The psychology of this generation.

seanr1221

seanr1221

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I've been thinking about this a lot this generation. There are a few behaviors I've noticed going on in myself and others, and it got me thinking. I thought it would be good to have a discussion about it here.

For the past 5 years I've been studying the behavioral side of psychology. I'm not a strict behaviorist (most aren't these days) and I can see the neurological side to behavior, but there are still a lot of behavioral principles at play this gen.

Achievements and Trophies are up first. That ding you hear when you unlock something isn't just there for fun. It's most likely there to classically condition you to the sound. You hear the noise, and instantly your behavior changes. You might become excited or relieved and not even realize it. From a behavior standpoint, the only thing I'd change (on the xbox) is to have a different sound for when friends sign on. This would prevent habituation to occur, and the link between the sound and pleasant feelings will become even stronger.

The social aspect is another interesting part. Comparing games, sharing achievements, displaying what you've played...all of it contribute to us being more social. We're social creatures by nature. The Wii seems to have the classic approach of bringing everyone together, while the PS3 and 360 recognize most people communicate digitally today. Perfect example is how much I play xbox with my old roommate. He lives about 40 minutes away, so I don't see him that often, but we play 360 at least 3 times a week. It's a social event, and it helps a company lock you into one system once you get a consistency down. It also will make people play co-op games they normally wouldn't; the social experience outweighs if the game is great or not.

One area I hadn't even considered is loss aversion. This page has a great article I found

http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2010/01/04/loss-aversion-achievements-and-trial-conversions/

Basically, by demos telling you that you COULD have earned awards/trophies/achievements, it makes you more likely to buy the product.

Now, some of you will say you don't care about achievements or trophies. You only play with random people, and all of this is bullshit. You have to remember, when something is reinforcing, it will always increase behavior. Also, what is reinforcing to me, doesn't HAVE to be reinforcing to you (in technical terms, we just call that a reward).

Analysing my own behavior, I am positively reinforced by achievements, along with the social aspects of Live, that lead me to buy most of my games on 360 (well, most likely, its not like I did a case study ;) ).

What do you guys think? Im hoping for an intelligent discussion here.

***sorry for any typos, I typed all this up on my iPad***
 
id be more interested as to why so any kids who game talk so much shit or act like complete tools. its like theyre all so damn starved for attention they need act out online to get it.
 
I played WoW for nearly 5 years, which is the definition of an incredibly social game built on artificial rewards. So I can definitely agree with the notion that being reminded that we are progressing in something is also motivation to keep moving forward. However, I never understood the appeal of trophies and achievements as they offer literally nothing to the player, and this is one of the reasons I quit WoW.

You take down a raid boss in WoW, you get amazing loot that you must split amongst the group. You level up, you get stats, more abilities, more freedom. You defeat a hard encounter that only 5% of the people have done on your server -- you get the armor to show it off.

Where as achievements give literally nothing. No reason to keep moving forward but to add another 10 pts to your meaningless gamer score. Blizzard made WoW easy, they made all that gear and notoriety available to everyone, and thus took out all satisfaction from the end game. But boy do people love chasing those achievements. And I'm not saying that all the WoW achievements are useless. I very much enjoyed getting a kickass mount that no one else had by doing a set of tough challenges with a group of friends -- but we only did it to get a sweet dragon to ride, so people could see how good we were. Achievements that only give points though? You have to be kidding me.

Going off the subject of WoW, achievments and trophies for PS3 and XBL were a brilliant move that I wouldn't have thought of because I misunderstood how pathetic people can be. And yes, that's a shot at half of CAG, sorry.

They are literally nothing. No one cares about your gamer score that you achieved by spending hours hunting easter eggs in all of your games. Last gen people did crazy shit in games because the games were simply fun. Now you need a to-do list that tells you how to enjoy your games.

Yes, there are trophies that offer fun challenges that you could of thought of doing yourself, but you never would because they aren't worth a trophy. Honestly, people ran around in Assassin's Creed to find all the flags which is about as amusing as looking for candy wrappers to pick up around your local park (and that's more productive, mind you).

It's dumb. Some people on here spend money on games with trophies as a primary selling point. Maybe if you could use gamer score to purchase a game, maybe if you could get special unlocks for your games, but no -- nothing but a meaningless amount of points for you to put in a forum signature. And we're supposed to be impressed that you have the time to go hunting for flags in Assassin's Creed? Is gaming really that boring? I wanted to play SSF4 with a CAG way back when, and he ended up asking me to help him get trophies by rigging games in between each other. It was the most boring 10 minutes of SSF4 I've ever played.

I originally thought achievements were a harmless addition to gaming, just an annoying little window that would pop up and hopefully go away and let me continue playing. But it's a major incentive for many gamers today, and it's a major design aspect of many games that offer nothing new to the table but an artificial reward systems (CoD anyone?). If people see +10 pts next to every kill they make in a shooter, well that's all the reason they need to keep playing.


EDIT: And to call achievement sharing a significant social aspect of gaming, well that's an incredibly sad observation.
 
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It's interesting you harp on them being meaningless when most things that reinforce our behavior could be considered meaningless by anyone. As I mentioned, there's a very clear distinction between reward and reinforcement. You see achievements and trophies as rewards, while others view them as positive reinforcement.
 
[quote name='lokizz']id be more interested as to why so any kids who game talk so much shit or act like complete tools.[/QUOTE]

this is what happens when you give people complete anonymity. more often than not, there's no actions taken for things they say. this is a glimpse as to what society would be like if there was no regulation.

the achievement thing was such a brilliant addition. it's similar to pavlov's experiment minus the physical reward. our reward comes in the form of bragging rights. i almost wonder if certain games like avatar: tbe or tmnt would be more well received if it was harder to get the achievements.

it works well for developers, too. some people play through games multiple times just to get achievements. some people will play games solely for the achievements.

for myself, i'm positively reinforced by achievements, but i don't go out of my way to get them. i used to, though. if i'm playing through a game, i'll try crazy things to get achievements.. i don't read a list of how to get them, though.. that takes the fun out of it.
 
