The Auto Industry Bailout Thread

They are treated a lot better than here from what I hear, so efficiency stays up. Kinda like anyone working for Google I suppose.
 
This is the "action alert" letter that was talked about

From:
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM
To:
Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.

2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.


The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.





So, bail out wall street $700+ billion. Have a chance to screw over organized labor priceless.



 
Lots of Republicans were against the financial bailout as well.

I say have each of the "Big 3" come up with a detailed plan justifying the money and it will be used to turn around their businesses and keep them competitive (not simply forestalling the inevitable). Bail out the two with the better, more feasible plans and let the other one file bankruptcy. Nothing says that a bailout has to be an all or nothing affair.
 
I'm pretty sure that Niassan is not unionized, i used to know someone who worked for a plant here and i think he said they weren't.

I remember reading an article years ago about Japanese auto plant efficiency. The part i remember the most was about how workers in Japanese plants were trained to basically do any job in the plant, instead of just the one they're assigned to. This made it possible for the employees to be moved around in jobs and kept them from getting too bored doing the same thing for years. It also helped keep efficiency up and also made it possible for any employee to fill in for any other employee, since they were all trained to do any job.

The Japanese did this long before any American plant.
 
I guess Speedy's sig sums it all up:

bigthree.jpg
 
Saw this in WaPo today, been chewing on this line and am curious what others think.

Even if the Big Three deserve to die, they shouldn't die now. Economic theory notwithstanding, it would be insanity to throw hundreds of thousands of auto company employees, and maybe a few million others in the supply and sales chains, out of work -- leaving them and their families at the mercy of an economy that has no replacement jobs for them. Public funds would end up supporting these people anyway, except that we would have lost our domestic auto industry -- which, despite its many failings, is the only domestic auto industry we've got.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='speedracer']Saw this in WaPo today, been chewing on this line and am curious what others think.[/quote]

Yes, unfortunately taxpayer money is going to be wasted either way, but that doesn't mean the Big Three should be bailed out. What is the actual reason for wanting a domestic auto industry? Whatever it is, it doesn't justify theft on a grand scale.
 
The only legitimate economy is one based on manufacturing. Its the most effective way to create wealth (which is different from just making money).

A service based economy is fictional.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']The only legitimate economy is one based on manufacturing. Its the most effective way to create wealth (which is different from just making money).

A service based economy is fictional.[/quote]

Creating wealth is certainly different from just making money; you're preaching to the choir there. But then I never said nobody should manufacture anything.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']The only legitimate economy is one based on manufacturing. Its the most effective way to create wealth (which is different from just making money).

A service based economy is fictional.[/QUOTE]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/forbes_nabe_usmanufacturing_3-26-042.pdf

Check out the #6 chart. We've had dramatic increases in manufacturing output in this country, even while employment in manufacturing has fallen. This is because of automation and factories becoming much more productive. Are you referring to an economy based on manufacturing output or manufacturing employment?
 
I get the feeling that people who want the auto bailout are the same people who wanted the Wall Street bailout. It will only be after the fact that they'll say 'we didn't want THIS'. And the Government will try to say it's the best thing ever.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']I get the feeling that people who want the auto bailout are the same people who wanted the Wall Street bailout. It will only be after the fact that they'll say 'we didn't want THIS'. And the Government will try to say it's the best thing ever.[/QUOTE]
I think you're right in a lot of cases, but there are a lot of people who want the auto bailout and say, "Well we bailed out Wall Street, so why not people who actually make something?"

Of course both bailouts are stupid so that's not much of an argument.
 
But they're not bailing out the workers here, they're bailing out the corporation, who will in turn, take that money, and sit on it. Just like the companies did with the Wall Street bailout.

Another bad thing about the bailout is that NO ONE is talking about, or at least a cause for it happening, is the dollar slide. All this extra money printing isn't exactly good for it.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']But they're not bailing out the workers here, they're bailing out the corporation, who will in turn, take that money, and sit on it. Just like the companies did with the Wall Street bailout.

Another bad thing about the bailout is that NO ONE is talking about, or at least a cause for it happening, is the dollar slide. All this extra money printing isn't exactly good for it.[/QUOTE]
Preaching to the choir here. I'd be against the bailout even if they used it to make better cars.
 
