Supreme Court rules against racial discrimination in suprisingly close vote

[quote name='UncleBob']Speaking of strawman, I like this idea that white males grow up with "nothing but privilege"... If there was ever an ignorant statement on the internet...[/QUOTE]

So, you're saying historically white males have had it harder than hispanics, blacks, and indians in the U.S.? ...If there was ever an ignorant statement on the internet...

;)
 
Not saying that at all. However, a "white male" does not grow up with "nothing but privilege" simply because one is a white male, as your above statement very much conveys.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Not saying that at all. However, a "white male" does not grow up with "nothing but privilege" simply because one is a white male, as your above statement very much conveys.[/QUOTE]

In the context of this discussion, yes, they absolutely do. White men and politics is PB&J. Hamburger & cheese, etc.

At the very basic level of it white males have never been not allowed to vote like women and other races. Simply because they were white males.

Douglas Wilder was elected in 1989.

Let that sink in. It only took, oh...200 years for the country to see a black governor.

In the realm of politics, the justice system, and government the white male has grown up with nothing but privilege.

I'm guessing you took my statement out of context (there's a lot of that in this thread) and assumed I was talking about white people everywhere with no relation to politics, despite the fact that that would have nothing to do with this conversation.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Because your question is based on taking an ostentatious offense to something we all know is true.

It is a complete given that someone who has grown up at a disadvantage and as a minority will have experiences that will help them judge a situation, "more often than not", better than someone who has grown up with nothing but privilege(see: white male.)

Everything else you said is a strawman. You've completely skewed everything the woman said.[/QUOTE]

You (and myke) are obfuscating. I asked a simple question: do you agree with what Sotomayor said? It's easy enough to answer; hell, even she said at the hearings it was a "rhetorical flourish that fell flat," thus backing away from the statement. Do you agree with her that what she said is bullshit? And what offense did I take, other than to object to a statement saying that a judge of one ethnicity is superior to a judge of another, which is a ridiculous (and extreme) statement? If what I said is such a "skewed" version of what she said, perhaps you can find more of the quote that proves this; I quoted the entire paragraph and I don't see how I "skewed" anything.
 
OMFG...Not only did I answer your question but I explained why it's a given right in the post you quoted.
 
[quote name='HowStern']In the context of this discussion, yes, they absolutely do. White men and politics is PB&J. Hamburger & cheese, etc.

At the very basic level of it white males have never been not allowed to vote like women and other races. Simply because they were white males.
[/QUOTE]
That's nice but that was then this is now, no one says hey 200 years ago you could vote but this other guy couldn't, so Mr.I'could'vote'200'years'ago gets the job/scholarship/promotion/ect...
It's more like I know your father/your family gave us a big donation/you are attractive here is a job/promotion/acceptance to an ivy league school.
 
[quote name='HowStern']I'm guessing you took my statement out of context (there's a lot of that in this thread) and assumed I was talking about white people everywhere with no relation to politics, despite the fact that that would have nothing to do with this conversation.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='HowStern']It is a complete given that someone who has grown up at a disadvantage and as a minority will have experiences that will help them judge a situation, "more often than not", better than someone who has grown up with nothing but privilege(see: white male.)[/quote]

See, I'm not getting politics out of this. I'm not getting anything to do with elections or voting. I'm reading white men can't judge well because they're privileged.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']See, I'm not getting politics out of this. I'm not getting anything to do with elections or voting. I'm reading white men can't judge well because they're privileged.[/QUOTE]

Don't worry. You've made it abundantly clear that you hear what you want to hear rather than what is actually being said/discussed.
 
Yes. You're absolutely right. I want to hear people say "white men can't judge well because they're privileged.".

You know what it is? I just can't read your posts well. It's because I'm a white male. I grew up with all this privilege and now, who needs readin'?
 
White privilege is not something you always experience. It can be what you don't experience as well.

You won't ever experience this: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/books/blog/2009/07/henry_louis_gates_arrested_cha.html

Henry Louis fucking Gates. You can't find a more prominent living black scholar in the United States. Not by a long shot. Maybe Elijah Anderson, but I'm straying from the point.