How is looking at others achievements and trophies not a social aspect of gaming?

"Oh I see you beat Mass Effect on insane, how was it?"

As I mentioned, we seem to be social by nature, and being able to share information only helps that drive. Why do you think social networking pages are so popular?
 
I barely go after achievements. I don't have many on any platform and the one's I do get I get while naturally playing a game, or if I want to see what else I can do in the game and if the achievements offer any suggestions in that respect. If I were more obsessed with achievements, I would at least want to make sure I gained them legitimately.

I'm not sure of the appeal of achievements to some people if they are deliberately cheating to get the achievement, like the above mentioned SSF4 example of taking turns to set up conditions to unlock the achievement. the achievement's meant to be earned in the heat of battle, not during a choreographed match. There's no honor in the score if it's acquired in a dishonorable manner.

But it's clear some people don't see it that way, because plenty of people will "boost" their scores, plenty of people will use action replays or hacks to get to the top of leaderboards too. Doesn't make any sense to me, it goes against the idea of a challenge and competition, which is the entire point of achievements/high scores.
 
Achievements offer new ways to play a game and give direction to your playing. They also give you a higher gamerscore that you can compare to people on your friends list. Achievements were so cool that the PS3,Steam, some iphone/ipad games, and even WoW picked them up too.

Microsoft did something right with cheevos bro.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']It's interesting you harp on them being meaningless when most things that reinforce our behavior could be considered meaningless by anyone. As I mentioned, there's a very clear distinction between reward and reinforcement. You see achievements and trophies as rewards, while others view them as positive reinforcement.[/QUOTE]

Everything we do for leisurely enjoyment is mostly meaningless, you are right. And it is wrong for me to judge others simply because they get their meaningless enjoyment in a different way.

I just find it pathetic that anyone could find enjoyment in such a way. Perhaps children, but I'd expect people on CAG to be looking for more rewarding aspects of gaming beyond the 10 points they collected from replaying Dead Space using a plasma cutter.

[quote name='seanr1221']How is looking at others achievements and trophies not a social aspect of gaming?

"Oh I see you beat Mass Effect on insane, how was it?"

As I mentioned, we seem to be social by nature, and being able to share information only helps that drive. Why do you think social networking pages are so popular?[/QUOTE]

Well, I do actually like them for showing me what my friends are playing. I wouldn't call that a significant social aspect of gaming though.
 
Yeah, games are just meaningless time wasters. There's nothing wrong with people who enjoy going after achievements, or spending hours going for loot in WoW etc. etc. As long as they're having fun, that's all that matters.

I'm not big on achievements. I'll go after them if they are something that's fun to work toward in a game I like--for instance the Horde achievements in Gears of War, or getting achievements for doing all the sidequests in RPGs like Oblivion or Fallout 3 etc.

Those just give a little added bonus for keeping playing games I enjoy after beating that I may not have done in the past. But I won't pick up games just for achievements, or go after ones that are no fun like finding all the feathers in Assassin's Creed 2, or beating games on hardest difficulty (which just frustrates the hell out of me etc.). I don't care about gamerscore, so achievements only get targeted if they're basically an excuse to keep having some fun with one game before moving on to something new. If it's not fun, I don't bother.
 
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Ah, another one of those trophy/achievement thing :)

Well, let's talk... First off, nothing we do in our hours of entertainment make any sense other than, ahem, entertain ourselves. Why do we spend so much money watching a concert? Sports events? Camping out to see/buy celebrities/hot items? All of that are merely our pathetic ways to get some kind of "reward" we normally don't get in our mundane everyday life :)

Now, with that out of the way, we can talk about "rewards" in video game. Why do we play games? To entertain ourselves of course, duh! So, how do we measure satisfaction? How to we know when we're "full" (excitement dies out, need something else to rekindle the interest/desire)?

Let's talk about basic needs, like shelter, food and sex... The basics are the same, but when you reach certain levels, you want new ways to be satisfied (nothing beats a dirty mind, think of SEX). The same principles apply to gaming, it all boil down to how do one measure the level of satisfaction. Here are some thoughts:

1. Beating a game on various difficulties (modes like CRUSHING, IMPOSSIBLE etc)

2. Unlocking secrets in a game (alternate endings, characters, weapons etc)

3. Discovery glitches, bugs, tricks, codes, hidden Easter eggs (like hot steamy sexy scenes not meant to be "seen" in a certain GTA game or that negative level in NES Super Mario Bros game)

4. Playing online so no more predictable AI patterns. Let it beat sneaking behind and go for a silent kill or sniper kill in a secret location....

5. Buying games cheap! Yep, just for the hell of it. This applies to a number of CAGs actually. All the player wanted to do is to be able to "jump" on the "hot deals." He/she not necessarily has to like or play the game, just the thrill of able to get the deal :)

6. Hoarding... Being able to hoard the "hot deals." The player feels like he/she scored the ultimate heist when he/she got a bunch of games the other players moaning about. It's pretty much like watching people beg :lol:

7. Flipping... Tiny little penny/dollar here and there. But it's not about that, it's about the thrill of able to flip games for a pretty coin.

8. Collecting... Mint mint mint, nothing beats the thrill of having sealed copied and cluster fucks in the house :) Oh, you never know, the collection might worth millions.

9. Bragging... About anything, ranging from beating a game on hard, collecting everything in a game, killing newbies online, getting cheap games in yard sales, "winning" online arguments...

10. Brand loyalty (ahem fan boys/girls)... Nothing is more sacred that defending the very ground that they plant their feet on, let it be Apple/MS/Nintendo/PC/Sony etc (note, it's in alphabetical order, don't read too much into it, I know a fan boy/girl loves to find a cheap thrill, but trust me, it's not in here).

