Supreme Court rules against racial discrimination in suprisingly close vote

FFS. These laws are applied when they occur in public.

Which is why he was not arrested until he stepped outside his front door.

Why did he not want to cooperate earlier and step outside early on?

Because he, unlike you, understands what the law is.

He couldn't be charged with disorderly until he brought stepped outside his house acting the way he did.

Was it that hard to figure out? I'd hate to think so, but you've offered nothing to the contrary.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']FFS. These laws are applied when they occur in public.

Which is why he was not arrested until he stepped outside his front door.

Why did he not want to cooperate earlier and step outside early on?

Because he, unlike you, understands what the law is.

He couldn't be charged with disorderly until he brought stepped outside his house acting the way he did.

Was it that hard to figure out? I'd hate to think so, but you've offered nothing to the contrary.[/QUOTE]

All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering.
http://goatmilk.wordpress.com/2009/...-his-arrest-racism-or-cops-behaving-stupidly/

Lets put aside Gates conjecture that he was going to be arrested no matter what he did (if he had stepped outside and been arrested right away the Conn. police would have a lawsuit on their hands, and for good reason). Here Gates admits he has no idea what the law was, he was acting out of instinct. Do you think if he had any idea of what the law was he would have thrown his little temper tantrum and refused to answer the officer's questions? Can you find one any rational lawyer who would advise his client to act as Gates did from this point onward? I feel like you're nit-picking here because you don't want to see the overall picture, that no matter who you are if you mouth off to an officer and refuse to cooperate they're going to treat you as a suspect and pull you in the first chance they get. In this case feel Crowley also had a bad feeling about the situation and wanted to get it under control as quickly as possible. It may appear that I am being generous to Officer Crowley, but it's only after seeing him talk about it, comparing his account to Gates' account, and looking at Crowley's record (which includes commendations from his chief and fellow officers and a stint where he was hand-picked to teach cops how to avoid racial profiling). Gates may have book smarts but he lacks street smarts.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/04/911-police-officer-r.html
http://arkansasmatters.com/content/news/weirdnews/fulltext?cid=219041

Hey look at this a white person arrested, but then she was let go because she was charged with breaking a law that didn't exist. By your logic the only explanation is the cop must be racist against white people.

Or you could realize a lot of cops are jerks to everyone and without knowing how Crowley treats white people who piss him off you have no baseline to compare his actions against, so no information can be assumed and to do so would be closed minded and biased.[/QUOTE]

You gave two examples where the cops had no idea if the person was white or black. If I had to bet, I'm pretty sure the operator could've believed that he was talking to a black person if he or she was swearing excessively. Unfortunately, it's one stereotype that gets attributed to black people. I've heard country white folk curse with the best of them but I'll still hear them get really pissed when a black man says motherfucker once.

I think it'll be hard for any of you to admit racism is still alive and well in America until you actually walk in a black man's shoes. We're usually the first to get questioned. We're the first to get pulled over. I've had cops threaten to arrest me for calling him sir. I guess he thought I was being disrespectful.

Hell, I heard "I hate $$$$ers" just last night. It wasn't a cop but the fact that someone would just blurt it out just for the fuck of it kind of puts everyone's view of a socially diverse America where everyone is accepted in the laugher category.

My wife's cousin would just threaten to date a black man when she wanted to piss off her parents. Threaten. Not bring a black man home for dinner. All she had to do was say, "I'm gonna find the first black boy I can find and he'll be my boyfriend." It sounds like something a kid would say but her dad would fly into a rage.
 
"What the hell kind of country is this where I can't hate a man unless he's white?"

Thank you, Hank Hill.

/didn't read this topic at all
 
[quote name='depascal22']I think it'll be hard for any of you to admit racism is still alive and well in America [...][/QUOTE]

Has anyone here said racism doesn't exist?

Is anyone willing to stand up and say it now?

The fact is, you're jumping at the bit to call this incident racism. White man did bad to black guy, so it *MUST* be racism. Because all white men are racists.

