Super Smash Bros. Brawl - Gen. Discussion & Info
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LinkinPrime
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Zen Davis
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[quote name='option.iv']If you are of the people who wish to stay ignorant of these "advanced" techniques, there's another forum for you. It's called gamefaqs.[/quote]
I prefer CAG where you can talk about these things with a hint of wit (here's looking at you Strell) and still manage to add something to the conversation. That board had 20 pages of discussion on whether Wave-dashing is a glitch and whether it should or should not have been removed. That's pathetic.
At the end of the day, I'm a gaming enthusiast and the fact is that I like GAMES. That's plural. Brawl is only one game and to devote that much time to one worthless subject is just loser-ish.
[quote name='evilmax17']I like that Peach has a defensive Final Smash, and I definitely think it's unique, and I wouldn't change it...
...but it just seems so lame![/quote]
I actually like the fact that if you're playing with 4 people, you could toy with them as to who you will attack.
I prefer CAG where you can talk about these things with a hint of wit (here's looking at you Strell) and still manage to add something to the conversation. That board had 20 pages of discussion on whether Wave-dashing is a glitch and whether it should or should not have been removed. That's pathetic.
At the end of the day, I'm a gaming enthusiast and the fact is that I like GAMES. That's plural. Brawl is only one game and to devote that much time to one worthless subject is just loser-ish.
[quote name='evilmax17']I like that Peach has a defensive Final Smash, and I definitely think it's unique, and I wouldn't change it...
...but it just seems so lame![/quote]
I actually like the fact that if you're playing with 4 people, you could toy with them as to who you will attack.
[quote name='evilmax17']I like that Peach has a defensive Final Smash, and I definitely think it's unique, and I wouldn't change it...
...but it just seems so lame![/QUOTE]
Well, I'd like to think it's lame as well. But can this smash work while opponents are in the air? Say if someone is trying to recover and Peach uses this, it could mean instant death.
...but it just seems so lame![/QUOTE]
Well, I'd like to think it's lame as well. But can this smash work while opponents are in the air? Say if someone is trying to recover and Peach uses this, it could mean instant death.
Dr Mario Kart
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They shouldve just made Peach's final a senbonzakura, since there are already flowers all up in there. :3
As far as mechanics, it'll just have to be like the other fighting games that dont have L-canceling or wavedashing. Like ALL of them.
As far as mechanics, it'll just have to be like the other fighting games that dont have L-canceling or wavedashing. Like ALL of them.
[quote name='Zen Davis']I prefer CAG where you can talk about these things with a hint of wit (here's looking at you Strell) and still manage to add something to the conversation. That board had 20 pages of discussion on whether Wave-dashing is a glitch and whether it should or should not have been removed. That's pathetic.
At the end of the day, I'm a gaming enthusiast and the fact is that I like GAMES. That's plural. Brawl is only one game and to devote that much time to one worthless subject is just loser-ish.
I actually like the fact that if you're playing with 4 people, you could toy with them as to who you will attack.[/QUOTE]
It's not just brawl. There are "hardcore" fanbases for many games. Like Halo, Counter-Strike, Starcraft. I'm sure there are quite a handful in their respective communities studying strategies, reading up on frame data, etc. Sure you may call them losers, but in the end, those people desire to be winners in that game. And I don't think anyone can deny the existence of such people. Competition and 1-upping people are top priority for some, and for others it could be non-existant.
It's like someone wanting to be proficient and and devoting much of their time to perfecting a sport. They most likely do it for competition or even pure love for the game. I'd like to think that'd be the case with hardcore gamers.
At the end of the day, I'm a gaming enthusiast and the fact is that I like GAMES. That's plural. Brawl is only one game and to devote that much time to one worthless subject is just loser-ish.
I actually like the fact that if you're playing with 4 people, you could toy with them as to who you will attack.[/QUOTE]
It's not just brawl. There are "hardcore" fanbases for many games. Like Halo, Counter-Strike, Starcraft. I'm sure there are quite a handful in their respective communities studying strategies, reading up on frame data, etc. Sure you may call them losers, but in the end, those people desire to be winners in that game. And I don't think anyone can deny the existence of such people. Competition and 1-upping people are top priority for some, and for others it could be non-existant.
It's like someone wanting to be proficient and and devoting much of their time to perfecting a sport. They most likely do it for competition or even pure love for the game. I'd like to think that'd be the case with hardcore gamers.
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']They shouldve just made Peach's final a senbonzakura, since there are already flowers all up in there. :3
As far as mechanics, it'll just have to be like the other fighting games that dont have L-canceling or wavedashing. Like ALL of them.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, there's wavedashing in tekken. And L-canceling in Guilty Gear, which is in the form of a Roman Cancel. They may be different inputs, but they have the same basis, reducing lag and increased movement within a certain distance.
Funny thing is, Roman Cancel is a critical part of the XX series competitive play. Could L-cancelling and wavedashing be critical parts of Smash? We'll just have to wait and see. If they are, Smash could be, as you said, like all the other fighting games, and just that, nothing more.
As far as mechanics, it'll just have to be like the other fighting games that dont have L-canceling or wavedashing. Like ALL of them.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, there's wavedashing in tekken. And L-canceling in Guilty Gear, which is in the form of a Roman Cancel. They may be different inputs, but they have the same basis, reducing lag and increased movement within a certain distance.
Funny thing is, Roman Cancel is a critical part of the XX series competitive play. Could L-cancelling and wavedashing be critical parts of Smash? We'll just have to wait and see. If they are, Smash could be, as you said, like all the other fighting games, and just that, nothing more.
[quote name='option.iv']It's not just brawl. There are "hardcore" fanbases for many games. Like Halo, Counter-Strike, Starcraft. I'm sure there are quite a handful in their respective communities studying strategies, reading up on frame data, etc. Sure you may call them losers, but in the end, those people desire to be winners in that game. And I don't think anyone can deny the existence of such people. Competition and 1-upping people are top priority for some, and for others it could be non-existant.
It's like someone wanting to be proficient and and devoting much of their time to perfecting a sport. They most likely do it for competition or even pure love for the game. I'd like to think that'd be the case with hardcore gamers.[/quote]
They wouldn't receive so much flak, if they'd just stop bitching about it. If these "hardcore" Smash players are so great, it shouldn't take that much to adjust, and definitely doesn't require all the whining.
EDIT: And how many people gushed and loved Melee the first time playing? I sure as hell didn't. It was frustrating, after years of the original, to adjust to the speed/craziness of Melee.
After a couple days, I realized it was the superior game. But already we see people that "HATE" this game, from a one day demo.
It's like someone wanting to be proficient and and devoting much of their time to perfecting a sport. They most likely do it for competition or even pure love for the game. I'd like to think that'd be the case with hardcore gamers.[/quote]
They wouldn't receive so much flak, if they'd just stop bitching about it. If these "hardcore" Smash players are so great, it shouldn't take that much to adjust, and definitely doesn't require all the whining.
EDIT: And how many people gushed and loved Melee the first time playing? I sure as hell didn't. It was frustrating, after years of the original, to adjust to the speed/craziness of Melee.
After a couple days, I realized it was the superior game. But already we see people that "HATE" this game, from a one day demo.
[quote name='option.iv']It's like someone wanting to be proficient and and devoting much of their time to perfecting a sport. They most likely do it for competition or even pure love for the game. I'd like to think that'd be the case with hardcore gamers.[/QUOTE]
But that's not the case in sports, because I can't think of many venues where a sport has to be redesigned for some reason.
