The beauty of capitalism in pictures.

[quote name='RAMSTORIA']i didnt say it was ideal or easy. i said it was doable. and "shit happens" is not an argument for anything.
[/QUOTE]


Shit happens is a variable and understandable part of life...what do you think the whole concept of any insurance is?
 
edit button ;)

[quote name='gareman']A fantasy world equals universal health care and free and/or affordable college education?[/QUOTE]

youre simplifying what you said earlier. you werent just saying universal health care and affordable educations. you were painting a picture of health care for all, free education (i dont say affordable, because originally you make it seem like student loans are a death sentence), and happiness. the last point is the point i was saying will never happen. you were pointing out a situation where everyone can somehow do what they love (and still manage on a day to day basis) and thats just not a reality.

[quote name='gareman']Shit happens is a variable and understandable part of life...what do you think the whole concept of any insurance is?[/QUOTE]

i understand the concept of insurance. thats why we have insurance, because shit happens. but they way you portrayed it there shouldnt be a burden for shit. why else would you bring up universal health care. what im saying is, its one or the other, you cant say that shit is a burden and then use insurance as a solution. because thats how we have things now, either its a burden or its not. insurance is a privilege, a commodity, something you invest in, not a right, so its one or the other. we arent entitled to insurance.
 
I know people seem to hate idealists, but if no one ever imagined a better world we wouldn't make any progress at all. Quite frankly, we need the dreamers.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']What if that individual has a 40 hour a week job delivering newspapers and is a single parent of two kids? Should they be able to get by on his/her 40 hour work week?[/QUOTE]

No they shouldn't. They should be forced to work 2 part-time 35 hour/week jobs so they have enough cash to scrape together for ketchup soup but don't have any time to perform unprofitable activities like parenting their kids. The other advantage will be that they can't buy into a healthplan like fulltime employees. Their family health plan should be if they get sick to die quickly, and any profitability their employer enjoys as a result of their hard-work should go directly to his pocket. After all, he's the one who chose to grow up in a supportive environment, study hard, and earn a business school degree, their kids are the ones that chose to be born into abject poverty.
 
Are there no prisons?

On a more serious note, the world is not black and white as Bmulligan seems to think. I think the current system could benefit from some more social assistance and a less corporate. I think rewarding problem solvers is important, but rewarding past problem solvers to the detriment of the next generation is not going to help society progress.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']I know people seem to hate idealists, but if no one ever imagined a better world we wouldn't make any progress at all. Quite frankly, we need the dreamers.[/QUOTE]

Funny - I always get ragged on for being an idealist. :(
 
[quote name='gareman']And then conservatives among others will be right there telling that they shouldn't have taken out a loan or found a better job....


Taking out huge loans right out of high school then graduating college and having to take the first job that is available to you in order to take advantage of that degree and pay back those loans for the next 25 years. If you are lucky you will get a job with health insurance, then you can't quit out of fear for losing health insurance for your children or wife/husband. How is that freedom?

True freedom would be not having to worry about staying at a horrible job or one that has nothing to do with your passion/degree because health care is provided. Not having to take the first job offered and be able to have more time and less debt to get a job you love because you have no student loans to pay back.[/QUOTE]

The conservatives are right on this one. Freedom is not the same as financial comfort or independence. Freedom includes the freedom to fail (unless you are a large bank evidently, but that's another discussion).

[quote name='JolietJake']I know people seem to hate idealists, but if no one ever imagined a better world we wouldn't make any progress at all. Quite frankly, we need the dreamers.[/QUOTE]

100% correct. Way too many people want to continue things as they were just because things have always been that way.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Funny - I always get ragged on for being an idealist. :([/QUOTE]

I am in no way an idealist....I am actually quite pragmatic. I don't think that it is a head in the clouds attitude to think the most powerful nation in the world can afford universal health care for its citizens and nearly free if not completely free college education to those who make an honest effort at a higher education.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Funny - I always get ragged on for being an idealist. :([/QUOTE]

That isn't why you get ragged on.

Gare:

and nearly free if not completely free college education to those who make an honest effort at a higher education.
Click to expand...

Especially considering college used to be much cheaper with more aid and loan terms that were not usurious.
 
