What really happened with the Dreamcast?

lilboo

lilboo

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This is probably..
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but I really never quite understood what happened.

Why did the Dreamcast fail and cause Sega to stop producing consoles?

I've heard ONE of the biggest reasons was because of piracy. I've also heard this was not true. I can believe both statements; I know piracy was really easy on the Dreamcast, but at the same time it was also really easy on the PSone & Saturn if I'm not mistaken and they seemed to do ok...well, the PSone at least.

Was it too expensive for it's time? If I remember correctly, this came out at $400? Now a days that's a typical price, but this was also 7 years ago. It's not like Sega wasn't around for YEARS and didn't have a large userbase that didn't purchse the DC on day one...

So, what happened?
It seems like the DC is considered one of the best consoles of our time (some say before the SNES, some say after it) and yet, how did this fail? Did a lot of people become in love with the DC after it stopped production? When you could go to a store or a yard sale and pick up a Dreamcast for $50? Hell, I picked up a DC for $5 at a flea market.

Again, sorry if this is
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but I just want to hear what others have to say in regards to this.
 
I belive that EA refusing to publish games on the DC had something to do with it along with retail support being slim. I remeber going into a EBgames st the time the dreamcast and ps2 were both still going strong and the PS2 had section 4 times bigger than the DC devotee to it.
 
The rise of DVD made the PS2 very attractive to owners, plus Sony over-promised the quality of games, so people waited.

The controller looked ugly, and EA didn't help it out, either.
 
So, then..is it because of lack of software sales? Or because not enough companies developed enough games, thus, DC really having nothing to sell?
 
I'd think it's because so many people held off on the system in anticipation of the Playstation 2, since that system was hyped teh shit out of back in even like... 1997. The Dreamcast was $200, which wasn't a lot, and it had a fuckload of good games, barring the lack of EA releases.
 
Well for me it was the fact that I had FF VIII, RE 3, Breath of Fire IV, Chrono Cross and FF IX to hold me off until the PS2.

I liked Power Stone, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and a few others, but the DC represented a lot of unutilized potential to me. There could have been some amazing JRPGs and adventure/platformers on that thing, but it never came to be.

Plus I think Sega was pretty hosed before the DC.
 
Piracy on the DC was MUCH easier than it was on the PS1. For the DC, you could play burned games without modding your system. For the PS1, I believe you needed to get a mod device.

The Dreamcast launched at $200.

[quote name='johnmirra']I belive that EA refusing to publish games on the DC had something to do with

it along with retail support being slim. I remeber going into a EBgames st the time the dreamcast and ps2 were both still going strong and the PS2 had section 4 times bigger than the DC devotee to it.[/QUOTE]

I think EA's official stance was that they felt screwed with the whole Saturn issue... that they spent time developing for it and never saw good returns. But there's also another issue I remember reading about in the Official Dreamcast Magazine where Sega said they would use some video chip or technology from EA but ended up using a different chip in the end.

I honestly think it was the PS2's hype that killed the DC. I mean, the PS1 was a huge success so most people thought the PS2 would continue the trend (which it did... after a year or two). This is also where average Joe gamer came into play because he didn't know jack shit about Sega but knew tons about Playstation because that's the system he (and all of his friends) had. Add in DVD playback (DVD players at the time were $200 alone so $300 for a gaming/DVD system is damn nice) to attract those on the fence and you get people who jump ship. And as people jumped ship, so did developers/publishers.
 
[quote name='Chacrana']I'd think it's because so many people held off on the system in anticipation of the Playstation 2, since that system was hyped teh shit out of back in even like... 1997. The Dreamcast was $200, which wasn't a lot, and it had a fuckload of good games, barring the lack of EA releases.[/QUOTE]

Sega was far in the red when the system was released for one thing, the Saturn had cost them dearly in money and customer loyalty since tons felt screwed over by the system's sudden demise after shelling out some heavy money. Then EA says no, which means no Madden or other hot EA properties. Then finally HYPE, good God was the ps2 hyped to hell. I walked in a gamestop and a guy was doing a full blown soap box rant surrounded by people about how the Playstation 2 was the second coming of Jesus and the dreamcast was a joke. He was screaming it so hard he was sweating!


Also back on the Saturn I do remember a lot of talk of oh if the dreamcast goes south Sega will just pull out like they did with the saturn and 32X , i'm not wasting my money on something that won't be around for more then a few years. So looks like they just fell victim to their own reputation.
 
