So I got banned from NeoGAF...

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BingoBrown

BingoBrown

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Here is the thread topic:

So, after meeting with many a retailer, Sunday is the day to get a PS4


went to Best Buy: Sunday
went to Target: Sunday

went to Walmart: Sunday (she said I didn't need to worry about lines becasue they are supposed to getting a really big shipment)

went to Gamestop: sold out till Christmas, so fuck that noise

so Sunday it is
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I got banned for this post:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=93581473&postcount=19

When is the day to buy a game worth playing on the PS4? (Spoiler follows)--> March 21, 2014, is an acceptable answer. As is September 9, 2014.
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Apparently pointing out that there are no AAA must-have games on the PS4 yet is "trolling."

I'm not even an Xbox fanboy. When I buy a next gen console next fall, it's likely going to be the PS4. I just don't understand the hype. Maybe my post was mildly trollish, but I hardly think it was bannable, even if it was for just a month. I've seen far worse go unpunished. I dunno, maybe the mod is a Sony fanboy whose skin was ruffled?

As the only other gaming forum I actively engage in, I'm turning to you CAG. Was this bannable behavior? Am I a total dick?

 
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Are you a total dick? Probably not (I don't know you that well). But you have to understand the rest of the internet. Normal adults will look at your post and shrug. I'd probably even disagree with you, but not make a post about it since I don't care that much. But for 99% of the internet, what you said is enough to get them mad enough to start trashing their mom's basement. We live in a society where jokes are no longer tolerated, and you made one in front of an audience of 13 year old boys who love their video games more than they love their parents.
 
I got banned for saying my xbox was banned. I think its because I'm a mexican. What a racist shithole site.

 
whoknows said:
Neogaf is a terrible place.

You're better off.

You were trolling though.
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I find the community generally entertaining. It's pretty amazing when you stop and think about some of the shit that goes on there, though. Don't dare say that 720p vs. 1080p is not that big of a deal, they will cut your fucking throat. Also, half of Gaffers love Nintendo and half of them hate Nintendo. So polarizing.

Access_Denied said:
Are you a total dick? Probably not (I don't know you that well). But you have to understand the rest of the internet. Normal adults will look at your post and shrug. I'd probably even disagree with you, but not make a post about it since I don't care that much. But for 99% of the internet, what you said is enough to get them mad enough to start trashing their mom's basement. We live in a society where jokes are no longer tolerated, and you made one in front of an audience of 13 year old boys who love their video games more than they love their parents.
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I can definitely be a dick. I used to spend a majority of my forum time on CAG, and I'd be a dick here too sometimes, but I was never banned, nor did I probably deserve it. And I'm never malicious or anything, slightly trollish behavior at the worst.

But yeah, GAF is a strange place sometimes. In Off-Topic, I once suggested that it is appropriate etiquette to give a wedding gift at least equal to the amount it cost the bride and groom for you to attend their wedding (i.e. if it's a $50 a plate meal, and you bring a guest, you should give a $100 gift). The pitchforks came out en masse, and I realized I wasn't having a rational conversation with people from ordinary society.

 
I just sometimes wonder what these people are like in real life. I can be be a dick sometimes on the internet, but I usually stick to being nice and friendly, as that's generally how I am in real life. Given the posts by some of these people, I can't imagine that they have many friends.
 
I still haven't gotten a GAF account. Just never gets approved. They're super strict on things and look like a very closed ecosystem of users. Like I get it, they don't allow trolling but I lurk the forums sometimes and I see so much worse. I mean, why is someone saying the day they believe they should buy a console is when a particular game releases? Clearly the person is saying that they do think the console is worth buying eventually and for certain titles, so its not like they're putting the console down as a whole, just saying its best for them to wait.

GAF is pretty powerful in the industry when you think about it but honestly the entire site comes across like they know it and the general user there doesn't seem all that humble about its status.

 
It seemed like a joke to me and good advice. I bought the PS4 day 1, but it makes sense to me if people want to wait for their killer app.

I don't know what I was specifically banned for on NeoGAF, but my ban reason was "I don't think you'd be a good fit here." At the time I was defending the video game industry against charges of sexism and I was talking about how Internet forums in general should have more freedom to discuss what you want without fear of being banned.

NeoGAF is more like a country club where members are highly vetted than a place to actually discuss things, hang out or have fun.
 
