What a crock of shit: PS3 screws owners of older HDTVs

QUESTION

If PS3's hardware lacks scaling capability How does it shrink the image from 720p to 480p? Couldn't it just work in the opposite direction (scale up to 1080p or i)?


ALSO: What happens when you watch a 720p program on NBC or TNT? Does the oldstyle 480/1080 set reject the signal?
 
[quote name='fred_h_haddad']QUESTION

If PS3's hardware lacks scaling capability How does it shrink the image from 720p to 480p? Couldn't it just work in the opposite direction (scale up to 1080p or i)?


ALSO: What happens when you watch a 720p program on NBC or TNT? Does the oldstyle 480/1080 set reject the signal?[/quote]

From what I understand, the PS3 isn't "shrinking" the image. It leaves the PS3 as a 720p signal and if your TV cannot accept a 720p signal and it does not have its own built in scaler then the picture will be displayed in a lower resolution by default.

As for TV, every single cable box that I've ever seen has a built in upscaler to display on 1080i TVs. This is why it's such a crock of shit that the PS3 does not include one. My 3 year old cable box works just fine. TV looks fantastic in 1080i even though most channels broadcast in 720p.
 
Thats actually not true........if your TV set doesn't handle a 720p signal all it would show is garbage on the screen, it wouldn't automatically display it at 480p. Without a scaler in there it can't do that job on its own.

Whats happening is that the game makers have code written in that says if you set the system for 1080i, its going to reset it the signal to 480p. And thats what happens.
 
[quote name='HeadRusch']Thats actually not true........if your TV set doesn't handle a 720p signal all it would show is garbage on the screen, it wouldn't automatically display it at 480p. Without a scaler in there it can't do that job on its own.

Whats happening is that the game makers have code written in that says if you set the system for 1080i, its going to reset it the signal to 480p. And thats what happens.[/quote]

Ahhh, that makes more sense to me now. When I set my 360 to display at 720p I can't see anything at all...
 
Some TV's have built-in downscalers too. My Sony (hehe) 51" RPTV says in the manual that it will convert 720p signals to 480p for my convenience. Bastards.

It appears Sony's approach for now is to quietly put forth a variety of responses: ignoring the issue ("..."), minimizing the issue ("only a FEW HDTV's released in the US have this problem"), blaming the consumer ("this problem is on the side of the HDTV"), or offering the "solution" of buying their $1400 HDTV receiver (with a built-in scaler!). This last option was being pushed on the Playstation message boards someone linked to earlier.
 
[quote name='HeadRusch']Thats actually not true........if your TV set doesn't handle a 720p signal all it would show is garbage on the screen, it wouldn't automatically display it at 480p.

Whats happening is that the game makers have code written in that says if you set the system for 1080i, its going to reset it the signal to 480p. And thats what happens.[/quote]

-So the PS3 scales the image from 720p to 480p?
-Or is it the game software that does the scaling?
 
I think they will remedy the problem by making it MANDATORY that all future titles support 480i/p,720p,1080i/p. Current titles will have to be adjusted to fix this in future batches. Marvel Alliance does this now,but title like Resistance fall of man don't.
 
I think they will remedy the problem by making it MANDATORY that all future titles support 480i/p,720p,1080i/p. Current titles will have to be adjusted to fix this in future batches. Marvel Alliance does this now,but title like Resistance fall of man don't.
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That would certainly be one solution, but I just don't see it happening. It sounds like they consider this whole thing to be a very minor problem unfortunately.
 
How many HDs exist that can only do 720p or 1080i but not both?

"-So the PS3 scales the image from 720p to 480p?
"-Or is it the game software that does the scaling?"

If the PS3 can scale down to 480p it should be able to work in reverse (scale up to 1080).
 
[quote name='sarausagi']fuck you, my Panasonic widescreen CRT direct view [tube] at 1080i can display a better image than any of your LCD or projection based monitors ON STOCK SETTINGS, once I calibrate the base menu and get into the service menu and tweak even more my 1080i Panasonic tube can rip apart even 1080p displays, at any distance, in any lighting condition, with any source material. Plus I can hook up a damn Genesis and actually enjoy the way it looks.[/QUOTE]


Your ignorance is amazing.

1080p>720p>1080i

Either your reaction time is that of a turtle and you can't see any difference or your eye vision sucks and you need to get them checked out. The color might look nicer but the picture sure as hell isn't.
 
[quote name='N5']Your ignorance is amazing.

1080p>720p>1080i

Either your reaction time is that of a turtle and you can't see any difference or your eye vision sucks and you need to get them checked out. The color might look nicer but the picture sure as hell isn't.[/QUOTE]
Your ignorance is also amazing.