Now, when you read the synopsis of the Gates' arrest, and you come up with excuses and rationalizations that explain why it makes sense that he was arrested, you'll discover another aspect of white privilege: the ability to quickly, efficiently, and sufficiently explain away anthing that looks like it might be that big bad "RACISM" demon you so frequently seek to exorcize. When you read about differential treatment patterns of people, with race the only thing that changes, and TIME AND TIME AGAIN in our era you see that blacks are treated worse, receive worse health care (for the same insurance), are denied access to housing, to rental property, to jobs, to promotions...and you have an explanation and excuse that tries to deny the inherent racism of it all...that, my friends, is white privilege.

Keep your strawmen at bay; I've read enough "anytime you criticize a black person, it's racism" bullshit for five lifetimes. You don't need to respond. Think about it. Sit and let the idea fester for a bit. Ask yourself this: what was the last thing I read, the last thing I saw, the last thing I heard about that I **KNEW** was racism in action. Think about that. How far back do you have to go? How many excuses have you made for reinforcing inequality in our society?

None of us are perfect, ever. But being willingly compliant with allowing racial inequality to proceed, and trying to push the absurd "color-blind society" notion that you all do, is damnable.

Speaking of Gates, I was sitting in the Apple Store yesterday (fucking MacBook Pro is a lemon, man, I swear) - and an older man was throwing a fit of hellfire and brimstone. HE was important. HE was to be taken care of. HE was the customer, and the customer was always RIGHT!

What did he want? He lost one of the plug adapters for his laptop power cable (Macs come with two: a tiny two prong "duck head" and a longer extension cord with a ground on it). He lost the duck head. LOST. HIMSELF. And here he was, in the store, insisting that Apple replace his unit. HE WAS IMPORTANT! (He actually used the "do you know who I am?" line FFS). He was cordoned off from the genius bar (I hate typing that) by four Apple employees, but nevertheless refused to leave, and refused to be quieted. We shall not be overcome, I suppose one might say.

Eventually someone took an old duck head from an old adapter in the back and gave it to him. So he got to act like a child (despite being hifalutin' "DOCTOR SO AND SO") - in front of his own son, teaching his boy the life lesson that, if you make mistakes, and throw enough of a fit, other people will compensate you for your inability to take responsibility for yourself.

Do you think a black man would have received this treatment?

White privilege. A white professor loses his own shit because he's too busy blowing himself intellectually, and gets what he wants by throwing a temper tantrum. Henry Louis Gates gets arrested for going into his own house.
 
Trust me. I live in frickin' "White County, Illinois". There's racism. I know it. I've experienced it (not personally, but through a former co-worker who was described to me by two different customers as "that tall un-american kid" and "that guy you can only see in the dark when he's smiling"... I walked away from the first customer and wanted to punch the second). I'm not going to deny that racism exists in today's world.

As for the customer you described - as I've mentioned before - I work retail. I've dealt with that exact same customer. In white, black, red, brown, male and female varieties. Pretty much every single time, management gives into them and gives them whatever it is they want. Sometimes, it's just easier to give in - it has nothing to do with the color of the customer's skin.

As per your story in regards to HLG - I honestly cannot comment. I do not know the arresting officer and I'm not about to condemn someone as a racist based on the individual news story you provided. I can't say I'm a fan of the "papers, please" attitude apparently shown by the officer in this case though...
 
Bob, see, again you misunderstand the point.

We aren't talking about racism in the strict sense. You missed the merit of Myke's post.
It's about an unrecognized privilege.

The white professor having the temper tantrum never stopped for a second to think "Oh, I could get in trouble for this." And he was, in fact, rewarded in the end despite his loss being his own fault.

Where as a black person has to stop and think about throwing a fit even if it has to do with their OWN PERSONAL HOME DOOR BEING JAMMED SHUT because they could end up going to jail like Gates, a world renowned scholar!

