Why Aren't We Talking About Union Busting?

[quote name='Clak']:rofl: It really does. *snort* Dem turtles is unionizing masta shreddah. *snort*[/QUOTE]

Dammit Clak, he says TOITLES.
 
[quote name='Clak']Would you feel different if this guy had done this for something like the Howard Stern show?[/QUOTE]

No. I wouldn't feel any different about it. We know the Governor of Wisconsin is a left hating Republican. We don't need fake phone calls to "prove" it.

Besides, what point are we trying to prove? That we're just as shady as the right when it comes to "gotcha" journalism?

Is it even journalism when you pretend to be someone else? Why are you guys treating this like anything more than a fluff piece that might or not be doctored. The source has zero integrity but you're treating it EXACTLY like the right treated the ACORN tapes. They're different peoples with different motives but everyone acted like they're real journalism. Just stop.
 
[quote name='Strell']Dammit Clak, he says TOITLES.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, my childhood memories are being erased to make room for all the adult BS.
 
Well supposedly the guy is a journalist, which with how that title is thrown around these days probably doesn't mean much. I doubt it's doctored because if it were Walker's office would claim it is, which they haven't at all that I'm aware of.

I don't think it's anything really, it's revealing, though not really of anyhting we basically didn't already know. The most damming thing I think is that the guy got through when some nobody like one of us probably couldn't have. Apparently the Koch brothers have this man's ear.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Yes.[/QUOTE]

That's garbage and you know it.

I wrote for my high school newspaper and we'd never consider interviewing someone using another name. It's dishonest and it puts the journalistic integrity of your publication at sake. If this is where journalism is heading, then we're in much bigger trouble than you all realize. And if you're accepting "news" from people like this, then you're a fool at best.

As for the Koch brothers having one guys ear, it's still not anything revealing. I bet even Obama has a list of four or five donors that he'll call back as soon as he gets a chance.
 
[quote name='Clak']Well supposedly the guy is a journalist, which with how that title is thrown around these days probably doesn't mean much. I doubt it's doctored because if it were Walker's office would claim it is, which they haven't at all that I'm aware of.

I don't think it's anything really, it's revealing, though not really of anyhting we basically didn't already know. The most damming thing I think is that the guy got through when some nobody like one of us probably couldn't have. Apparently the Koch brothers have this man's ear.[/QUOTE]

Minus the fact that he didn't even recognize the guys voice as not being Koch?
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']Minus the fact that he didn't even recognize the guys voice as not being Koch?[/QUOTE]

Met the guy a couple times at fundraisers but probably just remembers his name with a whole lot of zeroes on a check. Maybe if he had seen his signature, it would've clicked.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']Minus the fact that he didn't even recognize the guys voice as not being Koch?[/QUOTE] I don't mean they spend hours everyday talking about how they're going to take down the libruls. I mean that he was told it was Koch and suddenly he had time to take that call. The Koch brothers obviously have sway with him, which knowing what they're up to says a lot about Walker.
 
Put the journalism aside. There was no deliberate editing in order to form a narrative that doesn't exist. What the Buffalo Beast writer did was deceptive but, in terms of ethics, far, far ahead of what conservatives consider journalistic standards of integrity.

Don't let yourself be caught unsurprised that wealth gets access to people in positions of power. Walker has shown who he serves, and who he is responsible to. fuck the working class, fuck the state, fuck the people. He is the extended arm of the oligarchy. Forget the small details and recognize that much.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I wrote for my high school newspaper[/QUOTE]

Cool story bro. What is the biggest story you ever broke? Annual Pep Rally a success?
 
Don't forget, Walker campaigned for Governor promising to pass a bill that would end middle of the night votes. He argued lobbyists would have too much influence after 10 PM.

Guess it's not so bad once your bros are doing it to pass something you luvzor.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Cool story bro. What is the biggest story you ever broke? Annual Pep Rally a success?[/QUOTE]

Why does it matter? The fact that I've actually done something that could be considered real journalism and not this "gotcha" bullshit?

Should I have called the principal pretending to be some bill collector just to see if he started sweating? Should I have called a couple cheerleaders pretending to be planned parenthood with their test results just to see if they said something embarrassing?

