What do you think about Target Transgender Bathroom Policy

They should retrofit all of the bathroom space to a section of single occupancy bathrooms. Probably would be able to support the amount who use it on any given day.

Solves any and all issues across all lines. One space for one human. Nobody socializes in the bathroom really.

Just my thoughts.
 
mrsilkunderwear said:
No, that would be anti freedom. Pretty much goes against all the natural rights and the founding principles of this country.
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what are you talking about this country was founding on christian beliefs

 
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starmask2k3 said:
what are you talking about this country was founding on christian beliefs
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They also used to burn people for being a witch, lets not forget about that whole slavery thing. The whole bathroom thing is stupid, I can almost guarantee your going to get a bunch of idiots to piss and shit all over the place.

 
starmask2k3 said:
what are you talking about this country was founding on christian beliefs
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Except for that whole separation of church and state thing...which has always been bullshit. And when you consider that the people who founded the country were refugees who were looking for a place they could practice their beliefs freely without persecution, the hypocrisy grows even more.

So, really, if you want to get technical, this country was founded on bullshit and lies.

 
starmask2k3 said:
there should be and for same-sex marriage too
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There should be a ban on bigots and idiots and fake Christians. Oh wait they are all one and the same.

The country was founded on slavery and horse shit and fucking over England and no religion at all.

 
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starmask2k3 said:
what are you talking about this country was founding on christian beliefs
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No, in part it was founded by men being guided by Christian VALUES.

The Green Giant said:
There should be a ban on bigots and idiots and fake Christians. Oh wait they are all one and the same.

The country was founded on slavery and horse shit and fucking over England and no religion at all.
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Wrong in all the cases.

 
Finger_Shocker said:
I thought Christian values was to love thy neighbor

But these day Christians values are all about bigotry, hatred, and guns, money and death.
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Right... lets not think about all the billions donated to charities, mission trips and resources given to natural disaster victims. I have problems with some religious people and groups but at least I fucking think before I say something so ignorant.

 
Soon Trump will be president and Amerika will really go to H e L L

Bigotry will become a constutional right once republicans get their control over Congress

And the Pope is a Christian, but most Americans however are not as claimed.

 
mrsilkunderwear said:
No, in part it was founded by men being guided by Christian VALUES.

Wrong in all the cases.
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I'm sorry facts are never wrong, but it's clear you always are.

There are such things are human values, which the founding fathers didn't really have...

"All men are created equal.... yes as long as you were a literally a man, white and own landed. You black? 3/5ths a person. Woman?! Go make me dinner bitch and pop out some sons.

 
The Green Giant said:
I'm sorry facts are never wrong, but it's clear you always are.

There are such things are human values, which the founding fathers didn't really have...

"All men are created equal.... yes as long as you were a literally a man, white and own landed. You black? 3/5ths a person. Woman?! Go make me dinner bitch and pop out some sons.
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Yeah you really might want to read up on the revolution and the founding fathers.

I said you were wrong because you wanted to ban people. Free speech is not just meant for you and SJW, its really meant for everyone regardless of the views. The limitations being that the right cannot infringe on your liberties.

Now you proceed to say that founding fathers didnt have human values which baffles my mind. Of course I do not agree with everything they have done or believed in but the fact of the matter is they founded a nation which was unlike any other at that time. Recognizing more rights that almost any other nation and giving the people an option to elect their leaders. Perfect? No, but it was a good start. In regards to the slaves, not every founding father agreed with that concept. Jefferson for example was very much against it later in his life but mostly opposed the freedom because he believed it was in the best interest of the nation.

So if you want to continue this conversation then you better start coming up with these so called facts because so far you have nothing.

 
This was an issue two years ago. http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

Oh yeah, most perverts are of the straight male type, so the spooooooooky gays and transgender people are hardly the type of people you should be afraid of when you go to the bathroom. In fact, if you see anybody protesting Target's or Obama's bathroom policy, they're the perverts, good ole Patriotic Christian Americans. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/05/05/active-shooter-in-illinois-target-was-actually-a-man-protesting-bathroom-policy-police-say/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/18/wicked-practice-target-protests-feature-bible-toting-woman-scary-portrayal-of-big-man-and-little-girl-in-bathroom/

 
to the people that say christian's are bad and evil it's very very hot and very bad in HELL and when all god's people go up to heaven all HELL will be on Earth that's all i have to say

 
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starmask2k3 said:
to the people that say christian's are bad and evil it's very very hot and very bad in HELL and when all god's people go up to heaven all HELL will be on Earth that's all i have to say
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Noooo.... Christians are good or work for good, it is only AMERICAN Christians who are technically evil and the worst

 
Myself personally as someone not political and not religious this is how I feel.