Yeah, racism exists. It comes from everywhere.
 
[quote name='depascal22']You gave two examples where the cops had no idea if the person was white or black. If I had to bet, I'm pretty sure the operator could've believed that he was talking to a black person if he or she was swearing excessively. Unfortunately, it's one stereotype that gets attributed to black people. I've heard country white folk curse with the best of them but I'll still hear them get really pissed when a black man says motherfucker once.[/QUOTE]
I've never heard the of that stereo type.

And Actually you can usually tell if some one is black or white by there voice, second the had to arrest her is person so they knew she was white when they arrested her.

More over here are some other cases where white people where mistreated by cops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FnY6OKN3RI

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1640194.html
[quote name='depascal22']
I think it'll be hard for any of you to admit racism is still alive and well in America until you actually walk in a black man's shoes. We're usually the first to get questioned. We're the first to get pulled over. I've had cops threaten to arrest me for calling him sir. I guess he thought I was being disrespectful. [/QUOTE]
No one said there is not racism, but that doesn't mean every time some one is a jerk to a black person that they are a racists.
[quote name='depascal22']
Hell, I heard "I hate $$$$ers" just last night. It wasn't a cop but the fact that someone would just blurt it out just for the fuck of it kind of puts everyone's view of a socially diverse America where everyone is accepted in the laugher category. [/QUOTE]
Wow, you mean Americans will say crude, improper, and rascist things and find it funny?
[quote name='depascal22']
My wife's cousin would just threaten to date a black man when she wanted to piss off her parents. Threaten. Not bring a black man home for dinner. All she had to do was say, "I'm gonna find the first black boy I can find and he'll be my boyfriend." It sounds like something a kid would say but her dad would fly into a rage.[/QUOTE]
Unless your wife's cousin is the daughter of officer Crowly this has nothing to do with this debate.
 
[quote name='camoor']I feel like you're nit-picking here because you don't want to see the overall picture, that no matter who you are if you mouth off to an officer and refuse to cooperate they're going to treat you as a suspect and pull you in the first chance they get. In this case feel Crowley also had a bad feeling about the situation and wanted to get it under control as quickly as possible.[/QUOTE]

Except that (1) you are correct that mouthing off can get you in trouble with the police. I'm not saying that they should, or do, shrug it off. But I am saying that you are more likely to experience those cuffs for mouthing off if you are black. Also, that (2) what do you consider getting "the situation...under control?" What more is there to do now that you've established that the person you're questioning is the owner and resident of the house, and not, in fact, a burglar? What situation are you controlling when you've dropped the pursuit of said burglar to arrest the owner of the house for Disorderly?

[quote name='UncleBob']See, you're looking at this and then deciding that every situation is anti-black. Do you at least recognize the fact that this situation *could* have nothing to do with race?[/QUOTE]

First things first, here's your money quote if that's all you want: yes, there is indeed a chance - a glint of a glint of a chance, that this has nothing to do with race. I would also remark that said chance is improbably low - but it still exists. Like "Cubs win the World Series" low.

Now, if you want a genuine answer (and I suspect you do, despite my general lack of niceties to you), I would argue (as I have before) that racism ≠ Crowley having malicious and/or racist thoughts. It's not "fuck this black asshole" that has to be considered to be racist.

It's institutional racism - the justified racism that I contend exists. Rationalized, justified, explained differential treatment due to minority status. The kind of racism that people support, like in Michelle Malkin's "In Defense of Internment." It's the "if you see something strange or suspicious in your neighborhood, you report it to the police." Except, in our America today, which is a helluva lot less integrated geographically than we think, simply being nonwhite in a neighborhood is enough to trigger suspicions. There's plenty of support for the idea of "driving while black" - after all, we applaud those who look after their own neighborhood to report to the police that things seem amiss. Unfortunately, things being amiss can simply mean "I see people who aren't from this neighborhood," and that is most easily triggered by the visible displays of nonwhiteness.

