RPG Thread XVI Supports Project Eternity's Kickstarter

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Finished Catherine.

Thought the overall structure of the game was a bit boring, especially the bar even though I loved the initial vibe of it. Not much of a impressive connection between the puzzles, the story, and your choices, and nothing very exciting occurs until the last parts of the game. Just Vincent moping around. And the final confessionals were basically saying to me, "okay, so this whole game was bullshit, now what ending do you want?"

Still, great sense of humor, has an interesting message to it, and the block moving was actual a lot of fun and I ended up appreciating the challenge. My ending sucked but I looked up the other ones and the evil ones were hilarious. Certainly don't regret trying it out.
 
The Nameless One has a monologue about the extended cut at the end of Planescape Torment.

Have you played the EC? There's really not too much to say about it, but I can say it anyway if you wish.
 
i haven't even looked into it nor do i ever plan to. i figured they couldn't really fix anything after reading your previous analysis.

so i guess there's not much to say. .
 
They do actually fix a thing or two. A couple noteworthy additions and one actual "Holy fuck, we must have been living on a diet of zoomers and rubbing alcohol when we wrote that the first time." change.

I guess I can do a write-up when I'm done eating. After a long season, my bile ducts need clearing out.
 
It seemed relevant at the time to ask.

I feel like starting Tales of Graces f, but I've never started Tales of Vesperia.

Which one is not better than the other so I can play that one first?
 
Alright, so I just re-read the old rant, and it looks like I was actually a little bit off on a couple of minor details. Nothing significant enough for me to really go over it.

So.

Part Eight: Mulligan

I'm going to go over the additions/changes all nice and chonological-like, but there's one bit that doesn't fit in nicely. Bioware lowered the EMS requirements so that people like me who don't want to fuck around in multiplayer or play some iPhone game or some shit to get the "best" ending. So, thanks for that. I guess.

The first major difference that I noticed came during the charge on the beam. Half-way down the hill you get tossed in to a cutscene where, depending on your EMS, your companions are either evaporated or just severely fucked up, forcing you to call the Normandy to evacuate them. This scene worked really well, with my best alien-bro dragging my blood-covered love interest up the ramp as she tried to push him away and limp back to my side. Explaining the amazing teleporting squadmates and giving me a nice "goodbye" scene? Well done.

Not perfect, though. It's kind of weird seeing the Normandy sitting, like, 100 meters from the beam for a couple minutes. Harbinger doesn't even try to shoot at it, so maybe we should have all just tried to air drop on to the beam? And a bunch of marines come running out of the ship and they shoot their guns at nothing in particular then they run back on because... they were in the middle of a really intense game of Catan, I guess. Still, two forward versus one back.

Then you get up the beam and you have the conversation with The Illusive Man and that hasn't changed any and god damn does that bit ever show off the weakness of the dialogue wheel. It plays out like Bioware was trying to imitate that one awesome boss fight from Planescape Torment where the real fight wasn't the fight but the conversation that preceded it, but... dialogue wheel. Always know what the right thing to say is, even if you're never certain what it is you're saying. Bleh.

Anyway, that part always struck me as really awkwardly animated. Anderson looks like he's trying to work out some sort of muscle cramp or something and god damn Shepard, that can't be the most comfortable standing pose for anyone, ever.

Moving on up the beam, we get to the infamous "starchild". You'll recall that last time, I devoted a lot of SHAQ-FU!s to not being able to ask it any questions about the three choices it was giving me. So now we can ask questions. One question for each of them. And it's the wrong god damn question for two of them.

But hey, there are still improvements! They actually flat-out changed something. He doesn't mention exploding mass relays anymore, so Shepard no longer looks like an omnicidal fucking lunatic for not having any qualms about blowing them up. And when you do pick your redgreenblue, the explosions go from "galaxy-destroying huge" to "a few small chunks break off and a big light comes out". So, there's that.

There's also something else I asked for, the option to reject all of those choices. Unfortunately, it ends up being the Milhouse van Houten of all the endings - you're basically just told that you lose, then some new stargazer says that future civilizations found Liara's beacons and won and don't forget to buy the Leviathan DLC. The other endings get some extra footage, most of it generic aliens looking happy and the fleet being told to flee (explaining the crash landing in the jungle), and the Normandy flying away from the new planet with a bunch of extra names added on to the wall of dead.

