SAACHU ANDO DESUTOROI!! Anime & Manga Thread Lives Again

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[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I honestly couldn't care less.

1. Even subs aren't exact translations

2. The dub isn't some wildly different translation that has nothing to do with the show.

Anime fans get a little ridiculous with their complaints sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Normally I'd agree with you, but I feel that dubtitles fall far outside the "nitpicking" category. I suppose my biggest gripe with them is that it's just fricking *lazy*, but that aside, they can often result in a very different translation when compared to an authentic Japanese subtitle track. As the person above me said, accuracy is often sacrificed in the dubbing process to match the lip-flaps, and to carry over those changes to what *should* be a real subtitle track is asinine. The differences in spoken dialog versus the dubtitles in Advent Children were extremely off-putting for me, as someone who understands the language. Maybe you can't tell the difference, but I sure can. Come to think of it, I think Sony has yet to *not* botch one of their releases. Shameful.

[quote name='refusedchaos']hey are the series Peacekeeper and Crest of Stars anygood?[/QUOTE]
Peacemaker sucks out loud. Crest/Banner of the Stars is decent, so long as you're watching the Japanese language version. The dub was abysmal.
 
[quote name='assassinX']What anime is GuilewasNK's signature from?[/quote]

*gasp* You haven't seen the Melancoly of Haruhi Suzumiya yet? Go see it now!
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I honestly couldn't care less.

1. Even subs aren't exact translations

2. The dub isn't some wildly different translation that has nothing to do with the show.

Anime fans get a little ridiculous with their complaints sometimes.[/quote]


Try being a Star Trek fan also, like me. :lol:
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']
Peacemaker sucks out loud. Crest/Banner of the Stars is decent, so long as you're watching the Japanese language version. The dub was abysmal.[/QUOTE]

haha well im getting both rly rly rly cheap ($10) so meh, ill try to survive. cant be worse than Avenger:lol:
 
[quote name='mkg12']These complaints are valid. It has the potential to make a big difference. In order to make the lips and time spans sync, a lot of accuracy may be sacrificed.

1. Subs tend to be a much closer translation.(Less loss of details and maybe reduced change in plot)

2. Differences can be make undesirable alterations to the story.

Of course it does depend strongly on how the particular company handles the dubbing of the anime. Personally, I would prefer translations of the Japanese for my subtitles and if I wanted dubs, I would just listen to the dubs.[/QUOTE]
Sure, I'd prefer a proper sub. But it's not going to deter me from buying the show. I knew beforehand about this situation, and having watched some of it already, it sticks very close to the original language except for those instances when a name is used instead of a title. Such as saying the person's name instead of something like "brother."

Sorry, but I'm just not the picky about that. As long as the story is kept the same, and there are no wild changes I really don't see it mattering. It's not like the show is suddenly about Saya becoming a ballroom dancer.

I just find the complaints funny because as someone who does know some Japanese, and is married to a Japanese woman, we notice that subs are usually just as different as dubs are. So yes, I do prefer subs but I prefer them for the language being spoken. Because either option is going to get you a translation that has been made to flow better in English.
i found it to be boring... but how much didi u pick it up for?
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$79 at Best Buy. Pretty good for the first 25 episodes and a T-shirt.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku'] It's not like the show is suddenly about Saya becoming a ballroom dancer.[/quote]

:lol:


BTW, I love the Promo Cartoon Network did for Blood+.

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myz-gbRYS5o[/MEDIA]

Love that song and they have a free, legal download on adultswim's site.
 
[quote name='assassinX']I guess its time to check out this Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya now. Thanks.[/quote]

There's 3 ways to watch this series though. According to wikipedia:

The episodes of the anime were aired in a nonlinear order: The prologue and seven chapters of the first novel, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, are arranged into six episodes that were kept in order, but arranged in between these were episodes taken from chapters of some of the later novels. During the previews for the next episode, two different numbers for the following episode are given: one number from Haruhi, who numbers the episodes according to where they actually fit chronologically in the plot, and one number from Kyon, who numbers the episodes in the order in which they aired. The sole exception is episode twelve, which is both the twelfth episode aired and the twelfth episode chronologically, a fact Kyon mentions in the preview.[2] Both the Japanese and English standard edition DVD releases use "The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina Episode 00" as the first episode, but otherwise follow the chronological order.[3] The episodes are distributed throughout the volumes as follows: episodes one through four in volume one, episodes five through eight in volume two, episodes nine through eleven in volume three, and episodes twelve through fourteen in volume four.[4] The title menu of the English standard edition DVD release lists the episodes starting with "00", such that the menu number is one less than the listed episode number.[5]
Click to expand...

I highly recommend watching the broadcast airing order first as it gives it a pulp fiction/memento feel while the other 2 give it a traditional anime vibe.
 