The most important factor in HD quality isn't the resolution, whether its 720p or 1080i. Contrast ratio, color saturation, color accuracy, and response time are all more important. Right now, nothing beats a CRT in image quality.

Don't be brainwashed by vendors like Sony into thinking that resolution is king, its not. Besides, its almost impossible to tell the difference on anything smaller than a 42 inch screen, CRT's top out at 30 inches.
 
[quote name='Psykoboy2']I've got a 73 inch CRT.[/QUOTE]
Rear projection? Those have excellent image quality but not they're quite the same as a direct view CRT.
 
The most important factor in HD quality isn't the resolution, whether its 720p or 1080i. Contrast ratio, color saturation, color accuracy, and response time are all more important. Right now, nothing beats a CRT in image quality.
Click to expand...
Very, very true.

Rear projection? Those have excellent image quality but not they're quite the same as a direct view CRT.
Click to expand...
It's true that you have a few issues with rear projection like convergence, greyscale, etc. but you also have issues with overscan and geometry on direct view (RP has these too, but they can be fixed...you can't do much about them on a direct view set). I had my 56" RP professionally ISF calibrated when I got it, and I would say with that done, it puts out an image that is as good or better than a direct view set. It certainly beats the pants off of the mass-market LCD, DLP, and Plasma stuff out there, the tradeoff being that it is like five hundred pounds and takes up a lot of space. The only thing that can really beat it is a nice front projector...that is KING in a light-controlled room.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Rear projection? Those have excellent image quality but not they're quite the same as a direct view CRT.[/quote]

Oh yeah, it's a rear projection. Mitsubishi WS-73909.

I'm looking to get the new 73 DLP's they have out.
 
What's the flaw with LCD?
Click to expand...
Response times and more importantly, lack of brightness and VERY washed out black levels (that look grey). LCD is great for computers and small, cheap TVs. It never should have been brought into the home theater arena though.
 
[quote name='secretvampire']Response times and more importantly, lack of brightness and VERY washed out black levels (that look grey). LCD is great for computers and small, cheap TVs. It never should have been brought into the home theater arena though.[/quote]

Samsung's (i believe) upcoming 70" LCD plans to change that.
 
The high-end LCD's are perfectly good (now) for Home Theatre...but the ones from 2004 or earlier, definately not.

PS: Every "new generation" of LCD/DLP/LcOS claims to be able to surpass CRT's for image quality.....they just add more AI trickery into the logic of the TV's...CRT's have absolute black level because they don't project any light at all where "black" is supposed to be.

Even the new inorganic LCD panels that can do a better contrast ratio than the current models will still be allowing some light through the turned-off pixels.
 
[quote name='HeadRusch']The high-end LCD's are perfectly good (now) for Home Theatre...but the ones from 2004 or earlier, definately not.

PS: Every "new generation" of LCD/DLP/LcOS claims to be able to surpass CRT's for image quality.....they just add more AI trickery into the logic of the TV's...CRT's have absolute black level because they don't project any light at all where "black" is supposed to be.

Even the new inorganic LCD panels that can do a better contrast ratio than the current models will still be allowing some light through the turned-off pixels.[/quote]

Completely agree, these new generation LCDs look fine and I can really see what the fuss is about. Heck, I have one myself.
I remember seeing them a few years ago and grimacing.
Now, my jaw usually drops.
 
Ok, after reading this thread I think I almost got it. I have a 30 inch Samsung Slimfit HDTV that does 720p. I am ok as far as the downscaling, right? My games are going to display in 720p no matter what. Right? I hear both yes and no to this.
 
Well I'm damn glad I looked at this thread now and was 10 INCHES behind the fellow that walked into Gamestop ahead of me at lunch as I would now be the owner of a 60Gig PS3 that could display no better than my new Wii.

That would have pissed me off masively after spending $600 compared to $250.

My TV is an older Toshiba HDTV "Ready" set that only does 480I, 480P and 1080I so this effects me and my buying decision completely.

Hopefully Sony will rectify it at some point - even with a new hardware release it will suffice for me, but I'm not spending the extra $$$ for the console until I get some sort of very real advantage with my existing TV over the Wii. (Never getting rid of the Wii, just adding to the play options, generally our house has been a Sony and Nintendo house both.

Hell, maybe I better get a 360 instead.

:(
 
for blue ray i think. Not for games. I think games use too much processer power to have enuff left for upscaleing. Thats really the issue. A chip that is set asside normaly does that and alevates the main processer of that function. If the main processer runs at full for just upscaleing blue ray, it might have problems durring a game.
 