About the only thing that might be comparable is when there are changes beyond the control of the people setting up the environment. In other words, higher altitude might screw with someone who has practiced in a low-elevation area. Or a tennis player who is really proficient on clay courts might not do well on grass. Things that - even if everything is completely equal, such as field sizes, what type of ball is used, etc - cannot be controlled. That's about as much variation as you can get without ruining the rules in a huge way.
It's not like...bowlers, all of a sudden, can get armed with beehives, and launch said beehives at their opponents during the wind up.
"He's going for the strike, and OH! Here comes the beehive!"
Or, to make it more like Brawl, taking away the ability to use a beehive.
Sports are pretty much consistent when it comes to rules. And until there's an overwhelming need to change something, it has to be vital and completely applicable to everyone. In other words, one day, we might need to lengthen the distance from home plate to third base, because there's an epedemic of people being able to steal home because a new regulation forces catchers to wear a new type of equipment, which thereby interferes with their mobility, and thus allows runners to unfairly exploit it just enough that they can score easily. But I highly doubt even that situation could come to pass.
(On a related note: I liked those...I think they were Nike commercials, where the soccer fields were gigantic and hilly and filed with super trampolines. Or the other commercial where the basketball goal moved. Think They finally jazzed it up!)
The point is that when a new Smash comes out, inevitably, there's going to be small changes. And perhaps even big changes. Street Fighter has done it, Guilty Gear has done it, Tekken has done it. Every fighting game in the universe has done it. And lo, they all survived.
So I guess what I'm saying is that it's really hard for me to feel bad for this guy:
But that's not the case in sports, because I can't think of many venues where a sport has to be redesigned for some reason.
About the only thing that might be comparable is when there are changes beyond the control of the people setting up the environment. In other words, higher altitude might screw with someone who has practiced in a low-elevation area. Or a tennis player who is really proficient on clay courts might not do well on grass. Things that - even if everything is completely equal, such as field sizes, what type of ball is used, etc - cannot be controlled. That's about as much variation as you can get without ruining the rules in a huge way.
It's not like...bowlers, all of a sudden, can get armed with beehives, and launch said beehives at their opponents during the wind up.
"He's going for the strike, and OH! Here comes the beehive!"
Or, to make it more like Brawl, taking away the ability to use a beehive.
Sports are pretty much consistent when it comes to rules. And until there's an overwhelming need to change something, it has to be vital and completely applicable to everyone. In other words, one day, we might need to lengthen the distance from home plate to third base, because there's an epedemic of people being able to steal home because a new regulation forces catchers to wear a new type of equipment, which thereby interferes with their mobility, and thus allows runners to unfairly exploit it just enough that they can score easily. But I highly doubt even that situation could come to pass.
(On a related note: I liked those...I think they were Nike commercials, where the soccer fields were gigantic and hilly and filed with super trampolines. Or the other commercial where the basketball goal moved. Think They finally jazzed it up!)
The point is that when a new Smash comes out, inevitably, there's going to be small changes. And perhaps even big changes. Street Fighter has done it, Guilty Gear has done it, Tekken has done it. Every fighting game in the universe has done it. And lo, they all survived.
So I guess what I'm saying is that it's really hard for me to feel bad for this guy:
Dr Mario Kart
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Cancels in most games tend to have restraints on them.
In Soul Calibur for example, the moves that you can cancel during startup either have a very small window or the moves that you can cancel into are only a tiny subset of moves, depending on what move you canceled. You cant Variable Cancel out of EVERYTHING, despite its brokeness
My understanding of the roman cancel requires that you landed a hit on the opponent, and it takes up business off your tension meter.
L-Canceling is the most restriction free canceling system ever. To be able to cut the lag of all Aerial A attacks just like that, its a different class of canceling entirely.
In Soul Calibur for example, the moves that you can cancel during startup either have a very small window or the moves that you can cancel into are only a tiny subset of moves, depending on what move you canceled. You cant Variable Cancel out of EVERYTHING, despite its brokeness
My understanding of the roman cancel requires that you landed a hit on the opponent, and it takes up business off your tension meter.
L-Canceling is the most restriction free canceling system ever. To be able to cut the lag of all Aerial A attacks just like that, its a different class of canceling entirely.
[quote name='Rig']They wouldn't receive so much flak, if they'd just stop bitching about it. If these "hardcore" Smash players are so great, it shouldn't take that much to adjust, and definitely doesn't require all the whining.
EDIT: And how many people gushed and loved Melee the first time playing? I sure as hell didn't. It was frustrating, after years of the original, to adjust to the speed/craziness of Melee.
After a couple days, I realized it was the superior game. But already we see people that "HATE" this game, from a one day demo.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, that's something else. But yeah, there are those people as well who like to stick it out with the tried and true, rejecting almost anything that's new. Some of these guys are of the hardcore, but certainly not all I would think. I'm sure all the competitive players who have nothing against Brawl most likely don't post their "suggestions" because they honestly don't care. And it'd be easy to assume all the "hardcore" are whiners since there's nothing but a sea of these whiners' opinions.
And what else is there for those who are agitated by the new "Smash" but to whine? I'm sure everyone wants to have Smash be the game catered to their wants/preferences. But that's impossible, so they'll do whatever, be it whining or just being a jerkface to have it their way, rather than just sit idle and let the game take its course.
I too, was one of the people who stoutly rejected Smash melee. But it took "time" for me to ultimately hold Melee in higher regard.
So, if Sakurai does take into consideration the gaming community, it'll be whoever whines the most who'll get they're way. But this is still unknown, though I'd like to think it to be the case. So whine away bitches. And for those who like to counter-whine, either just ignore the whining, or keep whining and voice your opinion. Maybe, just maybe, Sora Ltd. will take the whining it into consideration.
EDIT: And how many people gushed and loved Melee the first time playing? I sure as hell didn't. It was frustrating, after years of the original, to adjust to the speed/craziness of Melee.
After a couple days, I realized it was the superior game. But already we see people that "HATE" this game, from a one day demo.
[/QUOTE]Hmm, that's something else. But yeah, there are those people as well who like to stick it out with the tried and true, rejecting almost anything that's new. Some of these guys are of the hardcore, but certainly not all I would think. I'm sure all the competitive players who have nothing against Brawl most likely don't post their "suggestions" because they honestly don't care. And it'd be easy to assume all the "hardcore" are whiners since there's nothing but a sea of these whiners' opinions.
And what else is there for those who are agitated by the new "Smash" but to whine? I'm sure everyone wants to have Smash be the game catered to their wants/preferences. But that's impossible, so they'll do whatever, be it whining or just being a jerkface to have it their way, rather than just sit idle and let the game take its course.
I too, was one of the people who stoutly rejected Smash melee. But it took "time" for me to ultimately hold Melee in higher regard.
So, if Sakurai does take into consideration the gaming community, it'll be whoever whines the most who'll get they're way. But this is still unknown, though I'd like to think it to be the case. So whine away bitches. And for those who like to counter-whine, either just ignore the whining, or keep whining and voice your opinion. Maybe, just maybe, Sora Ltd. will take the whining it into consideration.
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Cancels in most games tend to have restraints on them.
In Soul Calibur for example, the moves that you can cancel during startup either have a very small window or the moves that you can cancel into are only a tiny subset of moves, depending on what move you canceled. You cant Variable Cancel out of EVERYTHING, despite its brokeness
My understanding of the roman cancel requires that you landed a hit on the opponent, and it takes up business off your tension meter.