I love the Dreamcast. And yeah, the PS2 hype took it out. One of my friends did run out and buy one the day after launch because he came over and played mine. He was like "I gotta have this!!" PS2 had ass games at launch. It was basically Tekken Tag, DoA2 Hardcore, and a bunch of absolute garbage. DVD playback was the killer app, as well as being called Playstation 2, the GOD machine that could run Star Wars : The Phantom Menace in real time. It was like jacking into the Matrix. :roll:

At least it didn't take too long to get some really great games rolling on it. Kinda reminds me of the early days of the 360, in which there were a bunch of shoddy ports and shoddy games in general.

For the record, I bought my Saturn when the system was on life support and got a ton of sweet deals on games and accessories. I loved that system, so I wasn't hesitant to buy a DC.
 
Hmmm. I never knew the PS2 is what (helped) kill the DC.
I guess it does make sense because I do remember the insane amount of hype it got back then. DVD + Video Games = :hot:. I remember that now.

So did Sega lose just way too much money because of this, and thus, stopped production & gave up entirely on producing consoles? :whistle2:k
 
[quote name='lilboo']So did Sega lose just way too much money because of this, and thus, stopped production & gave up entirely on producing consoles? :whistle2:k[/QUOTE]

Pretty much, in the US at least. It kept going in Japan for a long time after that.
 
[quote name='lilboo']Hmmm. I never knew the PS2 is what (helped) kill the DC.
I guess it does make sense because I do remember the insane amount of hype it got back then. DVD + Video Games = :hot:. I remember that now.
[/QUOTE]

I remember it - the day after the Dreamcast launched *BAM* Playstation 2 revealed. Expert strategy by Sony.
 
Easy.
  • No help from EA, Square (probably others, but these are the biggies)
  • First party titles that sometimes varied in quality (although this isn't a DC only thing)
  • Partially ahead of its time (the VMU is still an awesome idea, but would have worked better with a proper handheld from Sega to compliment it)
  • PS2 hype probably dampened potential sales (although that's in the gamer demographic only...but I guess at this time gaming was less mainstream than it is now, so this probably hurt more than I give it credit for)
  • PS2 release DID hurt for several reasons - support from EA/Square, DVD inclusion, etc
  • Not futureproof enough - the lack of a dual joystick controller would have proven disastrous
  • Internal problems at Sega (losing money)

It was a nice system with some decent games and some innovative ideas, but it simply lacked the software. And since Sony started playing the tech card with the PS2, that only hurt it even more.
 
Yup. It was Sega's (justified) reputation for abandoning hardware soon after launch, plus the hype over the upcoming PlayStation 2 stealing Dreamcast's thunder.

It was a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. Still, all those people who waited to buy because of Sega's reputation were essentially right, weren't they. Sega pulled the plug and ran scared at the first sign of competition.

Such a shame because the Dreamcast packed a bunch of great games into such a ridiculously short life.
 
The Dreamcast did pretty well at launch. Also it took a while before priacy become really common.

Other things not mentioned
1. A number of developers were stilling working on Saturn games when Sega cutted support. As a result they did not jump on DC
2. Dreamcast was doing worst in Japan.

Also worth noting that a lot of Dreamcast to PS2/Gamecube/xbox ports are still better on DC. Grandia looks better on DC, and Skies of Acradia has sound problem on gamecube
 
I remember getting my Dreamcast for X-mas in 99' and playing Soul Calibur on my parents' giant 50 inch TV and being absolutely blown away. I fucking LOVE Dreamcast.

It still infuriates me to this day that EBGames employees during the Dreamcast era were such turncoats.
I remember them hyping the SHIT out of DC from before its launch through X-mas 99, but then having the SAME employees calling me an idiot for buying DC games in early 2000 since the PS2 was going to be so "awesome". Though the PS2 really did turn out to be a fantastic console in the end, I remember it sitting in my entertainment center collecting dust for at least a year and a half while I was having a ball w/DC games like Samba De Amigo and all the SNK/Capcom fighting games. Such a shame DC didn't survive.

At least SEGA didn't stop making games. Although they have released some AWFUL games over the last few years, they have some great franchises I would hate to see disappear.
 
Oh come on. Does anyone here really think the DC could compete against the PS2? Be honest now.

Peter Moore might be a dick and did dick things, but he knew a sinking ship when he saw one.
 