They don't have the privilege. These experiences give them a different view of the world.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']White privilege. A white professor loses his own shit because he's too busy blowing himself intellectually, and gets what he wants by throwing a temper tantrum. Henry Louis Gates gets arrested for going into his own house.[/QUOTE]

As UncleBob points out, completely different cases.

Perhaps a better case to compare it to would be this:

Debra Bolton had a glass of red wine with dinner. That's what she told the police officer who pulled her over. That's what the Intoxilyzer 5000 breath test indicated -- .03, comfortably below the legal limit.
She had been pulled over in Georgetown about 12:30 a.m. for driving without headlights. She apologized and explained that the parking attendant must have turned off her vehicle's automatic-light feature.
Drivers in the District can be arrested for blood alcohol levels as low as .01, although the legal threshold for intoxication is .08. Blood alcohol levels vary with food intake, metabolism and other factors and drop by roughly .017 per hour as the liver breaks down alcohol.

Bolton thought she might get a ticket. Instead, she was handcuffed, searched, arrested, put in a jail cell until 4:30 a.m. and charged with driving under the influence of alcohol.
Bolton, 45, an energy lawyer and single mother of two who lives in Alexandria, had just run into a little-known piece of D.C. law: In the District, a driver can be arrested with as little as .01 blood-alcohol content.
Click to expand...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/11/AR2005101101968.html

Pic provided. Turns out she also mouthed off to a cop (all that "I'm a lawyer" "You can't do this" stuff). Just watch an episode of Cops and you'll see that cops do not like it when you give them attitude. I remember in HS one dumbass went up to a cop and called him a pig - slam to the ground, cuffs on the back, the whole nine. Personally I think the kid had it coming.

Now - undoubtedly is it unfortunate that this guy's house was visited when if he had looked different he might not have. Things aren't perfect out there, I wouldn't be the first to point that out. Should police investigate when it looks like someone is using brute force to open a door instead of, say, a key? I'd like to think so. Should police be less quick to handcuff or taser uncooperative citizens. Absolutely. Should you ever mouth off to a cop? Look at the stories and decide for yourself.
 
LOL..Drunken driving with your headlights off...Trying to get into your house..Hmmm, I see the similarity! Oh, wait..No, I don't.
 
Geez.

She had one glass of wine. .03 alcohol level.

Look up any documentation ever written on driving - it's considered safe for healthy individuals to consume one glass, bottle or shot of alcohol before driving. And she happened to foget her lights - I see it all the time, a human mistake maybe worth a ticket at worst.

She was put in jail because she was mouthing off - she admitted that she was uncooperative and the police officer confirmed it.

It's a case of "respect mah autoritah" more then anything else.
 
Don't the rest of you guys get it? If you're not myke, then you're hopelessly racist. Period. Of course, it's okay for him to use ethnic slurs:

[quote name='mykevermin']I missed last night's show because my frickin' laptop died (though with a wonderful resolution to it).

Good to see Jimmie didn't get booted.

I take it Joseph is the loudmouthed, confrontational wop?[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='HowStern']OMFG...Not only did I answer your question but I explained why it's a given right in the post you quoted.[/QUOTE]

So you are admitting you are a racist now?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Henry Louis Gates gets arrested for going into his own house.[/QUOTE]

Henry Louis Gates gets arrested for telling an officer “this is what happens to a black man in America” and “you don’t know who you’re messing with”, and then refusing to show them an ID. If an officer gets a report of a possible break-in, shows up to a house with the front door forced open and someone inside the home wtf do you expect them to do? Assume the person in the home (which a break-in reportedly happened at) was the owner and not ask him any questions? The guy was completely uncooperative, and wouldn't even show them his ID. He was a tool, and they arrested him. It's not racism, it's not as Obama puts it that the officers were acting "stupidly", it's officers doing their job.
 
^ He was charged with disorderly conduct, not B&E. So your claim that he did not furnish proof that he was in his own home holds no water whatsoever.
 