[quote name='lilboo']The only problem with paying people minimum wage is that.. you can't live off of this so called minimum wage. Here in NJ it's like $7.50 an hour :shock: My rent is $1075 a month.. how on earth would I be able to pay for that on $7-$8? I don't even understand how they even determine what a minimum wage even is.

Why do we want people making the extreme bare minimum? Wouldn't it be ideal to set a minimum wage so people are able to pay bills and buy food easier and still have some money left over..that can go into spending..that goes back into the economy... which helps the economy.. ETC.

When I worked at Wal-Mart when I was like 19..yeah sure $7.95 an hour was cool since I was living at home and that was it :lol:.. but now being a responsible adult and junk, I can't EVER imagine making like $8 an hour to live off of. :([/QUOTE]

I can relate to what you are saying completely, but the snobby side of me says, I busted my ass in college and am currently going back for my master's to make more money. The degrees and my work experience, I started working when I was 16 is the reason why I am doing pretty good these days. When I started working I made min. wage myself. And I never got any support, other than moral support and free rent growing up. I paid for car, car and health insurance, college, textbooks, and everything else. It wasn't a glamourous life those days but life isn't fair or easy, and people have to sacrifice and work hard to succeed.

It is each one of jobs to gain work experience and education to be attractive to a company and do more for the company than someone without that. These companies have been around than most of us anyway, so it's stupid to think that they owe us. This country is populated with people who will do it cheaper but not necessarily better. Make something of yourself and in time you will have the lifestyle you can be happy with. Going out into the workforce, with or without a degree, does not mean you deserve anything, nor should you expect to have a new car and home then, to many kids these days just don't want to put in the years of soul crushing work necessary to live at least as well as their parents. If you can't do the job, someone else will. And that's why companies don't owe you anymore than you owe them. It is a mutually beneficial relationship, the company gets it's profit and grows, and you can benefits and a paycheck, if you don't get benefits then get your experience and leave, you have that option in Capitaism.

It's just all this anti-Capitalism that scares me. No system is perfect but forcing businesses to provide us with additional funding so we can have a minimum lifestyle is a nice dream but it will never be. I never looked at my $30K in loans after I graduated and thought all those companies out there should pay this. It was my decision to go and because of it, I can make and extra 10 or 20K a year. It's an investment, like investing in a house or your children, no risk no reward. People who work 2 or 3 jobs and don't have the education can at least qualify for some programs to stay afloat.

I think if you looked at Socialism, you would see how much you really give up, just to be equal. Be grateful you have the options to do what you want, and work where you want and have that independence, all these brainwashed kids on here for Socialism, I encourage you to go to one of those countrys and and practice what you preach over there. I actually agree with Obama on precious little, but I liked his idea of mandatory military service, I think those in this country with have a lot more respect for it.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']

I think the current system could benefit from some more social assistance [/QUOTE]

i dont think you realize how many programs are out there.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']I can relate to what you are saying completely, but the snobby side of me says, I busted my ass in college and am currently going back for my master's to make more money. The degrees and my work experience, I started working when I was 16 is the reason why I am doing pretty good these days. When I started working I made min. wage myself. And I never got any support, other than moral support and free rent growing up. I paid for car, car and health insurance, college, textbooks, and everything else. It wasn't a glamourous life those days but life isn't fair or easy, and people have to sacrifice and work hard to succeed.

It is each one of jobs to gain work experience and education to be attractive to a company and do more for the company than someone without that. These companies have been around than most of us anyway, so it's stupid to think that they owe us. This country is populated with people who will do it cheaper but not necessarily better. Make something of yourself and in time you will have the lifestyle you can be happy with. Going out into the workforce, with or without a degree, does not mean you deserve anything, nor should you expect to have a new car and home then, to many kids these days just don't want to put in the years of soul crushing work necessary to live at least as well as their parents. If you can't do the job, someone else will. And that's why companies don't owe you anymore than you owe them. It is a mutually beneficial relationship, the company gets it's profit and grows, and you can benefits and a paycheck, if you don't get benefits then get your experience and leave, you have that option in Capitaism.

It's just all this anti-Capitalism that scares me. No system is perfect but forcing businesses to provide us with additional funding so we can have a minimum lifestyle is a nice dream but it will never be. I never looked at my $30K in loans after I graduated and thought all those companies out there should pay this. It was my decision to go and because of it, I can make and extra 10 or 20K a year. It's an investment, like investing in a house or your children, no risk no reward. People who work 2 or 3 jobs and don't have the education can at least qualify for some programs to stay afloat.