I've never actually watched the show linearly. I don't think I'd like it. The broadcast order was just so awesome it'd feel weird to actually see the episodes in the actual chronological order.
Seeing The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya Part 6 at the end of the series was just the perfect ending to the series. Having it happen in the middle of the series would just be bizarre now to me. Although I suppose the episode where they share an umbrella provides a different sort of closure...
 
[quote name='karsh']I've never actually watched the show linearly. I don't think I'd like it. The broadcast order was just so awesome it'd feel weird to actually see the episodes in the actual chronological order.
Seeing The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya Part 6 at the end of the series was just the perfect ending to the series. Having it happen in the middle of the series would just be bizarre now to me. Although I suppose the episode where they share an umbrella provides a different sort of closure...
[/quote]

It's definitely a little weird compared to the way they aired.
 
Not really anime-ish, but finished watching Appleseed Ex Machina last night.

Better than the first one in most areas, but I have one question:

Why is Hitler in it?

heilbioroidoc7.jpg
 
[quote name='karsh']I've never actually watched the show linearly. I don't think I'd like it. The broadcast order was just so awesome it'd feel weird to actually see the episodes in the actual chronological order.
Seeing The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya Part 6 at the end of the series was just the perfect ending to the series. Having it happen in the middle of the series would just be bizarre now to me. Although I suppose the episode where they share an umbrella provides a different sort of closure...
[/quote]

Yeah, the tone is definitely a lot more different in chrono order. The ending is a bit underwhelming compared to the broadcast order.
 
Fav Haruhi ep...The one with the music performance.

As another nihongo-inclined CAG I can't stand dubs.
I haven't watched a dub in over a decade and hopefully never will.
 
[quote name='Kuroi Kaze']As another nihongo-inclined CAG I can't stand dubs.
I haven't watched a dub in over a decade and hopefully never will.[/QUOTE]
Your loss, since there are some *fantastic* dubs out there that are way better than the original Japanese language track.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']Your loss, since there are some *fantastic* dubs out there that are way better than the original Japanese language track.[/QUOTE]
I have to agree with this, even though I don't like dubs either. Hellsing is a great example.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I have to agree with this, even though I don't like dubs either. Hellsing is a great example.[/QUOTE]
I'm a big fan of *good* dubs, which are becoming more common these days. If a show has a good dub, I'll happily watch it in English instead of Japanese. Let's see, off the top of my head, these shows are better in English...

Cowboy Bebop
Samurai Champloo
Beck
Hellsing/Hellsing Ultimate
Big O
Outlaw Star

And there are plenty of other shows that are equally great in both languages! I just think it's incredibly ignorant to hate on *all* dubs when there's a lot of quality work out there.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']I'm a big fan of *good* dubs, which are becoming more common these days. If a show has a good dub, I'll happily watch it in English instead of Japanese. Let's see, off the top of my head, these shows are better in English...

Cowboy Bebop
Samurai Champloo
Beck
Hellsing/Hellsing Ultimate
Big O
Outlaw Star

And there are plenty of other shows that are equally great in both languages! I just think it's incredibly ignorant to hate on *all* dubs when there's a lot of quality work out there.[/quote]

I agree. Dubs do seem to be getting better all the time.

The one thing that can bother me, even with a quality dub, is that the actors have almost certainly been in something else that I have watched. And while that's not a huge issue, sometimes I just wish the actors they have didn't do so many voices for so many shows.
 
[quote name='Rig']The one thing that can bother me, even with a quality dub, is that the actors have almost certainly been in something else that I have watched. And while that's not a huge issue, sometimes I just wish the actors they have didn't do so many voices for so many shows.[/QUOTE]
Japan has the same problem, but most Americans don't notice it as much because it's in a language they don't understand. I notice it all the time.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']Japan has the same problem, but most Americans don't notice it as much because it's in a language they don't understand. I notice it all the time.[/QUOTE]

I notice it from time to time with Japanese audio, as well... but the issue with dubs... and I noticed primarily with ADV, is that you can basically guess which voice actor will play which character in... any show that ADV releases, even before you watch it.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']Japan has the same problem, but most Americans don't notice it as much because it's in a language they don't understand. I notice it all the time.[/quote]

Yeah, I suppose that is the case. And I guess I can pick out *some* Japanese actors.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']There's 3 ways to watch this series though. According to wikipedia:



I highly recommend watching the broadcast airing order first as it gives it a pulp fiction/memento feel while the other 2 give it a traditional anime vibe.[/quote]

I am confused by your wikipedia quote. So how do I watch this.. by the chronological order, or by some other order? :hot: Maybe, riding the rollercoasters have gotten my head really dizzy and that was hard to understand.
 