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You made the same post that gets reported here all the time. Mod probably tired of idiots saying the same thing over and over again and getting reported. Can't blame them.
 
Spokker said:
It seemed like a joke to me and good advice. I bought the PS4 day 1, but it makes sense to me if people want to wait for their killer app.
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Yeah, that's all I was saying. I've just been shocked at the lengths people will go to in order to get a PS4/Xbone. They're nothing special without the games, and while the games will be coming, so will the consoles. You don't have to camp out at Best Buy. Just be reasonable, buy one when they are easily available. You won't have missed anything.

More than anything, I think it's the herd mentality that I hate.

CaseyRyback said:
You made the same post that gets reported here all the time. Mod probably tired of idiots saying the same thing over and over again and getting reported. Can't blame them.
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But as a mod, at some point you really have to ask what your purpose is as a forum moderator? Do you want to wield your power just to prove you have it, or are you there as a stopgap to prevent the ugly things from happening? Unless someone is obviously trolling just to get a reaction out of people, I think it should slide. My post was just a joke poking mildly poking fun at the people who are clamoring for this new hardware that doesn't really have anything fantastic to play on it yet. It was far more innocent that 99% of the console wars crap that gets posted these days.

 
Jodou said:
I'd never patron a place that uses censorship in the form of bans.
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This site isn't any different. Post negatively about something too many times or get on the wrong side of one of the mods' pets and you're out of here.

bonesawisready said:
GAF is pretty powerful in the industry when you think about it but honestly the entire site comes across like they know it and the general user there doesn't seem all that humble about its status.
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How so? Activity does not necessitate relevance.

 
I got temp banned for saying someone looked like an elf and haven't logged in since. :lol:

(Spoiler: The person did look like an elf.)

In my short time there, I noticed that a large-sized chunk of posters there thought their child-like wonder dreams video game speculations were somehow prophetic because they were members of some sort of exclusive think tank of digital baby geniuses.  Oh, and every poster seems to succumb to 1 of 3 or 4 of the major consumerist fanboy factions.

Weird place.

 
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Plenty of game development and game bloggers post there. Far more than post here on CAG. This includes Cliffy B, David Jaffe, and Boogie2988. I think Angry Joe might post there as well. 

The community is especially influential on specific topic matters, especially things such as gender in videogames. They're one of the bastions of unadulterated gaming fandom on the internet and they were one of the key communities involved in getting the Xbox One to turn their policies around regarding DRM. It's not a community to scoff at but it's also a landmine as they are pretty proud of their exclusivity.

 
HeroToTheMasses said:
Plenty of game development and game bloggers post there. Far more than post here on CAG.
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh

fuck, that community must be TEN TIMES better if Howard Phillips and his bowtie along with Bitter Indie Game Developer are hanging out there.
 
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HeroToTheMasses said:
The community is especially influential on specific topic matters, especially things such as gender in videogames.
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Such a very important issue. Throw a few more Remember Me's into the market to fail miserably and maybe a girl will pick up a controller for any reason other than to solicit attention and/or livestream donations. What society truly needs to evolve is for more women to play video games despite the fact that they've demonstrated time and time again that they don't want to.
 
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KaneRobot said:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh

fuck, that community must be TEN TIMES better if Howard Phillips and his bowtie along with Bitter Indie Game Developer are hanging out there.
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I didn't say it was better. You made the correlation. The fact is far more game industry folks post on GAF than on CAG. You can take that to heart or not. That's not my problem. But that's what happens.

 
Yeah, in addition to the devs some of the PR guys like Major Nelson post over there. So it's definitely one of the most influential game forums in terms if where industry folks go to see what the hardcore gaming crows is saying.

I like the site a lot. My only real gripes with it are that being so busy and only having the one main forum really, it's hard to keep up with and few threads have any back and forth discussion as it moves so fast it's mostly just people responding to the OP each thread. But on the other hand CAG is way to slow for me, especially after the 3.0 update. I'd really like to find a game forum in the middle of the two activity wise, that had equal quality discussions as these two sites.
 
dmaul1114 said:
Yeah, in addition to the devs some of the PR guys like Major Nelson post over there. So it's definitely one of the most influential game forums in terms if where industry folks go to see what the hardcore gaming crows is saying.
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I don't see how being PR friendly makes it influential.