I think if you looked at Socialism, you would see how much you really give up, just to be equal. Be grateful you have the options to do what you want, and work where you want and have that independence, all these brainwashed kids on here for Socialism, I encourage you to go to one of those countrys and and practice what you preach over there. I actually agree with Obama on precious little, but I liked his idea of mandatory military service, I think those in this country with have a lot more respect for it.[/QUOTE]

Wait a minute - you started working when you were 16 and you're in college now?? Well why didn't you say so! You're obviously qualified to understand everything there is to know about how businesses exploit unskilled workers, foreign markets, and the environment.

Extra points for the "if you point out a problem with something I like you should leave" BS at the end.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']I can relate to what you are saying completely, but the snobby side of me says, I busted my ass in college and am currently going back for my master's to make more money. The degrees and my work experience, I started working when I was 16 is the reason why I am doing pretty good these days. When I started working I made min. wage myself. And I never got any support, other than moral support and free rent growing up.[/quote]
You didn't get a subsidized college loan? Did you go to a private school?
 
I like the idea of a 6-pack and some cigars. We'll never agree on anything as long as we sit in our own homes and bitch about how things are. The Declaration of Independence would've never been finished in the Internet Age.

Why do people constantly say that a socialist system will take all their money? Also, why do people continue to say that their master's will be worthless if we switch over?

Last time I checked, a socialist government provides more services (not necessarily efficiently) at a higher tax rate. If you made 3 million selling widgets, you'll still take home more than the guy that makes 40k making them. Salaries will not be equal and the highly trained professionals and risk-taking entrepreneurs will still make a nice living.

As it sits, Norway and Sweden's highest tax brackets are only 15% (45.3% to 59.09%) higher than our highest tax brackets. I'm still going over the numbers but most middle class citizens in the Scandanavian countries pay less than 10% more than we do. So for around 10% more, they get universal healthcare and free university. And you guys are honestly trying to say that's a bad deal?
 
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[quote name='depascal22']As it sits, Norway and Sweden's highest tax brackets are only 15% (45.3% to 59.09%) higher than our highest tax brackets. I'm still going over the numbers but most middle class citizens in the Scandanavian countries pay less than 10% more than we do. So for around 10% more, they get universal healthcare and free university. And you guys are honestly trying to say that's a bad deal?[/QUOTE]

They also have two months of vacation, a longer life expectancy, ...

Never mind. Stuff like that only reinforces your point.
 
[quote name='depascal22']As it sits, Norway and Sweden's highest tax brackets are only 15% (45.3% to 59.09%) higher than our highest tax brackets. I'm still going over the numbers but most middle class citizens in the Scandanavian countries pay less than 10% more than we do. So for around 10% more, they get universal healthcare and free university. And you guys are honestly trying to say that's a bad deal?[/QUOTE]
Business could never work in those places. That's why there's no business there.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I like the idea of a 6-pack and some cigars. We'll never agree on anything as long as we sit in our own homes and bitch about how things are. The Declaration of Independence would've never been finished in the Internet Age.

Why do people constantly say that a socialist system will take all their money? Also, why do people continue to say that their master's will be worthless if we switch over?

Last time I checked, a socialist government provides more services (not necessarily efficiently) at a higher tax rate. If you made 3 million selling widgets, you'll still take home more than the guy that makes 40k making them. Salaries will not be equal and the highly trained professionals and risk-taking entrepreneurs will still make a nice living.

As it sits, Norway and Sweden's highest tax brackets are only 15% (45.3% to 59.09%) higher than our highest tax brackets. I'm still going over the numbers but most middle class citizens in the Scandanavian countries pay less than 10% more than we do. So for around 10% more, they get universal healthcare and free university. And you guys are honestly trying to say that's a bad deal?[/QUOTE]

Let's not forget that they pay $9 a gallon in gas (which you are probably ok with), $25 for a music CD, and super high VAT on everything else. Most things in Europe are paid for through VAT versus income tax.

You only want to look at income tax. They pay a fortune to do pretty much anything outside of their house. My best friend just got back from living in Finland for 2 years (and may be going back), even though he is a super liberal near-socialist himself, he was constantly complaining about how much everything cost and how he could not understand how anyone could afford to live there without making six figures. Rent is ridiculous, owning a car is only for the very wealthy, and owning a house is usually out of the question unless you are quite wealthy or it's been in the family forever.

