Wall Street Protesters

[quote name='Clak']I had to tell the woman in the financial aid office 3 times I didn't want the loan and only needed the grant. I finally had to get tough with her and told her I did not want the loan, did not need the loan, and that if she kept asking I'd have to talk to the director of the department.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. What kind of school? I wonder if they are in cahoots with the lender.
 
[quote name='dohdough']What you're describing is so far from the truth [...][/QUOTE]

Rosa Parks didn't refuse to move so the row would be clear for white people at the direction of the driver? Because that's about all I said on the subject and I'm pretty sure that's pretty non-disputed.
 
[quote name='Spokker']
There are no guarantees that you will get a job out of college. A major determinant of this is choice of major. http://cew.georgetown.edu/whatsitworth/

If you and I are competing for the same job, all other things being equal, I will get the job if you don't have an internship under your belt.[/QUOTE]

But as we all know, "all other things being equal" never happens. There are always other factors: proximity, relationships, access, etc. that unbalance that equations. That being said, I advocate internships, especially the paid kind (I had nearly a calendar's worth of practical experience due to internships/co-op)

[quote name='Msut77']There are plenty of people out there who would normally be working who aren't. We are talking basically every sector of the economy.



Since when?



1) Most people are 17/18 when they start.

2) Obviously most people did not realize they would be graduating into a shitty economy.



Engineers didn't always make a lot of money. There is no guarantee they will in the future.[/QUOTE]

That's a pretty bold statement about Engineers. I'd like to see any type of source that states that engineering didnt command higher pay than many other vocations. To be an engineer takes a certain talent and disposition intersection that's relatively uncommon and that scarcity leads to higher pay. I'd stake that at least since the dawn of the Nuclear Age that engineers have been making relatively 'a lot of money'.

[quote name='Msut77']I don't remember it.

I don't recall my brother doing anything like that either.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='mykevermin']I had zero counseling w/r/t student loans, fwiw.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='RedvsBlue']:rofl:

Student loan "counseling" consists of a few web pages of information and an idiot-proof quiz at the end. Attributing that, in any way, to more responsible borrowing is a joke.

Myke, you probably did the counseling but it was so inconsequential to the entire process that you completely forgot it.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure if you had a Direct Loan the 'counseling' (Illinois called it an 'Exit Interview' back in 1999) was required. They put a hold on issuing my diploma until I completed the interview. I dont remember much of it other than that it said 'You know you have to pay this money back right? RIGHT?!?'


[quote name='dmaul1114']
It's a tough situation as you have basically 18-20 year olds (by the time they decide on a major) making a big decision that will impact their future career by picking a major.

(snip)
-Colleges required provide better and more easily accessible info about the unemployment rates of recent graduates of each major, average starting salaries, salary at 5 years, 10 years etc. of graduates of each major. [/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but today's college graduates cannot claim ignorance of the average pay of their chosen major. At least, they cannot claim that the ignorance is the fault of someone else. In the 80's, maybe even early 90's, you might could make an argument. But now we have the internet. The information is out there if you simply choose to seek it. You might be able to argue that someone might not have access to the internet *before* they entered college (dubious), but I dont know of a college that doesnt offer internet access to their students. Maybe before they commit to another 10K+ for each additional year in school, they might just check the average starting an mid-career salaries of an Art History grad and see if they wouldnt be better served going a different route.

[quote name='Spokker']
On an unrelated note, there is an oil boom in North Dakota for those who looking for work. Would the Occupy protesters who are looking for work but can't find any get on a chartered bus and go there? You know, the Okies at least migrated to California. These assholes just sit in a park and bang on drums.[/QUOTE]

Now this is an interesting point. I heard some talking head mention that some (debatable) portion of the unemployment is due to skills mismatch. That is to say, there are some job openings that remain unfilled simply because either A) there arent enough people with the specialized skills needed available to work (see the country's nursing shortage) or B) there are people with the skills, but they are not in the area where the job is and are unwilling/unable to relocate.

I know some people are for example, not able to relocate cause they cant sell their house. But I wonder how many people are willing to uproot themselves (their family) and go work in a far off place to match his/herself to a job they are qualified for. Leaving your home is probably not easy for most people.
 
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[quote name='Spokker']These people were probably better off not going to college, perhaps.[/quote]

Again. Many of these people would have perfectly decent jobs if the economy were normal.

My partner went through something like this. She graduated in 2009 from law school and could only find paralegal work at $12 per hour. 100k in debt weighed down on her shoulders and she became very depressed. She felt that the world was ending and that she'll never be able to pay off her debt and that she'll default and blah blah blah. That didn't deter her from keeping at it, and she landed a job as a real attorney making real money just a year later. The economy probably delayed this by a year or so. Her fretting was for nothing.
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And if she didn't land anything? If she lost even her 12$ per hour job?


You really make it hard for someone to take you seriously.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Rosa Parks didn't refuse to move so the row would be clear for white people at the direction of the driver? Because that's about all I said on the subject and I'm pretty sure that's pretty non-disputed.[/QUOTE]
You're implying that a lone black woman decided to break the law by not leaving her seat, not for any protest or fight for social justice, but because she was tired is all anyone needs to understand about the story and you couldn't be more wrong. Now go learn about why you're wrong and try not to be an ignorant asshole.
 