I'm disappointed in you, msut. You were at the head of the ACORN isn't all that bad parade and now you allow yourself to get sucked into this bullshit like it's somehow better or different.

Myke, did this audio clip really change your opinion of the guy? Did anyone here change their mind about this guy? This audio clip is doing exactly what the right wants it to do. It will be impossible to show that the left is any better than the right when it comes to slimy "gotcha" tactics. Good job, guys. You got outraged by a faker that exposed absolutely nothing.

EDIT -- fuck it. I don't have a fancy college diploma in something that's completely unrelated to this subject so I have no right to talk down to anybody. You guys are so right that this is exactly the kind of reporting we need in the 21st Century. Everyone should just be on guard when they're talking on the phone. Personal and professional integrity have no bearing when it comes to getting that all important scoop. Even when it's a big scoop of hot steamy shit.
 
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[quote name='depascal22']Myke, did this audio clip really change your opinion of the guy? Did anyone here change their mind about this guy? This audio clip is doing exactly what the right wants it to do. It will be impossible to show that the left is any better than the right when it comes to slimy "gotcha" tactics. Good job, guys. You got outraged by a faker that exposed absolutely nothing. [/QUOTE]

Did you know that Walker thought about planting protestors? I didn't.

Did you know that Walker was going to trick Democrats into coming back under the guise of compromise while really ramming the bill down Wisconsinite throats? I didn't.

I think we should hold politicians, like Governors, to the highest standard possible.
 
No, it didn't change my mind - but it did erase the plausible doubt that he was genuinely interested in the fiscal health of the state, and instead exposed that he's a servant to the oligarchs posturing as a populist.

It's verification of my suppositions. Something we rarely get in politics.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Why does it matter?[/quote]

You tell me you brought it up.

The fact that I've actually done something that could be considered real journalism
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Considered by?

You were at the head of the ACORN isn't all that bad parade and now you allow yourself to get sucked into this bullshit like it's somehow better or different.
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It is different, quite different in fact.

You guys are so right that this is exactly the kind of reporting we need in the 21st Century.
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For your next trick you will declare undercover cops immoral dirtbags.
 
[quote name='Strell']I think I am seriously missing ...what the argument here is about anymore.[/QUOTE]

It sort of morphed into "what is the nature of journalism".

With a side of misunderstanding exactly what was wrong about the ACORN scandal.

Irhari nailed all the substance concerning what was actually on topic.

Walker basically fucking admits that this whole thing is about his own "Reagan moment" and somehow it is invalid because a real reporter would call him up and ask him not to lie?

Side note: That is pretty much how "journalism" works in this country anyway, so depascal has a bit of a point there.
 
Come to think of it, how is what he did any different than someone going undercover to uncover something like the mistreatment of animals? You're lying to get hired and into the organization, then you've got your "gotcha moment" when the footage is aired in some news report.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Did you know that Walker thought about planting protestors? I didn't.[/quote]
Thoughts don't equal deeds. Come on now... would you honestly feel better if he had said "Wow, I never thought of that!"

Did you know that Walker was going to trick Democrats into coming back under the guise of compromise while really ramming the bill down Wisconsinite throats? I didn't.
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I like how having a majority consensus is suddenly "ramming bills down people's throats". I'll have to remember this one. I'll be the first to speak out for the rights of the minority and such - but when the Health Care reform was on the table, all we kept hearing was how it was about getting a "up or down" vote. Now that the Democrats' power is slipping, suddenly, the Republicans are ramming bills down people's throats, eh?
 