Which, as someone (elprincipe?) pointed out, could have come from the person who initially made the 911 call - not someone Gates knows, mind.

There were half a dozen police on the premises when Gates was arrested - why so many? Now I'm sure Cambridge is a more "ticket for speeding" kind of police jurisdiction, so nothing better to do might explain such a response. Was it fear of a burglary, which might be dangerous? Or fear of the respondent's race? Could be.

I think an audit study would show how the Cambridge police respond to similar emergency calls. Crowley's record may suggest he is an exemplar, but I'd like to see his record as well. As public servants given great power over citizens, this is not too much to ask, IMO.

Crowley may have acted with no racial malice, but that doesn't mean racism did not occur. Amadou Diallo, Omar J Edwards, and Dexter Brown may not have been shot/killed (save Brown) had they been white - but that doesn't mean they were shot because the firing officer(s) hated blacks. So it is indeed racism in those cases, but a more unconscious sort of stereotype internalization.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - conscious, willed disgust/dislike of another race is not the only racism in this world by a long shot; moreover, it's the least dangerous kind, because we're unaware that we possess the unconscious variety, and therefore do nothing to destroy it.

Speaking of overt racism, I saw a cat the other day (while driving to Pittsburgh) wearing a t-shirt that said "Adolf Hitler European Tour 1939-1943" on the back, with a list of cities he conquered and a list of locations of camps. While disgusting on the surface, that's not the kind of racism I'm afraid of. We all know that man is racist. It is those, however, who revile at the idea of this kind of racism but perpetuate their own differential treatment with no malice that are more dangerous. I.e., those who don't consider the possibility of testing bias in the case of how the tests were written for these firefighters. But that's on the topic of this thread, which, at this point, is remarkably off topic.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_caller

No race mentioned?

Ouch.

There were half a dozen police on the premises when Gates was arrested - why so many? Now I'm sure Cambridge is a more "ticket for speeding" kind of police jurisdiction, so nothing better to do might explain such a response. Was it fear of a burglary, which might be dangerous? Or fear of the respondent's race? Could be.

Those cops look extremely fearful of Gates race.

Henry_Gates_Porch_072109.jpg
 
Read the police report. She mentioned race after the call and before any action was initiated by Crowley.

This is nothing more than semantic obfuscation; paying it any attention is to divert from the actual issue.
 
Myke, after reading your posts on racial relations over the years, it's starting to almost feel as if you are trying to convince us that there is no hope for it fairness at all, and the only way to make everyone get along is for something like 100% segregation - like on a state level. Or perhaps we can just pass some laws that only people of color can legally work with other people of color in any business or law matters. Seriously - It seems like you are that skeptical and jaded.

Either way, given a choice, I'd rather live in a totally segregated country/world than one where I am required to feel and actively practice white guilt, and strive for reparations and affirmative action in all we do. But before you try and say "well of course you would, your white, you'd get the better segregated portion of society in that case" - Know that really I am just sick of feeling somehow politically 'required' to bring a bag of historical racial complexities to every interaction I have with a race other than my own.
 
yeah. not at all what I would suggest.

I'm interested in getting people to consider racism to be greater and more ingrained in our society than the dude in the Hitler shirt. That's the first step. And I'm not sure what the next step would be.

Education and disarming of privilege are my main concerns.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Read the police report. She mentioned race after the call and before any action was initiated by Crowley.

This is nothing more than semantic obfuscation; paying it any attention is to divert from the actual issue.[/QUOTE]

I shouldn't have to repeat myself. She didn't bring up race at point A is immaterial if she did bring it up at point B.
 
You never had to repeat yourself; I didn't post it specifically for you to listen to and comment on. If I did I would have posted: Audio of the call for myke to listen to because I care oh so much for his opinion on the situation.
 
It's simply irrelevant in light of your earlier claim that "No race mentioned? Ouch."