Sony really has two options: a new hardware revision with a hardware scaler built in, and changing the PS3 spec so that a certain amount of system resources are used for scaling, though all current and near future games wont be able to scale since they are made with the full processing power in mind. However, I'm not sure if this is feasible, since I don't know how much power this would take. I do know that one of the processor cores is reserved for system use, so maybe Sony could use that since I heard the OS doesn't run in the background.
Really the best option is a hardware revision.
 
[quote name='Kaijufan']Sony really has two options: a new hardware revision with a hardware scaler built in, and changing the PS3 spec so that a certain amount of system resources are used for scaling, though all current and near future games wont be able to scale since they are made with the full processing power in mind. However, I'm not sure if this is feasible, since I don't know how much power this would take. I do know that one of the processor cores is reserved for system use, so maybe Sony could use that since I heard the OS doesn't run in the background.
Really the best option is a hardware revision.[/QUOTE]

Or maybe a third: Force devs to support 720p along with 1080i/p in every game. Instead of using filler spaces on the disk they would have to actually use the space allowed to fit the different resolution textures.


[quote name='addicted2games']Ok, after reading this thread I think I almost got it. I have a 30 inch Samsung Slimfit HDTV that does 720p. I am ok as far as the downscaling, right? My games are going to display in 720p no matter what. Right? I hear both yes and no to this.[/QUOTE]

Your TV cant do 720p, it can accept it. If you input a 720p signal it will upconvert to 1080i
 
[quote name='Michaellvortega']Or maybe a third: Force devs to support 720p along with 1080i/p in every game. Instead of using filler spaces on the disk they would have to actually use the space allowed to fit the different resolution textures.
[/quote]
I don't think that the lack of 1080 textures is the problem. The problem is that it's too difficult to render in 1080 this generation. From what I've read the 360 has a more powerful GPU then the PS3 and most 360 games are rendered in 720p.
 
[quote name='Kaijufan']I don't think that the lack of 1080 textures is the problem. The problem is that it's too difficult to render in 1080 this generation. From what I've read the 360 has a more powerful GPU then the PS3 and most 360 games are rendered in 720p.[/QUOTE]

I meant the lack of 720p textures.
 
[quote name='White-Wolf']for blue ray i think. Not for games. I think games use too much processer power to have enuff left for upscaleing. [/quote]

PS3's got 3 processors. Surely one of them is sitting-around, doing-nothing, and available to do some simply scaling.

- If you have 720-set and the game is 1080--- PS3 drops to 480.

- If you have 1080-set and the game is 720--- PS3 drops to 480.

- If you have 720/1080-set then no worries.
 
[quote name='fred_h_haddad']PS3's got 3 processors. Surely one of them is sitting-around, doing-nothing, and available to do some simply scaling.
[/QUOTE]

Huh? PS3 has EIGHT processors. One of them is disabled, leaving 7 available.

Unless something changed in the last year or two.
 
[quote name='Michaellvortega']Your TV cant do 720p, it can accept it. If you input a 720p signal it will upconvert to 1080i[/quote]

How can you find this out for sure for a TV? I've got a Panasonic plasma HDTV (TX-50PH20). I bought it in January of 2004 and all of the Xbox 360 games look fantastic on it. I'd really like a straight answer somehow because if it will work with the PS3 I'll buy one eventually but if not, I'll pass. I'm guessing I'm screwed but I can't seem to figure it out for sure.
 
How can you find this out for sure for a TV? I've got a Panasonic plasma HDTV (TX-50PH20). I bought it in January of 2004 and all of the Xbox 360 games look fantastic on it. I'd really like a straight answer somehow because if it will work with the PS3 I'll buy one eventually but if not, I'll pass. I'm guessing I'm screwed but I can't seem to figure it out for sure.
Click to expand...
You've got the capabilities right in front of you. Set your Xbox 360 so it ONLY outputs 720p, do not select 1080i as an option. Play a game, see what happens! If your TV doesn't scale it, you will get a black screen while playing (or 480p which should be obvious).

EDIT: By the way javeryh, I did a quick Google on your model (which is actually TH-50PX20U/P, you switched the X and H ;) ) and unfortunately, I found a CNET review that stated it doesn't take a 720p input. Please verify it for yourself though.
 
Damn, I was hoping that they had fixed this already. I just picked up a PS3 and this isn't making actually opening it up any easier.
 
Quick question.
So I have a 32 inch Sanyo, that converts all signals to 1080i. As in 480i, 480p, and OTA signals that come in at 720 and 1080, all to 1080, will my tv display a ps3 outputting at 720?

