, what in the
They do something about it! Social change! They get their voices heard! Obviously there hasn't been enough change since the days of Martin Luther King Jr., so if it's so important to minorities, somebody like him has to rise up and the people will have to take the responsibility and the initiative to help him or her create the change that would bring true equality. Until then, it's just a bunch of losers whining about how bad life is.
$10? That sounds like it would make for a good movie.
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Trancendental
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[quote name='depascal22']elprincipe, how would you suggest we fix this problem then? If we can't use affirmative action, how would you take racism out of the equation?[/quote]
If we could significantly reduce corporate graft and corruption, and find a way to start rolling back the gross exploitation of the poor and middle classes, then this type of issue would cure itself. The arguement over AA is a red herring and if you spend your time bickering about it then you're a fool.
If we could significantly reduce corporate graft and corruption, and find a way to start rolling back the gross exploitation of the poor and middle classes, then this type of issue would cure itself. The arguement over AA is a red herring and if you spend your time bickering about it then you're a fool.
depascal22 hit an interesting, overlooked point.
The context in which I'm most familiar with it is law school -- it is a very real issue for minorities to face bias from employers in law school, as minorities get a huge bump. A black can score 80th percentile on the LSAT and be on par for admissions with white applicants who scored 99th percentile, no joke. That white applicant, as far as performance is concerned, is 20 times as rare, yet they'd have about equal shot at the top schools. Employers know this, and recognize it when looking for people to summer for them, or new hires. Blacks out of law school typically have a harder time finding jobs than their white classmates. For example, a white and a black both graduate from Harvard, the firm will likely be biased toward the white student because the standards for admitting them to Harvard were much higher.
Clarence Thomas has discussed this extensively, and it's one of the primary reasons he opposes affirmative action in education.
The context in which I'm most familiar with it is law school -- it is a very real issue for minorities to face bias from employers in law school, as minorities get a huge bump. A black can score 80th percentile on the LSAT and be on par for admissions with white applicants who scored 99th percentile, no joke. That white applicant, as far as performance is concerned, is 20 times as rare, yet they'd have about equal shot at the top schools. Employers know this, and recognize it when looking for people to summer for them, or new hires. Blacks out of law school typically have a harder time finding jobs than their white classmates. For example, a white and a black both graduate from Harvard, the firm will likely be biased toward the white student because the standards for admitting them to Harvard were much higher.
Clarence Thomas has discussed this extensively, and it's one of the primary reasons he opposes affirmative action in education.
[quote name='depascal22']elprincipe, how would you suggest we fix this problem then? If we can't use affirmative action, how would you take racism out of the equation?[/QUOTE]
You can never successfully socially engineer society unless you want to take full control of it and do it by fiat (like Myke). And you will never be able to take racism and discrimination out of the equation. The problem with your solution mentality is that you keep trying to reduce society into an equation, which is impossible.
Step one would be to stop playing the victim. You say it's unfair if a black man has to work twice as hard to get where a white man is? That sucks, but the work will make you a better man, and no one wants to hear you bitch and moan about how unfair the world is to you. White man won't let you into his business? Start your own. I know Cambodians, Koreans, Laotians, Haitians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians who have done just that. Most of them are also dark skinned and don't seem to be dissuaded by perceived stereotypes of how descendants of former slaves are supposed to be treated. Some of them didn't even speak english when they came here, yet have carved their niche into the American dream despite the setbacks they've had to endure.
You think blacks are discriminated against? Try being a five foot, sixty-year-old Iranian man trying to get a loan to open a corner restaurant. They work hard. They persevere. They overcome. They don't bitch about how much the world hates them. They came from places in the world where bitching about the system got them a death sentence. They keep trying until they succeed. They laugh at people who make a life a litany of excuses.
So you can save your social engineering skills for the coming communist dictatorship. You'll have a star on your lapel and a lifetime appointment to find and remove all the unbelievers. You can personally right all the wrongs, hand out all the favors to the deserving, and make sure we are all equally miserable.
You can never successfully socially engineer society unless you want to take full control of it and do it by fiat (like Myke). And you will never be able to take racism and discrimination out of the equation. The problem with your solution mentality is that you keep trying to reduce society into an equation, which is impossible.
Step one would be to stop playing the victim. You say it's unfair if a black man has to work twice as hard to get where a white man is? That sucks, but the work will make you a better man, and no one wants to hear you bitch and moan about how unfair the world is to you. White man won't let you into his business? Start your own. I know Cambodians, Koreans, Laotians, Haitians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians who have done just that. Most of them are also dark skinned and don't seem to be dissuaded by perceived stereotypes of how descendants of former slaves are supposed to be treated. Some of them didn't even speak english when they came here, yet have carved their niche into the American dream despite the setbacks they've had to endure.
You think blacks are discriminated against? Try being a five foot, sixty-year-old Iranian man trying to get a loan to open a corner restaurant. They work hard. They persevere. They overcome. They don't bitch about how much the world hates them. They came from places in the world where bitching about the system got them a death sentence. They keep trying until they succeed. They laugh at people who make a life a litany of excuses.
So you can save your social engineering skills for the coming communist dictatorship. You'll have a star on your lapel and a lifetime appointment to find and remove all the unbelievers. You can personally right all the wrongs, hand out all the favors to the deserving, and make sure we are all equally miserable.
mykevermin
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Here's a story of one person. Now let me use that anecdote to build a foundation of "they"s.
That makes perfect sense. Patterns, data, research, they (ha-ha) don't matter. This one guy I know who succeeded, even if they're the exception to the rule, proves that any person can do anything.
And if it just so happens that I only have to work half as hard as you do, tough. I certainly don't mind clinging onto institutions of white privilege. It benefits me! Why should I care?
So, take your high school diploma, since you couldn't afford college and the half-tuition scholarship wasn't enough, since you can't afford that other half, let alone books. Take that diploma, along with a work history solely in the service industry, since you were discriminated out of other work you were more than capable of. They weren't hiring at the moment, but they are always taking applications. You can almost smell it coming it's so familiar to you. But, anyway, take your high school diploma, your family's destitute poverty, and your work history as a "kitchen technician," and go down to the bank. They'll gladly give you a $50,000 loan to start your business. They're more than happy to ignore all the marks of a high-risk loan, ignore the same racial category that kept you out in the first place, and just hand over the money.
Yeah, start your own business. I'm going to start my own tomorrow. After all, I don't need anything to start, right? Nothin' at all.
That makes perfect sense. Patterns, data, research, they (ha-ha) don't matter. This one guy I know who succeeded, even if they're the exception to the rule, proves that any person can do anything.
And if it just so happens that I only have to work half as hard as you do, tough. I certainly don't mind clinging onto institutions of white privilege. It benefits me! Why should I care?