[quote name='assassinX']I am confused by your wikipedia quote. So how do I watch this.. by the chronological order, or by some other order? :hot: Maybe, riding the rollercoasters have gotten my head really dizzy and that was hard to understand.[/quote]

Like I said, there's 3 ways to watch it. It's your choice. It's just that, depending on which way you watch them, the story plays out a bit differently. The first way (and the way most people saw it the first time) is by broadcast order. This is the order the episodes were shown on television. The reason they were shown this way is due to the creator's request for it to be so and the tv network obliged. The 2nd way to view it is the chronological way. This way you get to watch the story unfold as the events occur. What you get is a traditional (awesome but still not as cool as broadcast order) anime storyline. The 3rd way (DVD order or how it appears sequentially on the dvds) is closer to chronological order in that only one episode is out of sequence. What is episode 11 in the chronological order is episode 1 in the DVD but they are otherwise the same.

My own recommendation is to watch it like how most people watch it - broadcast order. It makes for a much better storyline & pacing. I'll list the orders of all 3. The numbers are all based on the DVD order meaning that were you to watch the anime in broadcast order, you'd use the DVD episode numbers as reference. Hope that isn't still confusing. Anyway:

DVD order - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
Chronological order - 11, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14
Broadcast order - 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 13, 14, 4, 7, 6, 8, 12, 11, 9

So, the 9th episode of the DVD order becomes the last episode of the broadcast order. I know it seems pretty confusing but, if you've got the dvds, there'll be an option for you there to see it in any of the 3 orders.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']

And there are plenty of other shows that are equally great in both languages! I just think it's incredibly ignorant to hate on *all* dubs when there's a lot of quality work out there.[/quote]

I have yet to hear any dub (Casual Adult Swim encounters) that didn't make me want to hurl. I just find American voice acting to be terrible, I guess.

The only show I watched on your list completely was Outlaw Star and the Japanese seemed good enough.

You're honestly saying that this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ELv_00AkQQc

Is the best of American voice acting? Really?

I'm not trying to be an elitist, I just think anime is best left in it's original format I guess. I would not enjoy watching XMen in Japanese I'd imagine.
 
[quote name='Kuroi Kaze']I have yet to hear any dub (Casual Adult Swim encounters) that didn't make me want to hurl. I just find American voice acting to be terrible, I guess.

The only show I watched on your list completely was Outlaw Star and the Japanese seemed good enough.

You're honestly saying that this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ELv_00AkQQc

Is the best of American voice acting? Really?

I'm not trying to be an elitist, I just think anime is best left in it's original format I guess. I would not enjoy watching XMen in Japanese I'd imagine.[/quote]

It may just be me, but I think Cowboy Bebop is one of the single best dubs out there. I've tried watching it subbed sometimes and it just won't work for me. The voices in the English version are just perfect. I also think FMA did an excellent job on the dubbed voices. Although that's one of the animes I can honestly watch in either language.

I'm getting closer and closer to the end of Gurren Lagann. On 22 right now, but my version isn't showing any subs so I'm very confused. This is definitely shaping up to be one of my favorite animes I've seen in a long while. I haven't been THIS drawn into a show since FMA.
 
[quote name='karsh']It may just be me, but I think Cowboy Bebop is one of the single best dubs out there. I've tried watching it subbed sometimes and it just won't work for me. The voices in the English version are just perfect. I also think FMA did an excellent job on the dubbed voices. Although that's one of the animes I can honestly watch in either language.

I'm getting closer and closer to the end of Gurren Lagann. On 22 right now, but my version isn't showing any subs so I'm very confused. This is definitely shaping up to be one of my favorite animes I've seen in a long while. I haven't been THIS drawn into a show since FMA.[/quote]

I agree w/ Cowboy Bebop being one of the few good (if not the best) dubs made. That said, I'd still prefer the fansubbed versions over a commecial sub/dub on most animes since they're made by fans. And fans tend to attempt to stay true to the source material unlike a corporate entity whose main goal is to make a profit so they'll adapt a storyline that appeals to the widest audience & that usually means appealing to the least common denominator (I'm looking at you 4kids).
 
[quote name='Kuroi Kaze']I have yet to hear any dub (Casual Adult Swim encounters) that didn't make me want to hurl. I just find American voice acting to be terrible, I guess.
.[/quote]
Its fine to not like dubs. But there are awesome ones:

Azumanga Daioh
Haibane Renmei
His and Her Circumstances
Fighting Spirit
Samurai 7
Gun X Sword
and the list goes on and on and on.

Also, RightStuf has 40% off all ADV DVDs right now. They still haven't solicited Sgt.Frog, so I'm not biting.
 
[quote name='Kuroi Kaze']I'm not trying to be an elitist, I just think anime is best left in it's original format I guess. I would not enjoy watching XMen in Japanese I'd imagine.[/quote]


I can respect that, but I tend to have that mentality for more important things like The Passion of the Christ where original language makes more sense. It's totally plausible for a lot of anime characters to speak Enlglish. It isn't for Jesus. I prefer dub because if I want to read I'll buy the manga (which I do buy a good amount).

Some I like sub and dub equally like like Haruhi, but I honestly can't say what I like about any Japanese track other that the sounds of the voices because I don't speak Japanese. Until I actually speak Japanese I will always prefer dub. That goes for my Jackie Chan films as well. English whenever possible. I don't want to read the screen while he is doing his thing on screen.