You should use the bathroom for the sex you were born as.

I say that because you have to put a line in the sand somewhere. You cant start making exceptions with our society simply because you give people an inch they take it a mile. Sometimes you shouldnt make exceptions because they get exploited, taken out of context, or turned into something bigger than they should be. And like this in this topic, do nothing but raise peoples temperatures and cause a lot of unneeded backlash and hatred. Our society has to be treated like kids sometimes where the parents say "This is how it is, end of story. Its for your own good". Its like lawsuits in a way, soon as a lady burned herself on mcdonalds coffee and won a ton of money we have since seen a staggering rise in just ridiculous lawsuits and people taking advantage of the legal system. Something like this will be a gateway opening for others to start demanding madman like demands and considerations.

Now I dont hate trans people. I understand who they are and so on, its fine and Ill never tell them they are wrong. But lets face the grim meat hook realities of it, you can pull the stem off an apple and spray paint it orange but its still an apple. Bottom line is, if youre born a man then youre a man and vice versa and you should abide by polite society rules as such.

And I dont mean this in a negative way but, trans people are the minority in this country. If trans people made up half the population then that is a different story, but they arent. So the majority arent even considered in this case. When it comes to things like this you cant look at a small amount of people, you have to consider and do whats best for the majority. And ultimately thats my real complaint, everyone in this country has to be catered to and babied and treated special when in the real world laws are created for the majority. When does it stop? How many rules and exceptions are we going to have in order for every single person to be happy?

My problem is this country changes rules and makes decisions for small amounts of people who are really loud on the internet and that is a terrible thing. This country should be about whats good for the most people and whats fair to the majority. Not constantly running around putting a band aid on every tiny cut or scratch.

 
MrClark said:
Myself personally as someone not political and not religious this is how I feel.

You should use the bathroom for the sex you were born as.

I say that because you have to put a line in the sand somewhere. You cant start making exceptions with our society simply because you give people an inch they take it a mile. Sometimes you shouldnt make exceptions because they get exploited, taken out of context, or turned into something bigger than they should be. And like this in this topic, do nothing but raise peoples temperatures and cause a lot of unneeded backlash and hatred. Our society has to be treated like kids sometimes where the parents say "This is how it is, end of story. Its for your own good". Its like lawsuits in a way, soon as a lady burned herself on mcdonalds coffee and won a ton of money we have since seen a staggering rise in just ridiculous lawsuits and people taking advantage of the legal system. Something like this will be a gateway opening for others to start demanding madman like demands and considerations.

Now I dont hate trans people. I understand who they are and so on, its fine and Ill never tell them they are wrong. But lets face the grim meat hook realities of it, you can pull the stem off an apple and spray paint it orange but its still an apple. Bottom line is, if youre born a man then youre a man and vice versa and you should abide by polite society rules as such.

And I dont mean this in a negative way but, trans people are the minority in this country. If trans people made up half the population then that is a different story, but they arent. So the majority arent even considered in this case. When it comes to things like this you cant look at a small amount of people, you have to consider and do whats best for the majority. And ultimately thats my real complaint, everyone in this country has to be catered to and babied and treated special when in the real world laws are created for the majority. When does it stop? How many rules and exceptions are we going to have in order for every single person to be happy?

My problem is this country changes rules and makes decisions for small amounts of people who are really loud on the internet and that is a terrible thing. This country should be about whats good for the most people and whats fair to the majority. Not constantly running around putting a band aid on every tiny cut or scratch.
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Why do people have such a difficult time grasping "the sex you were born as" creates just as many problems as "the sex you identify with"? Again, I go back to Shawn Stinson.

transgender.png


Do you want this person in the women's room with your mother? Because that's what your "solution" (and HB2) suggests.

What makes a hell of a lot more sense to me is going into the room that corresponds with your appearance (see also: common sense or...what happened before NC started any of this nonsense). Sure, that leaves open some gray areas where people's interpretation of how "convincing" they are is debatable. But doesn't that exist regardless?

