Wall Street Protesters

[quote name='eldergamer']The campers in Occupy Portland (who the city still supports!) (Why?) decided to move one of their camps from the downtown/business/govt district to...

The Pearl. Which is somewhat affluent and full of high-rise condos. To protest. Uhm, something. (The occupy person they interviewed the next day said he was glad they got their message out, and they want to take it to all the pepole of Portland.)



Mayor Adams said that unlike Chapman and Lownsdale squares, which are downtown amid government buildings and larger businesses, Jamison Square is surrounded by mostly residential properties and a few street-level businesses. He said Jamison was targeted because it's in the heart of the city's affluent Pearl District, yet there are five subsidized-living apartment buildings within four blocks of the park.


So, I still don't get what they wanted. Did they want the peple living in condos to just give up their homes, and hand over the keys to the occupiers?
The people who live there are rich, but they're definately not the super rich 1% mega-millionares.
The whole Occupy/Protest thing is just so scattershot and clueless.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/10/portland_police_arrest_25_occu.html[/QUOTE]
If that is what you think, you haven't been paying attention.

[quote name='panzerfaust']are there any historical references to the current situation in the U.S. that can be reflected on here? i ask out of sheer curiosity.[/QUOTE]
Why yes! I'm glad you asked! You only need to look to the 1920's in regards to wealth inequality as well as the labor movement of that time. If you're talking about war, then the propaganda from WW2 is a good reference in regards to turning a "pacifist" nation into a war-mongering one. If you're referring to delegitimization of the Occupy movements, then the history of labor movements and social movements are also good references.

What we're seeing today isn't something new, but it's something that happens whenever the power elite try to get the last bits of wealth from everyone below them. If things don't change, it'll only turn bloody.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Yeah, pretty much. If what Occupy Wallstreet is asking for has worked in the past in similar situations.[/QUOTE]
The closest analog then would probably be Shay's rebellion, however I would say early labor movements in the 1910's are also similar to the present day situation. Some have ended in failure some have gotten some of their demands. However as a general note many were followed by bad times. Most notably the arrest of the members and executions of members of Shays rebellion, or a starting point for the Red Scare in the 1910's and 20's thanks to the Bolshevik Revolution and the members in the US being apart of the general protests.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']The closest analog then would probably be Shay's rebellion, however I would say early labor movements in the 1910's are also similar to the present day situation. Some have ended in failure some have gotten some of their demands. However as a general note many were followed by bad times. Most notably the arrest of the members and executions of members of Shays rebellion, or a starting point for the Red Scare in the 1910's and 20's thanks to the Bolshevik Revolution and the members in the US being apart of the general protests.[/QUOTE]
The only thing I'd add to this is that most of them failed. Otherwise, it's pretty accurate.:cry:
 
I know dohdoh and many others get angry when people say that these people are hippies.....but again here is another example of it and why many people still hate these OWS people.

Colbert Report last night had an interview with two members of the movement that were sent by the media section of the movement because they thought they were good reps. So again this is people OWS sent to rep them not two random crazies pulled out of the crowd. During the interview the girl(who just happened to be wearing giant hipster glasses)reffered to herself as a "female bodied person" because she was not just a female but a female who recognizes herself as female. She complained that others out there are born in bodies they dont feel are their own so its uncomfortable for them to have to say they are simply male or female.

The average American sees something like that and they not only do not want to join that movement but they want to be against what its for. fuck im an ultra liberal and I want to punch those god damn kids in the face!

Dont get me wrong I think trans gender kids take a lot of shit and more needs to be done to make sure they are being treated with the same respect as everyone else. That said though your movement is named OWS not the lets change the world campaign. I have seen posts from all sorts of groups like foodies who are joining the movement to make their issue heard(in the case of the foodies its how unlike food our food has become). It just seems that in addition to the massive number of hippies there are all these other groups flooding in trying to make their issues heard and hippies being hippies must then include it and be tolerant.