On the bright side, one of the best careers a young woman can have in Scandinavia is being a single mother. The countries are worried about declining population so they pay well to have babies. It's not like we don't have enough problems with broken families, we don't need government to sponsor it.

Your dreamland of copying those countries would leave most Americans riding busses, living in huge apartment buildings and living more modest lives than now. Wile you might be ok with that to help "equalize" everyone, most Americans aren't.
 
thrust

Rent is ridiculous, owning a car is only for the very wealthy, and owning a house is usually out of the question unless you are quite wealthy or it's been in the family forever.
Click to expand...

That is basically how anywhere and here if we didn't subsidize home ownership and a car based lifestyle (gasoline especially).
 
[quote name='Msut77']

Especially considering college used to be much cheaper with more aid and loan terms that were not usurious.[/QUOTE]


And now that you mention it....didn't full time clerks at grocery stores and department stores used to be able to pretty adequately support one or two kids and a spouse?
 
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[quote name='gareman']And now that you mention it....didn't full time clerks at grocery stores and department stores used to be able to pretty adequately support one or two kids and spouse?[/QUOTE]

At Costco and unionized groceries you still can.

As much as any worker can support a family sans higher education (in this case meaning masters or phd).

Once upon a time a single breadwinner regularly could support an entire family.

Although it sounds like a fantasy nowadays.
 
[quote name='Msut77']At Costco and unionized groceries you still can.

As much as any worker can support a family sans higher education (in this case meaning masters or phd).

Once upon a time a single breadwinner regularly could support an entire family.

Although it sounds like a fantasy nowadays.[/QUOTE]

You pretty much can at the food co-op I work at, but then again that's run by liberals.
I just think it's funny that people just accept the fact that even managers at bigger nonunion grocery stores and department stores need to take out a second job in order to support a family.
 
[quote name='Msut77']At Costco and unionized groceries you still can.

As much as any worker can support a family sans higher education (in this case meaning masters or phd).

Once upon a time a single breadwinner regularly could support an entire family.

Although it sounds like a fantasy nowadays.[/QUOTE]

Once upon a time, you didn't have cell phones, internet, pay-TV, Netflix, two+ car families, etc., etc.

It's odd - the more stuff you have, the more you have to spend to keep it all.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Once upon a time, you didn't have cell phones, internet, pay-TV, Netflix, two+ car families, etc., etc.

It's odd - the more stuff you have, the more you have to spend to keep it all.[/QUOTE]

So you think the reason full time employees can no longer support themselves much less a family is because of cell-phones, cable tv, and netflix?
 
All I know is that capiltalism for all its faults, real and made up, is still the best system we have at the moment.

Communism has failed everywhere except China and no other system affords the personal freedoms that capitalism offers. That isn't to say it can't be improved, but capitalism is the very reason a site like CAG can exist in the first place and all of us here take advantage of capitalism to advance our own positions.

I have no problem with social programs that are strictly monitored, but the amount of waste is ridiculous. I have a friend whose father used to be a millionaire, but now is a crack addict, gets $1300 every two weeks from the government which he blows on crack, doesn't have a job so gets $200 a month in food stamps which he trades to people for money for crack, and his daughter lets him stay rent free in his apartments. As a social parasite he is doing almost as well (speaking strictly in a financial sense) as me and I have a bachelor's degree and a salaried job.

Something about that isn't right.

Now that isn't to say there are people who are really in need that use social services as intended, but I think if you look at how many people are chronically unemployed leeches that don't even try to support themselves you'd wonder why your tax dollars aren't monitored more carefully to funnel money where it is truly needed.
 
[quote name='gareman']So you think the reason full time employees can no longer support themselves much less a family is because of cell-phones, cable tv, and netflix?[/QUOTE]
Added with inflation and taxation, sure.

[quote name='GuilewasNK']All I know is that capiltalism for all its faults, real and made up, is still the best system we have at the moment.

Communism has failed everywhere except China and no other system affords the personal freedoms that capitalism offers. That isn't to say it can't be improved, but capitalism is the very reason a site like CAG can exist in the first place and all of us here take advantage of capitalism to advance our own positions.