So, take your high school diploma, since you couldn't afford college and the half-tuition scholarship wasn't enough, since you can't afford that other half, let alone books. Take that diploma, along with a work history solely in the service industry, since you were discriminated out of other work you were more than capable of. They weren't hiring at the moment, but they are always taking applications. You can almost smell it coming it's so familiar to you. But, anyway, take your high school diploma, your family's destitute poverty, and your work history as a "kitchen technician," and go down to the bank. They'll gladly give you a $50,000 loan to start your business. They're more than happy to ignore all the marks of a high-risk loan, ignore the same racial category that kept you out in the first place, and just hand over the money.
Yeah, start your own business. I'm going to start my own tomorrow. After all, I don't need anything to start, right? Nothin' at all.
militantatheistaphob
CAG Veteran
[quote name='bmulligan']You can never successfully socially engineer society unless you want to take full control of it and do it by fiat (like Myke). And you will never be able to take racism and discrimination out of the equation. The problem with your solution mentality is that you keep trying to reduce society into an equation, which is impossible.
Step one would be to stop playing the victim. You say it's unfair if a black man has to work twice as hard to get where a white man is? That sucks, but the work will make you a better man, and no one wants to hear you bitch and moan about how unfair the world is to you. White man won't let you into his business? Start your own. I know Cambodians, Koreans, Laotians, Haitians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians who have done just that. Most of them are also dark skinned and don't seem to be dissuaded by perceived stereotypes of how descendants of former slaves are supposed to be treated. Some of them didn't even speak english when they came here, yet have carved their niche into the American dream despite the setbacks they've had to endure.
You think blacks are discriminated against? Try being a five foot, sixty-year-old Iranian man trying to get a loan to open a corner restaurant. They work hard. They persevere. They overcome. They don't bitch about how much the world hates them. They came from places in the world where bitching about the system got them a death sentence. They keep trying until they succeed. They laugh at people who make a life a litany of excuses.
So you can save your social engineering skills for the coming communist dictatorship. You'll have a star on your lapel and a lifetime appointment to find and remove all the unbelievers. You can personally right all the wrongs, hand out all the favors to the deserving, and make sure we are all equally miserable.[/quote]
Nice Points!!
Do you Blacks fail at a larger rate in more elite schools because they are out of their league, but they could of excelled at a lower ranked schooles
Step one would be to stop playing the victim. You say it's unfair if a black man has to work twice as hard to get where a white man is? That sucks, but the work will make you a better man, and no one wants to hear you bitch and moan about how unfair the world is to you. White man won't let you into his business? Start your own. I know Cambodians, Koreans, Laotians, Haitians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians who have done just that. Most of them are also dark skinned and don't seem to be dissuaded by perceived stereotypes of how descendants of former slaves are supposed to be treated. Some of them didn't even speak english when they came here, yet have carved their niche into the American dream despite the setbacks they've had to endure.
You think blacks are discriminated against? Try being a five foot, sixty-year-old Iranian man trying to get a loan to open a corner restaurant. They work hard. They persevere. They overcome. They don't bitch about how much the world hates them. They came from places in the world where bitching about the system got them a death sentence. They keep trying until they succeed. They laugh at people who make a life a litany of excuses.
So you can save your social engineering skills for the coming communist dictatorship. You'll have a star on your lapel and a lifetime appointment to find and remove all the unbelievers. You can personally right all the wrongs, hand out all the favors to the deserving, and make sure we are all equally miserable.[/quote]
Nice Points!!
Do you Blacks fail at a larger rate in more elite schools because they are out of their league, but they could of excelled at a lower ranked schooles
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='militantatheistaphob']Nice Points!!
Do you Blacks fail at a larger rate in more elite schools because they are out of their league, but they could of excelled at a lower ranked schooles[/quote]
Apparently there is a correlation between racism and not being able to form a coherent sentence.
Do you Blacks fail at a larger rate in more elite schools because they are out of their league, but they could of excelled at a lower ranked schooles[/quote]
Apparently there is a correlation between racism and not being able to form a coherent sentence.
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='Chuplayer']
$10? That sounds like it would make for a good movie.[/quote]
You've completely dodged my point (no surprise).
What would you do if you had no support system, no money, no education, nothing to fall back on, and were dropped off in South Central?
You clearly only have a few options :
So three options - choose one and then tell me everyone has equal opportunities.
$10? That sounds like it would make for a good movie.[/quote]
You've completely dodged my point (no surprise).
What would you do if you had no support system, no money, no education, nothing to fall back on, and were dropped off in South Central?
You clearly only have a few options :
- Get on welfare and live in the hood.
- Get a minimum wage job and live in the hood.
- Start slanging and hope you can save up enough money to get out of the hood.
So three options - choose one and then tell me everyone has equal opportunities.
[quote name='mykevermin']Here's a story of one person. Now let me use that anecdote to build a foundation of "they"s.
That makes perfect sense. Patterns, data, research, they (ha-ha) don't matter. This one guy I know who succeeded, even if they're the exception to the rule, proves that any person can do anything.
And if it just so happens that I only have to work half as hard as you do, tough. I certainly don't mind clinging onto institutions of white privilege. It benefits me! Why should I care?
So, take your high school diploma, since you couldn't afford college and the half-tuition scholarship wasn't enough, since you can't afford that other half, let alone books. Take that diploma, along with a work history solely in the service industry, since you were discriminated out of other work you were more than capable of. They weren't hiring at the moment, but they are always taking applications. You can almost smell it coming it's so familiar to you. But, anyway, take your high school diploma, your family's destitute poverty, and your work history as a "kitchen technician," and go down to the bank. They'll gladly give you a $50,000 loan to start your business. They're more than happy to ignore all the marks of a high-risk loan, ignore the same racial category that kept you out in the first place, and just hand over the money.
Yeah, start your own business. I'm going to start my own tomorrow. After all, I don't need anything to start, right? Nothin' at all.[/QUOTE]
Bravo.
That makes perfect sense. Patterns, data, research, they (ha-ha) don't matter. This one guy I know who succeeded, even if they're the exception to the rule, proves that any person can do anything.
And if it just so happens that I only have to work half as hard as you do, tough. I certainly don't mind clinging onto institutions of white privilege. It benefits me! Why should I care?
So, take your high school diploma, since you couldn't afford college and the half-tuition scholarship wasn't enough, since you can't afford that other half, let alone books. Take that diploma, along with a work history solely in the service industry, since you were discriminated out of other work you were more than capable of. They weren't hiring at the moment, but they are always taking applications. You can almost smell it coming it's so familiar to you. But, anyway, take your high school diploma, your family's destitute poverty, and your work history as a "kitchen technician," and go down to the bank. They'll gladly give you a $50,000 loan to start your business. They're more than happy to ignore all the marks of a high-risk loan, ignore the same racial category that kept you out in the first place, and just hand over the money.