L-Canceling is the most restriction free canceling system ever. To be able to cut the lag of all Aerial A attacks just like that, its a different class of canceling entirely.[/QUOTE]
Oh there are restrictions to l-cancelling. Though they may not be direct, there are. Since l-cancelling reduces lag, it essentially changes what time their subsequent moves will come out, whatever they may be. All it takes for the defender to respond is to either change their timing (increase or decrease) to accomodate the change in the opponents timing.
Also l-cancelling it may reduce lag, but l-cancelling,say a forward air excecuted early in a short hop versus a forward air excecuted closer towards the end of the short hop yields different recovery results/frames/time. And the defender can also choose to shield grab before the l-cancel, or choose to not get hit by the fair in the first place, making them miss the l-cancel, allowing a window of opportunity to rape. (If l-cancel has become automatic, then this would no longer be the case in Brawl)
Even if l-cancel is perfectly excecuted, the lag time on certain moves is long enough for the opponent to still have a good chance at retaliating. i.e. Roy's dair.
The l-cancel is far from a godly technique. It can still be countered with versatile timing, which is what I think Smash is all about... timing. (At least Melee)
Unfortunately for you, l-cancelling restrictions didn't come in the form of a gauge or move restriction.
And there are two type of Roman Cancels (in current editions of GGXX) one can be done after certain moves and one after hitting an opponent after any move. Each of course have their own restrictions.
But hey, if we differ in our thoughts about what is "fair", fine.
In Soul Calibur for example, the moves that you can cancel during startup either have a very small window or the moves that you can cancel into are only a tiny subset of moves, depending on what move you canceled. You cant Variable Cancel out of EVERYTHING, despite its brokeness
My understanding of the roman cancel requires that you landed a hit on the opponent, and it takes up business off your tension meter.
L-Canceling is the most restriction free canceling system ever. To be able to cut the lag of all Aerial A attacks just like that, its a different class of canceling entirely.[/QUOTE]
Oh there are restrictions to l-cancelling. Though they may not be direct, there are. Since l-cancelling reduces lag, it essentially changes what time their subsequent moves will come out, whatever they may be. All it takes for the defender to respond is to either change their timing (increase or decrease) to accomodate the change in the opponents timing.
Also l-cancelling it may reduce lag, but l-cancelling,say a forward air excecuted early in a short hop versus a forward air excecuted closer towards the end of the short hop yields different recovery results/frames/time. And the defender can also choose to shield grab before the l-cancel, or choose to not get hit by the fair in the first place, making them miss the l-cancel, allowing a window of opportunity to rape. (If l-cancel has become automatic, then this would no longer be the case in Brawl)
Even if l-cancel is perfectly excecuted, the lag time on certain moves is long enough for the opponent to still have a good chance at retaliating. i.e. Roy's dair.
The l-cancel is far from a godly technique. It can still be countered with versatile timing, which is what I think Smash is all about... timing. (At least Melee)
Unfortunately for you, l-cancelling restrictions didn't come in the form of a gauge or move restriction.
And there are two type of Roman Cancels (in current editions of GGXX) one can be done after certain moves and one after hitting an opponent after any move. Each of course have their own restrictions.
But hey, if we differ in our thoughts about what is "fair", fine.
[quote name='Strell']But that's not the case in sports, because I can't think of many venues where a sport has to be redesigned for some reason.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, I can think of a couple. Take for example Muay Thai kickboxing. It was derived from Muay Boran which was an "effective" martial art. However, Muay Thai has taken much of the moves from Muay Boran and dubbed many of them illegal/forbidden for many reasons, mainly that they were too deadly/damaging in a sporting/kickboxing arena.
I agree that sports these days have rules set in stone and are generally not altered drastically. I'm sorry if I provided a reference that proved too old for this discussion.
And whatever happened to trampoline basketball?
Worst episode ever.
Hmm, I can think of a couple. Take for example Muay Thai kickboxing. It was derived from Muay Boran which was an "effective" martial art. However, Muay Thai has taken much of the moves from Muay Boran and dubbed many of them illegal/forbidden for many reasons, mainly that they were too deadly/damaging in a sporting/kickboxing arena.
I agree that sports these days have rules set in stone and are generally not altered drastically. I'm sorry if I provided a reference that proved too old for this discussion.
And whatever happened to trampoline basketball?
Worst episode ever.
[quote name='option.iv']Hmm, I can think of a couple. Take for example Muay Thai kickboxing. It was derived from Muay Boran which was an "effective" martial art. However, Muay Thai has taken much of the moves from Muay Boran and dubbed many of them illegal/forbidden for many reasons, mainly that they were too deadly/damaging in a sporting/kickboxing arena.
I agree that sports these days have rules set in stone and are generally not altered drastically. I'm sorry if I provided a reference that proved too old for this discussion.
.[/quote] First of all, you listed one.
That one's different though. The reasons they were taken out were largely for safety and to turn something that at one point wasn't a sport (war/fighting) into a sport. Also, the rule changes you listed, I imagine, didn't happen all at once.
You compared people training at Smash Bros to an athlete working their lives to be good at a sport. Strell said sports don't alter their rules drastically. His point was that video games are going to change at once. New games are constantly made. They are constantly redesigned. To expect the gameplay to stay the same is ridiculous. It's nothing like a sport because a sport doesn't just come out with "National Football League Melee" one year where there's different teams, where the stadiums they play are different, where the rules of what they can and can't do are different, and then come out with "National Football League Brawl" a few years later with completely different rules. The NFL, like Muay Thai, has made certain things illegal and tweeked rules. You can't facemask, horse collar tackle, tackle the QB certain ways, and do various other types of tackles/blocks. However, somebody who has been training for most of their life to be a good linebacker will still be a good linebacker regardless of these rule changes.
I agree that sports these days have rules set in stone and are generally not altered drastically. I'm sorry if I provided a reference that proved too old for this discussion.
.[/quote] First of all, you listed one.
That one's different though. The reasons they were taken out were largely for safety and to turn something that at one point wasn't a sport (war/fighting) into a sport. Also, the rule changes you listed, I imagine, didn't happen all at once.
You compared people training at Smash Bros to an athlete working their lives to be good at a sport. Strell said sports don't alter their rules drastically. His point was that video games are going to change at once. New games are constantly made. They are constantly redesigned. To expect the gameplay to stay the same is ridiculous. It's nothing like a sport because a sport doesn't just come out with "National Football League Melee" one year where there's different teams, where the stadiums they play are different, where the rules of what they can and can't do are different, and then come out with "National Football League Brawl" a few years later with completely different rules. The NFL, like Muay Thai, has made certain things illegal and tweeked rules. You can't facemask, horse collar tackle, tackle the QB certain ways, and do various other types of tackles/blocks. However, somebody who has been training for most of their life to be a good linebacker will still be a good linebacker regardless of these rule changes.
What's with the bitching about the speed? Did everyone forget how slow the original was? How each move actually required more strategy because of how slow they were pulled off?
I love melee, but I love the original as well for completely different reasons. If they have found a way to somehow strike a balance between the two, I'm all for it.
I love melee, but I love the original as well for completely different reasons. If they have found a way to somehow strike a balance between the two, I'm all for it.
elwood731
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[quote name='Strell']It's not like...bowlers, all of a sudden, can get armed with beehives, and launch said beehives at their opponents during the wind up.