That's the dumbest part about the whole policy. Like you said, it affects a small number of people. It's a non-issue being dictated with non-solutions. And to think this was brought forward by a "less government is the best government" group makes it even more laughable.

As for your McDonald's analogy...you might want to read up on that case too.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

 
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TheN8torious said:
Why do people have such a difficult time grasping "the sex you were born as" creates just as many problems as "the sex you identify with"? Again, I go back to Shawn Stinson.

transgender.png


Do you want this person in the women's room with your mother? Because that's what your "solution" (and HB2) suggests.

What makes a hell of a lot more sense to me is going into the room that corresponds with your appearance (see also: common sense or...what happened before NC started any of this nonsense). Sure, that leaves open some gray areas where people's interpretation of how "convincing" they are is debatable. But doesn't that exist regardless?

That's the dumbest part about the whole policy. Like you said, it affects a small number of people. It's a non-issue being dictated with non-solutions. And to think this was brought forward by a "less government is the best government" group makes it even more laughable.

As for your McDonald's analogy...you might want to read up on that case too.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
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Well the actual details of the case do not matter, what matters is the effects it had on the public and their willingness to take stuff too far. They saw someone else benefit and they took advantage of it. Despite whatever actually came of that case it was definitely the first to open the doors for lawsuit abuse that pretty much started there and lead to where we are now where in which is where people will sue over anything in the hopes of a easy out of court settlement. You dont seem to grasp the point I was trying to make, things like always start very small but they get bigger as time goes on. Thus my analogy.

And appearance makes sense? So you you would leave it all up to something that is purely subjective? By that reasoning if I put some lipstick on I should be able to go into a ladies room all I want because to me I am acceptable, then I can sue the store for denying me entrance because from their view point I am not passable as a woman. Or I can just say "I found out I am a woman like 15 minutes ago, I can go in the ladies room" and what law is there to say otherwise? Do we need to have gender police around the country now to be called when a business decides a person doesnt look enough like the opposite sex to use the restroom?

And why is just now suddenly not ok to just have men in mens rooms and women in womens restrooms? It seems to have worked so far for the past 100 years.

And why does no one consider the people who are made uncomfortable by them being there? If a trans persons feelings matter so much then why dont the feelings of people who arent trans? Again, it goes back to the minority getting what they want because they yell the loudest, that isnt exactly a way you should decide on a law or rule. Giving a small group what they want purely for the sake of not wanting negative press is not a good way to make decisions, on any subject matter. Rules whether they be in a county, a state, or the whole country should be made with the good of the whole in mind.

Really my ultimate complaint is stuff like this makes our country weak as a whole. Its giving in on every little thing for not wanting to seem un-politically correct, its letting a huge huge amount of people abuse the wellfare system despite it damaging the country as a whole because they dont want bad press from the people who could crawl out of the woodwork to say they are starving, its letting black people say whatever they want and letting them constantly be the victim despite whatever truly happens because they dont want to see racist, its letting women file lawsuits for sexism on things like "I dont want to wear heels at work because the men dont have to" but never sticking up for men because they dont want to seem sexist, its ignoring men getting raped or making a joke out of it in prison but when a woman is raped the country rallies together to support and give them whatever they need. Its just one of dozens of things that as a whole make us weak and catering cows always ready to kneel down just to make a person feel special. Thats why we suffer as a whole in this country because we waste all our time worrying about making sure all 440 million americans are special little snowflakes instead of treating everyone fair and the same (and no we do not do that at all).

 
Not to risk derailing an A+ thread, but I thought I heard that the law says you must use the bathroom based on the gender on your birth certificate.  Since you can change the gender on your birth certificate, having a dong or not seems like it would be irrelevant if you update your birth certificate. 

But then again, I never understood why it was a problem to require someone to have ID to vote, and that's a politicized issue, so perhaps I'm just naive.

 
It's not so much having the ID to vote, but it's more of using the fact that you HAVE TO GET an ID as a barrier to vote. Poor people generally have to work all day and they live by their paycheck. That definitely does not give them the time to go to the DMV, which in many states is a challenge in of itself. If getting a valid ID were so easy, everybody would have one by now thanks to a functional bureaucracy, but you'd have to be lucky to not find a dysfunctional one.