I want to change our food system, I believe in tolerance of all people, I believe Church and State should be seperate and I believe that more needs to be done to bring minorities above the poverty line. However I also as an intelligent adult can recognize that the more issues you tack on and the more ultra left wing politically correct you become the more your movement is going to lose its voice and more important the harder it will be to implement any type of change.

Edit - I just wanted to add that I think now is the time to protest, now is the time for change. If you are someone that has an issue you feel must be heard...GOOD! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! We need more protests, we need more people standing up and saying enough and making their voices heard. However I think there are better ways to go about it then to just amass in one place and try and all shout for change and list a billion complaints. The foodies should be protesting in front of grocery stores like Walmart or corporations like Monsanto. The transgender kids in front of schools or the places they are taking the most shit. I am not against these people fighting to make their voice heard, I am against them leaching on to another giant movement that could accomplish something if they solidified as one voice over a handful of issues(even if they are broad like general corruption).
 
Meh, the teabaggers have done it too and it seems to be working for them. What started out being about taxes has morphed into being anti-government, anti-immigration, anti anything that isn't a conservative ideal basically. I think the difference is that they don't really care if you agree with them or not, the OWS folks are actually trying to get people to see things their way, that's their mistake.
 
[quote name='Clak']Meh, the teabaggers have done it too and it seems to be working for them. What started out being about taxes has morphed into being anti-government, anti-immigration, anti anything that isn't a conservative ideal basically. I think the difference is that they don't really care if you agree with them or not, the OWS folks are actually trying to get people to see things their way, that's their mistake.[/QUOTE]

Yes but there are two big problems. First off the Teabaggers focused on anti goverment/bail out/healthcare thing for a long time before just morphing in to a anything the right says is right is right movment. Second the reason that happened is because they were manipulated by the ultra rich of their party. They were bought and sold by the Koch brothers and others like them. OWS is letting this happen to themselves.

Another important thing is that OWS is not seeing itself as a political movement. They are not backing candidates nor putting forth candidates of their own. Thus they will accomplish nothing where as the Tea Party at least go involved in the political system.
 
And as soon as they get involved in politics it's over. Then the money starts flowing, and it's just a left wing tea party.
 
I disagree. If nothing else they should at least be aware and pushing people to vote for related issues. For instance I would think that the OWS crowd would get behind Ohio Bill 2 which limits collective bargaining.

Politics isnt evil, its just been made that way.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Politics isnt evil, its just been made that way.[/QUOTE]

Yea, but neither is communism, until made that way. You try convincing the population of that view.
 
[quote name='elessar123']Yea, but neither is communism, until made that way. You try convincing the population of that view.[/QUOTE]

My Uncle looked like he was mad enough to punch me in the face when I said that at a family event once.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Yes but there are two big problems. First off the Teabaggers focused on anti goverment/bail out/healthcare thing for a long time before just morphing in to a anything the right says is right is right movment. Second the reason that happened is because they were manipulated by the ultra rich of their party. They were bought and sold by the Koch brothers and others like them. OWS is letting this happen to themselves.

Another important thing is that OWS is not seeing itself as a political movement. They are not backing candidates nor putting forth candidates of their own. Thus they will accomplish nothing where as the Tea Party at least go involved in the political system.[/QUOTE]

The tea party was always that movement that thought the right was always correct. They were just cons who didn't like war. I disagree with your assessment on how the ultrarich corrupted the party. One thing I always found interesting about the tp movement, and for that matter any protest/revolution that uses media and has a pointed message of demands and grievances, is that these movements are many times not commoditized by the media, but rather the act of the these groups using the media and shaping the message in the way you want them to has lead intrinsically to these groups losing their focus and being co opted by the groups they want to change. In effect the movement you are praising was packaged and sold to you before it even began.

[quote name='MSI Magus']I disagree. If nothing else they should at least be aware and pushing people to vote for related issues. For instance I would think that the OWS crowd would get behind Ohio Bill 2 which limits collective bargaining.

Politics isnt evil, its just been made that way.[/QUOTE]

I think in this situation you are missing the forest from the trees here. If they had a list of demands who do they give them too? The central unifying theme among all the protests is that they have no representation and the system is rigged, so why would they be keen to make a pointless list that politicians and those they are protesting would just disregard and use as a lynchpin to dismantle the movement. Personally I think if the movement had your mindset it would just lend it self to being captured by the elites and it betrays a sense of optimism people have that their representatives will listen to them.