"He's going for the strike, and OH! Here comes the beehive!"[/QUOTE]
While I don't particularly disagree with you, any avid bowler knows that the bowling environment can actually vary wildly from alley to alley, and even lane to lane, or day to day. Everything from wood, oil on the lanes, the pattern of the oil, etc. can vastly reshape the way a bowler bowls. So, in a way, the environment for them is never the same. Of course, football players could argue this field to field, etc. But that's not really very important
[quote name='Greetard']What's with the bitching about the speed? Did everyone forget how slow the original was? How each move actually required more strategy because of how slow they were pulled off?
I love melee, but I love the original as well for completely different reasons. If they have found a way to somehow strike a balance between the two, I'm all for it.[/quote]
I haven't forgotten. It's one of the reasons I still somewhat prefer the original Samsh over Melee. Melee seemed to be much more about reflexes, while the original seemed much more strategy based. Not to say there is no strategy in Melee--just not the same kind.
"He's going for the strike, and OH! Here comes the beehive!"[/QUOTE]
While I don't particularly disagree with you, any avid bowler knows that the bowling environment can actually vary wildly from alley to alley, and even lane to lane, or day to day. Everything from wood, oil on the lanes, the pattern of the oil, etc. can vastly reshape the way a bowler bowls. So, in a way, the environment for them is never the same. Of course, football players could argue this field to field, etc. But that's not really very important
[quote name='Greetard']What's with the bitching about the speed? Did everyone forget how slow the original was? How each move actually required more strategy because of how slow they were pulled off?
I love melee, but I love the original as well for completely different reasons. If they have found a way to somehow strike a balance between the two, I'm all for it.[/quote]
I haven't forgotten. It's one of the reasons I still somewhat prefer the original Samsh over Melee. Melee seemed to be much more about reflexes, while the original seemed much more strategy based. Not to say there is no strategy in Melee--just not the same kind.
[quote name='Rig']And how many people gushed and loved Melee the first time playing? I sure as hell didn't. It was frustrating, after years of the original, to adjust to the speed/craziness of Melee.[/quote]
Maybe b/c I didn't actually own a 64 and none of my friends owned a gamecube but I loved Melee at first sight. It did take me a long time to convince everyone else to fully move over though, then again we were working off months of the Smash not years.
Not a fan of the Peach Final Smash but if you can sleep someone in mid-air that might change my mind.
Maybe b/c I didn't actually own a 64 and none of my friends owned a gamecube but I loved Melee at first sight. It did take me a long time to convince everyone else to fully move over though, then again we were working off months of the Smash not years.
Not a fan of the Peach Final Smash but if you can sleep someone in mid-air that might change my mind.
V
Virtua
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All I know about wavedashing/L-Canceling is that it made some characters who would normally be near useless in melee much higher tier, like the ice climbers and Dr. Mario.
And some of the BEST matches in melee where ones that ended with an excellently timed wavedash/R-stick smash where you just felt the timing spot on and sent your opponent into orbit. I never quite mastered L-canceling, but was able to do it a little with Dr.Mario and his neutral air attack. I think wavedashing should stay, but the L-canceling should probably be made a little more difficult/less reliable.
I would be pretty dissapointed to see wavedashing removed, since it was pretty much put in on purpose in Melee. And I never played with items, and usually only 2 player versus on battlefield. Made for some of the most intense faceoffs I've ever had in a fighting game. I guess some people like the randomness of items, but it's always bugged me when people win because a snorlax pokeball spawned near them or some instant kill item.
And some of the BEST matches in melee where ones that ended with an excellently timed wavedash/R-stick smash where you just felt the timing spot on and sent your opponent into orbit. I never quite mastered L-canceling, but was able to do it a little with Dr.Mario and his neutral air attack. I think wavedashing should stay, but the L-canceling should probably be made a little more difficult/less reliable.
I would be pretty dissapointed to see wavedashing removed, since it was pretty much put in on purpose in Melee. And I never played with items, and usually only 2 player versus on battlefield. Made for some of the most intense faceoffs I've ever had in a fighting game. I guess some people like the randomness of items, but it's always bugged me when people win because a snorlax pokeball spawned near them or some instant kill item.
BlueLobstah
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From what I've seen from the game so far, I'm really excited. As much as the "naysayers" may say at the smash boards, this looks to be a very promising game. I don't want to see a Melee version 2, but would rather see them "tweak" things in new and different ways to make it a somewhat totally new experience. A majority of users probably are unaware of various techniques that exist, that they probably have no desire to learn. Besides, I'm sure that there's "new" glitches that will allow for new strategies in the game, and they'll probably find them.
Has anyone else watched the new subspace emissary videos? This looks like it will provide enough content to be its own game.
Has anyone else watched the new subspace emissary videos? This looks like it will provide enough content to be its own game.
(Kid Icarus + Mario) http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26651.html
(Donkey Kong + Diddy Kong) http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26643.html
(Donkey Kong + Diddy Kong) http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26643.html
V
Virtua
Guest
the whining on hardcore sites like smashboards is inevitable. Those people have played thousands of hours of melee and when something that's as integral to the game on a higher level as wavedashing and L-canceling isn't there, it's going to be very frustrating. Mind you, these aren't minor glitches or just certain character's quirks, nearly every character can take advantage of these, and they've been known for years.
No wavedashing is super disappointing, and if the reports of this being simplified for the mass market are true.. just awful. When I played with friends who weren't good at smash in melee, it worked just fine, it wasn't as if they lost out by not being able to do those advanced techniques.. It's not as if wavedashing makes you instantly win the game, either. It's got to be used at the right time to be effective, and it certainly can be countered. Kids who just start learning it and use it constantly get destroyed because that's all they're thinking about, not the rest of the character's moves, or how they work with wavedashing and if they're enhanced or harmed by it.
It's true they may have other advanced techniques that they're sneaking in there or added, or may be a part of a final balancing tune in the coming months.
I'm also sad to hear Peach's D-smash has been neutered. That skirt slash used to be devastating- causing up to 50% damage sometimes before even chaining into throws, and now it doesn't even kill in sudden death? wow.
No wavedashing is super disappointing, and if the reports of this being simplified for the mass market are true.. just awful. When I played with friends who weren't good at smash in melee, it worked just fine, it wasn't as if they lost out by not being able to do those advanced techniques.. It's not as if wavedashing makes you instantly win the game, either. It's got to be used at the right time to be effective, and it certainly can be countered. Kids who just start learning it and use it constantly get destroyed because that's all they're thinking about, not the rest of the character's moves, or how they work with wavedashing and if they're enhanced or harmed by it.
It's true they may have other advanced techniques that they're sneaking in there or added, or may be a part of a final balancing tune in the coming months.
I'm also sad to hear Peach's D-smash has been neutered. That skirt slash used to be devastating- causing up to 50% damage sometimes before even chaining into throws, and now it doesn't even kill in sudden death? wow.
Zen Davis
Banned
[quote name='option.iv']Sure you may call them losers, but in the end, those people desire to be winners in that game. And I don't think anyone can deny the existence of such people. Competition and 1-upping people are top priority for some, and for others it could be non-existant.[/quote]
I can't deny them but I can mock them.
I can't deny them but I can mock them.
[quote name='jer7583']and if the reports of this being simplified for the mass market are true.. just awful. [/quote]
I don't know why people are believing this. People are saying this on forums because the speed was turned down.