[quote name='Strell']Does anyone here really think the DC could compete against the PS2?[/quote]Compete in what sense? Dreamcast would never have outsold the PS2, but you don't necessarily have to be "first" to make money. GameCube never had a realistic chance of unseating the PS2 either but it was still profitable for Nintendo. Xbox 360 and PS3 will likely never outsell the Wii but I don't see Microsoft and Sony rushing to abandon them.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']Compete in what sense? Dreamcast would never have outsold the PS2, but you don't necessarily have to be "first" to make money. GameCube never had a realistic chance of unseating the PS2 either but it was still profitable for Nintendo. Xbox 360 and PS3 will likely never outsell the Wii but I don't see Microsoft and Sony rushing to abandon them.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but Nintendo tends to always be profitable with their consoles because A) they either lose little money on each console sold OR make a profit, and B) because their software sales are always high for their own 1st party titles. I seem to remember Sega losing money on each DC sold, but honestly I'm not sure of that.

The whole argument about how "you don't need to be first to compete" has been a rallying cry for Nintendo fans since the N64 days, and any one of us will maintain that 30+ million sold around the world translates into a success, despite being measured against 100+ million PSOne systems. It's a factual statement, but it doesn't overcome the grim reality of pure sales, and it doesn't change the fact that the consoles still have to compete for business from developers in the form of software, either multiplatform or exclusives.

Don't confuse what I'm saying. The DC was pronounced DOA once the Playstation 2 dropped, and there was absolutely no way it could compete. None. I already outlined some reasons previously, and one of the major ones is lack of support from people like Square and EA.

It doesn't help that Sony is a master of yellow marketing. They spun Nintendo's infamous "the Gamecube can do 6 million polygons a second" spec into a total black hole of negative mudslinging, while still boasting their system could produce 75 million per second. And everyone who knows anything knows that Sony was fudging that fact left and right - Nintendo's figure was from an in-game situation, where as Sony's was basically a "how big a sphere we can make" situation.

Taking all of that into consideration, I'm sure it wouldn't take much for them to crush the Dreamcast's lack of power in comparison, as well as shoving big third party games down the throats of gamers everywhere.

Get epobirs in here. He knows WAY more about this sort of thing than I do.
 
The piracy thing is not the problem. I took a fancy to the DC and a few of its titles, and I've always regretted its demise. In reading up on that phenomenon, I've come to the conclusion that one of the main problems was succinctly included in Strell's bullets:
[quote name='Strell']
[*]Internal problems at Sega (losing money)[/QUOTE]
Sega had a lot riding on the DC for reasons that had nothing to do with the DC or competition in the console business itself. They had debts in other sectors of their business that they expected to be covered by profits from the DC simply because, hey, where else would they get the cash? These expectations led to the DC being viewed internally as a doomed project (by some) from 9/9/99 forward.
 
I think is a couple things.

First off Sega was pretty much in the red when they launched the Dreamcast because of the money they lost on the Saturn and all those Genesis add-ons. Also the fact piracy was rampant on the DC wasn't helping, meaning low sales on first-party games so Sega wasn't getting much money back besides hardware sales.

Also the PS2 hype and the DVD. To be blunt. Its a mix of Sega having no money, PS2 hype, and DVD (which you can say the DC not being future proof) is why it failed.
 
Sega's trend has always been ahead of the times so to speak, when Nintendo was still playing with 16 bit they tried the CD-Rom then,32x then the Saturn with a planned external DVD drive for the DC and so on but all there hardware was advance but yet not a whole lot of 3rd party support for it. Sad cause it was the first taste of online console gaming that people ever got.

I often said that the Xbox was a late cousin of the DC though i have no proof to back it up. I only think that cause of how close not the same but close the button layout was for both the DC and the Xbox, memory card port,and the DC ran on windows ce and the Xbox ran on a modified version of that.
 
I heard from a developer friend that EA didn't want to develop games for it because SEGA went with the PowerVR chip instead of 3dFX [there were 2 Katana prototypes] . He said the decision to go with PowerVR was probably because NEC was a Japanese company .

So I guess that's the 'real' real reason it failed .
 
[quote name='dothog']The piracy thing is not the problem. I took a fancy to the DC and a few of its titles, and I've always regretted its demise.
[/quote]it wasn't but it did help a little. it was one of the easiest consoles to pirate games from. and the fact that you didn't need a chip to play them was even worse. and with not enough 3rd party support, you're bound to crash eventually.. deja vu with the psp :cry:
 
[quote name='phear3d']it wasn't but it did help a little. it was one of the easiest consoles to pirate games from. and the fact that you didn't need a chip to play them was even worse. and with not enough 3rd party support, you're bound to crash eventually.. deja vu with the psp :cry:[/quote]

same holds true on the DS as far as the piracy goes. Rapid on that system more then the PSP
 
[quote name='bubbafett4hire']same holds true on the DS as far as the piracy goes. [/QUOTE]

No, you need a pass chip of some sort to do piracy on the DS.

When was the last time you burned a DS cart from your computer?
 