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/article_6eb8ed26-55d9-5af7-a74e-8f79692fc1d4.html

"It has to start by getting the facts right. Wisconsin’s public service employees are not overpaid relative to their private sector counterparts. Rutgers University professor Jeffrey Keefe has done the analysis. (See his complete study on our Employment Policy Research Network website: www.employmentpolicy.org.) Controlling for education and other standard human capital variables he found that Wisconsin’s public sector workers earn 8.2 percent less than their private sector counterparts in wages and salaries. Taking fringe benefits into account shrinks the difference to 4.2 percent. Thus, public sector workers have lower wages and higher fringe benefits (yes, pensions and health care benefits are the two standouts). But overall, they are not overpaid compared to the private sector. No easy scapegoat here.
A second scapegoat in play is the public sector collective bargaining and arbitration process. I have studied these processes intensively, first in Wisconsin (remember the three day 1969 Madison firefighters strike?) and then in New York state and nationally. In a recent nationwide study I found that arbitration settlements basically mirror outcomes negotiated in states without arbitration and those settled voluntarily in collective bargaining. This is not surprising because Wisconsin’s statute, like most others, requires arbitrators to use these comparisons along with cost of living, ability to pay, and other objective factors in shaping their awards. No scapegoat here either."
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So there are some actual solutions in there, but I doubt this will be resolved rationally.

Anyhoo, anyone else ever read the Shock Doctrine?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I like how having a majority consensus is suddenly "ramming bills down people's throats". I'll have to remember this one. I'll be the first to speak out for the rights of the minority and such - but when the Health Care reform was on the table, all we kept hearing was how it was about getting a "up or down" vote. Now that the Democrats' power is slipping, suddenly, the Republicans are ramming bills down people's throats, eh?[/QUOTE]

Obama ran on health care reform. We got health care reform.

Walker ran on balancing the budget. He refused to balance the budget when the unions conceded the fiscal demands he made of them. He insisted upon the necessity to take their organizing rights away as well - something that has nothing to do with either what he campaigned on nor balancing budgets.

You are, as usual, comparing Sam's Choice to Great Value.

Msut, haven't read Shock Doctrine, but have meant to. Klein's kinda hard for me to stomach - I found No Logo heavily pretentious.
 
The way I see it, it is as simple as this:

Do you want a large middle class or large economic inequality?

Do you think that unions promote the strength of the middle class?

If you answer yes to either of these questinos, you ought not be anti union.

As a public defender, I am a member of a union. The same union as steel workers, police, and district attorneys. I hate my union. I think it makes it hard for us to fire those who may not be putting forth their best effort. But to make them illegal does more harm than good IMO. I am all about workers rights and freedom of assembly and giving essentially powerless laborors the strength associated with collective bargaining.

Still I can understand anti-union position. It is sort of against a free-market pure capitalist idea.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Walker ran on balancing the budget. He refused to balance the budget when the unions conceded the fiscal demands he made of them. He insisted upon the necessity to take their organizing rights away as well - something that has nothing to do with either what he campaigned on nor balancing budgets.[/QUOTE]

Yeah most fact checkers slapped the OGP talking point that Walker was doing exactly what he ran on.

Apparently Walker also totally ran on privatizing state facilities, selling them without any bids to whomever his rubber stamp Republican Legislature wants to.

I admit I was being a little tongue in cheek in using that stupid throat shove shit. But suddenly when Republicans get majorities they get a 'mandate' and have the mandate to end collective bargaining even though it's opposed by huge majorities.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Yeah most fact checkers slapped the OGP talking point that Walker was doing exactly what he ran on.

Apparently Walker also totally ran on privatizing state facilities, selling them without any bids to whomever his rubber stamp Republican Legislature wants to.

I admit I was being a little tongue in cheek in using that stupid throat shove shit. But suddenly when Republicans get majorities they get a 'mandate' and have the mandate to end collective bargaining even though it's opposed by huge majorities.[/QUOTE]

They were also comparing a year long process to one where they wanted the vote to take place in like three days.
 
That's the other aspect. Walker assumed office 7 weeks ago and wanted collective bargaining taken away 2 weeks ago.

Obama passed health care reform after 14 months in office.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's the other aspect. Walker assumed office 7 weeks ago and wanted collective bargaining taken away 2 weeks ago.

Obama passed health care reform after 14 months in office.[/QUOTE]

The term "Orwellian" is often overused but I see no other that can be used to describe how conservatives abuse language.
 
Providence, RI just fired all of their public school teachers. Good job republifucks. I suppose this doesn't qualify as class warfare because it doesn't affect rich people.

Feels like I woke up in Ron Paul's wet dream this morning.

