Xbox One on the way. DRM removed, more details to come.

[Erad30]

I think another thing Xbox One supporters are ignoring that is a huge deal is their complete lack of Indie support (and no, having Minecraft after it's already been a massive success doesn't count, if Notch had only Microsoft to turn to it wouldn't have gotten made). Will those Indie games sell systems initially? Probably not. But If all the Xbox One has are games from the big AAA publishers, which are all puling back on the amount of titles, relying mostly on a few safe big bets every year, you might get a lot of returned systems with those huge gaps in-between games to play.

 

[Blaster man]

Regardless of how much money he might have lost, without the used market he'd have $693 less. Clearly he isn't interested in playing those games anymore, so having $693 is much better than having those games.

Once again I don't understand the logic. He spent $2,250+ on games if bought at an average of $30, and let's be honest it's probably higher, and it is considered a great deal to get $690?
For those of us that don't have gynormus backlogs the used game thing is a non issue. And the fact that more than likely most of our main retailers will be preferred retailers where you more than likely will be able to trade.
Don't understand why this is such a big deal. But I guess it is to some people.

The price paid is irrelevant, it's a sunk cost. He has already paid that amount (whatever it may be) and he can't get it back. With the used game market, he can get $690 for stuff he no longer wants. Without the used game market he can't get anything for stuff he no longer wants. Would you rather have $690 or $0?

Additionally, you just pulled the $30 average out of nowhere. My average price per game is close to $10.

Is this really going to be a problem? I am pretty sure you can trade X1 games into GameStop still.

Yes. My cost per game is also around the $10 mark, mostly from pawn shops or Target clearance, though I pay more if it's a harder to find title or something I can't wait to play (Dead Island Riptide, Bioshock Infinite, and Soul Hackers were my last few preorders). But I can't buy games from a pawn for the X1, I have to either buy new at retail (ie pay $60, since there will be no motivation to lower prices anywhere near as quickly as they do now), or buy used at GS since that will be the only local participating retailer. Now if I want to fund those games with trade-ins I'll be getting peanuts because they'll have a ton of stock and without Ebay/Craigslist/etc to compete with they won't have to offer even remotely competitive trade values. So between raising my average game price and likely-to-plummet trade values on the Xbone I'm buying a lot less games, both new and used.

Plus, you're all looking at games as purely an investment. They're for entertainment. If I buy a game and end up "losing" $20 when I later get rid of it if I do, then that $20 paid for the experience.

Good point. If you spend a couple thousand to go on vacation, once that's over you "wasted" your money according to some of these people.

 

[DNukem170]

Additionally, you just pulled the $30 average out of nowhere. My average price per game is close to $10.

Nice to know you represent the millions of gamers out there.

He used $30 because many games, especially popular ones, either get discounted to $30 new, or sell for $25-$30 on eBay/Amazon.

But props to you for getting every game for $10 without the use of credit or anything like that.

 

[kill3r7]

I think another thing Xbox One supporters are ignoring that is a huge deal is their complete lack of Indie support (and no, having Minecraft after it's already been a massive success doesn't count, if Notch had only Microsoft to turn to it wouldn't have gotten made). Will those Indie games sell systems initially? Probably not. But If all the Xbox One has are games from the big AAA publishers, which are all puling back on the amount of titles, relying mostly on a few safe big bets every year, you might get a lot of returned systems with those huge gaps in-between games to play.

Can we stop with this shit already. Indie developers just like everyone else will work for the right price. If there is a market there to support their product indie developers will find it. At the end of the day money makes the world go round... well that and the opportunity to showcase your game.

 

[htz]

Additionally, you just pulled the $30 average out of nowhere. My average price per game is close to $10.

Nice to know you represent the millions of gamers out there.

He used $30 because many games, especially popular ones, either get discounted to $30 new, or sell for $25-$30 on eBay/Amazon.

But props to you for getting every game for $10 without the use of credit or anything like that.

Do you even know what average means? He didn't state he got every game for $10, just that it average out to $10.