Okay, so where to begin with trophy/achievements? Oh, probably already covered :lol:

Honestly, everybody's satisfaction level is different. For me, I see the value in trophy/achievement. It's not only a way to keep my gaming history, but a way to measure my satisfaction levels. Yes I do get the thrill of the plinking trophy sound. Yes I do get the satisfaction of unlocking Platinum trophies. Yes I do feel good when I level up on PSN. As for comparing one's stat with another, it can be interpreted both ways... The ugly way is "my penis is bigger than yours" (covered in the Bragging section). The good way is "what did he/she has that I don't have" (that's where I find more platinum trophies information :lol:). Of course, my ultimate reason for embracing trophies/achievements is that they allow me to explore games I normally won't play/touch. Good example would be Dead to Rights Retribution. I felt that game is underrated, it's really a good game.
 
[quote name='lokizz']id be more interested as to why so any kids who game talk so much shit or act like complete tools. its like theyre all so damn starved for attention they need act out online to get it.[/QUOTE]
I get so many of the people yelling/cursing/blaring their music/talking smack in games nowadays and it's SO annoying.

Thank God most developers put in a mute function on their games so I don't have to listen to people screaming at the top of their lungs or their shitty music for very long.

As for trophies I only get the ones that are typically earned by playing through a game normally. I'm not going to play a game for 1000 hours or 90 different frickin' ways just to get some lil window to pop up on my screen that screams to me saying 'Congrats loser, you took 20+ hours to get this stupid window to pop up because you have no fuckin' life.'

Yet some people will deny themselves a great gaming experience simply because the game doesn't have trophies or doesn't have many trophies. It's ridiculous.
[quote name='Serpentor']
5. Buying games cheap! Yep, just for the hell of it. This applies to a number of CAGs actually. All the player wanted to do is to be able to "jump" on the "hot deals." He/she not necessarily has to like or play the game, just the thrill of able to get the deal :)

6. Hoarding... Being able to hoard the "hot deals." The player feels like he/she scored the ultimate heist when he/she got a bunch of games the other players moaning about. It's pretty much like watching people beg :lol:

7. Flipping... Tiny little penny/dollar here and there. But it's not about that, it's about the thrill of able to flip games for a pretty coin.[/QUOTE]
:razz:
 
Panserfaust, I don't know what's your problem with trophies/achievements, but honestly i don't have problems with people just playing games (ahem like WoW, i never understood those WoW gamers, to me, they got no life other than WoW, they speak Wow, they pay to play Wow, they live in the WoW).

As you can see, we're the same species with different satisfaction needs. You go with your WoW ways and leave my trophy thirst be :)
 
It bothers me because I'm usually a very open minded person, and I understand why people enjoy a lot of activities that I personally don't enjoy myself. But I can't wrap my head around trophies and achievements.

There is no value to gain from them

They do not enhance the game your playing anymore than what you are already capable of getting out of the game yourself. If you need a trophy to persuade you to play a game more, chances are it's not a very impressive game to begin with. People played MGS games without killing a single person and they didn't need a to-do list to think of that, it just naturally seemed like a fun challenge to undertake. Now that you get a trophy for such an accomplishment, well hey, I agree -- there's no harm in that.

Problem is people do these things the other way around. The trophy must be listed first, and then and only then will they pursue the task. Whether it's enjoyable or not, the fact that a trophy is there automatically makes any task enjoyable to them. They will work, grind, hunt for flags, and be completely satisfied with the platinum they earn afterwords.

I assume most people are the former type of gamer, the ones who just play games and when trophies pop up they say, "oh, cool." But I increasingly see people who's primary incentive to gaming is to enjoy the game as long as the trophies can last them. I've seen CAGs ask about bargain bin games that are utter trash -- "does this have easy achievements? if so i think i'll bite."

The difference between chasing virtual rewards like gear, experience and notoriety in a game like WoW and chasing achievements is that WoW rewards you with content that enhances your experience, motivation to become better, to be noticed. If you prefer to spend an equal amount of time chasing a gamer score and say you get an equal amount of "game enhancement" from it, I can't say that you are wrong -- but I will say that you are very easily amused.

I just find it all incredibly interesting, to be honest.
 
They're goals to work toward. It's as simple as that. In most RPGs I wouldn't bother with sidequests much as they're not related to the story and I just wanted to beat the main story and move on to the next game. Maybe do a couple that I know have good items attached etc.

With achievements, there's that little added incentive to keep playing after seeing the credits role and knock out some sidequests to get achievements. And many of the sidequests end up being fun things to do that I wouldn't have bothered with in the past with my "beat it and move on to the next game" mentality.

Again, I don't care about what my gamer score is. It's just some silly little thing that gives you something to work toward, and I'll after some if they're fun. Most games I don't bother though, like Alan Wake. Just finished the last DLC, only achievements I got through the game and DLC where whatever ones I natually found as I don't have fun replaying games to do stuff in a certain amount of time, or without dying, or two collect hidden items etc. etc.

So for me I won't do unenjoyable tasks to get an achievement. But I will do some enjoyable tasks that I would have skipped and moved on to the next game rather than doing it previous generations.
 
I like trophies as much as I like the game itself. If I'm not having fun with a game, I don't bother to plat it. Games that I do enjoy, I look to the trophies for replay value because they can sometimes offer exploration or different ways to play the game. I couldn't tell you how many trophies or plats I have off the top of my head TBH and while I use PS3Trophies for guides, I don't have an account to track that shit lol.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']They're goals to work toward. It's as simple as that. In most RPGs I wouldn't bother with sidequests much as they're not related to the story and I just wanted to beat the main story and move on to the next game. Maybe do a couple that I know have good items attached etc.

With achievements, there's that little added incentive to keep playing after seeing the credits role and knock out some sidequests to get achievements. And many of the sidequests end up being fun things to do that I wouldn't have bothered with in the past with my "beat it and move on to the next game" mentality.

[/QUOTE]

This is what I find disturbing, that you would look at a sidequest and ask, "ok, does this have a trophy for me at the end?" Instead of naturally approaching a sidequest in a good game saying, "man i can't wait to get some hidden gear or a secret character to add to my party."