This is not a place that is ready to honestly debate white privilege. That's what you get for trying, myke.
[quote name='Don Chubo']Don't the rest of you guys get it? If you're not myke, then you're hopelessly racist. Period. Of course, it's okay for him to use ethnic slurs:[/QUOTE]
*pulls the string* The airplane goes WHOOOOOOOOOSH.
[quote name='mykevermin']^ He was charged with disorderly conduct, not B&E. So your claim that he did not furnish proof that he was in his own home holds no water whatsoever.[/QUOTE]
I have this guilty pleasure. I love hearing when people say "do you know who I am?" to police and end up in jail. But shit guys, if you can't tell a cop to piss off in your own home, what the hell? Is the guy a douche? He sure seems to be. But if you can't be a douche in your own home, something's not right. If you're not arresting him (they weren't initially) and he's not suspected (it seems obvious the cop realized he was the home owner) and he tells you to piss off and get out of his home, that's what you do. The cop was offended the guy was all in his shit. That's not a crime.
 
Ya, you're right that was just in a few articles I read. I'll change my post to make it fit the great myke's standards.

"Sgt. Crowley asked for the gentleman's information which he stated 'NO I WILL NOT'. The gentleman was shouting out to the Sgt. that the Sgt. was a racist and yelled that 'THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO BLACK MEN IN AMERICA!'. As the Sgt. was trying to calm the gentleman, the gentleman shouted "You don't know who your (and yes this was their spelling error in the police report, not mine) messing with!"

There ya go. He began the night by refusing to show ID. He then proceeded to escalate the situation to an unreasonable level. He continued to make the situation worse by claiming the officers were "racist" and refused to listen to why they were there.

Quit arguing semantics, it gets annoying.
 
So if he refused to show his ID, it should have been a very simple cuff and stuff arrest, no? Charge him with B&E, disorderly, and resisting. At the least.

ESPECIALLY if you're pissing the cops off. Because we support the police upgrading and downgrading charges based upon being "pissed off," as opposed to violations of the law.
 
Or, you can look at it as though the officer was trying to show him some respect and not automatically getting out the cuffs. I'd prefer to assume he was trying to not be a dick, but hey, neither of us were there. All we can do is read the police report stating Gates was in the wrong.
 
So we can always believe the police report and only the police report.

Gotcha.

Let's neglect the long and storied history of data that show racial discrimination happening at virtually every stage of policing in America. It happens all the time and hasn't gone away, and will continue to happen - it just didn't happen here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/nyregion/22raids.html

I mean, really now. It never happens. The only racism in the United States right now is that Affirmative Action kept you from getting a job, you didn't get a scholarship because you were white, and there's no such thing as WHITE entertainment television, amirite?
 
...

Where did I ever say there isn't any racism left in the United States? Do you always need to go to such an extreme? You finally got me. We aren't a utopian society. Good job, you sure showed me the light. Here I was thinking everything in the Unites States was perfect and now I know I was wrong.
 
Well, if your story is "All we can do is read the police report stating Gates was in the wrong," then you are fucking wrong. You're arguing that we should listen to one side of the story - a fool's errand in ANY case - and end our search for facts there.

This, despite this institution (on the whole, not just in Cambridge) having a history of racist and discriminatory treatment, the continuance of which is constantly proven with research, and never has been shown to not exist. Hundreds of years of the same pattern of treatment across city and country, with not an iota of contrary data, and you still act like it doesn't happen enough to worry about, or that this incident is exempt from consideration because a guy being arrested in his own house was pissed off and loud.

Find me a single bit of contrary data or study. Not anecdote, but research, that shows no discriminatory treatment by police.

Good thing G. Gordon Liddy wasn't a black man, otherwise that cop would be dead.
 
The cops were responding to a fucking break in. You act as though they were just walking down the street, decided they wanted to arrest a black guy, went up to his house and started trouble for no reason. Imagine if the guys house was actually being robbed and the officer just said "Ok, you refused to show me identification but I believe you when you tell me this is your house. I'll just ignore the fact that someone broke into the house through the front door and I'll disregard the call from your neighbor stating someone was trying to break in through your front door." Look at the situation for what it is, one situation. I don't give a crap about anything else in your post. I'm looking at this situation as anything more then one individual situation. You keep saying look at it as "the whole". So why don't you try it out? Has the officer ever had issues regarding mistreatment of race in his record? No. I mean look at the guy. He's even taught classes on diversity for crying out loud.