 

[Blaster man]

I think another thing Xbox One supporters are ignoring that is a huge deal is their complete lack of Indie support (and no, having Minecraft after it's already been a massive success doesn't count, if Notch had only Microsoft to turn to it wouldn't have gotten made). Will those Indie games sell systems initially? Probably not. But If all the Xbox One has are games from the big AAA publishers, which are all puling back on the amount of titles, relying mostly on a few safe big bets every year, you might get a lot of returned systems with those huge gaps in-between games to play.

Can we stop with this shit already. Indie developers just like everyone else will work for the right price. If there is a market there to support their product indie developers will find it. At the end of the day money makes the world go round... well that and the opportunity to showcase your game.

Sure except ms won't let them self publish. So hey, you made this game so now go give EA half the money you make for selling it. They deserve it more than you do right? RIGHT?

 

[kill3r7]

Additionally, you just pulled the $30 average out of nowhere. My average price per game is close to $10.

Nice to know you represent the millions of gamers out there.

He used $30 because many games, especially popular ones, either get discounted to $30 new, or sell for $25-$30 on eBay/Amazon.

But props to you for getting every game for $10 without the use of credit or anything like that.

Do you even know what average means? He didn't state he got every game for $10, just that it average out to $10.

He was implying that penguin does not represent the average consumer. So $25-$30 is a more realistic average price.

 

[Erad30]

I think another thing Xbox One supporters are ignoring that is a huge deal is their complete lack of Indie support (and no, having Minecraft after it's already been a massive success doesn't count, if Notch had only Microsoft to turn to it wouldn't have gotten made). Will those Indie games sell systems initially? Probably not. But If all the Xbox One has are games from the big AAA publishers, which are all puling back on the amount of titles, relying mostly on a few safe big bets every year, you might get a lot of returned systems with those huge gaps in-between games to play.

Can we stop with this shit already. Indie developers just like everyone else will work for the right price. If there is a market there to support their product indie developers will find it. At the end of the day money makes the world go round... well that and the opportunity to showcase your game.

As Blaster Man already pointed out, it's not a money thing, it's an MS policy thing.MS policy on Indie games is that you have to go through a big publisher. Period. They also set release date, price and any sales that happen.

 

[kill3r7]

I think another thing Xbox One supporters are ignoring that is a huge deal is their complete lack of Indie support (and no, having Minecraft after it's already been a massive success doesn't count, if Notch had only Microsoft to turn to it wouldn't have gotten made). Will those Indie games sell systems initially? Probably not. But If all the Xbox One has are games from the big AAA publishers, which are all puling back on the amount of titles, relying mostly on a few safe big bets every year, you might get a lot of returned systems with those huge gaps in-between games to play.

Can we stop with this shit already. Indie developers just like everyone else will work for the right price. If there is a market there to support their product indie developers will find it. At the end of the day money makes the world go round... well that and the opportunity to showcase your game.

Sure except ms won't let them self publish. So hey, you made this game so now go give EA half the money you make for selling it. They deserve it more than you do right? RIGHT?

Last I checked half of something is better than nothing. Plus M$ can also act as a publisher. I'm sure plenty of indie developers will stand by their principles but others will cave in because at the end of the day everyone has bills to pay.

 

[Erad30]

Why would they "cave"? There's no reason unless the Xbox One is just so dominant there's no way to make money on any other platform, which isn't happening. PS4, PC, mobile and even Nintendo have more indie-friendly policies and are viable platforms to release on.

 

[Blaster man]

I think another thing Xbox One supporters are ignoring that is a huge deal is their complete lack of Indie support (and no, having Minecraft after it's already been a massive success doesn't count, if Notch had only Microsoft to turn to it wouldn't have gotten made). Will those Indie games sell systems initially? Probably not. But If all the Xbox One has are games from the big AAA publishers, which are all puling back on the amount of titles, relying mostly on a few safe big bets every year, you might get a lot of returned systems with those huge gaps in-between games to play.

Can we stop with this shit already. Indie developers just like everyone else will work for the right price. If there is a market there to support their product indie developers will find it. At the end of the day money makes the world go round... well that and the opportunity to showcase your game.

Sure except ms won't let them self publish. So hey, you made this game so now go give EA half the money you make for selling it. They deserve it more than you do right? RIGHT?

Last I checked half of something is better than nothing. Plus M$ can also act as a publisher. I'm sure plenty of indie developers will stand by their principles but others will cave in because at the end of the day everyone has bills to pay.