[quote name='dohdough']You're implying [...][/QUOTE]

So, basically, I said nothing wrong and you're attacking me based on what you think I secretly meant to communicate via neo-con dog whistle code words instead of what I actually said.

Good to know.
 
[quote name='hostyl1']
That's a pretty bold statement about Engineers. I'd like to see any type of source that states that engineering didnt command higher pay than many other vocations. To be an engineer takes a certain talent and disposition intersection that's relatively uncommon and that scarcity leads to higher pay. I'd stake that at least since the dawn of the Nuclear Age that engineers have been making relatively 'a lot of money'.[/QUOTE]

Not all engineers are nuclear engineers.

Not all that long ago it wasn't even common for engineers to have college, they were apprenticed (again it is a broad field).

There were also slumps in certain fields when the space program wound down and the cold war ended.

Also; China, India and many former Soviet Bloc countries have surpluses of engineers it is not as if they could never be outsourced or let more immigrate here.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So, basically, I said nothing wrong and you're attacking me based on what you think I secretly meant to communicate via neo-con dog whistle code words instead of what I actually said.

Good to know.[/QUOTE]
Don't try to piss on me and tell me it's rain. We all see through your bullshit and you trying to tell me that you're not implicitly saying that indiviuals can change the world all by themselves when taking in all of your examples of bootstraps? I might have the flu, but I'm not brain dead. This isn't a new game for you and this is the kind of shit you pull when you know you've been called on your bullshit. All you need to do now is play the mimicry game and we have a bob bingo.

Neocon dog whistle code words? Do you even know what you're arguing?

And not only that, but you cynically use someone like Parks and pervert the movement to justify your dogshit ideology. Go eat a bag of dicks.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Not all engineers are nuclear engineers.[/quote]

This is your reply? Really?

Not all that long ago it wasn't even common for engineers to have college, they were apprenticed (again it is a broad field).
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You didnt make a statement about college, you made a statement about pay. Plumbers are still mostly an apprentice field, but the pay is till good.

There were also slumps in certain fields when the space program wound down and the cold war ended.
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Slowdowns in hiring in certain engineering disciplines perhaps, but their is vast crossover in skills b/w disciplines. If someone was trained as an Aero Engineer but the aerospace industry had slowed down, it wouldnt be that hard for said aero engineer to move into another engineering field like electrical. (Trust me, I have a *bit* of insight into this type of situation).

But even taking all this into account, when you group "engineers" their pay still tends to be relatively higher. Please show me when this was not true.

Also; China, India and many former Soviet Bloc countries have surpluses of engineers it is not as if they could never be outsourced or let more immigrate here.
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They've been shuffling engineering facilities offshore and doing joint work with engineers located overseas at least since the passing of NAFTA (almost twenty years now)....but still the pay has been relatively high. It has been so in the past and the relative scarcity of people with those skills suggest that it will be so in the future. I again invite you to show me when engineering pay was not relatively high. I'm sure that you cant show that at least since the 1940's (Atomic Age).
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Well I don't think anyone would complain about student loan debt (or any type of debt) being reduced or taken away! :D

But I finished with around $55k in student loan debt and I'm not begging for any reductions or anything. It was my choice to take those loans and I don't have any difficulties making the payments after consolidating and extending the repayment period.







It's a tough situation as you have basically 18-20 year olds (by the time they decide on a major) making a big decision that will impact their future career by picking a major.

At the same time, it's hard to support forgiving debts because a person's degree didn't get them a decent job.

But there are things that can be done

-Better deferment plans where interest doesn't accrue while one is unemployed to give them a chance to find a job and get on their feet without their debt getting even larger

-Colleges required provide better and more easily accessible info about the unemployment rates of recent graduates of each major, average starting salaries, salary at 5 years, 10 years etc. of graduates of each major.

Info like that would help a lot with students being able to make smart decisions about how much student loan debt is a reasonable investment relative to what they can expect to earn with their degree. It's ok to study philosophy or whatever if you're not taking out loans to do so. But if you're racking up debt, you better make a wise decision and use it to get a career that ensures you can pay the debt back--no way to be sure of that, but having such data would at least help tilt the odds in your favor as much as possible.[/QUOTE]

Amazing. An intelligent, thought out post that doesnt resort to crass name calling.

I actually agree with everything here too.

I've finally nearly paid off my loans 10 years later. Sure, I'd love it if the government "forgave" them. But I don't need, or deserve that.
I'd love it if colleges actually gave info about the unemployment/hiring rates of recent graduates before people chose their major.

(Don't you still have to meet with an academic advisor and get someone to sign off on your major?)
 
[quote name='hostyl1']This is your reply? Really?[/quote]

Some Engineering fields are more specialized and command higher pay. Shocking I know.

Slowdowns in hiring in certain engineering disciplines perhaps, but their is vast crossover in skills b/w disciplines. If someone was trained as an Aero Engineer but the aerospace industry had slowed down, it wouldnt be that hard for said aero engineer to move into another engineering field like electrical. (Trust me, I have a *bit* of insight into this type of situation).
Click to expand...