Race WAS mentioned, and you refuse to respond to that.

You're willfully peddling an incorrect account of events by ignoring something you KNOW occurred.

Which makes you a liar, and an unreliable source of information.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']yeah. not at all what I would suggest.

I'm interested in getting people to consider racism to be greater and more ingrained in our society than the dude in the Hitler shirt. That's the first step. And I'm not sure what the next step would be.

Education and disarming of privilege are my main concerns.[/QUOTE]

Noble goals, so why are you wasting your time tilting at windmills? You're acting like those creationists who start with a theory and work their way backwards.

You know what I see here - I see an imperious professor who is shocked that he was treated like a common citizen. I see a guy used to deferential treatment being outraged that he was treated with suspicion by a working-class officer (who showed up to the scene with a tip about burglers and a broken door), and then shocked when the officer arrested him after he stopped cooperating and threw a temper tantrum that drew an audience.

Now you can opine on your pop psychology theories about the subconscious of society (that's some high-concept BS that probably goes over well with your uni buddies). I'd rather hear what Gates said, hear what Crowley said, look at the histories of the two men, and use this information to theorize on what actually happened here in this case instead of coming in with a bunch of nonsensical Freudian subconscious baggage that predetermines my opinion on the matter.
 
Gates' race wasn't mentioned, or at the very least someone mistakenly identified him as "hispanic" as the call put it. The call mentioned seeing 1 person and not seeing another, but saw 2 suitcases (large?), and I'm guessing that's where the idea of 2 people came from. I don't know who the cop on the phone was, but at the very least it seemed like he didn't want to go out there.
 
This just proves Officer Crowley is a liar.

He said the girl described them as black. She repeats herself about 3 times clearly saying she didn't get a good look at them in those calls.
 
[quote name='HowStern']This just proves Officer Crowley is a liar.

He said the girl described them as black. She repeats herself about 3 times clearly saying she didn't get a good look at them in those calls.[/QUOTE]

Now *this* is interesting. Is there an transcript of the call anywhere?

I still want the police to release the audio they have...
 
[quote name='HowStern']This just proves Officer Crowley is a liar.

He said the girl described them as black. She repeats herself about 3 times clearly saying she didn't get a good look at them in those calls.[/QUOTE]

not really. if you read the police report crowley talks with the 911 caller in person before approaching the house. she might not have said their race on the phone, but while waiitng for the police to arrive she may have seen they were black and told crowley when he arrived.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html
 
^Yeah, I was thinking that but I'm pretty sure in the audio of the call she says "they are in the house now I didn't see what they looked like." Implying she missed her chance to catch a glimpse.

I'm not positive though. I don't feel like sitting through the call again. Although actually, yeah, here in this article I just re-read while writing this post she denies telling Crowley they were black and repeats she didn't see what they looked like.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_harvard_scholar_caller

@UncleBob, yeah the audio has been released.
 
she didnt see them while on the phone, but she stuck around long enough for crowley to arrive, so she could have gotten a better look while waiting.
 
That's what I thought but no.


Attorney Wendy Murphy, who represents Whalen, also categorically rejected part of the police report that said Whalen talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene.
"Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene," Murphy told CNN by phone. "And she never said to any police officer or to anybody 'two black men.' She never used the word 'black.' Period."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/
 
I saw this while browsing mippin on my cell phone today

"As always, whitey now sits in judgment of me, preparing to cast my fate. It is your decision either to let me blow with the wind as a nonentity or to encourage the development of self. Allow me to prove myself."
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/07/obama-pal-henry-gates-as-always-whitey.html
The site that this is from a website I haven't heard of before, so you might want to take it with a grain of salt, but wow.
GATES: Probably. I didn't know until -- in 1959 we were watching Mike Wallace's documentary called "The Hate that Hate Produced." It was about the Nation of Islam and I couldn't believe -- I mean, Malcolm X was talking about the white man was the devil and standing up in white people's faces and telling them off. It was great. I mean, it's what black people did behind closed doors, but they would never do it in -- I mean, they were too vulnerable to do it, say, where they worked, at the paper mill or downtown, as we would call it. And here was a guy who had the nerve to do that, and I think if I had been a character in a cartoon, my eyes would have gone Doing! -- like this. I couldn't believe it. As I sat cowering in a corner of our living room, I glanced over at Mama and her face was radiant. I mean, this smile -- beatific smile started to transform her face. And she said quite quietly, "Amen." And then she said, "All right now," and she sat up and she said, "Yes."
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/07/dr-gates-on-whitey-malcolm-x-was.html