Give me half your paycheck and see how you feel about giving someone your money. Oh it's not you so you don't care. #selfCentered

 

[kill3r7]

Why would they "cave"? There's no reason unless the Xbox One is just so dominant there's no way to make money on any other platform, which isn't happening. PS4, PC, mobile and even Nintendo have more indie-friendly policies and are viable platforms to release on.

Exposure and money. Why do people still release things on multiple platforms because there is money to be made.

Also, the release date, price and sale policy is the same as the 360. If you are trying to say that indie developers will not want the exposure and money (even after pairing up with a publisher) then I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Blaster man]

Why would they "cave"? There's no reason unless the Xbox One is just so dominant there's no way to make money on any other platform, which isn't happening. PS4, PC, mobile and even Nintendo have more indie-friendly policies and are viable platforms to release on.

Exposure and money. Why do people still release things on multiple platforms because there is money to be made.

Also, the release date, price and sale policy is the same as the 360. If you are trying to say that indie developers will not want the exposure and money (even after pairing up with a publisher) then I'll believe it when I see it.

Are you completely missing the point or what? There is no good reason for this.

 

[Erad30]

You saw it at E3. All they had was LocoCycle, which is from a company they own (twisted pixel) and Mincecraft, which is a monstrous hit that sold well on 360 but ironically enough would not have been made if the only option was Microsoft because it was self-published. Hell, Game informer had an article on this very real problem in their last issue and it's up on their website now: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2013/06/18/xbla-exodus.aspx.

 

[kill3r7]

Why would they "cave"? There's no reason unless the Xbox One is just so dominant there's no way to make money on any other platform, which isn't happening. PS4, PC, mobile and even Nintendo have more indie-friendly policies and are viable platforms to release on.

Exposure and money. Why do people still release things on multiple platforms because there is money to be made.

Also, the release date, price and sale policy is the same as the 360. If you are trying to say that indie developers will not want the exposure and money (even after pairing up with a publisher) then I'll believe it when I see it.

Are you completely missing the point or what? There is no good reason for this.

I just gave you a reason. Money and exposure.

They are still getting paid by all the other platforms. So what you are telling me is that they'll turn down the opportunity and exposure to make ADDITIONAL money by selling their games on X1? Okay.

 

[htz]

Additionally, you just pulled the $30 average out of nowhere. My average price per game is close to $10.

Nice to know you represent the millions of gamers out there.

He used $30 because many games, especially popular ones, either get discounted to $30 new, or sell for $25-$30 on eBay/Amazon.

But props to you for getting every game for $10 without the use of credit or anything like that.

Do you even know what average means? He didn't state he got every game for $10, just that it average out to $10.

He was implying that penguin does not represent the average consumer. So $25-$30 is a more realistic average price.

He only quoted penguinmaster so I was only basing my comment off of that. I didn't know there was this bigger conversation going on with WV Matsui also.

 

[dmaul1114]

Plus, you're all looking at games as purely an investment. They're for entertainment. If I buy a game and end up "losing" $20 when I later get rid of it if I do, then that $20 paid for the experience.

Good point. If you spend a couple thousand to go on vacation, once that's over you "wasted" your money according to some of these people.

Exactly.

Or for an entertainment comparison, movie tickets at the theater I go to range from $9.50 for a 2d matinee to $18.50 for iMax 3d.

I don't mind paying that for the experience of seeing a good movie on the big screen. Similarly, I don't mind being out $10-20 or so for the experience of playing a great game. Be that paying that for a digital game, or my out of pocket costs on a disc game after buying, beating it and selling it. I'm just paying for the experience. I don't want to own a game collection as I never replay games so they're just useless possessions. So I'm ok with digital games if the pricing is right as I've said repeatedly.

Unless digital games get to the Steam model or cheaper the value just isn't there for me with the $60 launch prices and slower price drops on AAA games. I'm only still gaming due to being able sell games (and not get shafted on poor trade in values) and get costs down to what I think is a reasonable price per game ($10-20). Gaming's my least favorite of my hobbies so I'm just not willing to throw much money into it vs movies, traveling, running races and other things I enjoy more. So the X1 with its $500 price and game trade ins only at participating retailers just doesn't fit my budget or game buying habits.