And honestly, I don't care enough about you or your opinion to research any of the other things you posted about.
 
Horse_with_blinders_small%5B1%5D-719908.jpg
 
@troy, Wow..You just don't get it. The man had the right to mouth off to the police.

They came onto his property and accused him of breaking into his own house.

The cops should have apologized and left quickly. Not taking Gates with them. They shouldn't have been on his private property in the first place.

Also, the neighbor is quoted as saying "Two black men." So, you still think race has nothing to do with it?
 
[quote name='HowStern']@troy, Wow..You just don't get it. The man had the right to mouth off to the police.

They came onto his property and accused him of breaking into his own house.

The cops should have apologized and left quickly. Not taking Gates with them. They shouldn't have been on his private property in the first place.

Also, the neighbor is quoted as saying "Two black men." So, you still think race has nothing to do with it?[/QUOTE]
I never said he didn't have a right to mouth of to a cop. Just try to show some sort of respect, ya know? All the cop was doing was responding to a burglary call, sorry he was doing his job.

The cop would have left quickly if Gates would have just pulled out his ID, stated that it was his residence, and then asked him to leave. There was no reason for him to be upset with the officer responding to a call.

Here, I'll go through the night step by step for you. Gates just returned from China. Gates and his driver got to his house, and he couldn't get in the front door. They decided to break in. A neighbor saw it and called the police. I'm assuming they asked her to describe the scene and the people breaking in (OMG did she really use someone's skin color to describe them? I've never seen that before wataracist). The officer then shows up assuming someone is breaking in, wants to see ID, Gates gets mad starts to get unruly, more cops show up, he continues to be upset, gets arrested and here we are. Something as simple as here is my ID, this is my place of residence, everything is fine turns into a racist witch-hunt.
 
Easy to say when you're white and never had to deal with it. I can't imagine the fury going through Gates' head and I won't sit here on an internet forum and pretend I can.

"Oh, here, sir! Here's my ID! Should I bend over for you too?"
 
[quote name='HowStern']Easy to say when you're white and never had to deal with it. I can't imagine the fury going through Gates' head and I won't sit here on an internet forum and pretend I can.

"Oh, here, sir! Here's my ID! Should I bend over for you too?"[/QUOTE]

So I'm assuming the next time I get pulled over for speeding I should go into rage mode when an officer asks for my license AND registration? It doesn't matter if you're black/brown/white, at some point in your life I'm assuming you've had someone ask to see your ID. It's not a big deal.

And myke, read the police report. I didn't deviate very far from it. The only thing I did was assume the 911 operator asked the neighbor to provide them with some sort of way to ID the suspected robbers. Because that's what they've done when I called.
 
^ "The cop would have left quickly if Gates would have just pulled out his ID, stated that it was his residence, and then asked him to leave. There was no reason for him to be upset with the officer responding to a call."

Was that in the report?
 
@ Stern

Because the cop is automatically going to assume someone breaking into a home is the owner. That's some impressive logic you have there. You would make a great cop.

@ Myke

No, that's called common sense. There is a disturbance, an officer responds, concludes that there is nothing wrong with the situation and leaves. That's how it works in the real world.
 
Maybe it's because I'm white or maybe I know not to disrespect John Law ...

I remember when the cops showed up to my house in Elizabethtown about a year after I moved to Indiana.

I was replacing the smoke detector and fixing the fence to make the house rentable.

After I completed repairs and was waiting for my wife to pick me up to return to Indiana, I laid down on the porch and closed my eyes.

I heard some cars pull up. Hmm. Two police cruisers and two cops walking up my driveway. Yeah, they wanted to talk to me.

I unlocked the door to show them I had a front door key. They demanded I stay on the porch.

I informed them I owned the house. They asked for ID. I showed them my Indiana drivers' license. They asked how I got there since no car was in the driveway. I told them the wife was in Bardstown with the kids visiting her mom.