 
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MrClark said:
Well the actual details of the case do not matter, what matters is the effects it had on the public and their willingness to take stuff too far. They saw someone else benefit and they took advantage of it. Despite whatever actually came of that case it was definitely the first to open the doors for lawsuit abuse that pretty much started there and lead to where we are now where in which is where people will sue over anything in the hopes of a easy out of court settlement. You dont seem to grasp the point I was trying to make, things like always start very small but they get bigger as time goes on. Thus my analogy.
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:rofl: ok buddy, if you say so
 
detectiveconan16 said:
It's not so much having the ID to vote, but it's more of using the fact that you HAVE TO GET an ID as a barrier to vote. Poor people generally have to work all day and they live by their paycheck. That definitely does not give them the time to go to the DMV, which in many states is a challenge in of itself.
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That and also difficulties in accessing the supporting information: birth certificates, proof of residency, Social Security cards, etc. It's enough of a headache to get a replacement birth certificate when you're middle class.

 
MrClark said:
And appearance makes sense? So you you would leave it all up to something that is purely subjective? By that reasoning if I put some lipstick on I should be able to go into a ladies room all I want because to me I am acceptable [...] Or I can just say "I found out I am a woman like 15 minutes ago, I can go in the ladies room"
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Is this something you (as an assumed biological male) are planning on doing? No? Neither is anyone else, really.

 
MrClark said:
And appearance makes sense? So you you would leave it all up to something that is purely subjective? By that reasoning if I put some lipstick on I should be able to go into a ladies room all I want because to me I am acceptable, then I can sue the store for denying me entrance because from their view point I am not passable as a woman. Or I can just say "I found out I am a woman like 15 minutes ago, I can go in the ladies room" and what law is there to say otherwise? Do we need to have gender police around the country now to be called when a business decides a person doesnt look enough like the opposite sex to use the restroom?

And why is just now suddenly not ok to just have men in mens rooms and women in womens restrooms? It seems to have worked so far for the past 100 years.

And why does no one consider the people who are made uncomfortable by them being there? If a trans persons feelings matter so much then why dont the feelings of people who arent trans? Again, it goes back to the minority getting what they want because they yell the loudest, that isnt exactly a way you should decide on a law or rule. Giving a small group what they want purely for the sake of not wanting negative press is not a good way to make decisions, on any subject matter. Rules whether they be in a county, a state, or the whole country should be made with the good of the whole in mind.
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I like how you take my reasonable, rational suggestion and turn it into something ridiculous because it fits a preconceived idea that you have. Show me where i suggest a man just throw on some lipstick and claim he's a woman. That's not remotely close to what I'm talking about. But I guess that's the problem if you believe ANY transgender woman is "a man in lipstick".

As for the "gender police", I don't see how that situation is any different than trying to enforce HB2 now. Since my appearance idea and people not being able to tell seemed silly to you, are we going to check birth certificates and ask people to pull their pants down before we let them use the bathroom? Is that more realistic? Sure, you'll catch obvious cases, but you would have caught those anyway. The difference is, you're now making it illegal for actual transgender people to use the bathroom that makes sense.

Again, Shawn Stinson...was born a female. If he went into the women's restroom as HB2 demands, are you honestly trying to suggest there wouldn't be an absolute shitstorm of people feeling uncomfortable and wondering why there's "a man in the ladies room"? So, for him to not create mass hysteria and have the police called, he has to break the law and use the men's room. That's how much sense HB2 makes...

So, what is the alternative then? If people like Stinson (which to me is the actual transgender demographic...people who believe in their hearts that they were born the wrong gender and have taken steps to transition. It's not Uncle Larry putting on a dress to be funny) can't use the men's room. And it makes everyone uncomfortable if he goes into the women's room. Where do transgender people go? Oh, right...as far away from society as possible since they're just a bunch of sick, perverted freaks.

That's the endgame of the HB2 argument. And it's insulting to act like the rest of the world isn't smart enough to figure it out. It is willful discrimination against a group out of fear that a few people might take advantage. Hell, if that's the way we function now, shouldn't all of Wall Street be ostracized too?

 
I'm left handed and I demand all establishments have revolving doors. It doesn't matter the cost or what it will do the the building structurally. It doesn't matter that only 10% of the world population is left handed. The world should adjust to me!

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Now imagine the people demanding the change are less than 1% of the population.

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Insert a meme reply or "false equivalence")  here because someone on the fringe disagrees with common sense.