[quote name='bubbafett4hire']same holds true on the DS as far as the piracy goes. Rapid on that system more then the PSP[/quote]the other way around imo. with the ds, you need to have the R4/M3 which basically acts like a modchip. the psp on the other hand, is almost a dying console. same symptoms as the dreamcast but not entirely the same.
 
[quote name='Strell']No, you need a pass chip of some sort to do piracy on the DS.

When was the last time you burned a DS cart from your computer?[/quote]
about 20 mins ago when i dumped lego indie on my mem card, that's why i have 4 R4 flash carts with 2 gig cards for them but yet doing some lite mods you can rip the real DS game to the PC and you still need the PC just like burning a disc, to dump the games on to the flash cart as. I remember in the beginning of the DS hacking hardware mods and soft hack were used to dump the DS firmware to change it to a custom just like the PSP, but since the use of flash cart many of those old methods are just out dated
 
Like phear said, that R4 is essentially a mod chip. Just because it's not soldered onto a circuit board doesn't mean it's any less of a mod chip.
 
yes i know the whole mod chip thing i have about 15 years of playing with chips and such going back to the Genesis days when you could use rom re programmers to erase and reflash cartridges with BASIC.

Never the less yes piracy was a cause but not a big killer of the DC i remember when my buddy got his PS2 when they came out and he gave me his DC with some copyed games he had. A few years later i had sold it a baught a new one from gamestop still in the wrapping only to find out right out of the box these copied games booted right away with out a chip or boot loader
 
I would go and get a DC these days. So many good games and they are cheap now. Don't tell anyone but from my standpoint I liked the DC way better then the N64.
 
[quote name='kube00']I would go and get a DC these days. So many good games and they are cheap now. Don't tell anyone but from my standpoint I liked the DC way better then the N64.[/quote]

Other then Golden eye i thought the N64 sucked there was alot of good games but not like the DC or the PS one. I know the whole deal feel through with Sony other wise the N64 would have been CD based and i think it was FF7 would have been on the N64 but would have taken over 20 cartridges compared to the Psones 3 -4 .

I still love the old DC TV ads Shhhhh...it's thinking
 
[quote name='Richlough']I heard from a developer friend that EA didn't want to develop games for it because SEGA went with the PowerVR chip instead of 3dFX [there were 2 Katana prototypes] . He said the decision to go with PowerVR was probably because NEC was a Japanese company .

So I guess that's the 'real' real reason it failed .[/QUOTE]

While NEC's nationality may have been part of the reason that Sega dropped 3dfx, as the Sega Japan-Sega US harmful rivalry (Or in-fighting if you prefer) was mentioned in an interview with a former Sega President, the primary reason occurred when 3dfx went public. When submitting the appropriate documents, 3dfx had to list what their current projects were. Rather than using the legally permissible phrases along the lines of "Working with Sega on a classified project," the boneheads at 3dfx reiterated all of the terms of their classified, still-open (As in, not signed yet) agreement in the company's public filing. Needless to say, Sega was pissed, and they dropped 3dfx in favor of NEC.

3dfx's filing documents (They reproduced the Sega contract in Exhibit 10.9 TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT W/SEGA)
GameSpy Special Feature summarizing the whole mess.

So would 3dfx have saved the Dreamcast? Who knows (I'd lean towards "probably not"). If anything, the deal falling through pretty much sealed 3dfx's fate, as I doubt anyone would want to do business with a company that made such a obviously boneheaded mistake.
 
[quote name='bubbafett4hire']I still love the old DC TV ads Shhhhh...it's thinking[/quote]

I didn't think that was clever at all, since it highlighted one of the few "weaknesses" of disc-based games -- load times.

And as an aside, piracy was a *huge* problem on PS-1, but that didn't slow down its momentum. Sony had deeper pockets than Sega, and Sega just couldn't recover from some of its past and current mistakes.
 
[quote name='Cao Cao']While NEC's nationality may have been part of the reason that Sega dropped 3dfx, as the Sega Japan-Sega US harmful rivalry (Or in-fighting if you prefer) was mentioned in an interview with a former Sega President, the primary reason occurred when 3dfx went public. When submitting the appropriate documents, 3dfx had to list what their current projects were. Rather than using the legally permissible phrases along the lines of "Working with Sega on a classified project," the boneheads at 3dfx reiterated all of the terms of their classified, still-open (As in, not signed yet) agreement in the company's public filing. Needless to say, Sega was pissed, and they dropped 3dfx in favor of NEC.

3dfx's filing documents (They reproduced the Sega contract in Exhibit 10.9 TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT W/SEGA)
GameSpy Special Feature summarizing the whole mess.