Yeah, start your own business. I'm going to start my own tomorrow. After all, I don't need anything to start, right? Nothin' at all.[/QUOTE]
Bravo.
Trancendental
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[quote name='nathansu']You've completely dodged my point (no surprise).
What would you do if you had no support system, no money, no education, nothing to fall back on, and were dropped off in South Central?
You clearly only have a few options :
So three options - choose one and then tell me everyone has equal opportunities.[/quote]
You're positing false choices.
I know a family who were in this situation. They were from an educated, well-off family that was outsted from a foreign country during a military coup and forced to flee with almost nothing. It fits your hypothetical scenario almost perfectly.
They lived in a condo. The father got a job at the quickie mart, the three boys went to school and worked after. No complaining about how life is unfair, no bitching and moaning about how they deserved to be compensated because all of their property had been forcibly taken away in a foreign land. The guy I knew was actually one of the happiest people I knew - he understood the opportunities this country afforded him better then I did. The father worked diligently at a job that he was vastly overqualified for and quickly became store manager. The first son ended up working so the other two kids could go to college. Eventually the first son went to college when the family financials afforded him the opportunity.
Now they are all working at the same prestigious financial institution as managers, with a side business renting out houses.
America is a land where talent has the opportunity to rise to the top with hard work. Now not everyone is cut out to be a lawyer or doctor, and we should pay blue-collar people a fair living wage and give them health-care benefits. But don't cry me some sob story about how talented people in the hood have the choice of either taking a minimum wage job for life or becoming a criminal because it isn't true. You have talent? Then take that minimum-wage job, live in the hood while you have to, and work your ass off for something better.
So take option 2, and if you can't work your way up to manager of McDonalds so you do have something left over, then I'm sorry kiddo but you never had what it takes in the first place.
What would you do if you had no support system, no money, no education, nothing to fall back on, and were dropped off in South Central?
You clearly only have a few options :
- Get on welfare and live in the hood.
- Get a minimum wage job and live in the hood.
- Start slanging and hope you can save up enough money to get out of the hood.
So three options - choose one and then tell me everyone has equal opportunities.[/quote]
You're positing false choices.
I know a family who were in this situation. They were from an educated, well-off family that was outsted from a foreign country during a military coup and forced to flee with almost nothing. It fits your hypothetical scenario almost perfectly.
They lived in a condo. The father got a job at the quickie mart, the three boys went to school and worked after. No complaining about how life is unfair, no bitching and moaning about how they deserved to be compensated because all of their property had been forcibly taken away in a foreign land. The guy I knew was actually one of the happiest people I knew - he understood the opportunities this country afforded him better then I did. The father worked diligently at a job that he was vastly overqualified for and quickly became store manager. The first son ended up working so the other two kids could go to college. Eventually the first son went to college when the family financials afforded him the opportunity.
Now they are all working at the same prestigious financial institution as managers, with a side business renting out houses.
America is a land where talent has the opportunity to rise to the top with hard work. Now not everyone is cut out to be a lawyer or doctor, and we should pay blue-collar people a fair living wage and give them health-care benefits. But don't cry me some sob story about how talented people in the hood have the choice of either taking a minimum wage job for life or becoming a criminal because it isn't true. You have talent? Then take that minimum-wage job, live in the hood while you have to, and work your ass off for something better.
So take option 2, and if you can't work your way up to manager of McDonalds so you do have something left over, then I'm sorry kiddo but you never had what it takes in the first place.
Chuplayer
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[quote name='nathansu']You've completely dodged my point (no surprise).[/QUOTE]
And you took the bait. You completely dodged every other point I made in my previous post, especially the really important one where I had to make sure I was understanding what I was reading. So, the hell with you. Getting anywhere with a racist like you is impossible. Here's hoping you get socially Darwined out of society someday.
And you took the bait. You completely dodged every other point I made in my previous post, especially the really important one where I had to make sure I was understanding what I was reading. So, the hell with you. Getting anywhere with a racist like you is impossible. Here's hoping you get socially Darwined out of society someday.
camoor, they obviously must have had some kind of money stashed away if they could afford the deposit/immediate rent on a condo and could afford to eat before the first pay check rolled in a week or to three weeks later.
Also comparing a family, a family with members who have college degrees is not exactly starting from nothing.
Also comparing a family, a family with members who have college degrees is not exactly starting from nothing.
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='camoor']You're positing false choices.
I know a family who were in this situation. They were from an educated, well-off family that was outsted from a foreign country during a military coup and forced to flee with almost nothing. It fits your hypothetical scenario almost perfectly.
They lived in a condo. The father got a job at the quickie mart, the three boys went to school and worked after. No complaining about how life is unfair, no bitching and moaning about how they deserved to be compensated because all of their property had been forcibly taken away in a foreign land. The guy I knew was actually one of the happiest people I knew - he understood the opportunities this country afforded him better then I did. The father worked diligently at a job that he was vastly overqualified for and quickly became store manager. The first son ended up working so the other two kids could go to college. Eventually the first son went to college when the family financials afforded him the opportunity.
Now they are all working at the same prestigious financial institution as managers, with a side business renting out houses.
America is a land where talent has the opportunity to rise to the top with hard work. Now not everyone is cut out to be a lawyer or doctor, and we should pay blue-collar people a fair living wage and give them health-care benefits. But don't cry me some sob story about how talented people in the hood have the choice of either taking a minimum wage job for life or becoming a criminal because it isn't true. You have talent? Then take that minimum-wage job, live in the hood while you have to, and work your ass off for something better.
So take option 2, and if you can't work your way up to manager of McDonalds so you do have something left over, then I'm sorry kiddo but you never had what it takes in the first place.[/quote]
You've missed the point entirely.
The point is about affording equal opportunities for people. I'm not making the case that it is impossible to dig yourself out of this situation. I'm making the case that it's very improbable that you will.
That being the case, it is still necessary to help people in situations like the one you mentioned to succeed. Why? Because they have the odds stacked against them.
I know a family who were in this situation. They were from an educated, well-off family that was outsted from a foreign country during a military coup and forced to flee with almost nothing. It fits your hypothetical scenario almost perfectly.
They lived in a condo. The father got a job at the quickie mart, the three boys went to school and worked after. No complaining about how life is unfair, no bitching and moaning about how they deserved to be compensated because all of their property had been forcibly taken away in a foreign land. The guy I knew was actually one of the happiest people I knew - he understood the opportunities this country afforded him better then I did. The father worked diligently at a job that he was vastly overqualified for and quickly became store manager. The first son ended up working so the other two kids could go to college. Eventually the first son went to college when the family financials afforded him the opportunity.
Now they are all working at the same prestigious financial institution as managers, with a side business renting out houses.