For those it does, great. Enjoy the console.

 

[Richard Kain]

I just gave you a reason. Money and exposure.

They are still getting paid by all the other platforms. So what you are telling me is that they'll turn down the opportunity and exposure to make ADDITIONAL money by selling their games on X1? Okay.

Phil Fish is notorios now for having been charged by Microsoft in order to patch a game that he released on XBox Live Arcade. He would literally have had to go into debt to pay for a patch to a game that was already considered a financial success. Microsoft's policies on XBox Live insured that Phil didn't actually get any of the money his game was earning until a fixed date. And their policies regarding patches and revisions to games caused immense problems for him and a lot of the game's consumers.

When Super Meat Boy was released on XBLA, Microsoft completely failed to promote it in any way. Thanks to this, sales of the game on XBLA were lower than anyone had expected, and the developers of the game hardly made any money. When Team Meat released the game on Steam they got much better support and exposure, and ended up earning way more money on that platform.

Both of those developers have openly stated that they have no intention of working with Microsoft in the future due to the poor experiences they had releasing games on their platform.

Microsoft hasn't been nearly as good as they should have been in rewarding, supporting, and promoting indie developers. Because of this, indie devs are starting to flock to all of Microsoft's competitors. (Steam, Nintendo, Sony, Apple, Android, even Good Old Games) The indie development scene has been abandoning Microsoft like a sinking ship.

 

[kill3r7]

I just gave you a reason. Money and exposure.

They are still getting paid by all the other platforms. So what you are telling me is that they'll turn down the opportunity and exposure to make ADDITIONAL money by selling their games on X1? Okay.

Phil Fish is notorios now for having been charged by Microsoft in order to patch a game that he released on XBox Live Arcade. He would literally have had to go into debt to pay for a patch to a game that was already considered a financial success. Microsoft's policies on XBox Live insured that Phil didn't actually get any of the money his game was earning until a fixed date. And their policies regarding patches and revisions to games caused immense problems for him and a lot of the game's consumers.

When Super Meat Boy was released on XBLA, Microsoft completely failed to promote it in any way. Thanks to this, sales of the game on XBLA were lower than anyone had expected, and the developers of the game hardly made any money. When Team Meat released the game on Steam they got much better support and exposure, and ended up earning way more money on that platform.

Both of those developers have openly stated that they have no intention of working with Microsoft in the future due to the poor experiences they had releasing games on their platform.

Microsoft hasn't been nearly as good as they should have been in rewarding, supporting, and promoting indie developers. Because of this, indie devs are starting to flock to all of Microsoft's competitors. (Steam, Nintendo, Sony, Apple, Android, even Good Old Games) The indie development scene has been abandoning Microsoft like a sinking ship.

I am aware of all of these facts. However, if everyone's prediction is correct then M$ will be bereft of indie games. Logically, one would think that an indie game will have more exposure in a marketplace where there is less competition. Additionally, there will be more demand for such games due to a lack of them.

I guess this is the part of your argument that I have a hard time comprehending. If there exists a marketplace where you can make additional money and garner more exposure, I find it hard to believe that one would not take advantage of it.

Either way I'll continue supporting indie developers be it on the PS4, Vita, iPhone, iPad or Steam.

 

[thenutman69321]

It's $10 extra in your pocket. That makes a huge difference to some people.

oh come on seriously all of a sudden gamers turned into the sisters of the poor worried about their fellow man? come on give me a break

You don't know me or how I feel about my fellow man. Quit generalizing all gamers as some sort of group who doesn't care about others. Almost nothing related to the XBone will effect me directly other than used games fees. I'm still not willing to put up with all the rest even though it will never effect me even slightly because I care that others will be getting screwed by MS.

 

[htz]

This is what is wrong with the used game system. And you can try and defend it all you want and because there are mostly X1 and Timbo haters in here I will probably get troll slammed but nowhere does a trade in system like this make sense to me. But that's my opinion. No way this guy came out ahead in this trade.

From the X1 preorder thread

traded 75 xbox 360 games into gamestop,got $693.00 store credit, pre-ordered xbox one and paid it off with 2 games!

I just don't trade or flip much. What's the need for a huge backlog?