 
Spokker said:
Such a very important issue. Throw a few more Remember Me's into the market to fail miserably and maybe a girl will pick up a controller for any reason other than to solicit attention and/or livestream donations. What society truly needs to evolve is for more women to play video games despite the fact that they've demonstrated time and time again that they don't want to.
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This post makes me want to punch you in the face so damn hard. With a beaker of acid.

 
georox said:
This post makes me want to punch you in the face so damn hard. With a beaker of acid.
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The stats and anecdotal evidence support everything I am saying. When it comes to core games, like the ones on consoles, or anything on the PC that isn't social media, casual or MMO, women generally are not interested. What the very vocal advocates of "strong female characters" and "video game industry so sexist smh" theories are trying to do is brute force their way in to a hobby they once ridiculed but now realize has opportunities to push their weight arond.

But good work threatening violence rather than come up with any kind of argument.

Anyway, there's no virtue in tackling "gender issues" in the games industry. It doesn't matter to society if women specifically play games or not, only that they, like men, have equal opportunity to pursue happiness. And that pursuit does not generally include games. Whether the behavioral differences between men and women are nature or nurture (I say it's 50/50), browbeating the games industry into changing is not going to change those behavioral differences much.
 
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Spokker said:
The stats and anecdotal evidence support everything I am saying. When it comes to core games, like the ones on consoles, or anything on the PC that isn't social media, casual or MMO, women generally are not interested. What the very vocal advocates of "strong female characters" and "video game industry so sexist smh" theories are trying to do is brute force their way in to a hobby they once ridiculed but now realize has opportunities to push their weight arond.

But good work threatening violence rather than come up with any kind of argument.

Anyway, there's no virtue in tackling "gender issues" in the games industry. It doesn't matter to society if women specifically play games or not, only that they, like men, have equal opportunity to pursue happiness. And that pursuit does not generally include games. Whether the behavioral differences between men and women are nature or nurture (I say it's 50/50), browbeating the games industry into changing is not going to change those behavioral differences much.
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There's a lot wrong with what you're saying as well. Women play core games. Stats and anecdotal evidence will show women have grown the games industry by leaps and bounds and have helped it gain credibility in the mainstream far more than ever before. There is legitimacy in what gender advocates argue for in the game industry,

However, I'm not a fan of the vilification that follows when someone disagrees with these gender advocates. I'm far too much of a moderate. You're on the other side of these vocal advocates. By arguing there is no virtue you diminish video games as an art form as much as the advocates do. Where they vilify, you dismiss. Same coin. Different side.

Women are not a monolith. They love hardcore games. They love casual games. Just like women didn't vote for Sarah Palin because she had a vagina, they're not only going to play Cooking Mama and Animal Crossing. They play The Walking Dead. The Last of Us. Bioshock Infinite. And so on.

If you don't think video games affect culture, then you can say the same thing about the written word or the moving picture. But we both know they do carry influence. Video games have that power as well. And if video games have that power, they carry influence - and if they carry influence, then they affect society, and women have as much right to be a voice in society as being gamers as they do being readers or film watchers.

 
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Dark_Sage said:
I don't see how being PR friendly makes it influential.
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It just shows that major industry reps are reading those forums and thus it is one way they are keeping tabs on the thoughts if hard pore gamers.

How much influence does it have? Probably little in the grand scheme of things. But more than lesser sites like this one that don't have devs, PR reps etc. posting openly.
 
I think GAF is pretty influential overall. I think pretty much everybody reads it at least now and then and quite a few industry people post there.

Before they finally approved my account though they could go fuck themselves, the elitist pricks.

Anyway yeah OP I probably would have looked at your post history and then not banned you for that, but still not a good thing to say there. There's a lot of shit they just don't tolerate much at all.

 
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Okay, let's get back on track here, people.  We're talking about me, remember?  I made this thread to fuel my narcissistic needs.

Anyway, saw a new topic posted today on GAF, about how you may need to play Destiny "co-op" for end game missions.  Second reply to the thread was this:

"Oh my god cancel your pre order you fuckin whiners"

This was about 3 hours ago.  This guy did not get banned, yet I did, because I joked that the launch lineup for PS4 was unimpressive and that inFamous and/or Destiny would justify buying the platform.  WTF?