America is a land where talent has the opportunity to rise to the top with hard work. Now not everyone is cut out to be a lawyer or doctor, and we should pay blue-collar people a fair living wage and give them health-care benefits. But don't cry me some sob story about how talented people in the hood have the choice of either taking a minimum wage job for life or becoming a criminal because it isn't true. You have talent? Then take that minimum-wage job, live in the hood while you have to, and work your ass off for something better.
So take option 2, and if you can't work your way up to manager of McDonalds so you do have something left over, then I'm sorry kiddo but you never had what it takes in the first place.[/quote]
You've missed the point entirely.
The point is about affording equal opportunities for people. I'm not making the case that it is impossible to dig yourself out of this situation. I'm making the case that it's very improbable that you will.
That being the case, it is still necessary to help people in situations like the one you mentioned to succeed. Why? Because they have the odds stacked against them.
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='Chuplayer']Getting anywhere with a racist like you is impossible. Here's hoping you get socially Darwined out of society someday.[/quote]
It's sort of impossible to be racist against your own race.
I'm a white guy simply pointing out truths of the world. People "of color" have it worse off than us (on average). Get over it.
It's sort of impossible to be racist against your own race.
I'm a white guy simply pointing out truths of the world. People "of color" have it worse off than us (on average). Get over it.
The Crotch
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What an ugly kitten.
depascal22
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bmull, I did start a business. I'm trying to do everything I can to be more than some kid from LA. I had more opportunities and took advantage of them better than other people from the hood.
elprincipe
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[quote name='depascal22']elprincipe, how would you suggest we fix this problem then? If we can't use affirmative action, how would you take racism out of the equation?[/QUOTE]
1. Strict enforcement of anti-discrimination laws.
2. Restructure our education system so that certain areas aren't far better in terms of schools than others. More money doesn't necessarily make this go either way. We need a fundamental change in the way our elementary/high schools operate. I'd like to see the whole thing privatized and the government just give a voucher to each child for the same amount, with parents picking which schools they want (as long as they are accredited, et cetera).
3. Continuation of the social changes in our society that have made racism more and more marginalized and unacceptable.
4. Eliminate government emphasis on race, which perpetuates societal emphasis on race. Not many people discriminate against someone who has black hair as opposed to red, and government doesn't distinguish between the two. Our goal should be to have skin color regarded the same way.
1. Strict enforcement of anti-discrimination laws.
2. Restructure our education system so that certain areas aren't far better in terms of schools than others. More money doesn't necessarily make this go either way. We need a fundamental change in the way our elementary/high schools operate. I'd like to see the whole thing privatized and the government just give a voucher to each child for the same amount, with parents picking which schools they want (as long as they are accredited, et cetera).
3. Continuation of the social changes in our society that have made racism more and more marginalized and unacceptable.
4. Eliminate government emphasis on race, which perpetuates societal emphasis on race. Not many people discriminate against someone who has black hair as opposed to red, and government doesn't distinguish between the two. Our goal should be to have skin color regarded the same way.
Trancendental
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[quote name='Msut77']camoor, they obviously must have had some kind of money stashed away if they could afford the deposit/immediate rent on a condo and could afford to eat before the first pay check rolled in a week or to three weeks later.
Also comparing a family, a family with members who have college degrees is not exactly starting from nothing.[/quote]
I don't know they the father had a college degree (at least anything recognized in America). Being that he was a former politician who took a quickie mart job I doubt it.
[quote name='nathansu']You've missed the point entirely.
The point is about affording equal opportunities for people. I'm not making the case that it is impossible to dig yourself out of this situation. I'm making the case that it's very improbable that you will.
That being the case, it is still necessary to help people in situations like the one you mentioned to succeed. Why? Because they have the odds stacked against them.[/quote]
OK then we're destined not to agree.
I agree with you that having resources increases your chances of success. Capitalism isn't perfect and under a capitalist system you will never get to a point where all children start with exactly the same amount of opportunity.
I'd say we also probably agree that the poor and middle classes are being given a raw deal in this day and age. Blue-collar workers are being paid barely enough to survive by an executive class that's only interested in fattening CEO pay.
The difference is in how we propose to address it.
I propose we pay the poor and middle class a fair living wage, a wage that affords them and their progeny a fair opportunity to succeed if they are willing to work hard and make judicious purchases their money (that may mean choosing education and books over designer clothes, tickets to Nascar races, or the latest cell phone).
You propose lowering the qualifications for jobs and educational opportunities based on the applicants race.
Race-based policies have always been an abysmal failure throughout history. One of America's strengths has always been it's ability to eventually rise above divisive issues such as race and religion, for the good of the country and the economy. AA isn't progress, it's degression.
Also comparing a family, a family with members who have college degrees is not exactly starting from nothing.[/quote]
I don't know they the father had a college degree (at least anything recognized in America). Being that he was a former politician who took a quickie mart job I doubt it.
[quote name='nathansu']You've missed the point entirely.
The point is about affording equal opportunities for people. I'm not making the case that it is impossible to dig yourself out of this situation. I'm making the case that it's very improbable that you will.
That being the case, it is still necessary to help people in situations like the one you mentioned to succeed. Why? Because they have the odds stacked against them.[/quote]
OK then we're destined not to agree.
I agree with you that having resources increases your chances of success. Capitalism isn't perfect and under a capitalist system you will never get to a point where all children start with exactly the same amount of opportunity.
I'd say we also probably agree that the poor and middle classes are being given a raw deal in this day and age. Blue-collar workers are being paid barely enough to survive by an executive class that's only interested in fattening CEO pay.
The difference is in how we propose to address it.
I propose we pay the poor and middle class a fair living wage, a wage that affords them and their progeny a fair opportunity to succeed if they are willing to work hard and make judicious purchases their money (that may mean choosing education and books over designer clothes, tickets to Nascar races, or the latest cell phone).
You propose lowering the qualifications for jobs and educational opportunities based on the applicants race.
Race-based policies have always been an abysmal failure throughout history. One of America's strengths has always been it's ability to eventually rise above divisive issues such as race and religion, for the good of the country and the economy. AA isn't progress, it's degression.
elprincipe
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[quote name='nathansu']Apparently there is a correlation between racism and not being able to form a coherent sentence.[/QUOTE]
I've found something in one of your posts on this thread that I can agree with.
I've found something in one of your posts on this thread that I can agree with.
militantatheistaphob
CAG Veteran
AA creates racism therefore it is a self fulfilling policy created by racists
HOW do all you racists feel about immigration policy. Should we stop letting in Hispanics once they become the majority?