That's pretty hypocritical of Gates to say.
 
LOL @ gateway pundit

http://mediamatters.org/blog/200907200036

@fullmetal, even if Gates did say that how is it hypocritical? He said it was great to see someone tell white people off?? I bet it fucking was. If someone treated me the way black people were treated 40 years ago I would think it was great to see the perpetrators told off too.

The mans race was beaten, excluded, hung, enslaved, abused and spit upon and finally someone stood up to it and he isn't allowed to take joy in that?


So, what do all the racist cop defenders, like camoor, have to say now that it has been confirmed that Crowley lied?
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']We are now assured that one person is a liar, and it is not Gates.

Sorry if that means you finally have to admit racism happened.[/QUOTE]

You're unbelievable. You define a man based on a an alleged police report mistake concerning a minor detail that really has no bearing on anything.
 
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6119135&postcount=220

I didn't say it was Crowley. There are more than 2 people involved here.

You have a police report and an attorney telling two inconsistent stories. One of them, at the least, is necessarily wholly untrue - and not in the "oops" kind of way. In the "I'm not telling you the truth and I know it" kind of way.

Act like a grown up, let's discuss the issue, and stop singling out my posts because you want to disagree with me. Have some fucking integrity.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6119135&postcount=220

I didn't say it was Crowley. There are more than 2 people involved here.

You have a police report and an attorney telling two inconsistent stories. One of them, at the least, is necessarily wholly untrue - and not in the "oops" kind of way. In the "I'm not telling you the truth and I know it" kind of way.

Act like a grown up, let's discuss the issue, and stop singling out my posts because you want to disagree with me. Have some fucking integrity.[/QUOTE]

I was only talking about Crowley, and his response as compared to any other police response to a reported break-in.

You want to crucify a woman's reputation because she reported what she thought was a break-in, I think it's disgusting. It's why the unwritten 11th commandment in America is "don't get involved", because if the lawyers don't get you the media will.

And the only player who started this whole thing by refusing to cooperate with police requests and generally acting like an ass is the only guy you want to defend.
 
Let me get this straight - you're sitting in the spotlight of proof, between the caller's attorney's statement and what is written in the police statement, that one of them is necessarily lying - and you continue to assault Gates, defend the status quo, covers your eyes and ears to racism, and provide support for two people, one of whom is a willful liar, because...well, I don't get your rationale.

I'm done with you until you such time as you become an adult. To maintain no change in your perspective despite all the facts and evidence, coupled with your arguments the past few days repeatedly demonstrating that you have no knowledge of the course of events or the nuances of the law whatsoever (and how they played out in this instance), I'm done with you. If you're too lazy to read and think on your own, then I've better things to do in my day than support a petulant child of an ideologue such as yourself.
 
[quote name='mykevermin'] covers your eyes and ears to racism, and provide support for two people, one of whom is a willful liar, because...well, I don't get your rationale.[/QUOTE]
You still have no proof that Crowley would act any differently to a white person, provide that proof and we will agree that he is racist. Continue to act like a child and call other people blind and imply the are stupid then you're then one that appears to be prejudice.
 
We'll find out when we discover whether he or the woman was lying, won't we?

Race being mentioned in the police report but denied by the woman means either the woman was behaving in a racist manner and lies about it, or that Crowley is indeed acting in a racist manner.