 
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There's always going to be randomness in what posts get seen by mods (and by which mod).  Especially on a site with that much activity.

It sucks as it would be much better if enforcement was uniform and consistent.  But there's no way to do that on a super busy forum.

 
BingoBrown said:
Okay, let's get back on track here, people. We're talking about me, remember? I made this thread to fuel my narcissistic needs.

Anyway, saw a new topic posted today on GAF, about how you may need to play Destiny "co-op" for end game missions. Second reply to the thread was this:

"Oh my god cancel your pre order you fuckin whiners"

This was about 3 hours ago. This guy did not get banned, yet I did, because I joked that the launch lineup for PS4 was unimpressive and that inFamous and/or Destiny would justify buying the platform. WTF?
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Stop trying to Scooby-Doo this. We're not going to solve this mystery for you.

 
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BingoBrown said:
Okay, let's get back on track here, people. We're talking about me, remember? I made this thread to fuel my narcissistic needs.

Anyway, saw a new topic posted today on GAF, about how you may need to play Destiny "co-op" for end game missions. Second reply to the thread was this:

"Oh my god cancel your pre order you fuckin whiners"

This was about 3 hours ago. This guy did not get banned, yet I did, because I joked that the launch lineup for PS4 was unimpressive and that inFamous and/or Destiny would justify buying the platform. WTF?
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Update: That guy was banned too.

 
GAF is cool.  I don't get all the hate.  It always seems like more people will be sensitive there because the sheer number of users is enormous.  It's like the survey situation.  If you have a small room of people only 10 people will speak up.  If you have an audience the size of the stadium, you'll have thousands vote.  It's just a numbers game and GAF is as big as it gets.  If anything, I find it annoying that it's so popular because the minute something big is discussed in there, the thread blows up so fast that it's near impossible to keep up with the topic unless you're sitting there for 2 hours to strictly follow the thread.  I remember when Ortho popped off about the Xbone DRM after E3.  The thread on GAF exploded to 100 pages in one night alone, it was nuts.

Luckily, I care more about saving as much money for my gaming habit versus the latest gaming news discussions so CAG is my default gaming home.  GAF is fun to browse once in awhile.  And it's not so much about the Sony homerism there, there was plenty of hate spewed at them when the PS3 came out. 
 
HeroToTheMasses said:
I'm far too much of a moderate.
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Yes, like you wanted to moderate your fist to my face, with acid!

Women are not a monolith. They love hardcore games. They love casual games.
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I am speaking generally here. You can find individual examples of anything. What the stats actually show is that female gamers are well represented among the casual, mobile and social gamers. The ESA statistic that claims that 45% of gamers are female include those titles as well, and it results in a statistic that has been misrepresented by those who think gender issues in games is important. When we do get more nuanced stats, time and time again, the women the ESA claims are playing games are nowhere to be found.

Take, for example, when Bioware really hyped up FemShep for Mass Effect 3. They, for the first time, released a FemShep trailer. They offered dual cover art for the box. Months later, they release the post-mortem statistics they collect when the game is connected to the Internet (most consoles). It turns out that among those who completed the game, only 18% chose to play as FemShep. This was up three percentage points over Mass Effect 2. And it isn't just because the default is the male Shep. Only 13% of players went with the default character, be it male or female. The vast majority chose to customize a character, which is a conscious decision not to play as FemShep.

As someone who played as FemShep, am I supposed to be outraged? No, the stats supplied by Bioware are very clear. If Bioware said, "Hey, we don't have the resources to fully voice a male and female main character, so we're going to only offer the most popular version." I would be disappointed, but it would absolutely be the right decision if they needed to do that. Actually, disappointed would be too strong a word. I would simply understand that my personal preference is not their priority. I wouldn't say that it's a societal problem because my personal preference was not met by this private corporation.

At the end of the day, the highest virtue that any form of media can aspire to is to give the creator as much freedom as possible to create. Realistically, this is balanced by financial concerns because, after all, you have to make money. Way down on the list of important things to consider is social justice problems that are arguably not real problems when you really tear them apart.

They play The Walking Dead.
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Naturally, it's not a game.

The Last of Us.
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I saw no chicks besides some guy's mom at the midnight released of The Last of Us. Similarly this goes for other midnight releases I've been to as well.