[quote name='pittpizza']Still I can understand anti-union position. It is sort of against a free-market pure capitalist idea.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's not anti-free market at all. If companies have the right to merge/incorporate and be able to leverage the market in their favor, then so should the workers. If unions are anti-free market, then so are corporations and walmart.
 
A pizza place in Wisconsin has been feeding the protesters for a few days now. They are swamped though and have opened up a page asking for donations. They will take online orders or you can just call and they will take your credit card info and make them some food. Very cool way of supporting these people if you do not live close enough to be there.

http://www.facebook.com/IansPizzaOnState?sk=app_6009294086#!/IansPizzaOnState

I called and donated and the only thing took 5 mins of my time.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Providence, RI just fired all of their public school teachers. Good job republifucks. I suppose this doesn't qualify as class warfare because it doesn't affect rich people.

Feels like I woke up in Ron Paul's wet dream this morning.

[/QUOTE]

Unless today was opposite day, I thought Providence has a Democrat for a Mayor and the school closings/layoffs are his idea to balance the budget there, but you could blame someone else if it makes you feel better right...

Edit: Moreover, if you think that is bad there look at Detroit. 50-60+ kids in a class potentially. Now that's a freaking awful idea, but they won't have to lay off anymore teachers because they will just quit to keep their sanity.
 
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[quote name='dohdough']Actually, it's not anti-free market at all. If companies have the right to merge/incorporate and be able to leverage the market in their favor, then so should the workers. If unions are anti-free market, then so are corporations and walmart.[/QUOTE]

It's not so much the assembly part that makes a union anti-free market. Groups of people should be able to get together to set a common price for their goods and services in a free-market. There's nothing wrong with that.

The issue comes up with the special protections that an organized union is provided under federal and state laws. If the factory boss comes in one day, decides he's tired of dealing with a particular union rep, he should be able to tell him to get out and fire anyone who disagrees with him (hiring whomever he wants in the process). The factory owner should not be forced to have to sit down with union reps to agree on wages and such (i.e: arbitration) - if they can't come to an agreement, the factory owner should be able to fire anyone who doesn't agree with his terms and hire people who do.

Now, and I know we'll agree on this, likewise, corporations shouldn't receive special favors/protections from the government either (tax breaks, money for hiring particular types/groups of people, etc., etc.)... doing so is also anti-free market.

[quote name='MSI Magus']A pizza place in Wisconsin has been feeding the protesters for a few days now. They are swamped though and have opened up a page asking for donations. They will take online orders or you can just call and they will take your credit card info and make them some food.[/QUOTE]

Hey, look - moochers that just happen to be union members. :D

[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']Unless today was opposite day, I thought Providence has a Democrat for a Mayor and the school closings/layoffs are his idea to balance the budget there, but you could blame someone else if it makes you feel better right...[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the fact that not a single teacher has yet been terminated at all... http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9LK2J1O0.htm

Mayor Angel Taveras, a Democrat who took office last month, has said repeatedly that city officials and the school board wanted "maximum flexibility" as they made budget decisions. His office said those decisions can't be made until they complete a review of the city's finances.

In the past, the district has routinely sent a few hundred layoff notices to teachers. Sending notices to all teachers allows officials more time to decide which of the city's 43 schools to close and how many teachers to permanently fire, city officials have said.
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Yeah they didn't fire all their teachers they sent layoff notices so if it comes to that they CAN fire all their teachers.

Not trying to justify it just explaining.
[quote name='Uncle Bob']
The factory owner should not be forced to have to sit down with union reps to agree on wages and such (i.e: arbitration) - if they can't come to an agreement, the factory owner should be able to fire anyone who doesn't agree with his terms and hire people who do.[/QUOTE]

Is that a negotiation?
 
What bullshit this is.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/rh.../?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+Today's+paper+A+to+Z

So rather than give them layoff notices, they basically terminate everyone after this school yeah is over. then they decide who will basically be rehired. Of course, no thought was given to those who won't be rehired. now they'll have it on record that they were terminated, which will look absolutely wonderful when they try to get a job teaching somewhere else.
 