You look at game content as tasks that need to be "knocked out." Because when they aren't, there's that empty achievement that's keeping you away from 100% completion. Your enjoyment of the actual task is irrelevant to you pursuing it. But, if it "ends up" being enjoyable, well that's just icing on the cake.

People may think WoW is about as in-depth as a monkey pressing a button -- but that monkey is doing it for the banana as a reward. While the monkey next to him is pressing that same button, but is content in simply getting a thumbs up from his trainer. I don't know if I should be jealous of the monkey that's so easily satisfied, or be worried about his mental health.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']This is what I find disturbing, that you would look at a sidequest and ask, "ok, does this have a trophy for me at the end?" Instead of naturally approaching a sidequest in a good game saying, "man i can't wait to get some hidden gear or a secret character to add to my party."

You look at game content as tasks that need to be "knocked out." Because when they aren't, there's that empty achievement that's keeping you away from 100% completion. Your enjoyment of the actual task is irrelevant to you pursuing it. But, if it "ends up" being enjoyable, well that's just icing on the cake.
[/QUOTE]

It's just really no different than the way I've always played games. They're mindless time wasters I play to have fun and kill time.

Before I was playing to make progress toward the end game to wrap up the story, beat the game and move on to the next.

Before it was checking to see if sidequests had good loot, characters, unlockables etc. when deciding if it was worth veering off the main story progression. Now it's looking for those and also seeing if there's an achievement.

And enjoyment isn't irrelevant. If I'm not enjoying a game a ton, I won't bother with sidequests etc. even if they have achievements. They just give me more incentive to do some side quests that I am enjoying rather than just beating the game and moving on to the next.

But again, all that matters is having fun. Stop wasting time worrying about why others enjoy things in games that you find pointless.

I don't care about 100% completion, so I don't have that obsession to go after them. I don't have a single game at 100% as most have achievements that are things I wouldn't have fun doing. I've never gotten an achievement that was a headache for me.

They, again, just give me a tad more motivation to do some sidequests, or grab a buddy and play the Gears of War games on Insane etc. which I wouldn't have done in the past, but did because of achievements and had a lot of fun doing it.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']This is what I find disturbing, that you would look at a sidequest and ask, "ok, does this have a trophy for me at the end?" Instead of naturally approaching a sidequest in a good game saying, "man i can't wait to get some hidden gear or a secret character to add to my party."[/QUOTE]
Achievement Unlocked: 10G - Wasted your time fretting about why other people don't enjoy games in the exact same way and for the exact same reasons that you do.
 
It wouldn't just be a "tad more motivation" to do things if it's the difference between undertaking challenges that you never made time for in the past, but jumped on them when achievements were in place.

You aren't as dependent on achievements to the point where you perform tasks that are detrimental to your enjoyment of the game (like many seem to do), but they have convinced you to do tasks that previously weren't completely worth you time. You enjoy a game, but not to an extent to warrant a replay on its hardest difficulty. Playing for a thumbs up though, makes it all worthwhile.

Most people don't replay games on insane because it's naturally a massive time sink into a game you already beat, usually just with just less HP for yourself and more HP for your enemies. You like the game, but you have better things to amuse yourself with. But an achievement? Call your buddy up, because you guys have a goal to achieve.

I'd hardly credit Epic with making your task enjoyable more than I would the thumbs up you got for doing so.

[quote name='Ryuukishi']Achievement Unlocked: 10G - Wasted your time fretting about why other people don't enjoy games in the exact same way and for the exact same reasons that you do.[/QUOTE]

The OP asked for a discussion on the mentality of achievements. I'm simply expressing my view point. If we all agreed with each other this would be a very boring place. I am not saying achievement hunters are anymore wasteful of time than I am. Fun is fun. I just find it very incredible on how much achievements can effect a person's level of "fun." Try to add to the discussion if you decide to post again.

EDIT: And please, no lectures about "judging others for doing things they enjoy." I'm well aware I'm being judgmental right now.
 
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[quote name='panzerfaust']The OP asked for a discussion on the mentality of achievements. I'm simply expressing my view point. If we all agreed with each other this would be a very boring place.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. But meta-rewards that have no effect on the substance of gameplay have been around since before Mario earned 100 points for stomping a goomba and Samus Aran took off her suit if you finished Metroid quickly enough. What in your view makes achievements different? Is it the social, bragging-rights aspect that our modern online-enabled consoles bring to the table?
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']It wouldn't just be a "tad more motivation" to do things if it's the difference between undertaking challenges that you never made time for in the past, but jumped on them when achievements were in place.

You aren't as dependent on achievements to the point where you perform tasks that are detrimental to your enjoyment of the game (like many seem to do), but they have convinced you to do tasks that previously weren't completely worth you time. You enjoy a game, but not to an extent to warrant a replay on its hardest difficulty. Playing for a thumbs up though, makes it all worthwhile.

Most people don't replay games on insane because it's naturally a massive time sink into a game you already beat, usually just with just less HP for yourself and more HP for your enemies. You like the game, but you have better things to amuse yourself with. But an achievement? Call your buddy up, because you guys have a goal to achieve.

I'd hardly credit Epic with making your task enjoyable more than I would the thumbs up you got for doing so.
[/QUOTE]

Fair enough I guess. It just gets to the OP's point about the psychology of them.

They're some added incentive that in some games get me to do some things I wouldn't have before because of achievements, and I've found many of those tasks to be fun. The one's I haven't I stopped before the achievement, and I don't bother with achievements that I know I wouldn't have fun going after.

Be it taking time for sidequests in RPGs when I used to just blow through the main stories (not a huge RPG fan), using more variety of weapons due to having achievements for gettting kills with various weapons rather than sticking with a couple favorites etc., I get more out of some games now than in the past, and achievements are part of that.

The harder difficulty ones I generally don't do. Those were just excuses to replay the Gears games in co-op with some added challenge, as I loved playing those campaigns with a friend. No other games have I bothered with it as I don't generally like hard games. But it can be fun playing in split screen with a buddy pounding beers and keeping at it with the achievement as the added carrot on the stick to grind through the hard parts.