So where do we end up? One small but extraordinarily distracting plothole gets a satisfying conclusion, albeit one that introduces a bit of new confusion. I've gone from having no fucking idea what any of my choices do to understanding half of them. And I'm no longer blowing up Earth and pretty much every other inhabited planet just by completing the game.

So that's cool, I guess.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']Vesperia is FAR superior to Graces. Graces does have a better battle system than Vesperia, but Vesperia does every single thing else better.[/QUOTE]

I second this.
 
[quote name='kainzero']i see planescape and as expected a wild the crotch appears[/QUOTE]
?

I thought I was the only one who mentioned Planescape. Did I miss something?
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']Vesperia is FAR superior to Graces. Graces does have a better battle system than Vesperia, but Vesperia does every single thing else better.[/QUOTE]

No, Vesperia's side quest system is retarded. How the hell is somebody supposed to do this stuff without some type of guide or spending countless hours talking to random people and still not figuring out that you actually advanced some side quest because there was absolutely no indication what so ever?

Characters, story and flow though... yes, I agree.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']Vesperia is FAR superior to Graces. Graces does have a better battle system than Vesperia, but Vesperia does every single thing else better.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I enjoyed both (just finished up Graces a day ago) but had a far better experience with Vesperia, arguably my favorite Tales game and I've played quite a few.

I've been playing Kingdom Hearts 3D. I've been enjoying the combat and dream eater system, but the "drop" system where after a certain amount of time you automatically switch characters no matter what you are doing is just plain stupid and may be a deal breaker for me...
 
Anyone play Radiata Stories? Is it any good? Or any of the Wild Arms? Been thinking of getting both (Or one of the WA, for that matter).

Just got to disc 3 of FF8. I have about... 26 hours on it? Loving it so far. The junction thing confused me for a bit, though. Such a stupid system, but I like how it gives some sort of freedom.
 
[quote name='Luxuria']Anyone play Radiata Stories? Is it any good? Or any of the Wild Arms? Been thinking of getting both (Or one of the WA, for that matter).

Just got to disc 3 of FF8. I have about... 26 hours on it? Loving it so far. The junction thing confused me for a bit, though. Such a stupid system, but I like how it gives some sort of freedom.[/QUOTE]

If you enjoy FF8 your taste is obviously very different from mine but I really couldn't get into Radiata Stories. Wild Arms as a series has been pretty much meh, I played through the first few and didn't even try the last couple.
 
[quote name='Rodimus']Why do you want to play the worst Tales of game? Play FFXIII again if you're a masochist.[/QUOTE]

I'd rather play Legendia than Tales of Symphonia 2... Oh god, the memories.
 
[quote name='Luxuria']Anyone play Radiata Stories? Is it any good? Or any of the Wild Arms? Been thinking of getting both (Or one of the WA, for that matter).

Just got to disc 3 of FF8. I have about... 26 hours on it? Loving it so far. The junction thing confused me for a bit, though. Such a stupid system, but I like how it gives some sort of freedom.[/QUOTE]

Love me some FF8!

Radiata Stories: Loved the characters/art style, but the OCD/completionist in me got frustrated by trying to recruit all the characters and gave up. If I wasn't so dead set on trying to see everything in one playthrough (the guide didn't really help) I think I'd have kept it up.

WA3: Fun, and I enjoyed the cell shaded graphics. Cool light puzzle solving in dungeons using character specific skills (ala Breath of Fire series). Never did finish it, even though I started it twice and got decently far both times.

WA4: Shite. Complete and utter crap. I tried to like it, I really did, but the characters were boring, the "innovative" battle system was just tedious, and the plot was cliche AND boring (I can deal with one or the other, not both).

Not really a "true" RPG, but Darksiders II is the tits!
 
[quote name='Luxuria']Just got to disc 3 of FF8. I have about... 26 hours on it? Loving it so far. The junction thing confused me for a bit, though. Such a stupid system, but I like how it gives some sort of freedom.[/QUOTE]

Junctions are awesome
if you don't ever cast magic.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']FFXIII so good

one day the rage will be over and it will be fairly recognized[/QUOTE]

While FFXIII does has its issues, I also think the dislike for it is over the top. It is also funny considering the like some here are showing for FFVIII, which was considered a big disappointment when it came out.