Again, people are saying this, because the speed was turned down.
In no way does this change the game demographic. Changing speeds from the 64 version to Melee did not change the demographic. Changing it again will not either.
Parents/grandparents aren't going to put down Brain Age for Brawl because of a speed change.
I don't know why people are believing this. People are saying this on forums because the speed was turned down.
Again, people are saying this, because the speed was turned down.
In no way does this change the game demographic. Changing speeds from the 64 version to Melee did not change the demographic. Changing it again will not either.
Parents/grandparents aren't going to put down Brain Age for Brawl because of a speed change.
Zen Davis
Banned
As I said in other threads, I don't understand why gamers who got their elderly relatives over the course of the year to pick up the Wii, haven't gotten their relatives to pick up any other new games? Even something like Smash is playable for the casual gamer but they won't know it until someone gives them some play time with the game. It's the same thing with the Wii. They didn't know they would like the system until they played it. Why not the same with other games?
[quote name='Zen Davis']As I said in other threads, I don't understand why gamers who got their elderly relatives over the course of the year to pick up the Wii, haven't gotten their relatives to pick up any other new games? Even something like Smash is playable for the casual gamer but they won't know it until someone gives them some play time with the game. It's the same thing with the Wii. They didn't know they would like the system until they played it. Why not the same with other games?[/quote]Because most games look bad to start with.
I don't think I have to "try" Chicken Shoot.
I don't think I have to "try" Chicken Shoot.
BlueLobstah
CAGiversary!
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- 17 (100%)
[quote name='Rig']I don't know why people are believing this. People are saying this on forums because the speed was turned down.
Again, people are saying this, because the speed was turned down.
In no way does this change the game demographic. Changing speeds from the 64 version to Melee did not change the demographic. Changing it again will not either.
Parents/grandparents aren't going to put down Brain Age for Brawl because of a speed change.[/QUOTE]
I don't really know if a speed reduction really qualifies as a "simplifying" anyway. A reduction in speed simply means you have more time for strategy in moves as opposed to massive button mashing. That brings no objections from me.
Again, people are saying this, because the speed was turned down.
In no way does this change the game demographic. Changing speeds from the 64 version to Melee did not change the demographic. Changing it again will not either.
Parents/grandparents aren't going to put down Brain Age for Brawl because of a speed change.[/QUOTE]
I don't really know if a speed reduction really qualifies as a "simplifying" anyway. A reduction in speed simply means you have more time for strategy in moves as opposed to massive button mashing. That brings no objections from me.
[quote name='Zen Davis']As I said in other threads, I don't understand why gamers who got their elderly relatives over the course of the year to pick up the Wii, haven't gotten their relatives to pick up any other new games? Even something like Smash is playable for the casual gamer but they won't know it until someone gives them some play time with the game. It's the same thing with the Wii. They didn't know they would like the system until they played it. Why not the same with other games?[/quote]
My comments were made at the stereotypical view most gamers have placed on the non-core crowd.
I agree that newcomers of any age/gender could pick up a game like Smash and enjoy it. I'm saying the comments that this game was dumbed down to appeal to a new audience are ridiculous.
My comments were made at the stereotypical view most gamers have placed on the non-core crowd.
I agree that newcomers of any age/gender could pick up a game like Smash and enjoy it. I'm saying the comments that this game was dumbed down to appeal to a new audience are ridiculous.
[quote name='Rig']I don't know why people are believing this. People are saying this on forums because the speed was turned down.
Again, people are saying this, because the speed was turned down.
In no way does this change the game demographic. Changing speeds from the 64 version to Melee did not change the demographic. Changing it again will not either.
Parents/grandparents aren't going to put down Brain Age for Brawl because of a speed change.[/QUOTE]
Well, people are noting the seemingly gone "l-cancel" which would take out the dimension of full and empty shffls, and the changing of timing out of the shield.
And as other people said, some characters in Melee, (Samus especially comes to mind) benefitted from wavedash. And since it's gone... Though there's always a possibility they made Samus better in other aspects. Though her missle cancel is gone.
DI seems to have been made greater, or rather, it's easier to "shift" out of a combo. Most likely addressed to reduce chain grabbing.
And jumping after a dodge makes dodging less critical, since they most likely wanted to reduce suicides. I would think more people would use the momentum dodge as much as they can.
It's clearly not just speed.
But this is clearly all on the Wiimote, which those people were forced to use. Who knows, maybe if they allow gamecube controller use, the gameplay could be different.
So we'll have to wait and see if this is going to be the final build or if there are going to be updates. Again I'd like to think in this 3-4 months time they would still be working on the game, maybe tweaking the gameplay.
Again, people are saying this, because the speed was turned down.
In no way does this change the game demographic. Changing speeds from the 64 version to Melee did not change the demographic. Changing it again will not either.
Parents/grandparents aren't going to put down Brain Age for Brawl because of a speed change.[/QUOTE]
Well, people are noting the seemingly gone "l-cancel" which would take out the dimension of full and empty shffls, and the changing of timing out of the shield.
And as other people said, some characters in Melee, (Samus especially comes to mind) benefitted from wavedash. And since it's gone... Though there's always a possibility they made Samus better in other aspects. Though her missle cancel is gone.
DI seems to have been made greater, or rather, it's easier to "shift" out of a combo. Most likely addressed to reduce chain grabbing.
And jumping after a dodge makes dodging less critical, since they most likely wanted to reduce suicides. I would think more people would use the momentum dodge as much as they can.
It's clearly not just speed.
But this is clearly all on the Wiimote, which those people were forced to use. Who knows, maybe if they allow gamecube controller use, the gameplay could be different.
So we'll have to wait and see if this is going to be the final build or if there are going to be updates. Again I'd like to think in this 3-4 months time they would still be working on the game, maybe tweaking the gameplay.
Zen Davis
Banned
[quote name='dallow']Because most games look bad to start with.
I don't think I have to "try" Chicken Shoot.[/quote] Dallow I mean more like games like MLB Power Pros, Super Mario Galaxy, Zack and Wiki, Super Paper Mario, Brawl or any other games that deserve to be played. Basically it seems after we got our relatives and friends last Thanksgiving and last Christmas to check out Wii Sports and after those people picked up their own Wii, they have had no gamer sense to know what else is worth picking up.
Admittedly there has been very little worth picking up, but to give a small example, we know Brawl is coming in February. They may on the other hand not even know that Brawl exists since all we've shown them is Wii Sports. The same goes for all these other games. They may have a blast with Zack and Wiki or MLB Power Pros or Galaxy but they don't know it yet since they aren't in the habit of looking at what new games are coming out.
I don't think I have to "try" Chicken Shoot.[/quote] Dallow I mean more like games like MLB Power Pros, Super Mario Galaxy, Zack and Wiki, Super Paper Mario, Brawl or any other games that deserve to be played. Basically it seems after we got our relatives and friends last Thanksgiving and last Christmas to check out Wii Sports and after those people picked up their own Wii, they have had no gamer sense to know what else is worth picking up.
Admittedly there has been very little worth picking up, but to give a small example, we know Brawl is coming in February. They may on the other hand not even know that Brawl exists since all we've shown them is Wii Sports. The same goes for all these other games. They may have a blast with Zack and Wiki or MLB Power Pros or Galaxy but they don't know it yet since they aren't in the habit of looking at what new games are coming out.
You know, I can't tell what people want out of Smash at this point.