They're also a way to get more out of games. My interest in gaming has dropped and I'm only picking up 5-7 games a year now. So it's usually not the case that I'm trying for achievements while I have other games waiting to be played. It's the case that my backlog is empty, and I feel like gaming so I go do some sidequests in a game I beat and try to knock out some achievements etc.

Just like the MMORPG guys like you find reasons to keep enjoying games that are the same thing over and over for years on end. Different strokes for different folks.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']Fair enough. But meta-rewards that have no effect on the substance of gameplay have been around since before Mario earned 100 points for stomping a goomba and Samus Aran took off her suit if you finished Metroid quickly enough. What in your view makes achievements different? Is it the social, bragging-rights aspect that our modern online-enabled consoles bring to the table?[/QUOTE]

The score you earn after a level of Mario was used as a way to compare against one another (or yourself). It was competitive (unless I'm wrong there?). Being good at Mario was measured in points, but I'd hardly call modern day achievements a measure of one's gaming prowess.

Playing to earn more content like Samus Aran taking off her suit is better than any achievement because you actually get something. You admire the character and can now see her in a different way. That may be enough for some people to undertake a challenging task, and feel satisfied upon receiving their well deserved reward. I wouldn't enjoy that personally, but that's something I could understand if someone was a big enough Metroid fan.

Personally, for example, I played a ton of Smash Brothers so I could unlock more characters to use. The process itself is something I would never have bothered doing, but the reward was worth the extra effort to me. I enjoyed unlocking everyone, but I could not say it would be as fun without the carrot on the stick egging me on -- or even remotely enjoyable, really.

It's the same concept with a trophy, except that trophy is not a bonus costume, it is not a sweet new sword to use, it's not even remotely beneficial to your game experience aside from a "Hey, you did it" message. So while I very much understand our meaningless pursuit of meaningless rewards, I'm just very surprised at how meaningless of a reward someone can be convinced to play for.
 
I do get what you're saying. I much prefer doing something to unlock in game content like more characters in a fighting game etc. than to just get an achievement.

All I'm saying is psychologically it's more or less the same. A lot of why I play games (instead of watchign a movie or other hobbies I actually like more than gaming)--aside from wanting variety--is that it's goal oriented. Beat a level, unlock a character, beat a game and see what happens etc. It's not passive like movies etc, so it's a nice change of pace.

Achievements are just another goal to achieve and one more reason to keep playing--as long as the goal in question is fun to achieve. Is it as rewarding as getting in game content? No. But it's better than getting nothing. The best achievements are those that give you new game content (loot etc.) as well as some nerd points.

So I'm with you in that I don't get people who drive themselves crazy over achievements, posting all pissed off about how hard one is to get, or playing bad games to up their gamer score. But I disagree that achievements are inherently bad as they have gotten me to play a few games more thoroughly and thus end up getting more enjoyment out of them when I would have in the past.
 
Well, Panzer is right about one thing :lol: I'm easily amused :)

As long as a game has trophies/achievements, I'm good. It doesn't matter if it's crappy or motion controlled or vocal activated, as long as the trophies/achievement unlock per "normal" play (normal as in reasonable - example of unreasonable action is "hold the A button for two hours")

Besides, if you're into trophies/achievements, there are hidden jokes in them. Even if you're not into them, you can get a chuckle or two from reading the descriptions.

I don't know... I find that following trophies/achievement routes, playing the game is more fun. Of course, there are exceptions, I didn't do that with Heavy Rain. Because of that, I had to restart a 2nd playthrough (not from beginning, but fairly close).

So, there you have it, it's all up to the individuals.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']I've been thinking about this a lot this generation. There are a few behaviors I've noticed going on in myself and others, and it got me thinking. I thought it would be good to have a discussion about it here.

For the past 5 years I've been studying the behavioral side of psychology. I'm not a strict behaviorist (most aren't these days) and I can see the neurological side to behavior, but there are still a lot of behavioral principles at play this gen.

Achievements and Trophies are up first. That ding you hear when you unlock something isn't just there for fun. It's most likely there to classically condition you to the sound. You hear the noise, and instantly your behavior changes. You might become excited or relieved and not even realize it. From a behavior standpoint, the only thing I'd change (on the xbox) is to have a different sound for when friends sign on. This would prevent habituation to occur, and the link between the sound and pleasant feelings will become even stronger.

The social aspect is another interesting part. Comparing games, sharing achievements, displaying what you've played...all of it contribute to us being more social. We're social creatures by nature. The Wii seems to have the classic approach of bringing everyone together, while the PS3 and 360 recognize most people communicate digitally today. Perfect example is how much I play xbox with my old roommate. He lives about 40 minutes away, so I don't see him that often, but we play 360 at least 3 times a week. It's a social event, and it helps a company lock you into one system once you get a consistency down. It also will make people play co-op games they normally wouldn't; the social experience outweighs if the game is great or not.

One area I hadn't even considered is loss aversion. This page has a great article I found

http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2010/01/04/loss-aversion-achievements-and-trial-conversions/

Basically, by demos telling you that you COULD have earned awards/trophies/achievements, it makes you more likely to buy the product.

Now, some of you will say you don't care about achievements or trophies. You only play with random people, and all of this is bullshit. You have to remember, when something is reinforcing, it will always increase behavior. Also, what is reinforcing to me, doesn't HAVE to be reinforcing to you (in technical terms, we just call that a reward).

Analysing my own behavior, I am positively reinforced by achievements, along with the social aspects of Live, that lead me to buy most of my games on 360 (well, most likely, its not like I did a case study ;) ).

What do you guys think? Im hoping for an intelligent discussion here.

***sorry for any typos, I typed all this up on my iPad***[/QUOTE]

"That ding you hear when you unlock something isn't just there for fun. It's most likely there to classically condition you to the sound." I've been saying this for years. It's no surprise that the ding is a pleasant sound and not something dissonant.