The only time I tend to be against dub if singing is involved in an anime. Dialogue in English for me, but unless you have english VA that can sing, please don't try to make them. Translating a song is a whole other animal compared to dialogue since timing and rhyming make a difference too.

I really wish Andrea Romano would get a shot at voice casting for anime (she may have and I didn't know, I'm not sure). Everything she has ever done has been solid. I'll take Kevin Conroy over Steve Blum any day of the week (I like Blum though).


[quote name='Azumangaman']Its fine to not like dubs. But there are awesome ones:

Also, RightStuf has 40% off all ADV DVDs right now. They still haven't solicited Sgt.Frog, so I'm not biting.[/quote]

My wallet needs a timeout. I still haven't got my GiTS S1, GiTS S2, Solid State Society, Noein, Tokko, Cowboy Bebop Remix Set, Outlaw Star Set or Please Twins Set in yet. I was kind of surprised an ADV sale came up so quickly after the last 25 for $100 sale.
 
[quote name='Kuroi Kaze']I have yet to hear any dub (Casual Adult Swim encounters) that didn't make me want to hurl.[/QUOTE]
Then you're obviously watching the wrong shows. *Most* of what gets put on Adult Swim is dubbed very, very well. Also, it's unfortunate that some of us have yet to outgrow making broad generalizations based on a few examples. Again, your loss.

[quote name='jaykrue']I agree w/ Cowboy Bebop being one of the few good (if not the best) dubs made. That said, I'd still prefer the fansubbed versions over a commecial sub/dub on most animes since they're made by fans. And fans tend to attempt to stay true to the source material unlike a corporate entity whose main goal is to make a profit so they'll adapt a storyline that appeals to the widest audience & that usually means appealing to the least common denominator (I'm looking at you 4kids).[/QUOTE]
This made me sad, since you're usually fairly intelligent. You know *full well* that a company like 4kids is very, very different from Geneon, ADV, Funimation, Bandai, and so on. Almost all commercial subs are 100% faithful and true to the original work. And in the case of 4kids, the kind of anime they license is rarely targeted towards us, so a dub-only, content-edited product makes sense to their demographic, with a few exceptions (most notably Shaman King and One Piece, the latter of which is being corrected by Funimation).

In fact, today's Answerman column on ANN addressed the misguided "fansubs are better" argument too:

[quote name='Answerman']Basically it's just posturing. If you don't actually speak the language beyond knowing a few basic phrases here and there, you have no business criticizing a translation whatsoever, aside from basic stylistic choices that stem from completely subjective personal standards. However, there is a massive rash of elitism among the fansub community, and "I don't speak Japanese but the fan translations are WAY more accurate than the translations on the DVDs I specifically go on and on about not ever buying!" is a popular meme in that crowd. It's another specious excuse why fansubs are superior to R1 DVD releases, and it's one of the most transparent because it's completely obvious that 99 percent of the people making that argument don't speak a lick of Japanese other than knowing what "baka" "neko" and "sugoi" mean.

Sadly it's been parroted so many times over the years that people take it as "common wisdom" that the fansubs are always more accurate and always better than R1 jobs. I won't argue that they never are - and I'm not saying that R1 translations are always better, even though I firmly believe in the notion that a paid professional is generally going to turn in better results than an amateur doing it for personal glory - but it's important to point out the rampant stupidity that leads to this being accepted as "common wisdom", and it's important to deflate the people who argue endlessly that because they prefer fan translations (for whatever reason) that means they are universally, objectively "better".

Frankly it's one of the more upsetting arguments I've seen tossed around over the years. If you don't actually speak the language that's being translated, you have zero credibility when criticizing the translation. Not to mention the fact that translation itself is an incredibly subjective task, one where the final result is based entirely on the personal choices made by the person who's doing the translation. It's not a precise science in any way - two people with the exact same knowledge and experience might translate the same sentence in two very different ways. The meaning will still be the same (and I should add that a lot of the negative criticism that gets passed around about translation jobs is based completely on obnoxious, self-righteous pedantry rather than legitimate sincere complaints about the meaning of the original dialogue being changed too much), and that's what's important.[/QUOTE]

Plus there's the fact that if you're not supporting the American anime companies and only sticking to fansubs and DVD rips, you're directly contributing to the death of the anime industry in this country. Over the last year, things have gotten pretty bad, and they'll only get worse if it keeps up.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']This made me sad, since you're usually fairly intelligent. You know *full well* that a company like 4kids is very, very different from Geneon, ADV, Funimation, Bandai, and so on. Almost all commercial subs are 100% faithful and true to the original work. And in the case of 4kids, the kind of anime they license is rarely targeted towards us, so a dub-only, content-edited product makes sense to their demographic, with a few exceptions (most notably Shaman King and One Piece, the latter of which is being corrected by Funimation).