I'm still in the middle of Riviera on my PSP. Overall, it is an enjoyable little game that is well designed for a portable system. The whole, "you can only bring 4 items from your inventory, including weapons, into battle" is still kinda strange to me, but it becomes a challenge in inventory management to decide what to keep and what to toss. I'm not really liking the QTE aspect of the game, but I'm good enough at it to deal.

I like how the game tells you when the ladies have hit the hot springs, then curbstomps you when you try to go see them.
 
[quote name='GhostShark']Is it OK if I dislike both XIII and VIII?[/QUOTE]

Yeah their both pretty bad if you ask me.While the Junction System was a unique system,that didn't make it good,along with the whole boring and tedious process of drawing.Don't see why VIII gets so much love,yet IX gets a lot of hate.
 
Needed a break from P3 FES' "The Answer". The upped difficulty has been manageable so far, but I'm at the point where I have barely any Homunculi and certain enemies cast both Hama and Mudo spells. Good ol' SMT!

So i started Fortune Summoners yesterday. It's basically a simple side-scrolling action RPG. It also seems to be more moe than Recettear and Chantelise combined. JAPAN!

[quote name='themaster20000']Don't see why VIII gets so much love,yet IX gets a lot of hate.[/QUOTE]
VIII gets a lot of love? I like it, but there are some very valid complaints out there about the Junction system and especially the characters (except for the Laguna Crew; love 'em so much) and story. Must be Triple Triad, which is genuinely awesome. Chocobo Hot and Cold is a lot of fun too, though ;)

As for Radiata Stories, I too spent a lot of time recruiting as many characters as possible, but found it to be not really doable, especially given the sparse and poorly thought-out save point locations. The battle system is neat, but I ended up using just one or two formations for much of the game. The story is... kind of silly. Music and visuals are both very good.

The only Wild Arms I've played is 5, which was pretty average. Liked the battle system and the story was decent, but the dungeons were somewhat boring design-wise, and the overworld was brown, brown, brown. However, I would choose it over Radiata, if it was between those two.
 
I only liked the opening of IX. Other than that, the battles were really slow, the limit breaking was silly, Kuja was dumb. Vivi definitely carried that game on his tiny shoulders, bless his heart.

And VIII was just nuts, don't even know what to say about it. I'm 100% behind that Squall is dead theory.
 
Is Fallout New Vegas much worse for Playstation 3 than Xbox 360?

Gamestop has the PS3 version for only 12.99 compared to 19.99 for the other version.
 
To follow everyone else's comments.

I liked FF8. Disliked 9. Won't even bother trying FF 13.

Liked WA 3. Disliked 4. Didnt finish it.

Something must be wrong if we're still discussing RPGs from the previous generation and not the current one.
 
[quote name='eldergamer']To follow everyone else's comments.

I liked FF8. Disliked 9. Won't even bother trying FF 13.

Liked WA 3. Disliked 4. Didnt finish it.

Something must be wrong if we're still discussing RPGs from the previous generation and not the current one.[/QUOTE]

FF8 and 9 are two generations ago.
 
I liked Skies of Arcadia, fun game to revisit.

Just beat L&L on Tales of Graces f, wishing there were more Tales games on the PS3 now, or heck any "classic" RPG...Xillia is still pretty far off and importing Vesperia wouldn't do me good since I couldn't read it.

Instead of NG+ on Graces, think I'll just dust off PS2 and play DQ8 or Tales of the Abyss. Save NG+ Graces for another time, so it seems more fresh.

[quote name='eldergamer']Something must be wrong if we're still discussing RPGs from the previous generation and not the current one.[/QUOTE]

Yup, it's all main stream RPGs now like Oblivion, Skyrim, and Mass Effect. The classic style is dying unless you have a PSP or DS.

So it's popular to hate on FFXIII and love on FFVII. Well I had no major gripes with FFXIII and FFVII was clouded with nostalgia for when it first game out (omg first "3D" FF syndrome). I've tried to go back and play FFVII and I can't. Even if you skip chocobo raising and other side quests, the game feels tedious.

Now FFVIII holds up better imo. Junctioning magic to your weapons can get very powerful. Only thing I hated was if junctioned a different summon you lose points with old one gradually. Triple Triad. Scew Tetra Master ****.


Is there any hate on FFXII? Well I will. It's basically "FFXI Offline mode". The main character has no point, if you removed him from the game, the story (and battle, just use Basch) would be the same. Yes the other characters are cool, but the story and all political crap bored me.