Disregarding my many posts earlier that you either can't comprehend or did not read (I would guess a combination of the two) that point out that Crowley doesn't have to be a conscious, willing, "fuck that black dude" racist for this situation to be racist. I didn't see you have any response to that. You're cherry picking and bringing up points we've defeated long ago. You're quite boring, really.
 
Those 911 calls back up Whalen's story 99.9999% She states in them one drove off and one is in the house. That was her last chance to see them. At best she could have only gotten a look at Gates through his window after the calls. That's only one black man.

She repeatedly says she didn't see anyones skin color. Maybe one was hispanic. Maybe. Meaning that when Gates heard about a break-in with two burglars the first place his mind went was "two black men" according to his report.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip
 
[quote name='HowStern']Those 911 calls back up Whalen's story 99.9999% She states in them one drove off and one is in the house. That was her last chance to see them. At best she could have only gotten a look at Gates through his window after the calls. That's only one black man.

She repeatedly says she didn't see anyones skin color. Maybe one was hispanic. Maybe. Meaning that when Gates heard about a break-in with two burglars the first place his mind went was "two black men" according to his report.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip [/QUOTE]

Freud again! There sure is alot of psychoanalysis going on, maybe in the next post we could try delving into Crowley's past lives to see why he was karmically destined to have a confrontation with Gates.

I see the PC thought police are hard at work, amazing you can know what is occuring in the subconscious of a police officer based on an alleged mistake about his timeline of learning about the appearance of the suspects. We have gone beyond far-fetched, you and Myke are truly in the land of loony consipiracy theories and crackpot pop psychology now.

Maybe noone was acting in a racist manner, are we now not supposed to identify suspects based on physical characteristics? I mean, if the one-armed man is breaking the lock on the door should we neglect to mention that for fear of insulting the physically disabled lobby?
 
[quote name='camoor']Freud again! There sure is alot of psychoanalysis going on, maybe in the next post we could try delving into Crowley's past lives to see why he was karmically destined to have a confrontation with Gates.

I see the PC thought police are hard at work, amazing you can know what is occuring in the subconscious of a police officer based on an alleged mistake about his timeline of learning about the appearance of the suspects. We have gone beyond far-fetched, you and Myke are truly in the land of loony consipiracy theories and crackpot pop psychology now.

Maybe noone was acting in a racist manner, are we now not supposed to identify suspects based on physical characteristics? I mean, if the one-armed man is breaking the lock on the door should we neglect to mention that for fear of insulting the physically disabled lobby?[/QUOTE]


You completely fail to understand. It's not the use of the word "black" as a description that's offensive.

It's the fact that the caller never used it. Confirmed she couldn't see what they looked like. Yet when Crowley heard about 2 burglars his first thought was "2 black men."

That's the offensice part. His assumption the burglars were black. Not the use of the word black.
 
Maybe it was the dispatcher that said they were black!

That's not unreasonable. It is like that telephone game you play in grade school.

I also thought racism applied to something with intent and more malevolent - otherwise it is considered a prejudice. Similar to being wary of guys with giant beards covered in tatoos or assuming that all cute blond girls are nice.
 
No the dispatcher didn't say it....The police report states that Crowley was told it by the witness. Which 1)It's abundantly clear she didn't see the 2 men clearly based on the 911 calls. 2)She plain right out says she never even talked to crowley.



Racism is prejudice based on race.

Doesn't have to be malevolent or even intentionally hateful.
 
[quote name='HowStern']You completely fail to understand. It's not the use of the word "black" as a description that's offensive.

It's the fact that the caller never used it. Confirmed she couldn't see what they looked like. Yet when Crowley heard about 2 burglars his first thought was "2 black men."

That's the offensice part. His assumption the burglars were black. Not the use of the word black.[/QUOTE]

How do you know what the guy was thinking?
 
omfg..Please read the links if you are going to join in the discussion..

I know what he was thinking BECAUSE HE WROTE IT IN THE POLICE REPORT.