I don't think making you addicted to achievements is a good thing though, it conditions you to buy/play more games even ones you don't enjoy, at least in some people. But most of the time I think people would also be happy to see their friend sign on, so I think most of the time that would condition them in the same way that the achievements do, making the conditioning even stronger.

Conditioning is an automatic process. It's not always a good thing.

Most of the time that stuff does make you more social, I agree. Sometimes it makes people too competitive, but much less than it does being more social.

You're wrong that people can not care about achievements or just want to play with random people. Some people see achievements as nothing more than a way to get you addicted to them and make you buy more games, or they realize they'd rather spend their time playing more games or doing other things than trying to obtain points that show A) how good they are or B) how much time they waste going after achievements, by often doing unfun things to get those points. Sometimes people want time away from their friends.

People can also reject something that is reinforcing when they ultimately view it as harmful to them, such as quitting using a drug.
 
It's not a ding, it's a plink :)

Well, for what it worth, at least the trophies made me stop supporting pirated games. And because I have to spend so much time to get the trophies, I don't have time to play other pirated games that don't have trophies/achievements. Simply because those games don't have them, duh!

See, I don't buy games without trophies and rarely play the older PS3 games without trophy supports (like VC and MGS4, never beat HS either and forget about CoD:MW). So what make you think I'm gonna waste time/bandwidth downloading pirated games :lol:

Trophies/achievements did stopped me there. So, is that a good thing for the game industry? Sure. Bad thing for me? Definitely, because I'm hooked, I have an addiction and I can't tarnish my PSN name anymore.

Hell, if they going to release trophies for the PSP games, I probably buy a lot more PSP games, the hell with CFW...
 
[quote name='J7.']"That ding you hear when you unlock something isn't just there for fun. It's most likely there to classically condition you to the sound." I've been saying this for years. It's no surprise that the ding is a pleasant sound and not something dissonant.

I don't think making you addicted to achievements is a good thing though, it conditions you to buy/play more games even ones you don't enjoy, at least in some people. But most of the time I think people would also be happy to see their friend sign on, so I think most of the time that would condition them in the same way that the achievements do, making the conditioning even stronger.

Conditioning is an automatic process. It's not always a good thing.

Most of the time that stuff does make you more social, I agree. Sometimes it makes people too competitive, but much less than it does being more social.

You're wrong that people can not care about achievements or just want to play with random people. Some people see achievements as nothing more than a way to get you addicted to them and make you buy more games, or they realize they'd rather spend their time playing more games or doing other things than trying to obtain points that show A) how good they are or B) how much time they waste going after achievements, by often doing unfun things to get those points. Sometimes people want time away from their friends.

People can also reject something that is reinforcing when they ultimately view it as harmful to them, such as quitting using a drug.[/QUOTE]

I hate to get technical but I have to correct a few things here. You're not classically conditioned to buy games. The act of buying them would be through operant learning. Unless you like to call it operant conditioning, in which case ignore what I just said ;)

I never said people can not care about achievements. I said they can view them as a reward; something you get that does not reinforce behavior. Hell, some people don't find money reinforcing and give up all their possessions and live off the land.

People cannot just reject reinforcement, they can find something more reinforcing. For example, maintaining my health is more reinforcing than smoking, therefore, I stop smoking. However, once you factor in addiction,phobias, etc it becomes harder to go through an extinction like this.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']I hate to get technical but I have to correct a few things here. You're not classically conditioned to buy games. The act of buying them would be through operant learning. Unless you like to call it operant conditioning, in which case ignore what I just said ;)

I never said people can not care about achievements. I said they can view them as a reward; something you get that does not reinforce behavior. Hell, some people don't find money reinforcing and give up all their possessions and live off the land.

People cannot just reject reinforcement, they can find something more reinforcing. For example, maintaining my health is more reinforcing than smoking, therefore, I stop smoking. However, once you factor in addiction,phobias, etc it becomes harder to go through an extinction like this.[/QUOTE]
I did not say you're classically conditioned to buy games. You're classically conditioned to equate the sound with the "achievement, the pop up, and points".

You said "some of you will say you don't care about achievements or trophies. You only play with random people, and all of this is bullshit. You have to remember, when something is reinforcing, it will always increase behavior. Also, what is reinforcing to me, doesn't HAVE to be reinforcing to you (in technical terms, we just call that a reward)."

I can not care about achievements because I do not view them as reinforcing and I also do not view them as a reward. I ignore them. I find them irritating and I also find the sound irritating now too. When I hear the sound for things other than achievements I find it annoying.
 
You said people become conditioned to buy more games.

If you're at a point where the sound of achievements irritate you, you view them as a positive punishment. Block notifications to engage in negative reinforcement. Isn't this fun?
 
[quote name='J7.']I did not say you're classically conditioned to buy games. You're classically conditioned to equate the sound with the "achievement, the pop up, and points".

You said "some of you will say you don't care about achievements or trophies. You only play with random people, and all of this is bullshit. You have to remember, when something is reinforcing, it will always increase behavior. Also, what is reinforcing to me, doesn't HAVE to be reinforcing to you (in technical terms, we just call that a reward)."

I can not care about achievements because I do not view them as reinforcing and I also do not view them as a reward. I ignore them. I find them irritating and I also find the sound irritating now too. When I hear the sound for things other than achievements I find it annoying.[/QUOTE]

The two sentences contradict each other, I think you meant to say the sound of achievements annoys you.

Well, the other side of the argument is also true by comparison. I find that playing hours of the same game and yet, not even one freaking trophy/achievement unlocks. It's freaking annoying!

Plink, ahhh, satisfying... The final plink of platinum trophy is very rewarding, enough for me to stop getting achievements and just gun for trophies.

Believe it or not, after a plink, I play harder, it's like being kissed for good luck :cool:
 
[quote name='seanr1221']You said people become conditioned to buy more games.

If you're at a point where the sound of achievements irritate you, you view them as a positive punishment. Block notifications to engage in negative reinforcement. Isn't this fun?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but I did not specify what type of conditioning, never mentioned classical or operant.