A) The same thing could be said of any number of fields. It is also possible for a lawyer to become a teacher or a doctor a chef.

B) I have *no* special insight into this except members of my family have worked in Aerospace for over three generations. If you think someone who worked on rockets for decades can transition into a different program or field that easy then I will take your word on it.

But even taking all this into account, when you group "engineers" their pay still tends to be relatively higher. Please show me when this was not true.

They've been shuffling engineering facilities offshore and doing joint work with engineers located overseas at least since the passing of NAFTA (almost twenty years now)....but still the pay has been relatively high. It has been so in the past and the relative scarcity of people with those skills suggest that it will be so in the future. I again invite you to show me when engineering pay was not relatively high. I'm sure that you cant show that at least since the 1940's (Atomic Age).
Click to expand...

Previously you mentioned you have personal connection to this topic, which is obvious since you have such a bug up your butt about the perceived attack on the noble field of engineering.

What I was stating is that engineers (depending on specialization) did not make more then say business school graduates or anyone with specialized/supervisory experience until probably the mid nineties.

In China by the way where there is no shortage of people in technical fields, our head of quality control has a degree in nuclear engineering.

She makes pretty good money, but not much more than any other college graduate with decent English.
 
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[quote name='dohdough']Don't try to piss on me and tell me it's rain. We all see through your bullshit and you trying to tell me that you're not implicitly saying that indiviuals can change the world all by themselves when taking in all of your examples of bootstraps?[/QUOTE]

Yes - this is exactly what I mean.

Like in that EXACT SAME POST where I mentioned the mother taking two jobs to take care of her children. She, also, radically transformed the world all by herself. Or something.

Or, perhaps, I simply gave to examples of how people can choose to react to the world around them. They can roll over or they can stand up (or, sit down...)

I think you're confused - you're looking past my words and seeing bull**** that you left behind.
 
The fact that people can try to make the best of the hand their dealt in life doesn't mean that we as society don't have an obligation to do every thing we can to make sure everyone gets dealt as fair a hand as possible and that the playing field is level as possible.

These aren't mutually exclusive concepts. People have an obligation to work hard and try to make the best they can of their lives. And society/the government has an obligation to make sure everyone willing to work hard can at least make a living wage and that people aren't set up to fail/be stuck in the lower class despite working hard just because they were born in a terrible neighborhood and/or born of color etc. etc.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Yes - this is exactly what I mean.

Like in that EXACT SAME POST where I mentioned the mother taking two jobs to take care of her children. She, also, radically transformed the world all by herself. Or something.

Or, perhaps, I simply gave to examples of how people can choose to react to the world around them. They can roll over or they can stand up (or, sit down...)[/quote]
How does pointing out another anecdote about a single mother with two kids change the fact that you're still pointing out that personal responsibility is still the main determining factor of where one gets in life? And if they don't get anywhere, then it's their own fault and/or tough shit. It's the same shit you're saying with Parks, this thread, and all over this forum. This isn't some isolated incident, it's your fucking m.o.

It's society's job to make sure as few people fall through the cracks as possible, but it doesn't. Arguments like "if they just did this or just did that" are worthless and that's exactly what you're trumpeting.

I think you're confused - you're looking past my words and seeing bull**** that you left behind.
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What the fuck does this even mean?
 
[quote name='dohdough']How does pointing out another anecdote about a single mother with two kids change the fact that you're still pointing out that personal responsibility is still the main determining factor of where one gets in life?[/QUOTE]

Weird. That almost is the complete opposite of this...

 
[quote name='Msut77']Again. Many of these people would have perfectly decent jobs if the economy were normal. [/quote]Then wait until the economy is normal again. Like I said, a recession delays plans. Take a lower paying job, live beneath your means, sit tight and keep trying. However, if you couldn't find a job even during good times, or if you suspect you made mistakes in regard to your major and past career decisions, you must fix the problem or realize what your lot in life is. There are plenty of people out of work who deserve to work. I also think a lot of people blame structural problems in their lives on the recession. It's an easy excuse.

And if she didn't land anything? If she lost even her 12$ per hour job?
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She would get a $10 per hour job. Then an $8 per hour job. Then she would knit shit and sell it to morons. She'll complain, but she's not going to illegally camp in a park like a child.
 
Spokker do you have money or relatives to fall back on? You do know the economy has been shit for years and it won't be better any time soon?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Some Engineering fields are more specialized and command higher pay. Shocking I know.[/quote]

And even the "least" of these fields command higher pay than an average liberal arts degree.


A) The same thing could be said of any number of fields. It is also possible for a lawyer to become a teacher or a doctor a chef.
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Lawyer to teacher may be an apt comparaion as more schooling wouldn't necessarily be required. But a lawyer and a doctor are vastly different skill sets. The difference between a Mechanical, Civil, and Aerospace engineer, in terms of schooling is minute.