Even at an average of $30 a game it's only a 31% ROI...

Regardless of how much money he might have lost, without the used market he'd have $693 less. Clearly he isn't interested in playing those games anymore, so having $693 is much better than having those games.

Once again I don't understand the logic. He spent $2,250+ on games if bought at an average of $30, and let's be honest it's probably higher, and it is considered a great deal to get $690?

For those of us that don't have gynormus backlogs the used game thing is a non issue. And the fact that more than likely most of our main retailers will be preferred retailers where you more than likely will be able to trade.

Don't understand why this is such a big deal. But I guess it is to some people.

I don't care about GameStop, but people like WV Matsui seems to have some grudge against people trading games into GameStop. Yet the Xbox One that he is defending is going to allow GameStop to continue business as-is with no competition from private sales.

"This is what is wrong with the used game system."

Gives example of guy trading 75 games into GameStop as wrong. But the ironic thing is, that guy is using the funds to get an Xbox One and 2 new games to support Microsoft.

"For those of us that don't have gynormus backlogs the used game thing is a non issue."

"And the fact that more than likely most of our main retailers will be preferred retailers where you more than likely will be able to trade."

"Don't understand why this is such a big deal. But I guess it is to some people."

Then WV Matsui goes back to defending the Xbox One cause it will still allow you to trade in to retailers like GameStop. Does this mean he just hates the used game system if someone trades in what he considers too much games but is fine with it if your the type that trades in games with no backlog?

Is this your excuse for defending the drm/used game restrictions on the Xbox One? Cause you want to limit GameStop's trade in limits? That argument pretty much goes out the window if Microsoft will still allow GameStop to operate.

"I will probably get troll slammed"

Something we can agree on.

 

[Ashane]

You saw it at E3. All they had was LocoCycle, which is from a company they own (twisted pixel) and Mincecraft, which is a monstrous hit that sold well on 360 but ironically enough would not have been made if the only option was Microsoft because it was self-published. Hell, Game informer had an article on this very real problem in their last issue and it's up on their website now: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2013/06/18/xbla-exodus.aspx.

You kind of missed Below, one of the most hyped Indie games in E3. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-06-15-capybaras-xbox-one-exclusive-roguelike-below-detailed

I'd rather have extremely high quality indie games, then simply allow self publishing and have a glut of utter crap like we have on steam, with only a few that actually shine. For every Swapper on Steam, there are at least 20 that make you wonder who the hell thought that was a good idea.

 

[Blaster man]

[quote name="htz" post="10843502" timestamp="1371659270"][quote name="WV Matsui" post="10843141" timestamp="1371646112"]
[quote name="PenguinMaster" post="10843132" timestamp="1371645750"]
[quote name="WV Matsui" post="10843124" timestamp="1371645375"]
This is what is wrong with the used game system. And you can try and defend it all you want and because there are mostly X1 and Timbo haters in here I will probably get troll slammed but nowhere does a trade in system like this make sense to me. But that's my opinion. No way this guy came out ahead in this trade.
From the X1 preorder thread
[quote name="hurricanewilky" post="10841273" timestamp="1371589011"]
traded 75 xbox 360 games into gamestop,got $693.00 store credit, pre-ordered xbox one and paid it off with 2 games!
[/quote]
I just don't trade or flip much. What's the need for a huge backlog?
Even at an average of $30 a game it's only a 31% ROI...
[/quote]
Regardless of how much money he might have lost, without the used market he'd have $693 less. Clearly he isn't interested in playing those games anymore, so having $693 is much better than having those games.
[/quote]

Once again I don't understand the logic. He spent $2,250+ on games if bought at an average of $30, and let's be honest it's probably higher, and it is considered a great deal to get $690?
For those of us that don't have gynormus backlogs the used game thing is a non issue. And the fact that more than likely most of our main retailers will be preferred retailers where you more than likely will be able to trade.
Don't understand why this is such a big deal. But I guess it is to some people.
[/quote]
I don't care about GameStop, but people like WV Matsui seems to have some grudge against people trading games into GameStop. Yet the Xbox One that he is defending is going to allow GameStop to continue business as-is with no competition from private sales.

"This is what is wrong with the used game system."