 
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slowdive21 said:
I'm left handed and I demand all establishments have revolving doors. It doesn't matter the cost or what it will do the the building structurally. It doesn't matter that only 10% of the world population is left handed. The world should adjust to me!

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Now imagine the people demanding the change are less than 1% of the population.


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Insert a meme reply or "false equivalence") here because someone on the fringe disagrees with common sense.
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Well, for one, there's no nexus between being left handed and revolving doors.

For two, no one is asking businesses to spend any money on bathrooms just to allow transgender people to continue using the bathroom in which they feel most comfortable. You know, like they've already been doing without incident for the previous however many years there's been transgender people and public bathrooms.
 
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RedvsBlue said:
Well, for one, there's no nexus between being left handed and revolving doors.

For two, no one is asking businesses to spend any money on bathrooms just to allow transgender people to continue using the bathroom in which they feel most comfortable. You know, like they've already been doing without incident for the previous however many years there's been transgender people and public bathrooms.
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1) Revolving doors can use either hand or both hands where regular doors usually require the right hand. The reason I said revolving doors is because it is a universal door ie the same as a universal communal bathroom with no gender requirements.

2) Yes, in Chicago people are complaining because single stall bathrooms with signs that state "family" or "unisex" are being removed because they do not have the boy boy/girl girl logo on the sign. That is like a guy with a cane complaining about the disabled sign not being inclusive because it does not show every variation of disabilities. It costs everyone money and time.

Remember this thread is about Target policy, not HB2. Some of you are clouding the issue by making it about NC.

 
slowdive21 said:
1) Revolving doors can use either hand or both hands where regular doors usually require the right hand. The reason I said revolving doors is because it is a universal door ie the same as a universal communal bathroom with no gender requirements.

2) Yes, in Chicago people are complaining because single stall bathrooms with signs that state "family" or "unisex" are being removed because they do not have the boy boy/girl girl logo on the sign. That is like a guy with a cane complaining about the disabled sign not being inclusive because it does not show every variation of disabilities. It costs everyone money and time.

Remember this thread is about Target policy, not HB2. Some of you are clouding the issue by making it about NC.
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You're talking in circles but ok, sure let's talk about Target. A company that decided, independently, to make a statement saying their customers were free to use whichever bathroom they were more comfortable in. They weren't forced to do anything by any groups and they didn't spend any money doing this. Well, aside from the salary of an employee to write up the press release.

So, tell me, how were they forced to spend any money on "revolving doors"? They weren't. You're talking about a separate issue here involving Chicago, not Target's voluntary statement regarding their own bathrooms, so do you want to stay on topic regarding the Target bathrooms or talk about complaints in Chicago?
 
RedvsBlue said:
You're talking in circles but ok, sure let's talk about Target. A company that decided, independently, to make a statement saying their customers were free to use whichever bathroom they were more comfortable in. They weren't forced to do anything by any groups and they didn't spend any money doing this. Well, aside from the salary of an employee to write up the press release.

So, tell me, how were they forced to spend any money on "revolving doors"? They weren't. You're talking about a separate issue here involving Chicago, not Target's voluntary statement regarding their own bathrooms, so do you want to stay on topic regarding the Target bathrooms or talk about complaints in Chicago?
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I'm not talking in circles. I think most people are against HB2. I was addressing the general issue, acknowledging that it is separate from the initial reason for the thread, and explaining the cost/actions needed to bend to the will of people that are noting more than statistical outlier. I'm sorry you couldn't follow what I was saying.

In terms of the target policy: Their policy creates discrimination by only allowing self-identifying transgender people to use a different restroom. If they were really for equality anyone could use any bathroom they would like to without moral or legal repercussions. If they are going to call the cops on a genetic male using a women's restroom, then they are hypocrites.

 
You can pull the stem off an apple and paint it orange but it's still an apple.

I'm not against transgenders. I'm against people who are not the majority try and force everyone else to please them and make concessions for them as if they deserve special treatment. This is how problems start, very small. Give someone an inch they take it a mile. Then others want to be treated special and unique above all others. Then one day you have a major lawsuit because a normal guy goes in the ladies room and sues for being thrown out saying "I feel like a woman, prove I don't. I just started my journey". Then you have to make rules like transgenders can go in other bathrooms if they are dressed as that gender, or have had surgery, a note from a psychiatrist.

Everyone says they need to be made comfortable, but what about the people made uncomfortable?
 
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