Edit- as an aside I would like to put forth the idea that the main demand the protesters have is already staring you in the face, namely that they want to occupy wall street. I would say the best way to understand their demands is to look at it through protesting the politics of space and not of policy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='MSI Magus']I know dohdoh and many others get angry when people say that these people are hippies.....but again here is another example of it and why many people still hate these OWS people.

Colbert Report last night had an interview with two members of the movement that were sent by the media section of the movement because they thought they were good reps. So again this is people OWS sent to rep them not two random crazies pulled out of the crowd. During the interview the girl(who just happened to be wearing giant hipster glasses)reffered to herself as a "female bodied person" because she was not just a female but a female who recognizes herself as female. She complained that others out there are born in bodies they dont feel are their own so its uncomfortable for them to have to say they are simply male or female.[/QUOTE]
Well let's break this down so that you have a better understanding of what she's saying then.

She's addressing socially constructed perceptions of gender, gender roles, and gendered appearances. When Colbert asked if she was marginalized in broader society, the answer is yes because we exist in a hierarchal patriarchy ie sexist society and she's a woman. How this plays into transgendered communities is that we socially persecute people because they don't match what our socially constructed views of what a male and female should be. This could also be applied to race, sexual orientation, and other things. While it sounds like "psycho-babble," this is pretty much the cutting edge of social sciences even though it's been around for decades. To sum up: she's saying that she recognizes that because of what society thinks a woman should "be," people will treat her as such even if she defines herself differently like having many sexual partners, work in male dominated occupations, or any other mix of identities.

The average American sees something like that and they not only do not want to join that movement but they want to be against what its for. fuck im an ultra liberal and I want to punch those god damn kids in the face!
Click to expand...
Hahaha...you're not really an ultra-liberal. You may lean to the left on neo-liberalism, but at heart, neo-liberalism is a conservative ideology.

Also, judging those two on a 7 minute clip spliced out of a 2 hour conversation is kinda dumb if you think about it. Sure, he's there to mock them, but as a so-called liberal, you're supposed to use your brains to critically examine these things.

Dont get me wrong I think trans gender kids take a lot of shit and more needs to be done to make sure they are being treated with the same respect as everyone else. That said though your movement is named OWS not the lets change the world campaign. I have seen posts from all sorts of groups like foodies who are joining the movement to make their issue heard(in the case of the foodies its how unlike food our food has become). It just seems that in addition to the massive number of hippies there are all these other groups flooding in trying to make their issues heard and hippies being hippies must then include it and be tolerant.
Click to expand...
You're ascribing some sort of fairness doctrine where none exists here. The most traction a militant foodie would get is the ability to have workshops onsite to educate others that might be interested in their issues; not to steer the entire movement. And when it comes to marginalized people (gender, race, class, etc), economics affects them differently so it's important to be more inclusive of the poor, people of color, and women as opposed to keeping it a white middleclass make dominated movement. So some of what you perceive as fringe issues, are actually integral to it.

I want to change our food system, I believe in tolerance of all people, I believe Church and State should be seperate and I believe that more needs to be done to bring minorities above the poverty line. However I also as an intelligent adult can recognize that the more issues you tack on and the more ultra left wing politically correct you become the more your movement is going to lose its voice and more important the harder it will be to implement any type of change.
Click to expand...
What is "ultra left wing politically correct?" I'm seeing a lot of complex concepts being thrown around, but it doesn't really seem like you quite grasp them.

Edit - I just wanted to add that I think now is the time to protest, now is the time for change. If you are someone that has an issue you feel must be heard...GOOD! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! We need more protests, we need more people standing up and saying enough and making their voices heard. However I think there are better ways to go about it then to just amass in one place and try and all shout for change and list a billion complaints. The foodies should be protesting in front of grocery stores like Walmart or corporations like Monsanto. The transgender kids in front of schools or the places they are taking the most shit. I am not against these people fighting to make their voice heard, I am against them leaching on to another giant movement that could accomplish something if they solidified as one voice over a handful of issues(even if they are broad like general corruption).
Click to expand...
I think this was already addressed.
 