The funny thing about that is the "better" cars they would make if the bailout happened and they did use the money for it is that by the time they came out all the other imports would have made their 2nd gen versions of those "better" cars. lol
 
[quote name='rickonker']Preaching to the choir here. I'd be against the bailout even if they used it to make better cars.[/QUOTE]

What about the fact that the 200-300 million people are going to draw $100s of billions more from the government and government programs such as food stamps and unemployment then the bail out would cost us in the first place.
 
The crazy thing is that my fiancee said her boss was talking about even with the bail out GM is talking about closing its factories down for 3-4 months. If they close down for that long it means shutting down factories like her that produce for them for 6 months probaly. So even with the bail out its looking like they are going to pull down millions of jobs anyways since many of those factories wont last half a year without bussiness and you can damn well bet all those bars/restaurants and food wagons wont.
 
The Government will just give them another bailout then. You should already know this, and it'll be bigger next time.

These companies need to get rid of those legacy costs. They're the biggest factor in them not being competitive anymore with their car pricing.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']The Government will just give them another bailout then. You should already know this, and it'll be bigger next time.

These companies need to get rid of those legacy costs. They're the biggest factor in them not being competitive anymore with their car pricing.[/QUOTE]

I am not talking about the car companies I am talking about the companies that produce for said car companies. My fiancees plant is extremely lean, hell they got in trouble recently with the company that owns them for not having ENOUGH employees in certain departments.
 
They should have made it interesting. They should have said only two of the big three will be bailed out and the two depends on who has the best plan for restructuring going forward.
 
Of course they got the loan, it was always painfully obvious they were going to. All this does is push off the real decision about the future of the US auto industry until March. IMO, this will end with a pre-packaged bankruptcy that will result in a Chrysler and GM merger because there is nothing better than taking one crappy company and merging it with an even crappier company.;)
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']They should have made it interesting. They should have said only two of the big three will be bailed out and the two depends on who has the best plan for restructuring going forward.[/QUOTE]


yeah that would have been an idea for sure.
 
Oh, and by the way guys, in Congress's ever-lasting love and care for the country during these hard times, they raised their pay by $4,700 a year. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']The crazy thing is that my fiancee said her boss was talking about even with the bail out GM is talking about closing its factories down for 3-4 months. If they close down for that long it means shutting down factories like her that produce for them for 6 months probaly. So even with the bail out its looking like they are going to pull down millions of jobs anyways since many of those factories wont last half a year without bussiness and you can damn well bet all those bars/restaurants and food wagons wont.[/quote]

Well, you do realize the magnitude of how bad they have fucked up. It was all over the news. I mean, the "bailout" would just be a drop in the bucket for them. They could still go under and were talking go under in say less than 6mo. kinda time period.
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']Well, you do realize the magnitude of how bad they have fucked up. It was all over the news. I mean, the "bailout" would just be a drop in the bucket for them. They could still go under and were talking go under in say less than 6mo. kinda time period.[/QUOTE]

Duh
 
What baffles me is how much they got in debt... I mean, it's on the same level of how the fuck does someone reach 400lbs. and their excuse is they are depressed. Someone would fucking notice wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy before 400... Or how the fuck does someone flip a car?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cul_t2mJL7w[/media]
 
This is just the first step to nationalizing, I'm afraid. Let's see what we nationalize next.

We have the right administration coming just for that task.
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']What baffles me is how much they got in debt... I mean, it's on the same level of how the fuck does someone reach 400lbs. and their excuse is they are depressed. Someone would fucking notice wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy before 400... Or how the fuck does someone flip a car?

[/QUOTE]

Umm....people have been warning of the decline of the US auto industry for decades and there have been dozens of attempts to turn things around. GM, Ford and Chyrsler have gone through dozens of "turnaround" plans, they just haven't worked because they have all failed to change the fundamental problems of the industry.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']This is just the first step to nationalizing, I'm afraid. Let's see what we nationalize next.

We have the right administration coming just for that task.[/quote]


You are fixating on the wrong problem. The fair weather socialism that took place prior to the current crisis is what got the U.S. to where it is.

Aside from hick values vs. iPod people values, there are no differences between Republicans and Democrats.

The only real difference between Obama and McCain is that Obama will whine about big corporations before taking it in the rear from them.