B) I have *no* special insight into this except members of my family have worked in Aerospace for over three generations. If you think someone who worked on rockets for decades can transition into a different program or field that easy then I will take your word on it.
Click to expand...

Assuming your family's work was in Aerospace Engineering, they could be the first to tell you that Aerospace Engineer skills translate quite easily into Mechanical, Civil, Electrical, and Material Science applications. But then again, we werent talking about people "who worked on rockets for decades" but rather people choosing a major and just graduating. Still, in any case, an engineering degree in any field has practical multi-disiplined applications.



Previously you mentioned you have personal connection to this topic, which is obvious since you have such a bug up your butt about the perceived attack on the noble field of engineering.
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Yeah, I'm an Aerospace Engineering grad, who at 16 chose Aero, watched Pres. Clinton gut defense, ship out manufacturing via NAFTA, saw a slowdown of the space program all while in college, and shrinkage/consolidation of the aerospace industry. I work in the electrical engineering area now. Some people here have electrical, mechanical, even straight physics backgrounds. It's all pretty interchangeable.

What I was stating is that engineers (depending on specialization) did not make more then say business school graduates or anyone with specialized/supervisory experience until probably the mid nineties.
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Not until about the mid-nineties huh? I'd love to see some support of that. Engineering (B.S.) being on the same level as an MBA? I can believe that. Engineering (B.S.) being less than a doctor (Ph. D.) I can believe that. Engineering (B.S.) being on the same level of Philosophy/Music/History/Leasuire Studies as recently as the early 80's even? Nah, dont buy it at all without a cite.

But I'll let you have the last word on the subject if you wish. I'm just glad I got you to nail down a timeframe so I at least know that, outside of historical evidence I can evaluate your claim for what it was worth.

In China by the way where there is no shortage of people in technical fields, our head of quality control has a degree in nuclear engineering.

She makes pretty good money, but not much more than any other college graduate with decent English.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='Msut77']Spokker do you have money or relatives to fall back on?[/quote]I do have savings.

Like most people, I have family, yes. Fall back on? I haven't analyzed it quite like that. There aren't many scholars in that bunch. They are just working class people.

I wonder how many of the Occupy protesters, the younger ones, would be okay if they just go the fuck home and stop being unreasonable about their parents disapproval of the shit they want to put in their lower lip. Someone should have figured out what the girl in the bear suit's story was all about. I think her interaction with the asshole from Opie and Anthony in this video is telling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQlYC8Yjirc&t=1m6s

Both parents killed in a car crash? Free pass. But just playing the odds, probably not.

You do know the economy has been shit for years and it won't be better any time soon?
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There have been recessions before and there will be recessions in the future. Short-term economic fluctuations can make life painful today, but think long term.

In aggregate, it has been getting better. Or, not getting worse. Economists think next year will be better, but it will be a slow recovery.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/11/21/5-reasons-the-economy-will-be-better-in-2012

Individual results may vary depending on individual choices made.
 
[quote name='Spokker']I do have savings.

Like most people, I have family, yes. Fall back on? I haven't analyzed it quite like that. There aren't many scholars in that bunch. They are just working class people.

I wonder how many of the Occupy protesters, the younger ones, would be okay if they just go the fuck home and stop being unreasonable about their parents disapproval of the shit they want to put in their lower lip. Someone should have figured out what the girl in the bear suit's story was all about. I think her interaction with the asshole from Opie and Anthony in this video is telling.

Both parents killed in a car crash? Free pass. But just playing the odds, probably not.

There have been recessions before and there will be recessions in the future. Short-term economic fluctuations can make life painful today, but think long term.

In aggregate, it has been getting better. Or, not getting worse. Economists think next year will be better, but it will be a slow recovery.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/11/21/5-reasons-the-economy-will-be-better-in-2012

Individual results may vary depending on individual choices made.[/QUOTE]

Jesus, could you possibly find any broader strokes to rely on. The generalizations you've made in this post alone...
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']Jesus, could you possibly find any broader strokes to rely on. The generalizations you've made in this post alone...[/QUOTE]Generalizations do not lose their explanatory power just because there are exceptions. There are a lot of runaways in New York that adapted to street life because they were too stubborn to listen to their parents and there are a lot who had legitimate reasons to leave.

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=18275

Abuse is a legit reason, though there are better options than running away. Running away because your parents don't like that you are gay and don't want you fucking your boyfriend's ass in the house is not a good reason. The rational thing to do would be to use their resources to become independent and then get away from them.

The question I would ask is, did you leave because you were getting the shit beaten out of you every day, or did you leave because of microaggressions? There's a huge difference.
 
[quote name='Spokker']Generalizations do not lose their explanatory power just because there are exceptions. [/QUOTE]

wat
 
[quote name='Msut77']Short term my ass.[/QUOTE]Short-term and long-term are not strictly defined terms. Usually short-term is defined relative to long-term. In the long-term, we are all dead.

Anyway, I know what your rap is, and I get it, but it's wrongheaded in my opinion. Appealing to pity may not be the best strategy. It's the old, "You don't know what it's like!" trip. Actually, a lot of people arguing about this stuff do know what it's like and their actions and attitude is usually what determines how they get through it. Instead of appealing to pity it may actually be more worthwhile to listen to the person who is better off (has money in the bank, has family, has a good paying job he got right out of college, etc.) and learn a thing or two. I'm not saying you have to sit there and listen to the Walton's nonsense, but consider the advice of those who have done better than you.