Yes I too wish corporations and the people who worked for them were finally given some measure of power. Too long have they labored under the iron fist that is the common man, who has rightfully abused his improper amount of influence to bend his will into reality. That's what we call monopolistic dominion. Igarchy. Ology. Ism.

Why, pretty soon the pimple ridden kid in the drive thru won't be able to afford that third Porsche he's always wanted.

We're not China, dammit! We're the USA! No longer will the well-established ruling class of the common man bloat his great wanton destruction upon all that is our nation! IT'S TIME TO CULL THE MIDDLE BACK DOWN INTO THE HOLE IT CRAWLED OUT OFF, DIRECTLY BENEATH THE WEALTH AND POWER AND GOLDEN THRONES IT HAS RIGHTFULLY STOLEN FROM THOSE IN STATIONS ABOVE IT.

Edit: Bout goddamn time the "teachers" get their due. I'm sick of those fuckers. What have they ever done for me? I don't remember a TEACHER putting out a fire, or arresting criminals. Buncha pansies. Can't even build dams, and when was the last time you heard of them performing complex surgery? NEVER, that's when! Shit dawg, I aint even mad.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Yeah they didn't fire all their teachers they sent layoff notices so if it comes to that they CAN fire all their teachers.

Not trying to justify it just explaining.


Is that a negotiation?[/QUOTE]
No, these weren't notices of layoff.
 
I mean a pipe burst in my house and I called up a teacher and said TEACH IT TO BE FIXED, and the teacher didn't even have the decency to apologize that it couldn't do that. And I kept screaming IT'S 4 AM, WHY ARE YOU EVEN SLEEPING? THAT'S WHAT COMMIES DO!

And you want me to feel SORRY for them? Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure is Hitlercrats in here!
 
[quote name='Strell']Edit: Bout goddamn time the "teachers" get their due. I'm sick of those fuckers. What have they ever done for me? I don't remember a TEACHER putting out a fire, or arresting criminals. Buncha pansies.[/QUOTE]

I've *actually* seen this written, almost verbatim, the other week. Multiple times.
 
FoxNation.png


Couldn't they have picked a picture that didn't contrast with the headline?
 
[quote name='IRHari']
FoxNation.png


Couldn't they have picked a picture that didn't contrast with the headline?[/QUOTE]

The knives are hidden under the cheese hats.
 
You mean to tell me that large groups of pissed off people can sometimes get violent? The hell you say...

The only thing that worries me is that Walker could see something like a angry mob as reason to send in the national guard, and if that happens, I don't even want to think of the outcome. Cause you know, no innocent person has ever been killed by a member of the national guard.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Providence, RI just fired all of their public school teachers. Good job republifucks. I suppose this doesn't qualify as class warfare because it doesn't affect rich people.[/QUOTE]

Wait, what? Republicans....in Rhode Island? Is this a joke? I don't know what Rhode Island you're referring to, but the one I live next to is bluer than the ocean. I think you can count the number of Republicans in the RI General Assembly on both hands.

As far as the Union mess goes, I think they should at least give them the chance to negotiate some concessions, rather than eliminate them entirely. If you can't come to terms on reasonable concessions, then fuck 'em, get rid of them at that point.

Here in CT, we are broker than broke as a result of public union workers with pensions we can't afford to pay. Our newly elected Governor says he is going to negotiate concessions with the unions to help balance the budget, but everyone knows he is just paying lip service, he was bought by the unions a long time ago. I know people who get paid 60 - 80 dollars an hour to plow snow, and get to retire at 45 with full benefits and pension, it's ludicrous. Now, as a result, we're on the verge of the biggest tax hike in state history, and our taxes are already amongst the highest in the nation! Worse yet, we just had special elections to fill some vacant state house and senate seats that opened up as a result of appointments in the new administration, and 7 of the nine seats went back to the same Democrats that people are bitching will raise our taxes.

It's such a joke, the CT lawmakers are going to squeeze the middle class out of the state, and all that will be left is the super rich in Fairfield county that don't pay taxes due to tax shelters and creative accounting, and the welfare recipients that make up the majority of the population of all of our urban cities. Me, I'm heading out to Las Vegas with my wife next year to start a new life.
 
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