HOW do all you racists feel about immigration policy. Should we stop letting in Hispanics once they become the majority?
depascal22
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[quote name='camoor']Race-based policies have always been an abysmal failure throughout history. One of America's strengths has always been it's ability to eventually rise above divisive issues such as race and religion, for the good of the country and the economy. AA isn't progress, it's degression.[/quote]
Until last Tuesday, I would've said that America has NEVER risen above the divisive issues like race and religion. Then again, many of the attacks against Obama would've never been made against a white candidate.
For all the arguments, I've never head a plusible explanation for why inner city schools are so bad. I've never heard any solutions that will help inner city kids rise up in the world. Basically, everyone says AA is bad. I'll help you get rid of it if you help me fix inner city schools.
EDIT -- The funny thing is that I'm actually all for individual rights. I'm pro-Second Amendment. I'm for the legalization of marijuana. I'm pro-life. I deomonize the right because they have admitted to using the same tactics. I'm an eye for eye kind of guy. your freedom if it means I don't have any real freedom.
You just seem to think that corporations should have that same freedom even though they just use that as an excuse to keep black people down. You seem to think that a corporation acts in anything but self-interest. That self-interest could be destroying America but who cares?
Until last Tuesday, I would've said that America has NEVER risen above the divisive issues like race and religion. Then again, many of the attacks against Obama would've never been made against a white candidate.
For all the arguments, I've never head a plusible explanation for why inner city schools are so bad. I've never heard any solutions that will help inner city kids rise up in the world. Basically, everyone says AA is bad. I'll help you get rid of it if you help me fix inner city schools.
EDIT -- The funny thing is that I'm actually all for individual rights. I'm pro-Second Amendment. I'm for the legalization of marijuana. I'm pro-life. I deomonize the right because they have admitted to using the same tactics. I'm an eye for eye kind of guy.
your freedom if it means I don't have any real freedom. You just seem to think that corporations should have that same freedom even though they just use that as an excuse to keep black people down. You seem to think that a corporation acts in anything but self-interest. That self-interest could be destroying America but who cares?
[quote name='camoor']
The difference is in how we propose to address it.
.[/QUOTE]
I think the thing here is that it's not, and shouldn't be, and either or situation.
Long term we need to fix inner city schools and work to reduce racism. Short term we need to do what we can to help people stuck living in poverty and attending schools in crappy districts to overcome those obstacles in the mean time.
Now I'm not sure race based AA is the way to go. The black suburban kid who attended a good school doesn't need much help. Again I really think we need some kind of complex system that helps out poor kids from bad school districts. Find someway to help them get into decent schools, pay for college and give them tutoring to help them succeed in college since they have an education gap to make up from attending a crappy school.
But long term the key is to fix the public education system.
The difference is in how we propose to address it.
.[/QUOTE]
I think the thing here is that it's not, and shouldn't be, and either or situation.
Long term we need to fix inner city schools and work to reduce racism. Short term we need to do what we can to help people stuck living in poverty and attending schools in crappy districts to overcome those obstacles in the mean time.
Now I'm not sure race based AA is the way to go. The black suburban kid who attended a good school doesn't need much help. Again I really think we need some kind of complex system that helps out poor kids from bad school districts. Find someway to help them get into decent schools, pay for college and give them tutoring to help them succeed in college since they have an education gap to make up from attending a crappy school.
But long term the key is to fix the public education system.
Trancendental
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[quote name='depascal22']Until last Tuesday, I would've said that America has NEVER risen above the divisive issues like race and religion. Then again, many of the attacks against Obama would've never been made against a white candidate. [/quote]
I'd agree that America (or any country, anywhere) has risen above all of the divisive issues resulting from differences of race and religion. But my opinion is that given where it started, America has consistently had a better track record of marching towards racial equality and religious tolerance then the vast majority of world countries (although we may have recently slipped a little on the latter).
[quote name='depascal22']For all the arguments, I've never head a plusible explanation for why inner city schools are so bad. I've never heard any solutions that will help inner city kids rise up in the world. Basically, everyone says AA is bad. I'll help you get rid of it if you help me fix inner city schools.[/quote]
Sounds like a win-win to me - it's a deal. The problem in DC is not funding - but rather corruption and incompetence. Too many teachers are unqualified, they've found wearhouses filled with misplaced textbooks, construction workers getting paid for doing nothing due to poorly written contracts and poorly planned construction. The city had a crack addicted mayor that sold out the people - and a fish rots from the head. Things are slowly changing but it's going to take alot of time.
http://dcist.com/2008/02/07/nearly_half_of.php
[quote name='depascal22']EDIT -- The funny thing is that I'm actually all for individual rights. I'm pro-Second Amendment. I'm for the legalization of marijuana. I'm pro-life. I deomonize the right because they have admitted to using the same tactics. I'm an eye for eye kind of guy. your freedom if it means I don't have any real freedom.
You just seem to think that corporations should have that same freedom even though they just use that as an excuse to keep black people down. You seem to think that a corporation acts in anything but self-interest. That self-interest could be destroying America but who cares?[/quote]
You think corporations care about keeping racial groups down? They don't care if you're green or purple, they just want your money. If a corporation is shown to be discriminating racially then I agree they should be exposed and prosecuted. A good example is Abercrombie and Fitch's propensity to put minorities in the back storeroom - one of the many reasons I'll never set foot in that store.
Also not to derail - but don't you mean pro-choice? Pro-life is the "govt marching into my uterus" position.
[quote name='dmaul1114']I think the thing here is that it's not, and shouldn't be, and either or situation.
Long term we need to fix inner city schools and work to reduce racism. Short term we need to do what we can to help people stuck living in poverty and attending schools in crappy districts to overcome those obstacles in the mean time.
Now I'm not sure race based AA is the way to go. The black suburban kid who attended a good school doesn't need much help. Again I really think we need some kind of complex system that helps out poor kids from bad school districts. Find someway to help them get into decent schools, pay for college and give them tutoring to help them succeed in college since they have an education gap to make up from attending a crappy school.
But long term the key is to fix the public education system.[/quote]
This is a nuanced well-thought out opinion. I basically agree - it's why I support programs such as after-school sports/activities to keep kids off the streets - it's paying pennies in coach salaries now or dollars in incarceration costs later. Problem is these kids can often be very hard to reach, and I really think there's a pervasive destructive attitude in lower-class areas of America.
I'd agree that America (or any country, anywhere) has risen above all of the divisive issues resulting from differences of race and religion. But my opinion is that given where it started, America has consistently had a better track record of marching towards racial equality and religious tolerance then the vast majority of world countries (although we may have recently slipped a little on the latter).