Yeah, I have some money to fall back on because I saved it. I have some family that may help me if I'm in real trouble because I didn't burn every goddamn bridge with them by being a completely obstinate prick. And I'll help my family if they need it to the best of my ability.

I have it better than a lot of people and a lot of people have it better than me. It has very little to do with who is right and wrong about these dumb issues.
 
I honestly believe you just never thought about any of the implications of what you say and you can't even imagine what it's like to do with out. This fucking Scrooge wannabe BS irks me but I actually pity you more.
 
[quote name='Strell']wat[/QUOTE]To illustrate this point, I'll cite one prominent scholar on this issue. "Stereotypes that aren't right never stick." (Corolla, 2010).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG1hI8rQH4g

People tend to engage in herding behavior. Essentially, they share similarities in their thinking and this is often correlated with the group they belong to. Therefore, generalizing about these groups is not unreasonable. The issue is usually whether the generalization is hurtful to say out loud, not whether or not it's true.
 
You could have at least tried to pick a comedian with a known educational pedigree, and not just the flavor of the week outspoken angry dood who made headlines recently.

That first tactic probably would have fooled me for a bit. Hint: Conan O' Brien went to Harvard.
 
[quote name='Strell']You could have at least tried to pick a comedian with a known educational pedigree, and not just the flavor of the week outspoken angry dood who made headlines recently.[/quote]He has had the most downloaded podcast for quite some time now. He has been talking about these same topics for years and didn't change his views to get press.

That first tactic probably would have fooled me for a bit. Hint: Conan O' Brien went to Harvard.
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Conan O'Brien tends to shy away from politics and social issues. As a fan, I'll go to him when I want to know the issues related to masturbating animals and canned celebrity interviews. Only recently has Conan entered this arena, possibly due to fledgling ratings.

If you really want to talk about struggle and privilege, though, the struggle goes to Carolla and the privilege goes to Conan, though Conan worked his ass off and where he comes from is largely irrelevant. But if we're thinking like Msut77 terms, I'm not sure what there is to admire about Conan. He could have always fallen back on his physician doctor and attorney mother.
 
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Most downloaded podcasts = scholarly.

That's a generalization.

Oh but you consider those factual. Darn. Argument done. How could I refute that? By the way, I have a pair of sunglasses right now, and I've never been attacked by the Mongolian Horde. Coincidence? Certainly not - I've let four other people wear these glasses and they too report no Genghis Khan dismemberings. Gosh, we should release a scientific journal.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Or we can take from the top and shift it to the bottom like I've consistantly been saying for years. Btw, it sounds like now you're the one subscribing to the gold-backed currency lunacy aka zero sum.

The problem is actually capitalism, but let's not get into that right now.[/QUOTE]

But it's nigh impossible to do that through policy, we'd need a radical shift in the culture which simply isn't going to happen. About all that could be done through policy would be some sort of jobs training that would get people in economically depressed areas involved locally. For instance (and this is terribly simplified but I imagine you'll get the larger picture), take "shiftless ghetto youth" and put them in electrician and plumbing apprenticeships. The key here is they get paid as opposed to a non-paid internship kind of deal. Trade Unions could get a huge boon from this mind you. So they learn the skill that is needed in the area since "the projects" are run down and crappy. Once they've earned their certifications and all that, they go in and fix what needs fixing. This creates that community helping each other out as well as gets the buildings fixed (up to and hopefully beyond code), puts money in the pockets of the workers and has the building owners pay the invoices (so I suppose that is your top down in a certain way) and most importantly puts some hope into the area. "Hey everyone, we can do this if we work together as opposed to work against each other" could be the motto or whatever. Now, we've got certified labour that is getting shit done in the repressed/depressed areas and they can move their business outwards. Then they've got to hire accountants and such if they start a business (contract or enterprise, either way really) and I could go on for a few more paragraphs about how this builds the foundation at the bottom to have that good ol' upwards mobility.
Take the same scenario for rural areas and make the shiftless youth (you know, the ones that are equally into Garth Brooks and ICP) go into machinist type trades to fix the tractors and silos and whatnot out there. Essentially recreate that industrial era post WWII but now with the EPA to make sure we don't get arsenic in the water supply.

Nah, I'm not going for zero sum because it isn't a reality anymore.

Not capitalism so much as complacency and hyper-capitalism with the wrong barometers for success (i.e. GDP instead of median income).
 
[quote name='Strell']Most downloaded podcasts = scholarly.[/QUOTE]You probably should have picked up on the fact that my in-line citing of Carolla using the APA standard was somewhat of a joke.

But, as he said, try to take a generalization that isn't true and try to make it stick.
 