I really liked Colbert's interview last night. It reminded me of children trying to explain the internet or 20 sided dice to their grandparents.

The thing I really like about OWS is that there aren't any leaders. Consolidated power always leads to abuse and hopefully this a movement that can stay true to its ideals.

My one big problem is the long term game plan. If this eventually becomes a viable political movement, how does it nominate someone for President or even Congress? It seems the only solution would be a new Constitution.
 
thanks for contributing nothing to the discussion. why not just tell us what right-wing-noise-machine RSS feeds you subscribe to so you can spare yourself the time of going from those feeds to posting here?
 
Thrust supports the tea party, and didn't the KKK support the tea party?

"Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are"
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']"Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are"[/QUOTE]

I really should not let you thread jack, but someone who was on record defending Warren Jeffs might want to be a bit more careful with their quotes.

Like I said the occupiers are having an impact, and watching the usual morons have little temper tantrums until people pay attention to them again is just more proof.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']thanks for contributing nothing to the discussion. why not just tell us what right-wing-noise-machine RSS feeds you subscribe to so you can spare yourself the time of going from those feeds to posting here?[/QUOTE]

:lol:
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Some more fans of this movement:
http://pjmedia.com/zombie/



"Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are"[/QUOTE]
That post, it is like a comeback tour or everyone the US painted as an enemy 20-30 years ago. It's got Khamenei, Korea, communists, nazis, Farrakhan, Hezbollah, and students. Man, why is it that the conservatives always resort to the politics of fear to garner support.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='The Crotch']Suck it, splitters.[/QUOTE]

Everyone knows that the New Black Panthers are in lockstep with the "Rent is Too Damn High" party.

Well, except for ethnocentric Canadians, it seems.

;)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Who needs the Christian Science Monitor when you have PJ's Media?[/QUOTE]
I think this is going to be the second time one of your comments towards me has completely flown over my head.
 
He's still mocking thrustbucket's link from earlier.

PJ's media is more right-wing party line shittery that serves virtually no purpose. The csmonitor article actually cites researchers who surveyed people at the protest in order to ascertain it's demographic. In other words he's using sarcasm to highlight the contrast between the two links and reenforce why yours is good. Or something.
 
[quote name='cochesecochese']He's still mocking thrustbucket's link from earlier.

PJ's media is more right-wing party line shittery that serves virtually no purpose. The csmonitor article actually cites researchers who surveyed people at the protest in order to ascertain it's demographic. In other words he's using sarcasm to highlight the contrast between the two links and reenforce why yours is good. Or something.[/QUOTE]
I totally forgot about thrusts link. Bad on me on that one.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']I totally forgot about thrusts link. Bad on me on that one.[/QUOTE]

fool me once, shame on you...

i can understand a drunken 2am dead milkmen reference as being obscure, at least.
 
Graffiti was everywhere - from anarchist symbols to threatening gang tags. Messages included "Oakland commune" and "kill cops."
Click to expand...

This is why we need a militarized police presence at Occupy events?

wank wank.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']This is why we need a militarized police presence at Occupy events?

wank wank.[/QUOTE]

Did [anyone say that?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/03/BANI1LQ2HO.DTL&ao=all[/QUOTE]

Can't speak to the taking over of the building, but the graffiti was caused by a minority and cleaned the protesters, the minority of people breaking glass were also stopped by the protestors and from what I understand there are plans to reimburse the business that received damage, and the fire that the article is mentioning was also put out by the protesters. But whatever this article is obviously being fair in its report and not just taking official police stances as the end all.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Can't speak to the taking over of the building, but the graffiti was caused by a minority and cleaned the protesters, the minority of people breaking glass were also stopped by the protestors and from what I understand there are plans to reimburse the business that received damage, and the fire that the article is mentioning was also put out by the protesters. But whatever this article is obviously being fair in its report and not just taking official police stances as the end all.[/QUOTE]

The following statement could totally be taken out of context...