In fact, today's Answerman column on ANN addressed the misguided "fansubs are better" argument too:



Plus there's the fact that if you're not supporting the American anime companies and only sticking to fansubs and DVD rips, you're directly contributing to the death of the anime industry in this country. Over the last year, things have gotten pretty bad, and they'll only get worse if it keeps up.[/quote]

I suppose I can't disagree w/ you on the newer stuff from Geneon, ADV, etc. but it doesn't forgive 4kids for their anime rape. One Piece & Shaman King really don't differ too much from other anime that occasionally tackle mature themes like Naruto.

I wouldn't give that Answerman article too much weight. First he says this:

Sadly it's been parroted so many times over the years that people take it as "common wisdom" that the fansubs are always more accurate and always better than R1 jobs. I won't argue that they never are - and I'm not saying that R1 translations are always better, even though I firmly believe in the notion that a paid professional is generally going to turn in better results than an amateur doing it for personal glory - but it's important to point out the rampant stupidity that leads to this being accepted as "common wisdom", and it's important to deflate the people who argue endlessly that because they prefer fan translations (for whatever reason) that means they are universally, objectively "better".
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Then he says this:

Frankly it's one of the more upsetting arguments I've seen tossed around over the years. If you don't actually speak the language that's being translated, you have zero credibility when criticizing the translation. Not to mention the fact that translation itself is an incredibly subjective task, one where the final result is based entirely on the personal choices made by the person who's doing the translation. It's not a precise science in any way - two people with the exact same knowledge and experience might translate the same sentence in two very different ways. The meaning will still be the same (and I should add that a lot of the negative criticism that gets passed around about translation jobs is based completely on obnoxious, self-righteous pedantry rather than legitimate sincere complaints about the meaning of the original dialogue being changed too much), and that's what's important.
Click to expand...
It seems to me that he contradicts himself. If what he says is true - the idea that translating something is subjective, since there's always 'something lost in the translation' anyway - then how can he honestly believe that a paid professional is in any way better than a fansubber w/ a great grasp of both Japanese & English and is nuanced in both cultures' linguistic intricacy? He can't have it both ways. Why not hire the fansubber to do the translating? It satisfies both parties - the anime devs get their anime out to a global audience & the fansubber gets paid for doing something he would've done for free.

Anyway, I think what's happening to the anime industry is more a result of global overexposure & an oversaturated market. You yourself have complained on numerous occasions about how 90something percent of the anime out there is crap (while I don't agree I will admit it's probably more than half). What you have is too much product flooding the market. And if there's anything video game history has taught me is that an oversaturated market is a sign of glut & minimal quality control. There's going to be a crash and it won't be pretty.

Anime (as a export) is still in its infancy when you look at it on a global scale. This is due to anime devs being slow to adapt to the marketplace. We're still getting anime at a glacial pace (ok, less-than glacial) that it feels like the late 80s, VHS was still the dominant format, & waiting a year (or beyond) for a movie or show was the norm. Just as video killed the radio star, the internet killed slow media adapters. This is true for anime just as it is for music & movies. W/ the internet delivering almost instantaneous access to just-released media, is it any wonder that people would rather have fansubs? If I want to watch the latest eps. of Bleach or read the latest manga, it's as easy as 1-2-3 torrent it. Why should I wait 1+ years for anime/manga to come out?

The solution to me seems pretty self-evident. Don't release an anime (on tv) or manga until you have dual (or multiple) audio/subtitle tracks. Once a product has reached a certain level of popularity across the globe, it can no longer sustain itself locally unless it adapts to a global audience, both in content & distribution. I've seen anime do the former but their distro channels are woefully still japanese oriented. Try as the japanese might like to remain homogeneous, they have to understand that anime is no longer just theirs.

EDIT: And i do buy anime dvds but I wait for them, like american shows, in box sets. It's cheaper & I get the whole series in one go. It's not my fault that the companies put them out piecemeal instead of giving the customer the choice between individual eps. or box sets when they release them initially.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']Then you're obviously watching the wrong shows. *Most* of what gets put on Adult Swim is dubbed very, very well. Also, it's unfortunate that some of us have yet to outgrow making broad generalizations based on a few examples. Again, your loss.


This made me sad, since you're usually fairly intelligent. You know *full well* that a company like 4kids is very, very different from Geneon, ADV, Funimation, Bandai, and so on. Almost all commercial subs are 100% faithful and true to the original work. And in the case of 4kids, the kind of anime they license is rarely targeted towards us, so a dub-only, content-edited product makes sense to their demographic, with a few exceptions (most notably Shaman King and One Piece, the latter of which is being corrected by Funimation).