The license system had no point other than to double charge you to equip a new weapon/armor/magic, but then you max it out halfway through the game anyway.

Farming. fuck that. First to pop certain mobs you need to spend 1-3 hours, then it has a 1% drop rate on the item you need. I liked the hunt system as it had a lot of variety, but most of the time you need a guide. Chests, some you have to leave closed or you miss out on certain things, what kind of torture is that?!

The battle system is too good that it ruins it. All you do is set each character with macros, then set down the controller and watch. You don't even have to move around since the macro has "nearest foe" in it. Walk around a dungeon, repeat.
 
I think FFVII is one of the more popular ones to hate on these days. fucking hipsters. None of those god damn games aged well, not even VI.

And what is this distinction between "classic" and "mainstream" RPGs? The Elder Scrolls has been around since the mid 90s, and you can trace its lineage much further back without too much work.
 
[quote name='Rodimus']Why do you want to play the worst Tales of game? Play FFXIII again if you're a masochist.[/QUOTE]
Worst? I don't think so. The only thing bad about Legendia is the battle system and even that's not that bad. The characters and music are the best in the series. The main plot is a bit weak, but that's fine since it's a game about the characters.
[quote name='Luxuria']Anyone play Radiata Stories? Is it any good? Or any of the Wild Arms? Been thinking of getting both (Or one of the WA, for that matter).[/QUOTE]
I hated Radiata Stories. Such a bad game. As for Wild Arms that series is all over the place. First one was ok, second one was bad, third one was good, I loved the 4th one (my favorite in the series), and the fifth one was ok.

[quote name='Draekon']I'd rather play Legendia than Tales of Symphonia 2... Oh god, the memories.[/QUOTE]
I'd rather play anything than ToS2. What a piece of shit.
[quote name='The Crotch'] None of those god damn games aged well, not even VI.[/QUOTE]
FFIV aged pretty well for me. Still my favorite in the series.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']I think FFVII is one of the more popular ones to hate on these days. fucking hipsters. None of those god damn games aged well, not even VI.[/QUOTE]
it might be my bias towards 16-bit spritework but i really think that they were able to convey much more with those graphics than they did with ff7.

story-wise i feel the same, simple stories carried greater impact than the current complex ones we have now.

hey remember that starwars episode 1 criticism where they said it's extremely important to be able to identify a character with a few choice words without physically describing them?

you can easily define locke (dashing, rogue), cyan (honorable knight)... but you go to like fran and it's like... what? err...

from a game mechanics point of view, it's balanced for the most part if you take out the bugs like vanish-doom. because it's not as complex as, say, resonance of fate, it becomes much easier to balance and make sense of and you can concentrate on the simple, familiar, and quick strategy of the game instead of experiencing tutorials 10 hours in the game and still trying to figure out how it works.

i think the mechanics in the psx generation are much better than this generation, mainly because it was right before they decided to become really complex for no reason.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Good games don't age. But hype and hate trains? Those eventually run out of steam.[/QUOTE]

The hype machine that is FFVII disagrees. :cool:
 
Sure they age. Planescape is a glorious game, but it's aged. Fallout has aged. Brood War, Half-Life, X-COM, System Shock... damn near every game you ever hear me compliment has been weakened by time. A lot of it is in UI and pathfinding. Antiquated mechanics and conventions. Graphics, obviously, though that depends a lot on the style.

Some games do better at defying the age thing, granted. Super Metroid, Super Mario, Link to the Past. Like kain said, the 16-bit sprites get old with grace, but that's only part of it.
 
[quote name='kainzero']the only thing i remember in radiata stories is kicking people.
i forgot what it even does.[/QUOTE]
For the life of me, I can't remember either.

[quote name='Kazaganthi']So it's popular to hate on FFXIII and love on FFVII. Well I had no major gripes with FFXIII and FFVII was clouded with nostalgia for when it first game out (omg first "3D" FF syndrome). I've tried to go back and play FFVII and I can't. Even if you skip chocobo raising and other side quests, the game feels tedious.