People become classically conditioned to associate this nice sound with the achievement. Getting these achievements are rewarding to most people. Rewarding because of their status as a gamer to some, and rewarding because they worked toward obtaining them. It represents their skill at whatever they were attempting in the game to get said achievement. Operant conditioning comes into play when buying a game allows one to obtain more achievements, more status, more skill in their mind. I think for some they become more conditioned to buy games based on achievements than they do for the experience of the game play and story. Scary. Of course they're going to want a game that doesn't suck, they'll still go for the best quality game, but are more interested in achievements. Probably a very small % of people though.

I dread the fact that the conditioning will get stronger when games go all digital. I'm surprised MS's cash registers at MS stores don't give the plink sound when you buy a game or that they don't pay retailers to do this, making the actual purchase of the game an achievement within itself. They could even have an achievement pop up when the title screen shows up for the first time too, "Game Purchased". Maybe we shouldn't give them such ideas.

Haha. Ya, they're positive punishment to me. :applause: At the same time though the achievements don't give me the reward I expect. I always thought they were going to reward you for your achievements by being able to use them to unlock special things like bonus items for games or convert them to MS points. If they did that I would be a big fan of achievements. I'd also love to see people's achievement scores get depleted by using their points so some of them wouldn't use their score as some sense of superiority in games.

Can you block achievement notifications? I always assumed they were forced, but then I haven't even gotten an achievement in a long time. I used to see how long I could go to avoid getting an achievement or see what the record would be for the least amount of achievements in a particular game just to spite the system. But that was playing into the hands of achievements and I put a stop to that!

[quote name='Serpentor']The two sentences contradict each other, I think you meant to say the sound of achievements annoys you.

Well, the other side of the argument is also true by comparison. I find that playing hours of the same game and yet, not even one freaking trophy/achievement unlocks. It's freaking annoying!

Plink, ahhh, satisfying... The final plink of platinum trophy is very rewarding, enough for me to stop getting achievements and just gun for trophies.

Believe it or not, after a plink, I play harder, it's like being kissed for good luck :cool:[/QUOTE]

The sound of achievements annoys me so when I hear it for other things it annoys me then too. The annoyance I get from the sound is so strong (because of what it represents to me, i.e. getting people addicted to achievements through conditioning to make more money off them) and has happened enough times that it has completely overpowered anything I hear tied to the sound that is actually rewarding.

Isn't there an enjoyment to the game there that doesn't require you to get an achievement to enjoy the game? That's the other dark side of achievements. In addition to getting you to buy and play more games, even substandard ones, they become more important sometimes then the actual game does.
 
I've always said I don't care about Achievements - but it's a lie. I'm not obsessive over them, but I'm just embarrassed at my score...

I'd definitely love if you had the ability to hide your score. It's annoying feeling people judge your gaming knowledge/ability by how many flags you've collected.

Is this the confessions thread?
 
I'd think achievements could go both ways on game sales.

For the achievement whores, yeah they buy more games as they play crap to just get more points. But that's a pretty small minority of the gamer population.

For others, they may replay games more and spend more time with each game trying to knock out some achievements etc. now. Where as before they just blew through a game, and saw the credits roll and moved onto the next game. So maybe some of those buy a few less games than before since they spend more time replaying games.
 
Achievements are for other people to look at except when you unlock items.

If the items change gameplay and make the game harder or easier it is good.

If the items serve no purpose they are just cosmetic upgrades.

For games that have achievements first I see if the game is fun, check the overall time required to finish the game, check if there are unlockable items (permanent vs temporary) , then I see if it has multiplayer (also check # of players allowed) , and finally if the achievements are required to get the unlockable items.

For me the games where you unlock items through a regular playthrough and get achievements simply for finishing are the best.

For multiplayer games if I see someone with a lot of achievements I have the assume they are better at the game than the average player.
 
One thing I do use achievements for, is to compare my profile to other's who want to be friends. If they're huge achievement junkies it's a definite no go. I've played with people who want achievements and they'll want to do stuff just to get the achievement with total disregard for playing the game itself. Like in FPS, they don't want to win the match because they're off on some part of the map screwing around. Or they don't want to play one game much because they constantly want to gain achievements daily. They'll work on a hard achievement, but then give up, and goto another game to get easier ones. When I play I usually want to focus on 1 game for a while, not flip flop every 30 minutes for achievements, and it's hard to own as many games as them and unsatisfying to play tons of games for short periods. The achievements have become the game for some people. The actual game has become like an in game item for getting the achievements, for some.

[quote name='dmaul1114']I'd think achievements could go both ways on game sales.

For the achievement whores, yeah they buy more games as they play crap to just get more points. But that's a pretty small minority of the gamer population.

For others, they may replay games more and spend more time with each game trying to knock out some achievements etc. now. Where as before they just blew through a game, and saw the credits roll and moved onto the next game. So maybe some of those buy a few less games than before since they spend more time replaying games.[/QUOTE]

I think there are more achievement junkies than you say and the amount of games they buy because of it is huge. Then there are others less addicted but still buy a lot because of it. Some people go for 360 games instead of Wii, only because of achievements. I recall someone posting they weren't getting a better game on Wii because they wanted some avg game on 360 since it had achievements. He didn't specifically state the quality, but I just recall that the difference was so significant in quality it stood out in my mind.

Agree that some probably replay games more/spend more time with some games because of achievements. And I have to applaud you for making that point. I completely overlooked that. But I think they still want to play enough other games that the people buying tons of games for achievements more than makes up for them. I hope if every company starts doing achievements one of them will give up some info about their potential effect on sales.
 
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Thought of a good example of achievements leading to more fun in a game.

The horde achievements in Gears 2 make it a lot easier to get a party of people together to play on different maps (the complete waves 1-10 achievements), try to get through all 50 waves etc. It's a lot of fun, and more people play it because of achievements.

Without those on Firefight on Halo Reach, the mode's pretty pointless other than going for daily challenges--and since the solo score attack modes count for those there's not much reason to play firefight online.