Seriously. Read up about the incident before posting.

edit: sorry to be so snappy :p
 
[quote name='HowStern']
It's the fact that the caller never used it. Confirmed she couldn't see what they looked like. Yet when Crowley heard about 2 burglars his first thought was "2 black men."

[/QUOTE]

thats unfair. the police report is written after the fact. its not like he was jotting this down on his way to the scene and just assumed they were black. after the incident he knew the men were black and could have just slipped up on the police report. its likely a very minor mistake that youre trying to twist into unequivocal proof that crowley has disdain for black men.
 
Except the police report said he spoke with the caller before entering the home - her attorney's claim is that none of this ever happened, not that it did happen but race wasn't mentioned.

There is therefore somebody lying - they met and talked or they didn't. And it happens to be the same spot where race is brought up. This is a far more serious violation than misremembering something innocently, which witnesses do all the time. This is either Crowley saying something happened that did not, or the witness lying about something she did say and do.

Alternately, here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robin-wells/hard-truths-and-the-teach_b_245856.html

An op-ed that I think many of you will find more agreeable than I. Too much fence-sitting for my tastes.
 
the fact that the witness has an attorney involved makes me very skeptical of anything she says. shes a 911 caller, she shouldnt need a lawyer. im sure shes getting far more attention then she ever thought she would with this, but still, she needs a lawyer for what? to talk to the press? that seems a bit excessive (and unecessary).
 
i won't disagree with that.

EDIT: I will say, however, that she's partially backed up by the audio of her call. What's incongruous right now rests b/w her and the officer - whether or not they talked prior to Crowley going to the house.
 
Isn't it a felony to make a false claim to the police? Maybe she needs it for that in case they decide to press charges. Skeptical at this stage? Most likely.

I don't think the question of this case is who's lying, but how many and how badly.
 
Yeah I imagine if a police report said I stated something I didn't, with a case that got the attention of the president, I would probably retain a lawyer too.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Isn't it a felony to make a false claim to the police? Maybe she needs it for that in case they decide to press charges. Skeptical at this stage? Most likely.

[/QUOTE]

ok, that makes sense, but they havent leveled any charges, and i havent heard from any source that they are even thinking about charging her.

i wonder if this would still be in the news if obama hadnt opened his mouth about the incident...
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
Disregarding my many posts earlier that you either can't comprehend or did not read (I would guess a combination of the two) that point out that Crowley doesn't have to be a conscious, willing, "fuck that black dude" racist for this situation to be racist. I didn't see you have any response to that. You're cherry picking and bringing up points we've defeated long ago. You're quite boring, really.[/QUOTE]
That's nice, whether he acted he with ill intent or not you still have to show the he would have treated a white person better in a similar situation.
 
Yeah, it's really hard to prove any racism or racial profiling here. It could be there in some form (and probably likely is) but it's not overt and could never be proven one way or the other so the race angle of this story really needs to go away IMO. At best you could say the neighbor wouldn't have called the cops if it was a white man and his white driver (despite saying she never mentioned race), or maybe the cop wouldn't have arrested a white person for mouthing off to him like that.

But it's really just a bad situation where Gates over reacted and mouthed off to the cop and started playing the race card right away (which a white person couldn't have done), and the cop over reacted by arresting him for disorderly conduct.

Though I'd be interested in hearing the tapes if the department does release them to hear what Gates said and hear how the officer tried to defuse the situation (if he did) before arresting him. That would be much more telling than all this speculation.

But without having the whole facts, the main thing that bothers me is Gates reaction and apparently playing the race card right away. If I was trying to force open my door with a friend/driver as I forgot my key or it didn't work or whatever, I'd be happy my neighbor cared enough to call it in and happy the cops showed up quickly for once personally as it would make me feel safer in my neighborhood. Especially where I lived in Maryland, though someone did get robbed and pistol whipped in my new condo complex in Atlanta last week as well.
 
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