Here is the link for my TV. http://www.sanyo.com/entertainment/televisions/digital/index.cfm?productID=905

Could someone please help me out, as I just got one today at BB, and I'm now debating opening it up or not. Does best buy take open box returns w/o a restock fee on the ps3?? I guess I could flip it onto ebay in the worst case scenario, it's just that 100 dollars profit just doesn't seem worth it, and I already flipped my first ps3 onto ebay.
 
[quote name='Rimmit']Quick question.
So I have a 32 inch Sanyo, that converts all signals to 1080i. As in 480i, 480p, and OTA signals that come in at 720 and 1080, all to 1080, will my tv display a ps3 outputting at 720?

Here is the link for my TV. http://www.sanyo.com/entertainment/televisions/digital/index.cfm?productID=905

Could someone please help me out, as I just got one today at BB, and I'm now debating opening it up or not. Does best buy take open box returns w/o a restock fee on the ps3?? I guess I could flip it onto ebay in the worst case scenario, it's just that 100 dollars profit just doesn't seem worth it, and I already flipped my first ps3 onto ebay.[/QUOTE]

If opened Im pretty sure BB will only let you exchange it for the same item if the system is defective.
 
[quote name='secretvampire']You've got the capabilities right in front of you. Set your Xbox 360 so it ONLY outputs 720p, do not select 1080i as an option. Play a game, see what happens! If your TV doesn't scale it, you will get a black screen while playing (or 480p which should be obvious).

EDIT: By the way javeryh, I did a quick Google on your model (which is actually TH-50PX20U/P, you switched the X and H ;) ) and unfortunately, I found a CNET review that stated it doesn't take a 720p input. Please verify it for yourself though.[/quote]

Thanks for the help. I set my Xbox to display at 720p a while back and couldn't get a signal. I thought maybe I could set my TV to upscale the signal or something but I guess not. Sony better effing fix this.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']Damn, I was hoping that they had fixed this already. I just picked up a PS3 and this isn't making actually opening it up any easier.[/QUOTE]

Sony released new firmware 1.30, as I have read on TechSpot. This is what it says:

Sony releases firmware update 1.30 for PS3
by Erik Orejuela on December 7, 2006, 2:49 PM

Sony released yesterday a new firmware (1.3) update for the PlayStation 3 console adding four important new features: (1) the ability to register the BD remote control, select the video output format to use when outputting video content from a Blu-ray Disc using an HDMI cable (automatic, RGB, or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr), (2) a new Backup Utility that allows to backup or restore the PS3 hard drive to media storage devices like MemoryStick, SD card, or USB flash drives, (3) a new hard disk format method (Full or Quick Format), and finally (4) a new method for selecting the output resolution (1080p > 1080i > 720p > 480p > Standard NTSC).

You can update your PS3 firmware through the System Update Feature in the console, or you can also download the file (98MB) to your computer and use a storage device to transfer it. Also newer games are expected to have this update included on the disc.
Click to expand...

Hopefully that helps some people as I have neither an HDTV or a PS3.
 
This news item from CED, last sentence bolded for emphasis:

"Selection of video output resolution changed, letting PS3 users choose all resolutions supported by TVs when playing a Blu-ray movie, Sony said: “The video will automatically be displayed at the maximum resolution possible, according to the following order”: 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p, standard (NTSC). The 1.30 update gives PS3 users “the ability to select the output format for Blu-ray/DVD video through an HDMI cable,” SCEA said. Users can a pick video output format from among automatic, RGB or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr “to suit your TV’s specification,” it said.

But Sony didn’t fix a resolution problem affecting gaming. “A small number of older” HDTVs in the U.S. only have 1080i inputs for HD signals and those sets “will currently only play some PS3 titles at 480p resolution,” an SCEA spokeswoman said: “PS3 games render images at either 720p or 1080p for high definition, and you need 720p input on the TV to play select games that do not support 1080p.” As a result “when a game outputs an HD signal only at 720p... select TVs have to display the game at 480p instead.” The company indicated this isn’t something that can be addressed via a firmware upgrade."

I wanted to point this out for all the know-nothings that were saying to just wait for a firmware upgrade, it ain't gonna happen.
 
[quote name='secretvampire']This news item from CED, last sentence bolded for emphasis:

"Selection of video output resolution changed, letting PS3 users choose all resolutions supported by TVs when playing a Blu-ray movie, Sony said: “The video will automatically be displayed at the maximum resolution possible, according to the following order”: 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p, standard (NTSC). The 1.30 update gives PS3 users “the ability to select the output format for Blu-ray/DVD video through an HDMI cable,” SCEA said. Users can a pick video output format from among automatic, RGB or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr “to suit your TV’s specification,” it said.