I have seen countless arguments that the franchise itself is shallow, "meant for everyone," simple gameplay. "It's a Mary-o game!" I'd hear, as if that were something....valid to say.
And now I'm hearing tons of laments about "omfg, they r can has make it for teh everyone!!111" As if it were occupying some echelon that the same people said it didn't.
You people need to make up your goddamn minds about the whole thing. It was always meant to be the simple fighting game for everyone. The special movies are one button plus a direction. I remember when I thought Street Fighter 2 had difficult moves, but now I see them as so simple it hurts, that when Smash was originally announced, I thought Nintendo was crazy.
And then I played it, and it kicked ass, and that is all there was to it. And I found that I could utilize a bunch of different techs that gave me an edge over other people. And then I found that there were people who could trump even (what I had thought was) my awesome skill. And I'm willing to bet even those people have an entirely different level of people that would destroy them.
Point being is that the game has always been able to be for everyone, and yet contained enough variation available to those willing to seek it out and perfect those skills.
But again it's always meant to be a game marketed for everyone. I think that's the whole reason that it uses mascots that are (for the most part) highly recognizable.
All these advanced moves everyone found were found. There's no mention of them anywhere in official documentation. Instead, they were discovered and perfected by pioneering gamers who - as DMK once told me - "approach the game much differently than you or I."
Now, maybe Sakurai hates all of that, and wants all of it out. Or maybe he's looking for different techniques to put in. We don't know, and frankly we won't know until the final version goes gold and gets pressed onto some silicon. But I somehow doubt he wants to "nerf the whole game" and piss off those people, because he's said time and time again that the people making this game are some of the biggest Smash players ever. Even Kojima said "the game feels finished" when he tried it out, and that was back in summer or spring.
It's four months away. We have no clue about how the final version of the game will ultimately control. All we know is the impressions from a build of the game that certainly isn't final.
Maybe that's what the additional two months of development are for. Originally, the only people who played it was the dev team (which was reportedly composed of people who have played it thousands upon thousands of hours). But this is the first time we've seen it in the wild and playable by other people.
Sakurai seems like an intelligent developer - Nintendo went the extra mile to get him back on board to make it.
And even if worse comes to worse and the whole thing IS simplified beyond belief, then people ought to be able to 1) find new ways to have advanced techs in it, and 2) adapt to what is there already.
Have some damn patience, people.
I have seen countless arguments that the franchise itself is shallow, "meant for everyone," simple gameplay. "It's a Mary-o game!" I'd hear, as if that were something....valid to say.
And now I'm hearing tons of laments about "omfg, they r can has make it for teh everyone!!111" As if it were occupying some echelon that the same people said it didn't.
You people need to make up your goddamn minds about the whole thing. It was always meant to be the simple fighting game for everyone. The special movies are one button plus a direction. I remember when I thought Street Fighter 2 had difficult moves, but now I see them as so simple it hurts, that when Smash was originally announced, I thought Nintendo was crazy.
And then I played it, and it kicked ass, and that is all there was to it. And I found that I could utilize a bunch of different techs that gave me an edge over other people. And then I found that there were people who could trump even (what I had thought was) my awesome skill. And I'm willing to bet even those people have an entirely different level of people that would destroy them.
Point being is that the game has always been able to be for everyone, and yet contained enough variation available to those willing to seek it out and perfect those skills.
But again it's always meant to be a game marketed for everyone. I think that's the whole reason that it uses mascots that are (for the most part) highly recognizable.
All these advanced moves everyone found were found. There's no mention of them anywhere in official documentation. Instead, they were discovered and perfected by pioneering gamers who - as DMK once told me - "approach the game much differently than you or I."
Now, maybe Sakurai hates all of that, and wants all of it out. Or maybe he's looking for different techniques to put in. We don't know, and frankly we won't know until the final version goes gold and gets pressed onto some silicon. But I somehow doubt he wants to "nerf the whole game" and piss off those people, because he's said time and time again that the people making this game are some of the biggest Smash players ever. Even Kojima said "the game feels finished" when he tried it out, and that was back in summer or spring.
It's four months away. We have no clue about how the final version of the game will ultimately control. All we know is the impressions from a build of the game that certainly isn't final.
Maybe that's what the additional two months of development are for. Originally, the only people who played it was the dev team (which was reportedly composed of people who have played it thousands upon thousands of hours). But this is the first time we've seen it in the wild and playable by other people.
Sakurai seems like an intelligent developer - Nintendo went the extra mile to get him back on board to make it.
And even if worse comes to worse and the whole thing IS simplified beyond belief, then people ought to be able to 1) find new ways to have advanced techs in it, and 2) adapt to what is there already.
Have some damn patience, people.
Zen Davis
Banned
[quote name='Strell']You know, I can't tell what people want out of Smash at this point.
I have seen countless arguments that the franchise itself is shallow, "meant for everyone," simple gameplay. "It's a Mary-o game!" I'd hear, as if that were something....valid to say.
And now I'm hearing tons of laments about "omfg, they r can has make it for teh everyone!!111" As if it were occupying some echelon that the same people said it didn't.
You people need to make up your goddamn minds about the whole thing. It was always meant to be the simple fighting game for everyone. The special movies are one button plus a direction. I remember when I thought Street Fighter 2 had difficult moves, but now I see them as so simple it hurts, that when Smash was originally announced, I thought Nintendo was crazy.
And then I played it, and it kicked ass, and that is all there was to it. And I found that I could utilize a bunch of different techs that gave me an edge over other people. And then I found that there were people who could trump even (what I had thought was) my awesome skill. And I'm willing to bet even those people have an entirely different level of people that would destroy them.
Point being is that the game has always been able to be for everyone, and yet contained enough variation available to those willing to seek it out and perfect those skills.
But again it's always meant to be a game marketed for everyone. I think that's the whole reason that it uses mascots that are (for the most part) highly recognizable.
All these advanced moves everyone found were found. There's no mention of them anywhere in official documentation. Instead, they were discovered and perfected by pioneering gamers who - as DMK once told me - "approach the game much differently than you or I."
Now, maybe Sakurai hates all of that, and wants all of it out. Or maybe he's looking for different techniques to put in. We don't know, and frankly we won't know until the final version goes gold and gets pressed onto some silicon. But I somehow doubt he wants to "nerf the whole game" and piss off those people, because he's said time and time again that the people making this game are some of the biggest Smash players ever. Even Kojima said "the game feels finished" when he tried it out, and that was back in summer or spring.
It's four months away. We have no clue about how the final version of the game will ultimately control. All we know is the impressions from a build of the game that certainly isn't final.
Maybe that's what the additional two months of development are for. Originally, the only people who played it was the dev team (which was reportedly composed of people who have played it thousands upon thousands of hours). But this is the first time we've seen it in the wild and playable by other people.
Sakurai seems like an intelligent developer - Nintendo went the extra mile to get him back on board to make it.
And even if worse comes to worse and the whole thing IS simplified beyond belief, then people ought to be able to 1) find new ways to have advanced techs in it, and 2) adapt to what is there already.
Have some damn patience, people.[/quote]
Vocal minority.
I have seen countless arguments that the franchise itself is shallow, "meant for everyone," simple gameplay. "It's a Mary-o game!" I'd hear, as if that were something....valid to say.
And now I'm hearing tons of laments about "omfg, they r can has make it for teh everyone!!111" As if it were occupying some echelon that the same people said it didn't.