In fact, today's Answerman column on ANN addressed the misguided "fansubs are better" argument too:



Plus there's the fact that if you're not supporting the American anime companies and only sticking to fansubs and DVD rips, you're directly contributing to the death of the anime industry in this country. Over the last year, things have gotten pretty bad, and they'll only get worse if it keeps up.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
 
[quote name='jaykrue']Anyway, I think what's happening to the anime industry is more a result of global overexposure & an oversaturated market. You yourself have complained on numerous occasions about how 90something percent of the anime out there is crap (while I don't agree I will admit it's probably more than half). What you have is too much product flooding the market. And if there's anything video game history has taught me is that an oversaturated market is a sign of glut & minimal quality control. There's going to be a crash and it won't be pretty.[/QUOTE]
Oversaturation was certainly part of the problem when it was applicable a few years ago, but now that anime companies have cut back on what they license, it's not the heart of the problem. It seems like an easy way of denying that a problem exists, but when even the companies that create the anime back in Japan issues statements to their American audiences that acknowledge that fansubbing has made a huge dent in profits, there's obviously something to it. If you honestly believe that having fansubs readily available for people to download for free will not affect both the producers and distributors of anime, then you have no grasp of the dire situation that the market is in.

[quote name='jaykrue']Anime (as a export) is still in its infancy when you look at it on a global scale. This is due to anime devs being slow to adapt to the marketplace. We're still getting anime at a glacial pace (ok, less-than glacial) that it feels like the late 80s, VHS was still the dominant format, & waiting a year (or beyond) for a movie or show was the norm. Just as video killed the radio star, the internet killed slow media adapters. This is true for anime just as it is for music & movies. W/ the internet delivering almost instantaneous access to just-released media, is it any wonder that people would rather have fansubs? If I want to watch the latest eps. of Bleach or read the latest manga, it's as easy as 1-2-3 torrent it. Why should I wait 1+ years for anime/manga to come out?[/QUOTE]
Nobody's asking you to wait, but I would expect that you would buy everything you enjoy if you're truly an anime fan. My beef was with your assertion that fansubs are "better" than commercial releases because they're made by fans, and then further implying that American anime distributors release an inferior product, using a blanket statement when really only one or two companies are guilty of the crime (and even then, they only do so because there's no profitability in releasing an uncut, Japanese-language version - just look at the failure of the uncut Shaman King and Yu-Gi-Oh releases if you want proof of that). You knew that was a bullshit argument from the get-go.

[quote name='jaykrue']The solution to me seems pretty self-evident. Don't release an anime (on tv) or manga until you have dual (or multiple) audio/subtitle tracks.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the throngs of Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh fans are just lining up around the block for uncut dual-language DVDs. Not an economically viable solution, and you know it.

[quote name='jaykrue']Once a product has reached a certain level of popularity across the globe, it can no longer sustain itself locally unless it adapts to a global audience, both in content & distribution. I've seen anime do the former but their distro channels are woefully still japanese oriented. Try as the japanese might like to remain homogeneous, they have to understand that anime is no longer just theirs.[/QUOTE]
But... anime *is* theirs. They create it with their own blood, sweat, and tears, and they own it lock, stock, and barrel. Of course they need to find a way to deal with new methods of distribution (all media companies do at this point), but *free* will never be a viable option as long as you expect them to produce more.

[quote name='jaykrue']EDIT: And i do buy anime dvds but I wait for them, like american shows, in box sets. It's cheaper & I get the whole series in one go. It's not my fault that the companies put them out piecemeal instead of giving the customer the choice between individual eps. or box sets when they release them initially.[/QUOTE]
And this is what's killing the anime industry. Anime is *supposed* to be released "piecemeal." In Japan, there's no chance in HELL that you would ever see such cheap box sets - you're lucky America gets them at all! Truth is, the Japanese companies don't like it when American companies release cheap box sets so quickly.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']Oversaturation was certainly part of the problem when it was applicable a few years ago, but now that anime companies have cut back on what they license, it's not the heart of the problem. It seems like an easy way of denying that a problem exists, but when even the companies that create the anime back in Japan issues statements to their American audiences that acknowledge that fansubbing has made a huge dent in profits, there's obviously something to it. If you honestly believe that having fansubs readily available for people to download for free will not affect both the producers and distributors of anime, then you have no grasp of the dire situation that the market is in.[/quote]

Never said anything of the sort. Of course fansubs are going to affect everything. I imply as much when I say there's going to be a crash (and there will, it's inevitable) and it won't be pretty. And I think oversaturation is still as big a problem as it was a few years ago. There's still a glut of anime titles (half of which are crap thanks to the previously mentioned weak QC) sitting on the shelves. Part of it is definitely fansubs but part of it is also not adapting to new media quick enough. Adapt or die.