But Sony didn’t fix a resolution problem affecting gaming. “A small number of older” HDTVs in the U.S. only have 1080i inputs for HD signals and those sets “will currently only play some PS3 titles at 480p resolution,” an SCEA spokeswoman said: “PS3 games render images at either 720p or 1080p for high definition, and you need 720p input on the TV to play select games that do not support 1080p.” As a result “when a game outputs an HD signal only at 720p... select TVs have to display the game at 480p instead.” The company indicated this isn’t something that can be addressed via a firmware upgrade."

I wanted to point this out for all the know-nothings that were saying to just wait for a firmware upgrade, it ain't gonna happen.[/quote]

Well, that's too bad. I will definitely not be buying a PS3. The next TV I buy is way way way way off and by that time the PS3 might be obsolete (as well as Sony as a videogame hardware provider unless they get their shit together). It is simply unbelievable that they could let this happen and I assure you it's more than "a small number of older" HDTVs that this is affecting.
 
Thanks SecretVampire...and that is exactly why after 1+ year of waiting for a PS3 I threw in the towell yesterday and purchased a 1080i capable 360 Premium (and with $100 Rebate from Microcenter its a damn good deal to boot). I won't say my house isn't without a Sony as we still have the PS2, but that may be the extent of my Sony consoles for awhile.


[quote name='secretvampire']This news item from CED, last sentence bolded for emphasis:

"Selection of video output resolution changed, letting PS3 users choose all resolutions supported by TVs when playing a Blu-ray movie, Sony said: “The video will automatically be displayed at the maximum resolution possible, according to the following order”: 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p, standard (NTSC). The 1.30 update gives PS3 users “the ability to select the output format for Blu-ray/DVD video through an HDMI cable,” SCEA said. Users can a pick video output format from among automatic, RGB or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr “to suit your TV’s specification,” it said.

But Sony didn’t fix a resolution problem affecting gaming. “A small number of older” HDTVs in the U.S. only have 1080i inputs for HD signals and those sets “will currently only play some PS3 titles at 480p resolution,” an SCEA spokeswoman said: “PS3 games render images at either 720p or 1080p for high definition, and you need 720p input on the TV to play select games that do not support 1080p.” As a result “when a game outputs an HD signal only at 720p... select TVs have to display the game at 480p instead.” The company indicated this isn’t something that can be addressed via a firmware upgrade."

I wanted to point this out for all the know-nothings that were saying to just wait for a firmware upgrade, it ain't gonna happen.[/quote]
 
[quote name='TexTuna']Thanks SecretVampire...and that is exactly why after 1+ year of waiting for a PS3 I threw in the towell yesterday and purchased a 1080i capable 360 Premium (and with $100 Rebate from Microcenter its a damn good deal to boot). I won't say my house isn't without a Sony as we still have the PS2, but that may be the extent of my Sony platforms for awhile.[/quote]

You won't regret it. There are a ton of realy good 360 games out there right now and it only looks to get better. Plus, the games look fantastic in 1080i.
 
Whats the issue with the CRTs 480i and 1080i tvs? i have a CRT Panasonic that only supports 480i and 1080i.. and it seems like the only problem i have with it is the wide screen where i stretches too far and the font is kinda blurry on the tv... Anyword on a fix or patch for it soon?
 
That set is native 720p. You have nothing to worry about.

EDIT: The issue is with sets that display only 480i/p and 1080i. It's my understanding the PS3 won't display in 1080i and will only work in 480p until a supposed fixpack is released.
 
This only applies to TVs that are only 480p and 1080i.

Games that have a max of 720p will output (not downscale) to 480p.
Games that have a max of 1080p (like NBA2K7), will output at 1080i (with the latest firmware).

Whether the PS3 will actually upscale 720p games to 1080i remains to be seen. Until then, just hope more game companies make their games output 1080p because then you'll get the interlaced version of it.
 
what if the tv supports 720p and 1080i, but not 1080p?

I posted on this in another related topic...
anyway here's the skinny. He's sure his tv supports 720p and 1080i (his dtv signal is 1080i standard), but neither display would work under the display settings in ps3 (blue screen for 30 secs). His tv settings only allows us to select 480p and 960i though.

We're using component cables made for the ps2/xbox by GameShark (or is that MadCatz?) that I got for $16. His tv is a Mitsubishi 1080HD



-edit-
hmm....nevermind I think I found what I was looking for. I may have found the same set or a similar looking set on amazon and it seems that it only does 480p and 1080i...sucks
Well...here's hoping they fix the 480p instead of 1080i problem lol
 
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