You people need to make up your goddamn minds about the whole thing. It was always meant to be the simple fighting game for everyone. The special movies are one button plus a direction. I remember when I thought Street Fighter 2 had difficult moves, but now I see them as so simple it hurts, that when Smash was originally announced, I thought Nintendo was crazy.
And then I played it, and it kicked ass, and that is all there was to it. And I found that I could utilize a bunch of different techs that gave me an edge over other people. And then I found that there were people who could trump even (what I had thought was) my awesome skill. And I'm willing to bet even those people have an entirely different level of people that would destroy them.
Point being is that the game has always been able to be for everyone, and yet contained enough variation available to those willing to seek it out and perfect those skills.
But again it's always meant to be a game marketed for everyone. I think that's the whole reason that it uses mascots that are (for the most part) highly recognizable.
All these advanced moves everyone found were found. There's no mention of them anywhere in official documentation. Instead, they were discovered and perfected by pioneering gamers who - as DMK once told me - "approach the game much differently than you or I."
Now, maybe Sakurai hates all of that, and wants all of it out. Or maybe he's looking for different techniques to put in. We don't know, and frankly we won't know until the final version goes gold and gets pressed onto some silicon. But I somehow doubt he wants to "nerf the whole game" and piss off those people, because he's said time and time again that the people making this game are some of the biggest Smash players ever. Even Kojima said "the game feels finished" when he tried it out, and that was back in summer or spring.
It's four months away. We have no clue about how the final version of the game will ultimately control. All we know is the impressions from a build of the game that certainly isn't final.
Maybe that's what the additional two months of development are for. Originally, the only people who played it was the dev team (which was reportedly composed of people who have played it thousands upon thousands of hours). But this is the first time we've seen it in the wild and playable by other people.
Sakurai seems like an intelligent developer - Nintendo went the extra mile to get him back on board to make it.
And even if worse comes to worse and the whole thing IS simplified beyond belief, then people ought to be able to 1) find new ways to have advanced techs in it, and 2) adapt to what is there already.
Have some damn patience, people.[/quote]
Vocal minority.
[quote name='Zen Davis']
Admittedly there has been very little worth picking up, but to give a small example, we know Brawl is coming in February. They may on the other hand not even know that Brawl exists since all we've shown them is Wii Sports. .[/QUOTE]
Why do they need to know about a game 4 months ahead of time? I'd be shocked if there wasn't a huge marketing blitz for it. Will probably see a decent one for Mario as well.
But really, Mario, Zack and Wiki and Power Pros are pretty traditional games, I don't think many the "wii sports/brain age" gamer demographic would be very likely to get into those games anyway.
Probably not Brawl either. It is a simple party, fighting game. But cleary not the same kind of simple as Wii Sports or Brain Age where anyone can play right from the start.
Admittedly there has been very little worth picking up, but to give a small example, we know Brawl is coming in February. They may on the other hand not even know that Brawl exists since all we've shown them is Wii Sports. .[/QUOTE]
Why do they need to know about a game 4 months ahead of time? I'd be shocked if there wasn't a huge marketing blitz for it. Will probably see a decent one for Mario as well.
But really, Mario, Zack and Wiki and Power Pros are pretty traditional games, I don't think many the "wii sports/brain age" gamer demographic would be very likely to get into those games anyway.
Probably not Brawl either. It is a simple party, fighting game. But cleary not the same kind of simple as Wii Sports or Brain Age where anyone can play right from the start.
Zen Davis
Banned
[quote name='dmaul1114']Why do they need to know about a game 4 months ahead of time? I'd be shocked if there wasn't a huge marketing blitz for it. Will probably see a decent one for Mario as well.
But really, Mario, Zack and Wiki and Power Pros are pretty traditional games, I don't think many the "wii sports/brain age" gamer demographic would be very likely to get into those games anyway.
Probably not Brawl either. It is a simple party, fighting game. But cleary not the same kind of simple as Wii Sports or Brain Age where anyone can play right from the start.[/quote]
I believe the Wii Sports gamer is different from the Brain Age gamer. One is a series of games. The other is an interactive textbook. Basically though the goal of Nintendo was to get people to be comfortable with videogames and eventually helping them grow into more 'hardcore' gamers.
Traditional or not, Powers Pros, since that's the only one I've played, is simple and easy enough for anyone to get into as long as they've played Wii Sports and yet it's deep enough for the person who wants to take more time with it. Super Paper Mario is another game that is rediculously simple that I see our parents and grandparents easily getting a handle on after a little practice and playtime.
The basic point is that how will these people, who never come to boards like CAG or Gamefaqs or go to sites like IGN, develop an interest in new games? You can't just say look for Nintendo to do the marketing because that's extremely hit or miss. Most of us have been hyped for months for games like Brawl. These other people won't have a clue unless they somehow manage to turn on their television at the right time to catch a Smash Brothers commericial.
But really, Mario, Zack and Wiki and Power Pros are pretty traditional games, I don't think many the "wii sports/brain age" gamer demographic would be very likely to get into those games anyway.
Probably not Brawl either. It is a simple party, fighting game. But cleary not the same kind of simple as Wii Sports or Brain Age where anyone can play right from the start.[/quote]
I believe the Wii Sports gamer is different from the Brain Age gamer. One is a series of games. The other is an interactive textbook. Basically though the goal of Nintendo was to get people to be comfortable with videogames and eventually helping them grow into more 'hardcore' gamers.
Traditional or not, Powers Pros, since that's the only one I've played, is simple and easy enough for anyone to get into as long as they've played Wii Sports and yet it's deep enough for the person who wants to take more time with it. Super Paper Mario is another game that is rediculously simple that I see our parents and grandparents easily getting a handle on after a little practice and playtime.
The basic point is that how will these people, who never come to boards like CAG or Gamefaqs or go to sites like IGN, develop an interest in new games? You can't just say look for Nintendo to do the marketing because that's extremely hit or miss. Most of us have been hyped for months for games like Brawl. These other people won't have a clue unless they somehow manage to turn on their television at the right time to catch a Smash Brothers commericial.
[quote name='Zen Davis']
The basic point is that how will these people, who never come to boards like CAG or Gamefaqs or go to sites like IGN, develop an interest in new games? You can't just say look for Nintendo to do the marketing because that's extremely hit or miss. Most of us have been hyped for months for games like Brawl. These other people won't have a clue unless they somehow manage to turn on their television at the right time to catch a Smash Brothers commericial.[/QUOTE]
Fair point I guess. But personally, I don't really want those people to buy into traditional games as you can be pretty sure it will eventually lead to dumbing down of such games. It's not happening yet that I can tell, as Metroid Mario and Smash Bros seem to be on par with their predecessors, but if they keep going the casual route it seems inevitable to me.
Aslo, disagree on Super Paper Mario though, I don't think most non-gamers would have the patience to put up with the ridiculous amount of pointless text to enjoy the simple gameplay.
The basic point is that how will these people, who never come to boards like CAG or Gamefaqs or go to sites like IGN, develop an interest in new games? You can't just say look for Nintendo to do the marketing because that's extremely hit or miss. Most of us have been hyped for months for games like Brawl. These other people won't have a clue unless they somehow manage to turn on their television at the right time to catch a Smash Brothers commericial.[/QUOTE]
Fair point I guess. But personally, I don't really want those people to buy into traditional games as you can be pretty sure it will eventually lead to dumbing down of such games. It's not happening yet that I can tell, as Metroid Mario and Smash Bros seem to be on par with their predecessors, but if they keep going the casual route it seems inevitable to me.