[quote name='depascal22']For all the arguments, I've never head a plusible explanation for why inner city schools are so bad. I've never heard any solutions that will help inner city kids rise up in the world. Basically, everyone says AA is bad. I'll help you get rid of it if you help me fix inner city schools.[/quote]
Sounds like a win-win to me - it's a deal. The problem in DC is not funding - but rather corruption and incompetence. Too many teachers are unqualified, they've found wearhouses filled with misplaced textbooks, construction workers getting paid for doing nothing due to poorly written contracts and poorly planned construction. The city had a crack addicted mayor that sold out the people - and a fish rots from the head. Things are slowly changing but it's going to take alot of time.
http://dcist.com/2008/02/07/nearly_half_of.php
[quote name='depascal22']EDIT -- The funny thing is that I'm actually all for individual rights. I'm pro-Second Amendment. I'm for the legalization of marijuana. I'm pro-life. I deomonize the right because they have admitted to using the same tactics. I'm an eye for eye kind of guy. your freedom if it means I don't have any real freedom.
You just seem to think that corporations should have that same freedom even though they just use that as an excuse to keep black people down. You seem to think that a corporation acts in anything but self-interest. That self-interest could be destroying America but who cares?[/quote]
You think corporations care about keeping racial groups down? They don't care if you're green or purple, they just want your money. If a corporation is shown to be discriminating racially then I agree they should be exposed and prosecuted. A good example is Abercrombie and Fitch's propensity to put minorities in the back storeroom - one of the many reasons I'll never set foot in that store.
Also not to derail - but don't you mean pro-choice? Pro-life is the "govt marching into my uterus" position.
[quote name='dmaul1114']I think the thing here is that it's not, and shouldn't be, and either or situation.
Long term we need to fix inner city schools and work to reduce racism. Short term we need to do what we can to help people stuck living in poverty and attending schools in crappy districts to overcome those obstacles in the mean time.
Now I'm not sure race based AA is the way to go. The black suburban kid who attended a good school doesn't need much help. Again I really think we need some kind of complex system that helps out poor kids from bad school districts. Find someway to help them get into decent schools, pay for college and give them tutoring to help them succeed in college since they have an education gap to make up from attending a crappy school.
But long term the key is to fix the public education system.[/quote]
This is a nuanced well-thought out opinion. I basically agree - it's why I support programs such as after-school sports/activities to keep kids off the streets - it's paying pennies in coach salaries now or dollars in incarceration costs later. Problem is these kids can often be very hard to reach, and I really think there's a pervasive destructive attitude in lower-class areas of America.
mykevermin
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I'll agree with that last sentence. The problem both parties get is that education is something that goes beyond the 7AM-3PM hours. Lower class children have parents who are ill-equipped to help them out with their homework at all, and they may be less aware of the need to observe/monitor/help than others. That's the thesis of Anette Lareau's "Home Advantage," at any rate - which was an excellent, if qualitative, study on class differences in how education is "done" as a process the family is involved in.
Like Hillary Clinton's book title, it takes a village. In this case, a family. So motivation and hard work aren't enough - these kids are lacking in the tools for developing an understanding of how and why things are done. They're disadvantaged because their parents can't help them or don't know to help them, because their parents aren't involved in PTA meetings or following their children's progress through school, and because the kids aren't taught *how* to value education.
We can talk about schools until we're blue in the face, but vouchers, funding, privatization, quotas - none of this changes the culture of the lower classes - the idea that education is not only a waste of time, but an undesirable trait to have a firm grasp of. To be educated is to deny one's lot in life as dictated to you by your social group.
So, yes, schools need to be improved. But all the policies in the world are fruitless unless they also aim to change the anti-intellectual culture lower class kids grow up in.
Like Hillary Clinton's book title, it takes a village. In this case, a family. So motivation and hard work aren't enough - these kids are lacking in the tools for developing an understanding of how and why things are done. They're disadvantaged because their parents can't help them or don't know to help them, because their parents aren't involved in PTA meetings or following their children's progress through school, and because the kids aren't taught *how* to value education.
We can talk about schools until we're blue in the face, but vouchers, funding, privatization, quotas - none of this changes the culture of the lower classes - the idea that education is not only a waste of time, but an undesirable trait to have a firm grasp of. To be educated is to deny one's lot in life as dictated to you by your social group.
So, yes, schools need to be improved. But all the policies in the world are fruitless unless they also aim to change the anti-intellectual culture lower class kids grow up in.
Agree 100%. Having good schools in the inner cities will do nothing if the culture doesn't change. If parents don't care about their kids getting an education (if they care about them at all) and don't impart the value of getting an education kids aren't going to care either. Drop out rates will remain high, kids will still try to make easy money selling drugs etc. vs. working hard, getting an education and a good job etc.
Unfortunately, changing that culture will be very difficult.
Unfortunately, changing that culture will be very difficult.
[quote name='depascal22']bmull, I did start a business. I'm trying to do everything I can to be more than some kid from LA. I had more opportunities and took advantage of them better than other people from the hood.[/QUOTE]
Bravo, I commend you on your initiative. The problem with your situation, as myke would see it, is that there is a chance you might fail at your enterprise. in order for the social engineers to make life fair and equal for all of us, the government must step in and make sure you are successful.
It sounds like a great utopian ideal to live up to but think for a minute how ludicrous that idea would be in practice. The government bailing out all the lousy businessmen would make for a short lived government, unless of course they just decided to print more imaginary money to make up the difference. See any parallels to today's "financial crisis?". The government's purpose is to regulate commerce, not to ensure it's success. People always make bad choices when the real element of risk is removed from the equation by insurance.
That darwinistic capitalism takes care of itself where the good businessmen become successful and the bad ones go out of business is a necessary component of a free market. There simply is no freedom unless the chance of success coexists with that chance of failure. In myke's ideal world, we'll all go to college and get awesome paying jobs when we graduate, never having to clean toilets or empty garbage for a living.
Bravo, I commend you on your initiative. The problem with your situation, as myke would see it, is that there is a chance you might fail at your enterprise. in order for the social engineers to make life fair and equal for all of us, the government must step in and make sure you are successful.
It sounds like a great utopian ideal to live up to but think for a minute how ludicrous that idea would be in practice. The government bailing out all the lousy businessmen would make for a short lived government, unless of course they just decided to print more imaginary money to make up the difference. See any parallels to today's "financial crisis?". The government's purpose is to regulate commerce, not to ensure it's success. People always make bad choices when the real element of risk is removed from the equation by insurance.
That darwinistic capitalism takes care of itself where the good businessmen become successful and the bad ones go out of business is a necessary component of a free market. There simply is no freedom unless the chance of success coexists with that chance of failure. In myke's ideal world, we'll all go to college and get awesome paying jobs when we graduate, never having to clean toilets or empty garbage for a living.
No one's saying the government should bail out failed business.
We're saying that people who grow up in hugely disadvantaged areas need extra help along the way to keep them on the right track and help them attempt to be successful despite these obstacles. After school programming to keep them off the streets, tutoring to help them learn, and programs to get them into college and help them succeed despite educational deficiencies from growing up in a terrible environment, make sure they're not blocked from jobs because of their race, or denied business loans etc.