[quote name='Kirin Lemon'] Nobody's asking you to wait, but I would expect that you would buy everything you enjoy if you're truly an anime fan. My beef was with your assertion that fansubs are "better" than commercial releases because they're made by fans, and then further implying that American anime distributors release an inferior product, using a blanket statement when really only one or two companies are guilty of the crime (and even then, they only do so because there's no profitability in releasing an uncut, Japanese-language version - just look at the failure of the uncut Shaman King and Yu-Gi-Oh releases if you want proof of that). You knew that was a bullshit argument from the get-go.[/quote]

You're making it sound like I don't buy any of the anime I watch. As I mentioned in my previous post, I do buy DVDs... when they come out in box sets. I'm well off fiscally but that doesn't mean I will wantonly waste money on what I see as a poor deal. Selling individual DVDs doesn't make sense to me anymore since you leave me hanging on the story. Sorry, but consumer whoring is not part of my functional parameters. I'll buy the figures, DVDs, related video games, etc. when they make sense. But I won't buy something just because they decide to slap a 'limited edition' or 'director's cut' sign on it. If I've already got it, I don't see the need to buy the double/triple dip. So if you can imagine someone who's doing pretty good money-wise like me watching what I buy (which is what any good consumer should do), can you imagine what someone who isn't as well off has to choose between?

Plus, you've got to remember that anime is no longer just in competition w/ other anime. Once it became a global sensation, it now has to fight against other forms of entertainment - movies, books, songs, tv shows, dating, social networking, etc. A person only has a certain amount of time during a given day to pay attention to something in addition to his/her daily responsibilities. So this person must make a choice - watch anime? Play Bioshock? Watch Rambo? Have sex w/ girlfriend? Drink w/ the boys? Watch sports? All these things are vying for attention & they all require money. So depending on the person's interests, he might forego that limited edition uncut Japanese language English subtitled Shaman King in order to pay for that shiny new PS3 or flowers for the girlfriend.

And American anime distros are releasing an inferior product by virtue of lagging behind the fansubs. That's why there's no profitability in it. By the time those DVDs had come out, the fans already already moved on to the next anime show having seen the show on the fansubs. Our fast paced lives dictate that, in order for something to hold our attention, it has to arrive in a timely manner. If that DVD is coming out 2 years later, chances are, the fans have gravitated towards something else & the anime devs missed their window of opportunity. Release something at the height of its popularity & you'd have a different story.

[quote name='Kirin Lemon'] Yeah, the throngs of Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh fans are just lining up around the block for uncut dual-language DVDs. Not an economically viable solution, and you know it.[/quote]

How so? I already outlined how - use the fans as the translators/VAs. It's not like they need to travel to japan anymore nor do dvds have to be pressed overseas when they can be pressed locally. They're going to do it anyway, might as well utilize a local resource. They're already outsourcing their animation to Korea so this is just outsourcing another aspect of it. Additionally, the devaluation of the dollar as a reserve currency in contrast to the yen should make it even more enticing to do so.

[quote name='Kirin Lemon'] But... anime *is* theirs. They create it with their own blood, sweat, and tears, and they own it lock, stock, and barrel. Of course they need to find a way to deal with new methods of distribution (all media companies do at this point), but *free* will never be a viable option as long as you expect them to produce more.[/quote]

You mistake what I mean by 'theirs'. What I mean is that it's not theirs to solely consume as a facet of japanese culture. Since the world has seen how entertaining anime can be (even factoring in the lowest denominator), they've no longer the option of 'keeping it to themselves' in a national sense. And I never said anything about 'free'. I just said that, as an alternative, I can get anime at near instantaneous access so I get it days (or even hours) after it's released in japan (translated no less). Offer it up, in the form of a channel and not just Adult Swim that gives me anime at the same time as the japanese networks and I'll gladly add it as one of my cable channels. Again, use a local resource. The anime on the various channels we get always lags behind by at least a year. A year in the Internet Age feels like a millennium. Sure you can chalk that up to licensing but, to me, that's just another bump in the road to adaptation. Is there a coalition of various anime companies petitioning to have their own channel(s) to promote their shows? If not, they should get one going. If there is, then they're not doing a good job & need to be restructured.

[quote name='Kirin Lemon'] And this is what's killing the anime industry. Anime is *supposed* to be released "piecemeal." In Japan, there's no chance in HELL that you would ever see such cheap box sets - you're lucky America gets them at all! Truth is, the Japanese companies don't like it when American companies release cheap box sets so quickly.[/quote]

Supposed to? I didn't realize that was an outright japanese law. Like I said, adapt or die. Like I also said, anime is no longer for the japanese to solely consume. They have to adapt to the global economic shifts at play. Even if anime, at one point in time, is 'supposed to' released that way, the media market (by which I include anything that is consumed in some way - movies, music, shows, etc.) is viciously Darwinian in that it forces the best players to adapt in order to survive and the worst players to die off.
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']Nobody's asking you to wait, but I would expect that you would buy everything you enjoy if you're truly an anime fan. My beef was with your assertion that fansubs are "better" than commercial releases because they're made by fans, and then further implying that American anime distributors release an inferior product, using a blanket statement when really only one or two companies are guilty of the crime (and even then, they only do so because there's no profitability in releasing an uncut, Japanese-language version - just look at the failure of the uncut Shaman King and Yu-Gi-Oh releases if you want proof of that). You knew that was a bullshit argument from the get-go.