[quote name='Spokker']People tend to engage in herding behavior. Essentially, they share similarities in their thinking and this is often correlated with the group they belong to. Therefore, generalizing about these groups is not unreasonable. The issue is usually whether the generalization is hurtful to say out loud, not whether or not it's true.[/QUOTE]

So you lumped yourself into the herd mentality of GOP fear-mongers and decided to be ok with it? Fair enough.
 
[quote name='nasum']So you lumped yourself into the herd mentality of GOP fear-mongers and decided to be ok with it? Fair enough.[/QUOTE]I don't think I'm talking about fear much here. Reading my posts, they tend to be fairly optimistic about the future and that people have some power to direct their futures as they see fit. Other people are talking about how the economy will never recover and there's no hope and there's nothing anyone, including themselves, can do.

But to answer the question, I am unlikely to be immune to herd behavior. I doubt anyone is at some level. A lot of our boom and bust economy is caused by information cascades and herd mentality. I think it's just a facet of human nature.
 
[quote name='nasum']But it's nigh impossible to do that through policy, we'd need a radical shift in the culture which simply isn't going to happen. About all that could be done through policy would be some sort of jobs training that would get people in economically depressed areas involved locally. For instance (and this is terribly simplified but I imagine you'll get the larger picture), take "shiftless ghetto youth" and put them in electrician and plumbing apprenticeships. The key here is they get paid as opposed to a non-paid internship kind of deal. Trade Unions could get a huge boon from this mind you. So they learn the skill that is needed in the area since "the projects" are run down and crappy. Once they've earned their certifications and all that, they go in and fix what needs fixing. This creates that community helping each other out as well as gets the buildings fixed (up to and hopefully beyond code), puts money in the pockets of the workers and has the building owners pay the invoices (so I suppose that is your top down in a certain way) and most importantly puts some hope into the area. "Hey everyone, we can do this if we work together as opposed to work against each other" could be the motto or whatever. Now, we've got certified labour that is getting shit done in the repressed/depressed areas and they can move their business outwards. Then they've got to hire accountants and such if they start a business (contract or enterprise, either way really) and I could go on for a few more paragraphs about how this builds the foundation at the bottom to have that good ol' upwards mobility.
Take the same scenario for rural areas and make the shiftless youth (you know, the ones that are equally into Garth Brooks and ICP) go into machinist type trades to fix the tractors and silos and whatnot out there. Essentially recreate that industrial era post WWII but now with the EPA to make sure we don't get arsenic in the water supply.

Nah, I'm not going for zero sum because it isn't a reality anymore.

Not capitalism so much as complacency and hyper-capitalism with the wrong barometers for success (i.e. GDP instead of median income).[/QUOTE]
I disagree that it can't be accomplished through policy. There are always ways around it like stricter building codes, higher tax rates at the top, and various other things that would mostly affect the rich/weathly/whatever. Your problematic terminology aside, your ideas aren't horrible. I'd also add federally subsidized loans instead of private to counteract some institutional racism.

[quote name='Spokker']You probably should have picked up on the fact that my in-line citing of Carolla using the APA standard was somewhat of a joke.

But, as he said, try to take a generalization that isn't true and try to make it stick.[/QUOTE]
Actually, stereotypes are created by those that control the dominant narrative to keep people oppressed. Unfortunately I spent 6 minutes listening to the entire clip and the watermelon vs the lazy stereotype being more/less hurtful is inane because they're both demeaning whose origins to slavery and immediate "post" slavery eras. I can break down every other exmaple in that clip as well, so your framework of generalizations that reinforce dominant narratives falls flat here and everywhere else.
 
I'm thinking what nasum meant is that it's impossible to implement those kind of policies--not that it's impossible to develop them.

Some can probably be done. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like there will ever be enough support to significantly raise taxes on higher brackets for the long haul, or any major programs that redistribute wealth from the top to the bottom.

I'm 100% supportive of such programs, but I just don't see the political climate in this country ever shifting enough that we can see any major movement in that direction. It just goes against the capitalist dogma that's been engrained in our culture.
 
[quote name='Spokker']I don't think I'm talking about fear much here. Reading my posts, they tend to be fairly optimistic about the future and that people have some power to direct their futures as they see fit. Other people are talking about how the economy will never recover and there's no hope and there's nothing anyone, including themselves, can do.

But to answer the question, I am unlikely to be immune to herd behavior. I doubt anyone is at some level. A lot of our boom and bust economy is caused by information cascades and herd mentality. I think it's just a facet of human nature.[/QUOTE]
Herd mentality and human nature? Those are some seriously abstract concepts there. You don't think it has anything to do with the power elite leveraging as much capital as they can to manipulate markets into that boom and bust cycle? These things don't happen "naturally" as capital is leveraged in a purposeful manner every second of the day. There was a period of time when there wasn't a boom or bust cycle. Care to take any guesses as to when or why?
 
[quote name='dohdough']I disagree that it can't be accomplished through policy. There are always ways around it like stricter building codes, higher tax rates at the top, and various other things that would mostly affect the rich/weathly/whatever. Your problematic terminology aside, your ideas aren't horrible. I'd also add federally subsidized loans instead of private to counteract some institutional racism.