If you don't think video games affect culture, then you can say the same thing about the written word or the moving picture. But we both know they do carry influence.
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Video games don't influence violence in society, but they do influence gender issues? Not buying it.

Also, I find it odd that guys cannot say they want to play as a male character or else it's sexist, but girls can absolutely demand female characters to play as. My girlfriend, for example, loves the new Tomb Raider, but won't play Uncharted because the main character is not a girl. Of course, she's also not demanding that video games cater to her needs.

"But guys already have male characters to play as!"

So what? This isn't a charity. If it's an artform as so many people believe, the artistic vision should come first.
 
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NeoGAF is a good news source and fun to read, but I still haven't signed up because I know I'd probably be banned fairly quickly.

CAG has very lax moderation compared to other gaming forums and I love it.  Unless you are being a total asshole/moron, you can say what you want here without repercussion.  And if you are a total asshole/moron, you get moderated as a warning before being banned.  The site gives you a chance to learn your lesson, but it won't hesitate to ban you if it is really necessary.  That's why this site is so damn great, in addition to the deals of course.  The old-timers remember how much of a vocal, frank (to put it in a more positive light than it should be, probably :lol:) poster I used to be.  I only got modded once here.  I've since calmed it down a notch, but I still can say what I want here without the PC brigade coming down on me.

 
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Spokker said:
Yes, like you wanted to moderate your fist to my face, with acid!

I am speaking generally here. You can find individual examples of anything. What the stats actually show is that female gamers are well represented among the casual, mobile and social gamers. The ESA statistic that claims that 45% of gamers are female include those titles as well, and it results in a statistic that has been misrepresented by those who think gender issues in games is important. When we do get more nuanced stats, time and time again, the women the ESA claims are playing games are nowhere to be found.

Take, for example, when Bioware really hyped up FemShep for Mass Effect 3. They, for the first time, released a FemShep trailer. They offered dual cover art for the box. Months later, they release the post-mortem statistics they collect when the game is connected to the Internet (most consoles). It turns out that among those who completed the game, only 18% chose to play as FemShep. This was up three percentage points over Mass Effect 2. And it isn't just because the default is the male Shep. Only 13% of players went with the default character, be it male or female. The vast majority chose to customize a character, which is a conscious decision not to play as FemShep.

As someone who played as FemShep, am I supposed to be outraged? No, the stats supplied by Bioware are very clear. If Bioware said, "Hey, we don't have the resources to fully voice a male and female main character, so we're going to only offer the most popular version." I would be disappointed, but it would absolutely be the right decision if they needed to do that. Actually, disappointed would be too strong a word. I would simply understand that my personal preference is not their priority. I wouldn't say that it's a societal problem because my personal preference was not met by this private corporation.

At the end of the day, the highest virtue that any form of media can aspire to is to give the creator as much freedom as possible to create. Realistically, this is balanced by financial concerns because, after all, you have to make money. Way down on the list of important things to consider is social justice problems that are arguably not real problems when you really tear them apart.

Naturally, it's not a game.

I saw no chicks besides some guy's mom at the midnight released of The Last of Us. Similarly this goes for other midnight releases I've been to as well.

Video games don't influence violence in society, but they do influence gender issues? Not buying it.

Also, I find it odd that guys cannot say they want to play as a male character or else it's sexist, but girls can absolutely demand female characters to play as. My girlfriend, for example, loves the new Tomb Raider, but won't play Uncharted because the main character is not a girl. Of course, she's also not demanding that video games cater to her needs.

"But guys already have male characters to play as!"

So what? This isn't a charity. If it's an artform as so many people believe, the artistic vision should come first.
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Dude! I'm not the one that said I wanted throw acid at you! That was someone else! I'm the one that defended you!

The fact that you weren't even aware of that much had made me ignore the rest of everything you've written. Like I said, you're just as bad as the advocates. Just as bad.

 
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Spokker said:
Yes, like you wanted to moderate your fist to my face, with acid!

I am speaking generally here. You can find individual examples of anything. What the stats actually show is that female gamers are well represented among the casual, mobile and social gamers. The ESA statistic that claims that 45% of gamers are female include those titles as well, and it results in a statistic that has been misrepresented by those who think gender issues in games is important. When we do get more nuanced stats, time and time again, the women the ESA claims are playing games are nowhere to be found.