I have no problem with social programs that are strictly monitored, but the amount of waste is ridiculous. I have a friend whose father used to be a millionaire, but now is a crack addict, gets $1300 every two weeks from the government which he blows on crack, doesn't have a job so gets $200 a month in food stamps which he trades to people for money for crack, and his daughter lets him stay rent free in his apartments. As a social parasite he is doing almost as well (speaking strictly in a financial sense) as me and I have a bachelor's degree and a salaried job.

Something about that isn't right.

Now that isn't to say there are people who are really in need that use social services as intended, but I think if you look at how many people are chronically unemployed leeches that don't even try to support themselves you'd wonder why your tax dollars aren't monitored more carefully to funnel money where it is truly needed.[/QUOTE]

Good point. You make a pretty good sales pitch for why maybe i shouldn't be working full time in a salaried position. The system is pretty easy to take advantage of already, not sure we need to make it Euro-style nanny state just yet.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']

Good point. You make a pretty good sales pitch for why maybe i shouldn't be working full time in a salaried position. The system is pretty easy to take advantage of already, not sure we need to make it Euro-style nanny state just yet.[/QUOTE]


Gotta love the anecdotal arguments against social programs.
 
[quote name='gareman']Gotta love the anecdotal arguments against social programs.[/QUOTE]

I learned the saying "The plural of anecdote is not data" in the 6th grade.

What I really love is the unquestioned belief that "monitoring" is free.
 
[quote name='Msut77']I learned the saying "The plural of anecdote is not data" in the 6th grade.

What I really love is the unquestioned belief that "monitoring" is free.[/QUOTE]

Who said it was free?

As for the anecdotal comment earlier, I have been homeless before. I know what it is like to receive food stamps because you have no way of buying food. However, it was supposed to be a temporary thing until you get back on your feet. When my dad got out of the military we had some REALLY rough times because he couldn't find a job. Car repossessed, all four of us living in an aunt's living room that was 8 feet by 8 feet, bankruptcy, no idea how we were going to make it. The only thing I was ever aware we received in the way of assistance was food stamps and the kindness of our family so believe me I speak from experience when I say that social programs can be a godsend.

However, I also know people abuse the system more than you could imagine. Almost every person my friend knows of that is on food stamps sell them for drug money. Now, maybe she just knows a lot of bad people, or maybe it is just the area we are in, but there is a thing in retail called loss prevention. You mean to tell me the government, who spends money on all kinds of ridiculous shit, can't spend money for their own version of "loss prevention" to be accountable for every dollar doing what it was supposed to do instead of feeding drug habits? I don't really give a shit if someone gets high, but you don't have a right for tax dollars to pay for it.

Not only would government loss prevention (for social programs and general congressional spending) create new jobs, it will ensure people who really need assistance get it instead of people working the system. Don't even get me started on the abuse of some in the federal Pell grant system.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']You make a pretty good sales pitch for why maybe i shouldn't be working full time in a salaried position.[/QUOTE]

My wife and I had a discussion as to what will happen to her mom should her grandmother (and housemate) die first.

We don't have a good answer. I just hope her mom dies first so that her grandmother can move in with her other daughter.
 
thrust, Finland is the bastard step brother of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. That country is still dealing with the vestiges of the Communism and can't really be used as a good example when I'm talking about one of the Scandanavian countries that got Socialism right.

So let's talk about high gas prices and cars being for the rich. Why is that a bad thing? If everything is within walking distance and there's a great public transportation system, why do you NEED a car? I'll admit their system works because of the geography of Scandanavia and general attitude toward community and the environment but there's no reason we can't get Americans to rethink what really matters in this world.

You also talked about VAT. You don't have to pay VAT to go for a walk and talk to your neighbors. It doesn't cost a dime to push your kid on the swing. Americans have become programmed to spend money at every step and it's getting ridiculous. It feels like no one is having fun unless you're bombarded by stimuli at all times.
 
[quote name='depascal22']thrust, Finland is the bastard step brother of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. That country is still dealing with the vestiges of the Communism and can't really be used as a good example when I'm talking about one of the Scandanavian countries that got Socialism right.[/quote]

I'm not really sure what you are talking about.
Are you talking about the same Finland that is ranked number 1 in the Legatum Prosperity Index (Sweden, Denmark, and Norway are 3rd, 4th, 5th)?
Same Finland that is ranked number 1 in Science and ability to use Science, number 1 in reading performance, as well as number 2 in Math?