Aslo, disagree on Super Paper Mario though, I don't think most non-gamers would have the patience to put up with the ridiculous amount of pointless text to enjoy the simple gameplay.
Zen Davis
Banned
[quote name='dmaul1114']Fair point I guess. But personally, I don't really want those people to buy into traditional games as you can be pretty sure it will eventually lead to dumbing down of such games. It's not happening yet that I can tell, as Metroid Mario and Smash Bros seem to be on par with their predecessors, but if they keep going the casual route it seems inevitable to me.[/quote]
But if those people eventually get better at tradional games, which is entirely possible, then the learning curve may not get dumbed down as much as you think. In every game there is a learning curve. Super Mario Bros. for example had a hell of a learning curve where you needed some patience to be able to get through the levels. They toned it down through Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World. Are those games any worse for it? I think not.
On the other hand, Prime 3 was definitely toned down without a doubt. Only died three times in the entire game. It's the same reason Brawl has single Wii-mote controls. Galaxy seems to be the only one that looks to make it with a hardcore level of difficulty and even then Miyamoto was talking about how people in his development team were telling him that the game was too hard.
But if those people eventually get better at tradional games, which is entirely possible, then the learning curve may not get dumbed down as much as you think. In every game there is a learning curve. Super Mario Bros. for example had a hell of a learning curve where you needed some patience to be able to get through the levels. They toned it down through Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World. Are those games any worse for it? I think not.
On the other hand, Prime 3 was definitely toned down without a doubt. Only died three times in the entire game. It's the same reason Brawl has single Wii-mote controls. Galaxy seems to be the only one that looks to make it with a hardcore level of difficulty and even then Miyamoto was talking about how people in his development team were telling him that the game was too hard.
Come on. They're old. They have nothing better to do.Aslo, disagree on Super Paper Mario though, I don't think most non-gamers would have the patience to put up with the ridiculous amount of pointless text to enjoy the simple gameplay.
[quote name='Zen Davis']As I said in other threads, I don't understand why gamers who got their elderly relatives over the course of the year to pick up the Wii, haven't gotten their relatives to pick up any other new games?[/QUOTE]
Missed this earlier....
You make it sound like people recruited their elderly relatives to be gamers and have a vested interest in it.
In most cases people probably just played the Wii at a relatives house, and decided they want one. The relative with the Wii probably couldn't give a shit less that they bought one or what games they buy on it.
Missed this earlier....
You make it sound like people recruited their elderly relatives to be gamers and have a vested interest in it.
In most cases people probably just played the Wii at a relatives house, and decided they want one. The relative with the Wii probably couldn't give a shit less that they bought one or what games they buy on it.
Zen Davis
Banned
[quote name='dmaul1114']Missed this earlier....
You make it sound like people recruited their elderly relatives to be gamers and have a vested interest in it.
In most cases people probably just played the Wii at a relatives house, and decided they want one. The relative with the Wii probably couldn't give a shit less that they bought one or what games they buy on it.[/quote]
We agree to disagree. You feel that there is no point. I believe there is. I believe with the right games, the 'casual relative' can be coerced into becoming a better (as in being able to play more skill oriented gamse) gamer but because the 'casual' has no idea what may or may not be good, someone should help them out by presenting them games that are worth playing and in the long run, it can help the more hardcore, skill oriented games sell more. This in theory will get us more of these games.
You make it sound like people recruited their elderly relatives to be gamers and have a vested interest in it.
In most cases people probably just played the Wii at a relatives house, and decided they want one. The relative with the Wii probably couldn't give a shit less that they bought one or what games they buy on it.
[/quote] We agree to disagree. You feel that there is no point. I believe there is. I believe with the right games, the 'casual relative' can be coerced into becoming a better (as in being able to play more skill oriented gamse) gamer but because the 'casual' has no idea what may or may not be good, someone should help them out by presenting them games that are worth playing and in the long run, it can help the more hardcore, skill oriented games sell more. This in theory will get us more of these games.
[quote name='Zen Davis']We agree to disagree. You feel that there is no point. I believe there is. I believe with the right games, the 'casual relative' can be coerced into becoming a better (as in being able to play more skill oriented gamse) gamer but because the 'casual' has no idea what may or may not be good, someone should help them out by presenting them games that are worth playing and in the long run, it can help the more hardcore, skill oriented games sell more. This in theory will get us more of these games.[/QUOTE]
No. I see why you may feel like that and why people would want to do that (i.e. share their top hobby).
But I don't' think most people care about what other people are buying or playing, and that's why people are "telling there elderly relatives" about other games. They just don't care. They buy games they like and play them, and that's the end of that.
So I was just answering the question of why people aren't doing it. Not arguing that you or others do it. As much as I don't care what other people play, I care even less about what some gamers tell other people they should play.
No. I see why you may feel like that and why people would want to do that (i.e. share their top hobby).
But I don't' think most people care about what other people are buying or playing, and that's why people are "telling there elderly relatives" about other games. They just don't care. They buy games they like and play them, and that's the end of that.
So I was just answering the question of why people aren't doing it. Not arguing that you or others do it. As much as I don't care what other people play, I care even less about what some gamers tell other people they should play.
BattleChicken
CAGiversary!
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[quote name='The Crotch']
"WHAT? Marines have SHIELDS?
that, it's gonna be just like Warcraft now!"
Honest to god, there have been pages and pages dedicated to whether or not the "Mothership" unit will make the game imbalanced (as though they knew its rate of fire, if it had any specific weaknesses, its exact speed of movement, its cost in relation to other units, the rate of fire of any other AA units, or - to put it somewhat simpler -ing anything). Pages about whether that new Terran mech will replace the tank, as though they had a clue what the they were talking about. And pages about whether or not giving shields to Terran Marines will make the game like Warcraft. As it turned out, the shields work nothing like those of Warcraft, but everyone still bitched about it.[/quote]
Don't talk about Starcraft II Crotch.. its the one game I want more than smash brothers right now, and you are causing me undue distress.
"WHAT? Marines have SHIELDS?
that, it's gonna be just like Warcraft now!"Honest to god, there have been pages and pages dedicated to whether or not the "Mothership" unit will make the game imbalanced (as though they knew its rate of fire, if it had any specific weaknesses, its exact speed of movement, its cost in relation to other units, the rate of fire of any other AA units, or - to put it somewhat simpler -
ing anything). Pages about whether that new Terran mech will replace the tank, as though they had a clue what the they were talking about. And pages about whether or not giving shields to Terran Marines will make the game like Warcraft. As it turned out, the shields work nothing like those of Warcraft, but everyone still bitched about it.[/quote]Don't talk about Starcraft II Crotch.. its the one game I want more than smash brothers right now, and you are causing me undue distress.
V
Virtua
Guest
This sounds sketchy, but I had read sometime last year when I was hardcore into melee and had a group that played consistently that wavedashing actually was mentioned in the game's development under a different name and that they knew of it.
Wavedashing is fun and I wants it. I also prefer the melee speed, but that's me. There's a simple solution to the speed issue, that Street Fighter 2 Turbo on the SNES taught us many years ago.
Adjustable speed. Make it happen.
Wavedashing is fun and I wants it. I also prefer the melee speed, but that's me. There's a simple solution to the speed issue, that Street Fighter 2 Turbo on the SNES taught us many years ago.
Adjustable speed. Make it happen.
bread's done