So things like that are what I see as good uses of achievements. Ways to entice people to play modes beyond the campaign and competitive multiplayer that they'd avoid before since they aren't story or competitive based.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']I've always said I don't care about Achievements - but it's a lie. I'm not obsessive over them, but I'm just embarrassed at my score...

I'd definitely love if you had the ability to hide your score. It's annoying feeling people judge your gaming knowledge/ability by how many flags you've collected.

Is this the confessions thread?[/QUOTE]

I feel completely the same way bro. :censored:
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Thought of a good example of achievements leading to more fun in a game.

The horde achievements in Gears 2 make it a lot easier to get a party of people together to play on different maps (the complete waves 1-10 achievements), try to get through all 50 waves etc. It's a lot of fun, and more people play it because of achievements.

Without those on Firefight on Halo Reach, the mode's pretty pointless other than going for daily challenges--and since the solo score attack modes count for those there's not much reason to play firefight online.

So things like that are what I see as good uses of achievements. Ways to entice people to play modes beyond the campaign and competitive multiplayer that they'd avoid before since they aren't story or competitive based.[/QUOTE]

That is a good example because it is perfectly in line with the game itself. If most achievements were that way I would be a big fan despite their negative side of at least "trying to" influence sales. Developers need to make the achievements fit their game in the right way.
 
[quote name='J7.']
The sound of achievements annoys me so when I hear it for other things it annoys me then too. The annoyance I get from the sound is so strong (because of what it represents to me, i.e. getting people addicted to achievements through conditioning to make more money off them) and has happened enough times that it has completely overpowered anything I hear tied to the sound that is actually rewarding.

Isn't there an enjoyment to the game there that doesn't require you to get an achievement to enjoy the game? That's the other dark side of achievements. In addition to getting you to buy and play more games, even substandard ones, they become more important sometimes then the actual game does.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure they can easily offer an option to turn off the sound/pop ups or turn off the trophy/achievement altogether for people don't like them. However, the percentage of players prefer such option is negligible... That is, not worth the time for them to put it in :lol:

There's a golden rule in computer programming... If not many people ask for it, don't do it. We all heard about trophy/achievement glitches (they don't affect game plays), so changes like optional trophy/achievement may affect the actual implementation. It's a wiser decision not to offer the option (piss off a few or a lot?)

I remember my earlier PS3 gaming days, there were no trophies... When I finished Uncharted 1 on easy, I never bother to touch it again. Well, that's until they put a trophy patch in. First thing I did was to get the easy ones just to see I enjoy doing it. Then next thing I realized I was gunning for CRUSHING mode :shock: That's something I never do and I felt pretty good about myself for accomplish it.
 
[quote name='Serpentor']I'm sure they can easily offer an option to turn off the sound/pop ups or turn off the trophy/achievement altogether for people don't like them. However, the percentage of players prefer such option is negligible... That is, not worth the time for them to put it in :lol:

There's a golden rule in computer programming... If not many people ask for it, don't do it. We all heard about trophy/achievement glitches (they don't affect game plays), so changes like optional trophy/achievement may affect the actual implementation. It's a wiser decision not to offer the option (piss off a few or a lot?)

I remember my earlier PS3 gaming days, there were no trophies... When I finished Uncharted 1 on easy, I never bother to touch it again. Well, that's until they put a trophy patch in. First thing I did was to get the easy ones just to see I enjoy doing it. Then next thing I realized I was gunning for CRUSHING mode :shock: That's something I never do and I felt pretty good about myself for accomplish it.[/QUOTE]
Just give me an on off switch via a 1 and 0. If they fuck that up they shouldn't be programming games to begin with. In this case since it's just an annoyance, if it was deemed to cause possible implementation problems then they can not allow to block notifications, but damnit it is annoying to have it break the immersion!

When i finished Uncharted I waited a while and replayed it on Crushing right before Uncharted 2 came out because I liked it so much and I wanted to follow the story straight into 2.
 
There is an option to turn off pop-ups. But it kills all of them, not just achievements (friends singing on, invites, message notifications etc.).
 
I don't care at all what my gamerscore or trophy collection is. I had a PS3 for 2 years and never tried to get a single trophy. Having just got an Xbox 360 that has changed. I think MS does a better job marketing their system of achivments.

Now I enjoy trying to get achivements. I think it helps me to get all I can out of some games. I have even started playing some of my older PS3 games again, just to get interesting trophies. I don't do it to display them publicly, it just gives some games added depth.

I think "trophy-whores" are ridiculous, I mean who plays a crappy game just because it has an easy platinum trophy or easy achievments! But I guess if that is how they get enjoyment out of the hobby then so be it. At least they are buying and playing which is good for all of us in the long run.
 
[quote name='Fonz72']I don't care at all what my gamerscore or trophy collection is. I had a PS3 for 2 years and never tried to get a single trophy. Having just got an Xbox 360 that has changed. I think MS does a better job marketing their system of achivments.

Now I enjoy trying to get achivements. I think it helps me to get all I can out of some games. I have even started playing some of my older PS3 games again, just to get interesting trophies. I don't do it to display them publicly, it just gives some games added depth.

I think "trophy-whores" are ridiculous, I mean who plays a crappy game just because it has an easy platinum trophy or easy achievments! But I guess if that is how they get enjoyment out of the hobby then so be it. At least they are buying and playing which is good for all of us in the long run.[/QUOTE]
Excellent point, unless they buy too many crap games. It's a toss up though. Crap game sells we get more crap, crap game doesn't sell company can go under. Every once in a while a developer puts out crap and good stuff, some start off crappy then become good at it. I guess if people are going to also buy some crappy games they should at least find them to have some redeeming value like innovation, unique game play or story, etc
 
This is getting nowhere really... What determines a good game? What is a crappy game? There are some measures to that, but ultimately, it all comes down to the individuals. To me, a good game is a game with good trophies/achievements, it's that simple. You don't have to agree with me :)

Now, once in a blue moon, there are games with good trophies/achievement and good stories/gameplays/graphics, now those games are GREAT GAMES :)
 
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