Where exactly are you getting your information that Finland lags behind the other Scandinavian countries in any way? In which way? Maybe you are referring to healthcare only? In that case you would be right. Barely.

Have you been to any of those countries? I have a few times. Nice places to visit, but if you like buying stuff, it would suck to live.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Who said it was free?

As for the anecdotal comment earlier, I have been homeless before. I know what it is like to receive food stamps because you have no way of buying food. However, it was supposed to be a temporary thing until you get back on your feet. When my dad got out of the military we had some REALLY rough times because he couldn't find a job. Car repossessed, all four of us living in an aunt's living room that was 8 feet by 8 feet, bankruptcy, no idea how we were going to make it. The only thing I was ever aware we received in the way of assistance was food stamps and the kindness of our family so believe me I speak from experience when I say that social programs can be a godsend.

However, I also know people abuse the system more than you could imagine. Almost every person my friend knows of that is on food stamps sell them for drug money. Now, maybe she just knows a lot of bad people, or maybe it is just the area we are in, but there is a thing in retail called loss prevention. You mean to tell me the government, who spends money on all kinds of ridiculous shit, can't spend money for their own version of "loss prevention" to be accountable for every dollar doing what it was supposed to do instead of feeding drug habits? I don't really give a shit if someone gets high, but you don't have a right for tax dollars to pay for it.

Not only would government loss prevention (for social programs and general congressional spending) create new jobs, it will ensure people who really need assistance get it instead of people working the system. Don't even get me started on the abuse of some in the federal Pell grant system.[/QUOTE]


That I agree with. Thanks for clearing your point up a little better.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Have you been to any of those countries? I have a few times. Nice places to visit, but if you like buying stuff, it would suck to live.[/QUOTE]

If buying crap you largely don't need is a big part of what makes you happy, you have much bigger issues to deal with than where you live.
 
[quote name='depascal22']
So let's talk about high gas prices and cars being for the rich. Why is that a bad thing? If everything is within walking distance and there's a great public transportation system, why do you NEED a car? I'll admit their system works because of the geography of Scandanavia and general attitude toward community and the environment but there's no reason we can't get Americans to rethink what really matters in this world. [/quote]
So we should give up our standard of living, for what reason now? And instead we should take shitty buses that take 3-5 times as long as a car? What if the bus won't take you where you need to go? Because I'd love to hop on the bus and take a 2 and a half hour bus ride, when I could take a car and get there in 30 mins.
You also talked about VAT. You don't have to pay VAT to go for a walk and talk to your neighbors. It doesn't cost a dime to push your kid on the swing. Americans have become programmed to spend money at every step and it's getting ridiculous. It feels like no one is having fun unless you're bombarded by stimuli at all times.
Click to expand...
So you are for regressive tax systems now? The VAT is a regressive form of tax you know.
[quote name='dmaul1114']If buying crap you largely don't need is a big part of what makes you happy, you have much bigger issues to deal with than where you live.[/QUOTE]
And you're for a regressive form of taxation too? Wow, it's like the world just flipped right over.
 
[quote name='gareman']Gotta love the anecdotal arguments against social programs.[/QUOTE]

Quite similar to the anecdotal stories people bring up to argue *for* social programs - about the grandma who can't afford her pills or the college student who gets denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition.

[quote name='gareman']So you think the reason full time employees can no longer support themselves much less a family is because of cell-phones, cable tv, and netflix?[/QUOTE]

As someone who lived quite well for a couple of years on a minimum wage job and no direct government handouts, with no support from my parents, I can say that I firmly believe that the "higher cost of living" is due more to the higher choice of lifestyle we choose to have.

(Assuming you're in the same generation I am, where you grew up in the 80's/early 90's)

How many cars did your parents have? How many does your family have now?
How many TVs did your parents have? How many do you have now?
How much a month did your parents pay for television service? How much do you pay now?
Cell phones?
Internet?
How many computers did your parents own?
How many miles did your parents commute to work? What's your daily commute like?
How often did y'all eat out growing up? How often do you eat out now?
It was all I could do to get an NES when I was young. I couldn't imagine having *two* systems at the same time. Who's got two or more of the current gen systems (Wii, 360, PS3)?
$50/year to play video games online? In addition to that $30-$50 Internet bill? How much did your parents pay?
 