[/QUOTE]

Problem with higher taxes on the rich is that it doesn't prevent them from hoarding in the first place, kind of encourages it to a point. Wealth gap doesn't really close since you're dealing with income and the income gap doesn't close much either since you're not addressing income, just the taxes after the fact.

I suppose the best policy would be some manner of encouraging profit sharing (special subcategory for taxation if your corp is organized as that as opposed to sub chapter S, LLC, etc...) within an organization such that even your night crew gets a cut in the end.

Simply having better building codes doesn't address the problem either since you can hire Joe Suburbs to come in and do the work, thus keeping the economically re/depressed in the same state. Going from within serves a better purpose for all parties.

Problematic terminology? I don't know man, shiftless isn't really all that bad given the apathy. You'll note that I attributed it equally to rural and urban kids...
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm thinking what nasum meant is that it's impossible to implement those kind of policies--not that it's impossible to develop them.

Some can probably be done. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like there will ever be enough support to significantly raise taxes on higher brackets for the long haul, or any major programs that redistribute wealth from the top to the bottom.

I'm 100% supportive of such programs, but I just don't see the political climate in this country ever shifting enough that we can see any major movement in that direction. It just goes against the capitalist dogma that's been engrained in our culture.[/QUOTE]
I totally get the mind experimental-ness of the scenario, but I disagree that it's impossible to implement such measures. It would take a few more accelerationist measures to do quickly, but they same arguments were made in the Gilded Age. But like I said, things will have to get a lot worse before they get better.
 
[quote name='Strell']wat[/QUOTE]

You may as well have just quoted the entire post because the whole thing is a big ol' helpin' of what the fuck.
 
[quote name='Spokker']You probably should have picked up on the fact that my in-line citing of Carolla using the APA standard was somewhat of a joke.

But, as he said, try to take a generalization that isn't true and try to make it stick.[/QUOTE]

In other words you're trying to pull the old "Haha it was a joke but not really"

This is a dumbass conversation but I'll indulge you. Easy one - how about the stereotype that people who wear turbans are Muslim. Most are actually Sikh and some are even Christian.

Boom done. Now can you quit being a dumbass?
 
[quote name='nasum']Problem with higher taxes on the rich is that it doesn't prevent them from hoarding in the first place, kind of encourages it to a point. Wealth gap doesn't really close since you're dealing with income and the income gap doesn't close much either since you're not addressing income, just the taxes after the fact.[/quote]
The only thing you can really do about the wealth gap is reinstating an estate tax. A big one.

I suppose the best policy would be some manner of encouraging profit sharing (special subcategory for taxation if your corp is organized as that as opposed to sub chapter S, LLC, etc...) within an organization such that even your night crew gets a cut in the end.
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Sounds kinda like a co-op.

Simply having better building codes doesn't address the problem either since you can hire Joe Suburbs to come in and do the work, thus keeping the economically re/depressed in the same state. Going from within serves a better purpose for all parties.
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Yup...that's why I said to couteract some institutional racism as opposed to being problem free. But you also said fixing the projects so I assume it would be implied that as much work would come from the neighborhood if possible.

Problematic terminology? I don't know man, shiftless isn't really all that bad given the apathy. You'll note that I attributed it equally to rural and urban kids...
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Rural meaning white and urban meaning black. It's problematic and brings it's own baggage that we don't need to get into here.

Either way, I'm cold meds right now, so don't ecpect me to be as sharp as usual...heh:drool:
 
ridin the Q train eh?

I don't see how having better outlets and plumbing absolves institutional racism? Either way, I think that's just one of our semantic differences that could go on forever despite actually agreeing on the large-scale issue.

A co-op isn't quite the same as a profit sharing enterprise since outsiders can invest in a co-op. Similar though, just "employee owned" as opposed to investor owned with equal payout based on share ownership (with public ability to invest in shares). I.E. you get $1.50 per share but one person can own 40 shares while another owns 6 thus not an equal payout in nominal terms but an equal payout per share. There's some hippie bread company that does the employee owned thing and they're actually fairly succesful, though they have very limited distribution channels.

An estate tax is only marginally effective, especially if the income is still available. Basically, you could put 50% on the Waltons, but they still have so many shares of WM stock that it's almost pointless since they'll be right back there within a few years. Not saying it isn't a good thing, but there needs to be a floor of $X to ensure that regular folks like us don't get hammered to prove a point to the Waltons of the world. I'd say an estate valuation of $2 million would be fairly decent (mind you the estate value of "the family farm" would be huge based on assets and land value, even if it doesn't generate a huge profit) for a floor. Especially since the people you're targeting have estates worth significantly larger than that.

I only stipulated urban and rural to show that it can work across the spectrum. This way the goon squad can't call it racially preferred handouts because Obama is a Pinko-Muslim extremist hell bent on destroying Murka...
 
[quote name='camoor']
This is a dumbass conversation but I'll indulge you. Easy one - how about the stereotype that people who wear turbans are Muslim. Most are actually Sikh and some are even Christian.
[/QUOTE]
There's also the Muslim stereotype of the black man who went to jail and found Islam. They eventually wear suits and bow ties. Again, the issue isn't that there isn't any truth to it. The issue is whether you should notice it or not.
 