Take, for example, when Bioware really hyped up FemShep for Mass Effect 3. They, for the first time, released a FemShep trailer. They offered dual cover art for the box. Months later, they release the post-mortem statistics they collect when the game is connected to the Internet (most consoles). It turns out that among those who completed the game, only 18% chose to play as FemShep. This was up three percentage points over Mass Effect 2. And it isn't just because the default is the male Shep. Only 13% of players went with the default character, be it male or female. The vast majority chose to customize a character, which is a conscious decision not to play as FemShep.

As someone who played as FemShep, am I supposed to be outraged? No, the stats supplied by Bioware are very clear. If Bioware said, "Hey, we don't have the resources to fully voice a male and female main character, so we're going to only offer the most popular version." I would be disappointed, but it would absolutely be the right decision if they needed to do that. Actually, disappointed would be too strong a word. I would simply understand that my personal preference is not their priority. I wouldn't say that it's a societal problem because my personal preference was not met by this private corporation.

At the end of the day, the highest virtue that any form of media can aspire to is to give the creator as much freedom as possible to create. Realistically, this is balanced by financial concerns because, after all, you have to make money. Way down on the list of important things to consider is social justice problems that are arguably not real problems when you really tear them apart.

Naturally, it's not a game.

I saw no chicks besides some guy's mom at the midnight released of The Last of Us. Similarly this goes for other midnight releases I've been to as well.

Video games don't influence violence in society, but they do influence gender issues? Not buying it.

Also, I find it odd that guys cannot say they want to play as a male character or else it's sexist, but girls can absolutely demand female characters to play as. My girlfriend, for example, loves the new Tomb Raider, but won't play Uncharted because the main character is not a girl. Of course, she's also not demanding that video games cater to her needs.

"But guys already have male characters to play as!"

So what? This isn't a charity. If it's an artform as so many people believe, the artistic vision should come first.
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There's more females at gaming midnights where there's more cosplayers, particularly Atlanta, Arizona, Florida, or Southern California; or more females in the tech industry, like in San Francisco/northern California.
 
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Everybody gets banned on GAF.  If you haven't been banned on GAF, then you aren't a part of GAF.

 
There are a large chunk of female gamers put there and it has grown in the past two decades. Just as the number of women into sports has grown in the same time period. However, a significant chunk also only play stuff like Wii Sports, Angry Birds, or Candy Crush. I am willing to bet that most of said gamers are older women, whereas a bigger piece of teenager/college-age women play more "hardcore" games.
 
Wasn't aware neogaf actually told people why they were banned. Most of the bans I've seen usually happen from too much trolling though. You can have dissenting opinions (frankly I agree with yours because the sparkly newness of my PS4 is waning), but you're apparently supposed to engage in thoughtful discussion. I haven't read through your posts or that thread, so I wouldn't really know. Though, why several posters there still aren't banned is beyond me.

 
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BingoBrown said:
Here is the thread topic:

I got banned for this post:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=93581473&postcount=19

Apparently pointing out that there are no AAA must-have games on the PS4 yet is "trolling."

I'm not even an Xbox fanboy. When I buy a next gen console next fall, it's likely going to be the PS4. I just don't understand the hype. Maybe my post was mildly trollish, but I hardly think it was bannable, even if it was for just a month. I've seen far worse go unpunished. I dunno, maybe the mod is a Sony fanboy whose skin was ruffled?

As the only other gaming forum I actively engage in, I'm turning to you CAG. Was this bannable behavior? Am I a total dick?
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I got banned months ago for some stupid shit as well, I really dislike the way mods treat some of the users.

 
Oh, for fucks sake, it happened again.  This one is even dumber.

It was in a thread about the newly-appointed Crimean Attorney General, who has become a small internet celebrity overnight, because she's quite attractive.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=788144

I posted this, "Crimean war redeemed?"

The whole thread was closed down hours ago, then I just randomly got banned, along with a lot of other people who made similar joking posts.  Seriously?  WTF?  Is there no fun allowed on NeoGAF?  Good Lord.

 
Why do you keep going back then?

You totally remind me of this joke about this dude who keeps trying to kill a bear. I'm not typing the whole thing out, but the punchline is the bear saying "You're not here to hunt, are you?" I'm sure other people have heard it before.

 
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