It's not the government's job to make people successful without any hard work of their own or to bail them out if they fail. It should be it's job to help the disadvantage beat the extra obstacles they face to give them a better chance that their hard work will pay off.
That's what I support as a compassionate person who cares about the worse off, vs. self interested people who don't care that a vicious cycle of poverty keeps people down despite of their own hardwork and that many kids fall through the cracks and get on the wrong path due to the harsh environment they live in.
The government shouldn't give them their success, but they should give them a helping hand to stay on the right path and overcome obstacles they face that the rest of us did not.
The people scrubbing toilets and doing other crappy, low paying jobs should be ups who were too lazy to succeed or are suffering the ills of their own poor decisions. Not people who wanted to succeed but got pulled down by being born in poverty, not able to get into or afford to go to a good college, or blocked from opportunities because of their race. The first deserve nothing, but for the latter the government should do what it can to reduce these inequalities in society and to help those unfortunate to be born in such conditions to overcome these obstacles and stay on the right path.
We're saying that people who grow up in hugely disadvantaged areas need extra help along the way to keep them on the right track and help them attempt to be successful despite these obstacles. After school programming to keep them off the streets, tutoring to help them learn, and programs to get them into college and help them succeed despite educational deficiencies from growing up in a terrible environment, make sure they're not blocked from jobs because of their race, or denied business loans etc.
It's not the government's job to make people successful without any hard work of their own or to bail them out if they fail. It should be it's job to help the disadvantage beat the extra obstacles they face to give them a better chance that their hard work will pay off.
That's what I support as a compassionate person who cares about the worse off, vs. self interested people who don't care that a vicious cycle of poverty keeps people down despite of their own hardwork and that many kids fall through the cracks and get on the wrong path due to the harsh environment they live in.
The government shouldn't give them their success, but they should give them a helping hand to stay on the right path and overcome obstacles they face that the rest of us did not.
The people scrubbing toilets and doing other crappy, low paying jobs should be
ups who were too lazy to succeed or are suffering the ills of their own poor decisions. Not people who wanted to succeed but got pulled down by being born in poverty, not able to get into or afford to go to a good college, or blocked from opportunities because of their race. The first deserve nothing, but for the latter the government should do what it can to reduce these inequalities in society and to help those unfortunate to be born in such conditions to overcome these obstacles and stay on the right path.
mykevermin
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[quote name='bmulligan']In myke's ideal world, we'll all go to college and get awesome paying jobs when we graduate, never having to clean toilets or empty garbage for a living.[/QUOTE]
In myke's ideal world, the people who *should* be scrubbing toilets won't have a buffer from their deserved placement as a complete socialup on account of the trust fund that's keeping their heads above water.
You truly are a clueless troll, aren't you?
In myke's ideal world, the people who *should* be scrubbing toilets won't have a buffer from their deserved placement as a complete social
up on account of the trust fund that's keeping their heads above water.You truly are a clueless troll, aren't you?
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='camoor']
You propose lowering the qualifications for jobs and educational opportunities based on the applicants race.
[/quote]
I definitely did not propose anything based on race. The conversation started about race, but is more about the economic setting than it is race. Unfortunately, those who are living below the poverty line are *mostly* minorities.
I think we're both getting at the same point but going about arguing our points differently.
Not being able to afford the opportunity to go to school, regardless of race/religion/etc is not acceptable in America. This is at the heart of the matter, and certainly must be addressed.
You propose lowering the qualifications for jobs and educational opportunities based on the applicants race.
[/quote]
I definitely did not propose anything based on race. The conversation started about race, but is more about the economic setting than it is race. Unfortunately, those who are living below the poverty line are *mostly* minorities.
I think we're both getting at the same point but going about arguing our points differently.
Not being able to afford the opportunity to go to school, regardless of race/religion/etc is not acceptable in America. This is at the heart of the matter, and certainly must be addressed.
elprincipe
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[quote name='nathansu'] Unfortunately, those who are living below the poverty line are *mostly* minorities.[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep repeating this even after I've shown you it's untrue?
Why do you keep repeating this even after I've shown you it's untrue?
[quote name='elprincipe']Why do you keep repeating this even after I've shown you it's untrue?[/QUOTE]
It's just a semantics issue. There are more whites under the poverty line than blacks (so they make up a higher percentage of total people under the poverty line) simply because there are a lot more whites in the population.
But a higher percentage of the black population are under the poverty line, when compared to the white population.
For instance, a quick google brought up this which has % of children living in poverty by race.
http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/#4
Whites: 10.1%
Blacks: 33.7%
Hispanics: 28.6%
Asian: 11.9%
So clearly, a larger percentage of black and Hispanic children are growing up in poverty compared to whites, and thus have additional obstacles to overcome to succeed at a greater rate the whites, not to mention dealing with racism.
It's just a semantics issue. There are more whites under the poverty line than blacks (so they make up a higher percentage of total people under the poverty line) simply because there are a lot more whites in the population.
But a higher percentage of the black population are under the poverty line, when compared to the white population.
For instance, a quick google brought up this which has % of children living in poverty by race.
http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/#4
Whites: 10.1%
Blacks: 33.7%
Hispanics: 28.6%
Asian: 11.9%
So clearly, a larger percentage of black and Hispanic children are growing up in poverty compared to whites, and thus have additional obstacles to overcome to succeed at a greater rate the whites, not to mention dealing with racism.
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[quote name='camoor']I don't know they the father had a college degree (at least anything recognized in America). Being that he was a former politician who took a quickie mart job I doubt it.[/QUOTE]
You were the one who said they came "from an educated, well-off family" and politicians tend to have college degrees, but anyway I guess they did have at some cash since that was the only part you responded to.
You were the one who said they came "from an educated, well-off family" and politicians tend to have college degrees, but anyway I guess they did have at some cash since that was the only part you responded to.
mykevermin
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The National Poverty Center has a liberal bias.
militantatheistaphob
CAG Veteran
Anyone heard of the Financial Crisis?
Minorities need "affordable housing"
Affirmative Action creates skyrocketing housing prices and predatory lending
Clinton and Bush cheer rising home ownership for minorities
Government coercion forces banks to make bad loans
Now many are suffering because of Affirmative Action
Yet you all call for more race based programs
The liberal worship of minorities knows no bounds
Minorities need "affordable housing"
Affirmative Action creates skyrocketing housing prices and predatory lending
Clinton and Bush cheer rising home ownership for minorities
Government coercion forces banks to make bad loans
Now many are suffering because of Affirmative Action
Yet you all call for more race based programs
The liberal worship of minorities knows no bounds
mykevermin
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I'm not convinced you can read, so this post may go to waste, but over 60-70% of all subprime loans were not covered under the CRA. Those banks weren't forced to do anything.