They asked why my neighbors had reported suspicious activity. I told them I had moved out a year ago and the house had been vacant since then. Pointing to the rental sign in the front yard, I told them I had to get renters until the house market turns around.

One of the cops looked through the open door and asked me if anything was in there. I shrugged and told them, "Some wire, a broken smoke detector and a few tools to fix the panels on my privacy fence."

For a few minutes, they did their "run your ID to see if you freak out" routine. Since I didn't scream at them and there was no proof I wasn't on my property, they walked away without so much as a "Sorry to bother you."
 
[quote name='HowStern']Yeah because speeding and trying to get into your OWN house are totally the same.[/QUOTE]

Was Myke saying that he was the horse with blinders on, or it was he saying it was you. Because every time it's pointed out that abusive cop behavior has been directed at everyone who mouths off, up go the blinders, and out comes the spin that in every case except Gates the draconian punishment for minor offences was completely justified.

I guess you'll wait to see pics of the employee vicitim before deciding whether the cop who pulled his gun out at McDonalds for not getting served fast enough was justified or not.
 
@Troy

Except he was already in the house when the cops got there. He wasn't "caught breaking in." And the fact that he wasn't stuffing things into bags and making a quick escape should have been an obvious sign he wasn't committing a robbery, no? If you don't think so, well...That's some impressive logic you've got there.

Also, it's abundatly clear you haven't read the police report. Because he did show his ID.


http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridg...-Police-Department-still-has-a-lot-to-explain

http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridg...-Henry-Louis-Gates-arrest-report?popular=true
 
I am going to have to agree with troy here. If ANYONE gets unruly with a cop you will get arrested. This is not uncommon. I am not really seeing the issue.

This event may have been initiated because of some preconceived notions about the current racial issues (very possible) but it no way is it unreasonable for a cop to arrest someone for being unruly. No matter who you are you do not want to raise your voice at a cop. That will never end well.

Maybe if you are black and the cop hates blacks you will get hit with the baton before being cuffed but you will still get arrested.
 
Just remember, contrary to evidence that racial profiling and race-based discrimination against minorities exist and persist, that doesn't mean police are racist.

Of course. What do data matter when it comes to opinions?
 
[quote name='ToadallyAwesome']I am going to have to agree with troy here. If ANYONE gets unruly with a cop you will get arrested. This is not uncommon. I am not really seeing the issue.

This event may have been initiated because of some preconceived notions about the current racial issues (very possible) but it no way is it unreasonable for a cop to arrest someone for being unruly. No matter who you are you do not want to raise your voice at a cop. That will never end well.

Maybe if you are black and the cop hates blacks you will get hit with the baton before being cuffed but you will still get arrested.[/QUOTE]

Troy has no clue what he is talking about. His whole argument was based on the fact that Gates provided no ID but I have provided the links to the police report where the officer says himself that Gates gave him ID.

Why didn't the cop leave immediately after being given ID?
 
If you are reading the same report that I am you will clearly see that he initially refused to show him ID. After showing him his harvard ID, the officer radioed the harvard campus police and PREPARED TO LEAVE. Gates then FOLLOWED HIM OUT THE DOOR continuing to yell at him. Read the whole fucking thing next time.

He wasn't arrested until after this. If anything I commend this officer for the initial patience he had with Mr. Gates.
 
He has every right to yell at him on his own private property. The cop had no reason to be there.

I repeat. The police should not have been there afterGates produced identification.

Gates had every right to say whatever he pleased thanks to our first ammendment. The cop should have kept walking and took the verbal abuse BECAUSE HE SHOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN THERE.

The prosecution knew this. That's why they dropped the charges.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']If you are reading the same report that I am you will clearly see that he initially refused to show him ID.[/QUOTE]

If you knew this, why would you willfully sculpt your posts in the way you did, claiming that he refused to show ID?

Why would you knowingly lie to make a point? Is being right on the internet that important to you?

For all the reports you've read, you continue to modify your account of events to contend with the holes being poked through your tales.
 
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