It's generally always a minority that causes the issues.

Just like one idiot with a racist sign at a Tea Party protest gets plastered all over as the "face" of the Tea Party, one idiot lighting a fire gets blown out of proportion here. Sad but true.

I've read a couple of stories about groups going to clean up the damage done by others. Props to them. The live stream I was watching until 4 am was pretty awesome as well (until he spent about an hour begging for someone to bring him a phone battery - which, of course, was understandable, but not very informational).

Anyway, one of the contributors to this article is the same dude I've been spamming this thread with tweets from. It's been a pleasure following him and getting his first-hand insight. He's done a great job of pointing out what he's "heard" from what he's "seen" and has some timely news.
 
Having spent a bit of time at Occupy MN over the weekend I can say this much, lacking any coherent message other than "the situation sucks" isn't helping the cause. Also, some of the "kids" are indeed kids and they're dumb as shit.
I decided to quit talking to them and concentrate on conversations with people who looked like they're head wasn't firmly up their ass and found a much better group there. Of course, they didn't like the kids either.

It's an interesting crowd, that's for sure.
 
[quote name='nasum']Having spent a bit of time at Occupy MN over the weekend I can say this much, lacking any coherent message other than "the situation sucks" isn't helping the cause. Also, some of the "kids" are indeed kids and they're dumb as shit.
I decided to quit talking to them and concentrate on conversations with people who looked like they're head wasn't firmly up their ass and found a much better group there. Of course, they didn't like the kids either.

It's an interesting crowd, that's for sure.[/QUOTE]

dohdoh response in 3-2-1 ;)

Anyways, as I said a page back again this movements biggest problem is the movement itself. It is focusing on things far too broad and far too many of the people are ignorant on whats supposed to be their base issues. Focus on a few things, educate your fellow protestors and speak out as one intelligent voice.

Maybe the NY movement is different, but I know a few people online that have visited their movements and your response are in line with mine and every other person iv talked to that I have any respect for.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Did [anyone say that?[/QUOTE]

You never espouse any viewpoint.

You just ask pointless questions taken out of right-wing talking blogs and then act innocent and coy when folks call you on your BS.
 
For someone who never says anything, bob does say a lot. Little of it is explicit, most of it is implied.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']dohdoh response in 3-2-1 ;)

Anyways, as I said a page back again this movements biggest problem is the movement itself. It is focusing on things far too broad and far too many of the people are ignorant on whats supposed to be their base issues. Focus on a few things, educate your fellow protestors and speak out as one intelligent voice.

Maybe the NY movement is different, but I know a few people online that have visited their movements and your response are in line with mine and every other person iv talked to that I have any respect for.[/QUOTE]

That's the whole point of the movement. There isn't one unified voice. One unified voice has leadership that gets co-opted by Big Money and corrupted by power. This movement dies the minute it settles into set talking points like the Tea Party.
 
One of my favorite OWS stories:

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/11/03/mens-wearhouse-corporate-lackeys-of-the-occupy-movement/

tldr: Men's Wearhouse supports OWS, so they can go fuck themselves. I guarantee it.

I guess they didn't know that the CEO has been a longtime supporter of not just democratic candidates, but progressive lefty cnadidates like HoDean. He (the CEO) funneled something like $70k to the legalize pot initiative in Cali last year.

What's next, boycott Ben & Jerry's?
 
[quote name='depascal22']That's the whole point of the movement. There isn't one unified voice. One unified voice has leadership that gets co-opted by Big Money and corrupted by power. This movement dies the minute it settles into set talking points like the Tea Party.[/QUOTE]

I wasnt saying they need one unified speaker, I said one unified voice. They need to pick a few issues and hammer those home. Pick income equality and corruption or pick education and unemployment. They need to just have a few issues, educate themselves on those issues and have the thousands of people as one say if not the same thing then at least something similar.
 
MSI, you are deluding yourself if you think any of that matters.

Unlike with the tea crowd there are people who can and do articulate what it is all about.

They get ignored just as easily.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top