[quote name='dohdough']You don't think it has anything to do with the power elite leveraging as much capital as they can to manipulate markets into that boom and bust cycle?[/QUOTE]I think it has more to do with people talking on the telephone, or sending telegraphs, or emailing each other or whatever form of direct interpersonal communication you can think of. That someone else is buying a stock or otherwise making an investment sends a signal. It's a piece of information. It could be useful or it could be dangerous, but people act on that signal. We aren't totally independent thinkers.

There was some study done on individual investors where they asked them what first drew their attention to the last company they invested in. Only 6% said they read about it in some newspaper or magazine. The vast majority said they heard about the company from some guy they knew. Then the stock becomes hot or cold and the rest is history.

This is part of the reason we have the Securities and Exchange Commission, because people talk to each other all the fucking time. We love it. We evolved to do it. It's part of our nature. It's not even a bad thing, but it's the reality of our entire existence. We have short-term bitching (Netflix stock drop) and long-term bitching (consumer confidence index). People panic, that panic spreads, market drops, and then people start to form their own information and calm down and the market adjusts up a little to reflect the true severity of whatever made people panic. It happens all the time.

I would love to hear about the power elite, but I don't know if I'm going to agree that it's quite as sinister as that. It isn't just the power elite getting in on all this nonsense. You know who were the among those implicated in the IBM insider trading thing in 1995? A secretary, a beeper salesman, a computer technician, a pizza chef, a banker, an electrical engineer, a dairy wholesaler, a teacher, a gynecologist, an attorney and four stockbrokers. That's some group.

Anyway, there are a ton of reasons why there are booms and busts, but herd behavior in good times and contagion in bad times are big deals. I mean, gosh, look at how fast panic swept through the East Asian nations that one time. It was the most gnarly Spring Break ever.
 
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[quote name='dohdough']Actually, stereotypes are created by those that control the dominant narrative to keep people oppressed.[/QUOTE]
Actually, we created our own stereotypes on the playground. The power dominant privileged patriarchy didn't get us by the collar and tell us to notice differences among race, class and gender. We did it all on our own by being smart and observant little fuckers. There's usually no hate in it, despite beliefs to the contrary.
 
[quote name='Spokker']There's also the Muslim stereotype of the black man who went to jail and found Islam. They eventually wear suits and bow ties. Again, the issue isn't that there isn't any truth to it. The issue is whether you should notice it or not.[/QUOTE]

Huh? The truth doesn't matter, only our perceptions? Is that what you're saying?

[quote name='Spokker']You know who were the among those implicated in the IBM insider trading thing in 1995? A secretary, a beeper salesman, a computer technician, a pizza chef, a banker, an electrical engineer, a dairy wholesaler, a teacher, a gynecologist, an attorney and four stockbrokers. That's some group.[/QUOTE]

Don't you think the unusual circumstances are why these folks got caught? There's a reason that you don't see too many multi-billionaires who have the occupation of a secretary, a beeper salesman, a computer technician, a pizza chef, a banker, an electrical engineer, a dairy wholesaler, a teacher, or a gynecologist.

[quote name='Spokker']Actually, we created our own stereotypes on the playground. The power dominant privileged patriarchy didn't get us by the collar and tell us to notice differences among race, class and gender. We did it all on our own by being smart and observant little fuckers. There's usually no hate in it, despite beliefs to the contrary.[/QUOTE]

Give me a break. You think all of that was original? That as a kid you didn't pick up the stereotypes of your parents and teachers?

I grew up in a foreign country and was on the receiving end of stereotyping. Believe me it's all bullshit especially in childhood.
 
[quote name='Spokker']Short-term and long-term are not strictly defined terms.[/QUOTE]

No shit.

Short and Tall are relative as well, but I would think of you the same way if you said 7 foot tall is short.
 
[quote name='camoor']Huh? The truth doesn't matter, only our perceptions? Is that what you're saying?[/quote]No, the truth does matter in that the vast majority of stereotypes are based in some truth, even if exaggerated. The controversy is whether or not one should voice that they notice them.

Don't you think the unusual circumstances are why these folks got caught? There's a reason that you don't see too many multi-billionaires who have the occupation of a secretary, a beeper salesman, a computer technician, a pizza chef, a banker, an electrical engineer, a dairy wholesaler, a teacher, or a gynecologist.
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The point of the story is that the secretary discovered the information while copying something, told one person, and it spread in interesting ways across many different occupations and classes. The story illustrates the power of communication.

Give me a break. You think all of that was original? That as a kid you didn't pick up the stereotypes of your parents and teachers?
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Sure, some things are learned, but the great thing about children is that they lack tact and will point out things that adults have been conditioned not to point out. This is well known. When alone, children are little bastards and talk shit all the time, and this comes naturally. That was the entire vision of the show South Park.

I grew up in a foreign country and was on the receiving end of stereotyping. Believe me it's all bullshit especially in childhood.
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I didn't grow up in a foreign country and was on the receiving end of stereotyping. Unless they are bashing your brains out, grow a thicker skin when it comes to playground-like bullshitting.
 
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