On topic: these companies suck at making cars, let them crash now instead of chaining the citizens of the United States to them beforehand.

I don't want to hear some evening news sob story about the factory workers. It sucks for them and I wish they didn't work for such horrible companies, but sometimes jobs end.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']
I don't want to hear some evening news sob story about the factory workers. It sucks for them and I wish they didn't work for such horrible companies, but sometimes jobs end.[/QUOTE]

It does suck for them, no doubt. But at the same time they choose to take an unskilled job where they joined a company and learned how to perform one task.

It just shows the importance of making yourself needed by having marketable skills--be it getting an education in a high demand field or learning a skilled trade that's in high demand.

If you do unskilled labor, or do one specific task in a factor etc. you run a high risk of getting fucked if the company goes under. You lose your job and you aren't competitive for other jobs as you have no marketable skills.
 
Again I keep hearing boo hoo automotive workers sorry you have to lose your job but we shouldnt have to put out money.....yet no one thinking about all the money we will lose if they do lose their jobs. $18 billion to keep them afloat isnt half as bad as what it will cost to give all those workers unemployment, medicare and food stamps.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Again I keep hearing boo hoo automotive workers sorry you have to lose your job but we shouldnt have to put out money.....yet no one thinking about all the money we will lose if they do lose their jobs. $18 billion to keep them afloat isnt half as bad as what it will cost to give all those workers unemployment, medicare and food stamps.[/quote]


You raise a good point, but they'll be spending all they get so it's not like the U.S. will totally lose the money.

Unemployment is kind of crazy now, a friend of mine got fired years ago and he keeps getting renewed even though he's a dependent.

Plus, we're already paying into the social programs, just as these workers have. So it's not the same type of expense.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']You are fixating on the wrong problem. The fair weather socialism that took place prior to the current crisis is what got the U.S. to where it is.

Aside from hick values vs. iPod people values, there are no differences between Republicans and Democrats.

The only real difference between Obama and McCain is that Obama will whine about big corporations before taking it in the rear from them.
[/QUOTE]

Oh I agree with you. I am certainly not saying McCain would have been better in this regard.

And I am on record as saying Bush is the most socialist president we have likely ever had (as far as increasing government power, at least since Wilson), now it's just a wait-and-see concerning Obama continuing the trend.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']You raise a good point, but they'll be spending all they get so it's not like the U.S. will totally lose the money.

Unemployment is kind of crazy now, a friend of mine got fired years ago and he keeps getting renewed even though he's a dependent.

Plus, we're already paying into the social programs, just as these workers have. So it's not the same type of expense.[/QUOTE]

Everything I have read has suggested that the cost of unemployment and other services will exceed $200 billion within a few months if the bail out fails. Its hardly close, and even if much of it gets spent on stuff like food most of it doesnt go back to the goverment or even the people but companies....and guess what many of these companies aint American anymore. That means this money largly will go to China.
 
Yeah now that I think about it, the government will just siphon the money from education and research. While they pay unemployed citizens and for a failed "war on terror" (or "enlightened" terrorism as I see it).

Yet people are still churning out babies while countless people are starving around the world. I would love to hear a religious person's take on the world at large.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/forbes_nabe_usmanufacturing_3-26-042.pdf

Check out the #6 chart. We've had dramatic increases in manufacturing output in this country, even while employment in manufacturing has fallen. This is because of automation and factories becoming much more productive. Are you referring to an economy based on manufacturing output or manufacturing employment?[/quote]
Not output. Employment and wages. Wages should scale somewhat with worker productivity, but they arent anymore. Productivity is way up but wages are not. Its part of the transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top that has been going on over the last 30 years in particular.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Everything I have read has suggested that the cost of unemployment and other services will exceed $200 billion within a few months if the bail out fails. Its hardly close, and even if much of it gets spent on stuff like food most of it doesnt go back to the goverment or even the people but companies....and guess what many of these companies aint American anymore. That means this money largly will go to China.[/QUOTE]

I think what many people are worried about is that even with a loan/bail out there still seems to be a solid chance at least one or two of the companies will still fail and where out the bail out funds and still stuck paying unemployment to a bunch of unskilled laborers.

I don't think the bailouts going to get them to stop making crappy cars that people will buy over Toyotas, Hondas, Mazdas, Subarus, etc. overnight.
 
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