So would 3dfx have saved the Dreamcast? Who knows (I'd lean towards "probably not"). If anything, the deal falling through pretty much sealed 3dfx's fate, as I doubt anyone would want to do business with a company that made such a obviously boneheaded mistake.[/QUOTE]

Thank you , when I mention 3dFX when talking about DC people always look at me like I'm crazy .
3dFX also lost an R&D cycle on the PC trying to come up with the DC chip , that is almost certainly what ruined them .
 
To what I either read or watched, I agreed what was said about the fall of the Dreamcast. Game companies were still developing games for the Saturn. But when the Dreamcast came on the scene, Sega decided to pull the plug on the Saturn and continue with the Dreamcast. This decision was the ultimate downfall of the Dreamcast. With developers investing time and money into projects, this move wasted all their efforts, thus discouraging any one else to make games for Sega.

And now you know...the rest of the story.
 
These things caused the DC to fall short of its potential...

1) Lack of EA support - Love them or hate them, they are relevant and the biggest dog in the yard. Without EA they started at a disadvantage.

2) Piracy - It was a huge deal. I live in a podunk little area and I knew a guy with almost 100 burned games while the DC was still in the middle of its life cycle.

3) The online strategy was just a little too early - The fact that online gaming became segmented (broadband vs. dial-up on Quake III being the best example), really hurt the DC. Quake III was the DC's Halo 2/3. It was huge, but the advantage broadband users had over dial-up was pretty bad. Dial-up was still the connection option of choice for most people because broadband just wasn't as widely available then. The DC still had a better online strategy than the PS2 did and it wasn't until Xbox Live that we saw what consoles online could really do.

4) The controller - I still don't know why they didn't implement dual analog and why the thing was so bulky.

5) PS2/DVD anticipation - The PS2 was the first DVD player for many people and when you couple that with the ability to play games it was an attractive option for many.

6) Sega's history of fucking up everything they did afer the Genesis - Sega CD, 32X, Nomad, CDX, Saturn. They pretty much screwed themselves by pushing add-ons and by the botched Saturn launch. Even with the DC lanuch being a success, they had a lot of history to overcome and it became too much.
 
[quote name='depascal22']The horrible controller didn't help. Anytime you get a d-pad that cuts into people's fingers, it's a recipe for disaster.[/quote]

A couple people blame the controller, but I want to remind everyone of way back when the PSX launched and we all thought the controllers were retarded and had nasty hand-cramps because we didn't know how to hold it. I think controller design has less impact than some would believe.
 
[quote name='SeanNOLA']A couple people blame the controller, but I want to remind everyone of way back when the PSX launched and we all thought the controllers were retarded and had nasty hand-cramps because we didn't know how to hold it. I think controller design has less impact than some would believe.[/quote]

I was never one of those people. I loved the PlayStation's controller from day 1 and loved the Dual Shock even more. I'd say the controller was as big of an influence for me as anything else.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']These things caused the DC to fall short of its potential...

1
3) The online strategy was just a little too early - The fact that online gaming became segmented (broadband vs. dial-up on Quake III being the best example), really hurt the DC. Quake III was the DC's Halo 2/3. It was huge, but the advantage broadband users had over dial-up was pretty bad. Dial-up was still the connection option of choice for most people because broadband just wasn't as widely available then. The DC still had a better online strategy than the PS2 did and it wasn't until Xbox Live that we saw what consoles online could really do.
[/QUOTE]

The broadband adapter was only available for a short time and never at a B&M , otherwise I would have one .
 
What was so disappointing for the Dreamcast controller was that you had the awesome Genesis 6 button and the even better Saturn controller and then they screwed it all up. As soon as I saw it, it looked like Sega was just riding Nintendo's jock. It looks way to similar to the 64 controller.
 
I actually heard rumors that sega had tried making a deal with the release groups that were uploading DC games because the piracy had gotten so bad. Like someone said you didn't need a modchip and you didn't have to modify the system in any way to play a burnt game. Then the PS2 came out and it was the final nail in the coffin really.
 
[quote name='depascal22']What was so disappointing for the Dreamcast controller was that you had the awesome Genesis 6 button and the even better Saturn controller and then they screwed it all up. As soon as I saw it, it looked like Sega was just riding Nintendo's jock. It looks way to similar to the 64 controller.[/quote]


To be honest, I never thought the Saturn Pad was anything great. It wasn't bad, but not great IMO.
 
Well my dreamcast was shoved away into the attack with Tennis 2k2 in it many many years ago. Just moved and rediscovered the beast.. Started it up and ran the game no problem. As opposed to my 360 which for some reason the psu over heated and had to buy another on off of ebay.
 
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