Gives example of guy trading 75 games into GameStop as wrong. But the ironic thing is, that guy is using the funds to get an Xbox One and 2 new games to support Microsoft.

"For those of us that don't have gynormus backlogs the used game thing is a non issue."
"And the fact that more than likely most of our main retailers will be preferred retailers where you more than likely will be able to trade."
"Don't understand why this is such a big deal. But I guess it is to some people."

Then WV Matsui goes back to defending the Xbox One cause it will still allow you to trade in to retailers like GameStop. Does this mean he just hates the used game system if someone trades in what he considers too much games but is fine with it if your the type that trades in games with no backlog?

Is this your excuse for defending the drm/used game restrictions on the Xbox One? Cause you want to limit GameStop's trade in limits? That argument pretty much goes out the window if Microsoft will still allow GameStop to operate.

"I will probably get troll slammed"
Something we can agree on. [/quote]

MS has eliminated your ability to sell on ebay, craigslist, or even a yard sale. Meanwhile GS is allowed to continue. You're going to see GS charge more for X1 games and hold the used and new prices up longer than on ps4. Again, MS isn't stopping used games, they're just taking away all the realistic lower cost alternatives. You are a cow to be milked. #dealwithit

 

[pitfallharry219]

I hate nested quotes. So much clutter.

 

[gotdott]

i don't trade/sell any of my games so none of this applies to me

 

[Richard Kain]

I guess this is the part of your argument that I have a hard time comprehending. If there exists a marketplace where you can make additional money and garner more exposure, I find it hard to believe that one would not take advantage of it.

Either way I'll continue supporting indie developers be it on the PS4, Vita, iPhone, iPad or Steam.

As well you should. Indie developers have it hard.

I think a big part of the problem is that it's too costly to release games on the XBox Live, both in terms of monetary expense as well as time cost. It sounds like a lot of the indie devs who are swearing off of XBLA have just had to spend too much or work too hard to get their games on that platform, and the return on investment just hasn't been high enough.

Part of this is due to Microsoft's policies. And part of it is Microsoft's continuing trend of using the XBox dashboard as a big-ass billboard. Microsoft's desire to sell advertising space on the dashboard has pushed XBLA promotions to the back-burner. Even bigger name indie devs are suffering because of this. Microsoft's push to partner with big TV and cable companies for the XBox One is only going to reinforce this "advertising-first" policy on their new platform, and I think that is going to scare a lot of indie devs off.

 

[Ashane]

I guess this is the part of your argument that I have a hard time comprehending. If there exists a marketplace where you can make additional money and garner more exposure, I find it hard to believe that one would not take advantage of it.

Either way I'll continue supporting indie developers be it on the PS4, Vita, iPhone, iPad or Steam.

As well you should. Indie developers have it hard.

I think a big part of the problem is that it's too costly to release games on the XBox Live, both in terms of monetary expense as well as time cost. It sounds like a lot of the indie devs who are swearing off of XBLA have just had to spend too much or work too hard to get their games on that platform, and the return on investment just hasn't been high enough.

Part of this is due to Microsoft's policies. And part of it is Microsoft's continuing trend of using the XBox dashboard as a big-ass billboard. Microsoft's desire to sell advertising space on the dashboard has pushed XBLA promotions to the back-burner. Even bigger name indie devs are suffering because of this. Microsoft's push to partner with big TV and cable companies for the XBox One is only going to reinforce this "advertising-first" policy on their new platform, and I think that is going to scare a lot of indie devs off.

Part of it is also because the masses on Xbox 360 simply dont want Indie titles.

They even discuss it in the article that was linked earlier, that PC sales are constantly higher then the 360 versions. Neither are heavily advertised, yet one sells far more then the other. The only logical conclusion one can come to is that PC Players are more apt to play Indie games right now. Which... oddly enough... is completely true.

I mean half the article sounds like a "sour grapes" type, with prayers that Sony wont "do it right back to us, we'll just have to wait and see...".

 

[htz]

Part of it is also because the masses on Xbox 360 simply dont want Indie titles.

Isn't it Microsoft's fault for not giving them enough exposure in the store?

 

[Ashane]

Part of it is also because the masses on Xbox 360 simply dont want Indie titles.

Isn't it Microsoft's fault for not giving them enough exposure in the store?