That's all true. But necessities like rent/mortgages have went up a lot (down some now, but still not to where they were 5-10 years ago. As have prices on staple foods (milk, bread etc.). Medical insurance premiums have rose, car insurance premiums have rose, gas prices have rose, clothing prices have increased etc. etc.

At the same time, wages haven't rose by equivalent amounts for the working lower class. So while some of it is people living beyond their means (being from WV, though I don't live their anymore, I can tell you the "satelitte dish on a trailer" stereotype really is a fact of life in poor areas), a lot of it is simply the fact that its harder to make ends meet on minimum wage and slightly above jobs as increases in these wages haven't matched inflation. So even those living barebones and not wasting money on luxuries are going to struggle more than people who did the same in the past.

And it also depends where you live. You can get buy on minimum wage in a rural shithole easier than you can in a city or suburban areas. But of course those minimum wage jobs are harder to come by in rural areas since there are less of the and a large pool of under-educated and under-skilled people in rural areas vying for those jobs. Vs. more populated areas where there area gazillion fast food restaurnts, convenience stores, and shitty manual labor jobs. Point being the "move out of the pricey city/suburbs" counter isn't really valid as it will be tougher to find a job with no skills/education required in a rural area where turnover is less frequent and competition for shit jobs is fiercer. In my crummy home town in WV it was damn hard to get summer jobs in high school/college as there just weren't as many options. Still plenty of now hiring/help wanted signs at burger joints etc. in the cities I've lived in during this economic downturn (DC and now Atlanta).
 
As someone who lives in a rural shithole, I can honestly say, as long as you're willing to:

A.) Show up for work, dressed and clean
B.) Do your job (minimally, even)
C.) Not be strung out on drugs or alcohol when showing up for work
D.) Can keep your pants zipped

You can find plenty of minimum wage jobs dying to hire you.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Who said it was free?[/quote]

You are certainly acting as if it is. The numbers you actually deign to throw around involve someone gaming the system for 200 a month, how much do you think it cost to constantly "monitor" a person?

Almost every person my friend knows of that is on food stamps sell them for drug money.
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Most places have made the jump to cards that work like a debit card, it has helped cut fraud down to a fraction of what it was. The numbers for fraud from what I have seen don't really mesh with what your friends of a friend of a friend say.

As for the anecdotal comment earlier, I have been homeless before. I know what it is like to receive food stamps because you have no way of buying food. However, it was supposed to be a temporary thing until you get back on your feet. When my dad got out of the military we had some REALLY rough times because he couldn't find a job. Car repossessed, all four of us living in an aunt's living room that was 8 feet by 8 feet, bankruptcy, no idea how we were going to make it. The only thing I was ever aware we received in the way of assistance was food stamps and the kindness of our family so believe me I speak from experience when I say that social programs can be a godsend.
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Life is hard sometimes. I think ruined once said him and his family were more or less on welfare once too.

I see what you are saying but to me though it is just an example of how many cons or glibertarians don't believe in pulling oneself up by the bootstraps as it is they believe in pulling up the ladder behind them.

Not only would government loss prevention (for social programs and general congressional spending) create new jobs
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Call me naive but perhaps we can divert that money and energy to go after millionaire tax cheats instead.
 
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[quote name='UncleBob']Quite similar to the anecdotal stories people bring up to argue *for* social programs[/quote]

No it isn't similar.

In the "examples" you use it was explained to you that although certain cases are publicized to humanize the issue there were still gobs of data to back it up.

I can say that I firmly believe that the "higher cost of living" is due more to the higher choice of lifestyle we choose to have.
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Do you also "firmly believe" that the fact that income has stagnated or declined for almost everyone has nothing to do with it?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']As someone who lives in a rural shithole, I can honestly say, as long as you're willing to:

A.) Show up for work, dressed and clean
B.) Do your job (minimally, even)
C.) Not be strung out on drugs or alcohol when showing up for work
D.) Can keep your pants zipped

You can find plenty of minimum wage jobs dying to hire you.[/QUOTE]

Just varies by area I guess. Growing up we had 3 fast food restaurants, a couple sit down joints, 2 grocery stores and 3 gas stations as about the only options minimum wage wise.

Beyond that there was a paper factory that paid a bit more, janitorial jobs (but not many--schools, a small hospital etc.). Coal mining was the biggest employer--and despite being dangerous it wasn't the easiest job to get as it was one of the better paying jobs.