But you won't acknowledge that; your literacy being just one thing that gets in the way of the facts.
But you won't acknowledge that; your literacy being just one thing that gets in the way of the facts.
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='elprincipe']Why do you keep repeating this even after I've shown you it's untrue?[/quote]
Come to Los Angeles and do a survey in every single hood. If you can find 100 white people out of the millions in the hood, I'll give you a million bucks.
I've lived in various (good and bad) locations in LA. All of the bad areas (I've lived everywhere from Venice to East LA) there are almost zero white folks to be found.
Come to Los Angeles and do a survey in every single hood. If you can find 100 white people out of the millions in the hood, I'll give you a million bucks.
I've lived in various (good and bad) locations in LA. All of the bad areas (I've lived everywhere from Venice to East LA) there are almost zero white folks to be found.
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='militantatheistaphob']
Now many are suffering because of Affirmative Action
Yet you all call for more race based programs
The liberal worship of minorities knows no bounds[/quote]
I absolutely love how this isn't based on experience, facts, or any grounding in real life what so ever.
Reading neo-con talking points does not qualify as a decent argument.
Now many are suffering because of Affirmative Action
Yet you all call for more race based programs
The liberal worship of minorities knows no bounds[/quote]
I absolutely love how this isn't based on experience, facts, or any grounding in real life what so ever.
Reading neo-con talking points does not qualify as a decent argument.
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='dmaul1114']I think the thing here is that it's not, and shouldn't be, and either or situation.
Long term we need to fix inner city schools and work to reduce racism. Short term we need to do what we can to help people stuck living in poverty and attending schools in crappy districts to overcome those obstacles in the mean time.
Now I'm not sure race based AA is the way to go. The black suburban kid who attended a good school doesn't need much help. Again I really think we need some kind of complex system that helps out poor kids from bad school districts. Find someway to help them get into decent schools, pay for college and give them tutoring to help them succeed in college since they have an education gap to make up from attending a crappy school.
But long term the key is to fix the public education system.[/quote]
I agree.
I think income levels are a better way to go about it. Even if we were to do that, people would still be crying about it being race based since the vast majority of the people who would be benefiting from this program would be minorities. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
Fixing public education in this country would be a good way to start. There is need, though, for social programs to help people who can't afford basic "luxuries" of life such as attending college.
Long term we need to fix inner city schools and work to reduce racism. Short term we need to do what we can to help people stuck living in poverty and attending schools in crappy districts to overcome those obstacles in the mean time.
Now I'm not sure race based AA is the way to go. The black suburban kid who attended a good school doesn't need much help. Again I really think we need some kind of complex system that helps out poor kids from bad school districts. Find someway to help them get into decent schools, pay for college and give them tutoring to help them succeed in college since they have an education gap to make up from attending a crappy school.
But long term the key is to fix the public education system.[/quote]
I agree.
I think income levels are a better way to go about it. Even if we were to do that, people would still be crying about it being race based since the vast majority of the people who would be benefiting from this program would be minorities. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
Fixing public education in this country would be a good way to start. There is need, though, for social programs to help people who can't afford basic "luxuries" of life such as attending college.
[quote name='mykevermin']In myke's ideal world, the people who *should* be scrubbing toilets won't have a buffer from their deserved placement as a complete social up on account of the trust fund that's keeping their heads above water.
You truly are a clueless troll, aren't you?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I guess my first analysis was correct, but incomplete. After everyone gets out of State College and gets the good paying jobs, only the heretics will be made to perform manual labor. Did I say heretics? I meant traitors. Same difference.
Can you make a living on payback, revenge and politics of envy? That's a nice niche you're carving out for yourself, myke. It will serve you well and gain you a respected position in the Politburo. You'll have to turn in many of your friends and colleagues to prove your loyalty to the party, though.
up on account of the trust fund that's keeping their heads above water.You truly are a clueless troll, aren't you?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I guess my first analysis was correct, but incomplete. After everyone gets out of State College and gets the good paying jobs, only the heretics will be made to perform manual labor. Did I say heretics? I meant traitors. Same difference.
Can you make a living on payback, revenge and politics of envy? That's a nice niche you're carving out for yourself, myke. It will serve you well and gain you a respected position in the Politburo. You'll have to turn in many of your friends and colleagues to prove your loyalty to the party, though.
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='bmulligan']Sorry, I guess my first analysis was correct, but incomplete. After everyone gets out of State College and gets the good paying jobs, only the heretics will be made to perform manual labor. Did I say heretics? I meant traitors. Same difference.
Can you make a living on payback, revenge and politics of envy? That's a nice niche you're carving out for yourself, myke. It will serve you well and gain you a respected position in the Politburo. You'll have to turn in many of your friends and colleagues to prove your loyalty to the party, though.[/QUOTE]
Failtroll fails. Hard.
Can you make a living on payback, revenge and politics of envy? That's a nice niche you're carving out for yourself, myke. It will serve you well and gain you a respected position in the Politburo. You'll have to turn in many of your friends and colleagues to prove your loyalty to the party, though.[/QUOTE]
Failtroll fails. Hard.
[quote name='nathansu']Failtroll fails. Hard.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that's the best you can do? Myke, you either have to start paying your friends more, or at least send them to better strong-arm training seminars.
These newcomers are really dragging down the left's IQ average.
Wow, that's the best you can do? Myke, you either have to start paying your friends more, or at least send them to better strong-arm training seminars.
These newcomers are really dragging down the left's IQ average.
nathansu
Banned
[quote name='bmulligan']Wow, that's the best you can do? Myke, you either have to start paying your friends more, or at least send them to better strong-arm training seminars.
These newcomers are really dragging down the left's IQ average.[/QUOTE]
It's the only response a troll deserves.
Failtroll fails at responding to any valid points.
These newcomers are really dragging down the left's IQ average.[/QUOTE]
It's the only response a troll deserves.
Failtroll fails at responding to any valid points.
elprincipe
CAGiversary!
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[quote name='dmaul1114']It's just a semantics issue.[/QUOTE]
Hold it right there. It is NOT a semantics issue. You are claiming something that is untrue. If you said "a greater proportion of blacks and Hispanics are in poverty than whites and Asians," I would agree with you. It's fact. But you are saying there are "more" blacks and Hispanics in poverty than whites. This is not true at all, and yes, it does make what you say mean something completely different.
Hold it right there. It is NOT a semantics issue. You are claiming something that is untrue. If you said "a greater proportion of blacks and Hispanics are in poverty than whites and Asians," I would agree with you. It's fact. But you are saying there are "more" blacks and Hispanics in poverty than whites. This is not true at all, and yes, it does make what you say mean something completely different.
bread's done