Now FFVIII holds up better imo. Junctioning magic to your weapons can get very powerful. Only thing I hated was if junctioned a different summon you lose points with old one gradually. Triple Triad. Scew Tetra Master ****.[/QUOTE]
I prefer Materia to Junctions. Materia is like a super-flexible version of the Job system. Junction is similar in that respect, but then you max everything out and don't want to use magic-- at all-- because of that. That kind of sucks

Quick quasi-tangent: not long ago I realized that in some ways, FFVII is one of the most wildly experimental games in the FF series. It has a bit of old-fashionedness (MIDI music) mixed with some new stuff (FMVs!), and sometimes the old and new get smashed together in interesting ways (3D "sprites"). This haphazard old-meets-new approach is probably the main reason why FFVII has aged poorly, but it's also what makes it unique.

In general, I prefer FFVII over FFVIII in just about all but one respect: the soundtrack. FFVIII's OST as a whole is better than FFVII's. It's also better than FFIX's and just about every soundtrack in the series since then.

[quote name='The Crotch']I think FFVII is one of the more popular ones to hate on these days. fucking hipsters. None of those god damn games aged well, not even VI.

And what is this distinction between "classic" and "mainstream" RPGs? The Elder Scrolls has been around since the mid 90s, and you can trace its lineage much further back without too much work.[/QUOTE]
It's more like console JRPGs versus console WRPGs. That WRPGs are on consoles and that they're good is an amazing thing-- it's like console FPSes ten years ago. Makes me wonder what the next traditionally PC-centric genre to hit it big on consoles will be.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Sure they age. Planescape is a glorious game, but it's aged. Fallout has aged. Brood War, Half-Life, X-COM, System Shock... damn near every game you ever hear me compliment has been weakened by time. A lot of it is in UI and pathfinding. Antiquated mechanics and conventions. Graphics, obviously, though that depends a lot on the style.

Some games do better at defying the age thing, granted. Super Metroid, Super Mario, Link to the Past. Like kain said, the 16-bit sprites get old with grace, but that's only part of it.[/QUOTE]

Neh, I look at it differently. If a game comes out and we ignore its flaws and the aspects that annoy us simply because it's the best the industry currently has to offer, then that's being dishonest from the start.

If your UI and pathing is unwieldy, then it is and always was unwieldy. People are going to pop in Uncharted 2 in the year 2025 and say, "wow the shooting has aged poorly" -- but the gunplay always sucked. We can see that now, we just overlook it because no one can name a better tomb raider clone at the moment.

Current technology is your limitation, how well you work around those limits is what defines a great game developer. Whoever dealt with the pathing in Broodwar knew it was a problem, but said fuck it because dragoons are awesome enough to make up for it. It annoyed me a decade ago and it annoys me today, still the best RTS on the market.

maybe i'm coming across as idealistic but i don't go back to games like FFVII and pretend that shit used to be barrels of fun back in the day.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Neh, I look at it differently. If a game comes out and we ignore its flaws and the aspects that annoy us simply because it's the best the industry currently has to offer, then that's being dishonest from the start.

If your UI and pathing is unwieldy, then it is and always was unwieldy. People are going to pop in Uncharted 2 in the year 2025 and say, "wow the shooting has aged poorly" -- but the gunplay always sucked. We can see that now, we just overlook it because no one can name a better tomb raider clone at the moment.

Current technology is your limitation, how well you work around those limits is what defines a great game developer. Whoever dealt with the pathing in Broodwar knew it was a problem, but said fuck it because dragoons are awesome enough to make up for it. It annoyed me a decade ago and it annoys me today, still the best RTS on the market.

maybe i'm coming across as idealistic but i don't go back to games like FFVII and pretend that shit used to be barrels of fun back in the day.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I can't see even the biggest fanboy of Planescape denying that there were some big problems with the game. The story and characters carry it, but the game itself never was that great, which is why I never finished it.

I will disagree with The Crotch about X-COM, tho. I think that game has aged well over the years. No one has captured the balance of squad-level combat mixed with the ever escalating threat like that game.
 
There is ignoring the flaws, and there is not recognizing them. When I last played FFVII, I was surprised by how terrible the translation was. This isn't because I simply didn't care about it the first time I played, but because I was young and stupid and not so good at picking up on those things. At age eight or nine or fifteen or whatever I did not even fathom that you could have an RPG without save points. I did not understand balance or UI design or... a lot of things, really. Part of this was my own age, and part of it was that I simply hadn't seen it done differently so I didn't - couldn't - recognize it as a flaw.

As for X-Com's flaws? Some technological limitations, some bugs, some balance issues (too many useless things on both your and the aliens' side), and a clumsy god damn UI.
 
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