There were more jobs in the bigger towns, but you were looking at 40+ minute one-way commutes.

It's a bit better now as there's a Wal-mart now (though that killed off one of the other grocery stores. And some more fast food places have popped up along with a couple of strip malls etc.

But from what I hear from my parents, it's still tough with this economy. Most of the jobs were already filled and aren't turning over as much as people know they'd have a harder time finding something else in this job climate.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']As someone who lives in a rural shithole, I can honestly say, as long as you're willing to:

A.) Show up for work, dressed and clean
B.) Do your job (minimally, even)
C.) Not be strung out on drugs or alcohol when showing up for work
D.) Can keep your pants zipped

You can find plenty of minimum wage jobs dying to hire you.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, no wonder these are typically characterized as "jobs Americans don't want to do." ;)
 
So the Scandanavian countries (I'll include Finland even though it was a shithole when I visited 10 years ago) have the highest level of prosperity on the planet and the conservatives on this thread want to act like we'll be lowering our standard of living if we emulate them? How does that work?

You can't use the statistics and then tell everyone how we'd be stupid to try what they're doing. All these statistics show how those countries prosper and their people are super happy but those don't matter and we should never do anything that would put us near the top of that list. Is that what you all are saying?
 
[quote name='depascal22']So the Scandanavian countries (I'll include Finland even though it was a shithole when I visited 10 years ago) have the highest level of prosperity on the planet and the conservatives on this thread want to act like we'll be lowering our standard of living if we emulate them? How does that work?

You can't use the statistics and then tell everyone how we'd be stupid to try what they're doing. All these statistics show how those countries prosper and their people are super happy but those don't matter and we should never do anything that would put us near the top of that list. Is that what you all are saying?[/QUOTE]

Yes. God, yes.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Thanks for quoting to the top of the page, FoC. Your smart-assery came in handy.[/QUOTE]

You're welcome. I'm glad to be of marginal use.
 
[quote name='camoor']Wait a minute - you started working when you were 16 and you're in college now?? Well why didn't you say so! You're obviously qualified to understand everything there is to know about how businesses exploit unskilled workers, foreign markets, and the environment.

Extra points for the "if you point out a problem with something I like you should leave" BS at the end.[/QUOTE]

You want to talk about exploitation? How about how the government taxes more than a quarter your pay and is trillions of dollars in debt. Or how the gov. has destroyed the value of our money. How about all the millions they spend on pork and give lobbyists special favors? Now tell me how this same government would improve all our lives by switching to a sociallist economic and political system. Somebody please tell me all the wonders of socialism and how it will fix all the problems you mentioned and not create any problems, this magical socialism.

I gotta come on and defend myself more. I graduated college and am getting my master's. I've been working for almost 15 years now. I don't know what your qualifications are so try and make a point so I can try and have a debate. You, and in fact nobody else, can tell me how socialism would cure all the ills you find in capitalism, you will create more problems by relying on the government. Do you really want to have the government make all decisions for you? They will own your health insurance, your job, your paycheck, they will take all the choices but the most mundane away from you.

Government can never manage businesses successfully the way the owners themselves do. And they have no right to take away ownership of those who create and run their companies. When you take those choices away from people, you will kill any creativity because the bottom line is you will have no control over it. Funny how everyone got all in arms here when the idea of the gov. having the ability to wiretap suspected terrorists, but everyone now is ok with giving complete control of their wages, jobs, health insurance, education, and whatever else that matters to the government. As if the government is just so careful and responsible. It's a complete takeover of our freedom and the government has a pretty poor track record when it comes to being responsible with taxpayer money, and it will NEVER happen in America, it's just a few bleeding hearts here and there who can't accept the fact that it's up to the individual to work and get the lifestyle they want, not expect handouts and sharing the wealth.
 
It's not black and white, you can't compete when giant companies can enslave third-world countries and get handouts from the government. Your solution to this problem is to cut off social assistance? Why not stop trying to win the debate and start thinking about the problem?

We are consuming too much, that's for sure. The government is not holding corporations responsible for their actions, that's also for sure. Wages for "working hard" are dropping so that "getting by" is now a dream for many. Let's try and work together toward a solution since bickering and selfishness has gotten us nowhere.

Palin 2012!
 
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