Yeah, the throngs of Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh fans are just lining up around the block for uncut dual-language DVDs. Not an economically viable solution, and you know it.[/quote]

I'd love to see 4kids/Funimation release uncut dual language dvds for there shows. I bought all the uncut dvds for both shaman king and yugioh when they came out and would've kept buying them if they kept releasing them. However I don't think it's just a matter of being unprofitable , it's also a matter of 4kids not caring. They've shown in the past that no matter how many fans line up willing to give them money for a GOOD product , they seem more content to ignore them and put out a crap product and say that there is no market for the good product. This arguement worked for them for a while but after you have a success like Naruto , using that stance seems ridiculous.

I was originally add some additional comments but I changed my mind since I couldn't think of anything good to add.
 
Well, this does remind me that I need to pick up that Anime Legends Cowboy Bebop box set sometime. It's only $40, but I know I'm not going to be doing much other than playing Super Smash Bros. Brawl for the next week or so, so I guess it'd be pointless to pick it up now.
 
[quote name='Killer Rabbit']Well, this does remind me that I need to pick up that Anime Legends Cowboy Bebop box set sometime. It's only $40, but I know I'm not going to be doing much other than playing Super Smash Bros. Brawl for the next week or so, so I guess it'd be pointless to pick it up now.[/quote]


Too bad you missed out of the last Rightstuf sale. I got it for $27.00 (still waiting for it to be shipped though).

I also need to finish getting Ergo Proxy 2-6. With Geneon gone I'm afraid those are going to skyrocket on eBay.
 
dubs are less consistent as i've heard some bad voice acting and some excellent ones as well (Beck being the pinnacle of dub awesomeness). subs are almost always good as the voice to character matchings are consistently believable. i hate hearing a dub where the voice totally doesn't match the character's appearance.

as far as buying anime is concerned i only buy boxsets for shows i've seen via fansubs and really enjoyed. they're cheaper and usually smaller (thinpaks at least) than individual DVDs.

if i had more expendable income i'd probably buy more but i'd still watch before buying. several anime are promising at first and then devolve into utter crap (Gantz comes to mind)
 
[quote name='jaykrue']Like I said, there's 3 ways to watch it. It's your choice. It's just that, depending on which way you watch them, the story plays out a bit differently. The first way (and the way most people saw it the first time) is by broadcast order. This is the order the episodes were shown on television. The reason they were shown this way is due to the creator's request for it to be so and the tv network obliged. The 2nd way to view it is the chronological way. This way you get to watch the story unfold as the events occur. What you get is a traditional (awesome but still not as cool as broadcast order) anime storyline. The 3rd way (DVD order or how it appears sequentially on the dvds) is closer to chronological order in that only one episode is out of sequence. What is episode 11 in the chronological order is episode 1 in the DVD but they are otherwise the same.

My own recommendation is to watch it like how most people watch it - broadcast order. It makes for a much better storyline & pacing. I'll list the orders of all 3. The numbers are all based on the DVD order meaning that were you to watch the anime in broadcast order, you'd use the DVD episode numbers as reference. Hope that isn't still confusing. Anyway:

DVD order - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
Chronological order - 11, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14
Broadcast order - 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 13, 14, 4, 7, 6, 8, 12, 11, 9

So, the 9th episode of the DVD order becomes the last episode of the broadcast order. I know it seems pretty confusing but, if you've got the dvds, there'll be an option for you there to see it in any of the 3 orders.[/quote]

Thanks a lot. :whee: :D
 
I really hope they release all the DVDs for Gurren Lagann in America. This is definitely now on my list of series that I enjoyed so much I'm willing to buy on DVD. Two more episodes to go.
Things just can't go well for Yoko. Kittan finally starts acting more like Kamina, and he goes and gets himself killed. At least he got to go out with a King Kittan Giga Drill Breaker, which was awesome.
 
All right everyone , I need some help. I was tired of looking at my pile of backlogged anime and decided that I'm finally gonna start working my way though it. I'd like some advice on what shows I should put on the top of my pile to watch first and what shows I should hold off on.

Record of the Lodess War
Escaflowne
GTO
Space Pirate Captian Herlock
Tenchi in Tokyo
Niea under 7
Haibane Renmei
Witch Hunter Robin (actually already saw this on Adult Swim , but was gonna re-watch it to better understand it)
Azumanga Daioh (watched the first few episodes already but got sidetracked)
Last Exile (watched the first few episodes already but got sidetracked)
Zone of the Enders
Final Fantasy Unlimited

If anybody notices a pattern there , several of those shows I picked up during the last Right Stuf geneon sale.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']Tenchi in Tokyo and Final Fantasy Unlimited are garbage. So go give those away or something.

Watch Haibane first. Excellent show.[/QUOTE]

yea watch ^ first
 
haibane and last exile are reallly good - two of my all time favorites. azumanga and GTO are both really funny comedies. haven't seen the others save escaflowne, which is decent.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Too bad you missed out of the last Rightstuf sale. I got it for $27.00 (still waiting for it to be shipped though).

[/quote]

Backordered for me too.
 
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