Not really, since Indie titles were moved to their very own section called "Specialty Shops". Anyone interested in Indie titles now had a place to go to see just those titles.

Was that better then mixing them in with traditional XBL games? That's open for debate I'd said. It gave those who like Indie games a very clear place to look, while giving those who had no idea what a Indie game was less of a chance to see them.

 

[MetalSlugger]

Part of it is also because the masses on Xbox 360 simply dont want Indie titles.

Isn't it Microsoft's fault for not giving them enough exposure in the store?

Yes, along with MANY other problems. It was broken from the start.

 

[kcobra22]

Didn't realize they're getting rid of the branding like 'arcade games' or 'indie games' ....they'll all be together in the 'games' section for x1

http://www.develop-online.net/news/44269/Microsoft-abolishes-XBLA-for-Xbox-One

 

[Richard Kain]

Part of it is also because the masses on Xbox 360 simply dont want Indie titles.

This argument is dilluted somewhat by the fact that indie developers seem to be doing just fine on other console platforms. You could argue in turn that the 360 simply draws a different crowd than the PS3 or Wii, and there would be a certain degree of credence to this. However, that argument is not really in Microsoft's favor, as it speaks to the kind of community they've built up around the XBox brand.

You might as well just say that dude-bros simply don't want indie titles. Those are the "masses" on the XBox 360 you are actually referring to. The "masses" on the other available alternatives seem quite happy to enjoy an indie title every now and then, especially when it actually gets a bit of exposure. Retro City Rampage enjoyed its best sales on PSN, despite being ported to numerous platforms. The fact that Microsoft is catering to an extremely specific demographic does not bode well.

 

[Corvin]

Plus, you're all looking at games as purely an investment. They're for entertainment. If I buy a game and end up "losing" $20 when I later get rid of it if I do, then that $20 paid for the experience.

Good point. If you spend a couple thousand to go on vacation, once that's over you "wasted" your money according to some of these people.

Exactly.

Er, not really. A vacation is a service. You pay to get away for a bit and make some memories. You aren't buying a physical product. You can't resell a vacation after you use it.

It comes down to whether or not you buy into MS's "games are a license" bs. If you think a game is an experience, then the X1 is for you. If you view games as a tangible product you can hold, lend, rent, sell(i.e. anything but a coaster), then the X1 is probably not the best console for you next gen.

 

[Ashane]

Part of it is also because the masses on Xbox 360 simply dont want Indie titles.

This argument is dilluted somewhat by the fact that indie developers seem to be doing just fine on other console platforms. You could argue in turn that the 360 simply draws a different crowd than the PS3 or Wii, and there would be a certain degree of credence to this. However, that argument is not really in Microsoft's favor, as it speaks to the kind of community they've built up around the XBox brand.

You might as well just say that dude-bros simply don't want indie titles. Those are the "masses" on the XBox 360 you are actually referring to. The "masses" on the other available alternatives seem quite happy to enjoy an indie title every now and then, especially when it actually gets a bit of exposure. Retro City Rampage enjoyed its best sales on PSN, despite being ported to numerous platforms. The fact that Microsoft is catering to an extremely specific demographic does not bode well.

Well, I was kind of trying to be somewhat respectful of those type of players, but yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

Actually your incorrect about Retro City Rampage as well. It sold the most on PC. It *made* the most on Playstation. (Source: https://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/03/30/retro-city-rampage-developer-shares-sales-numbers.aspx )

Which again goes to my argument that if your a indie developer, you want to be on a PC right now. Even with two platforms (Vita and PS3) the PSN version still sold 5000 short of PC. I'd also argue that PC players push indie awareness more, especially right now, then any console.

 

[spatenfloot]

Indie titles have been doing well on PSN lately, especially on the Vita. I forget which developer it was, but they said they made a lot more money releasing their game for the Vita than on Xbox live and it was much easier. Live tends to have a different audience than other platforms.

 

[kill3r7]

Plus, you're all looking at games as purely an investment. They're for entertainment. If I buy a game and end up "losing" $20 when I later get rid of it if I do, then that $20 paid for the experience.

Good point. If you spend a couple thousand to go on vacation, once that's over you "wasted" your money according to some of these people.

Exactly.

If you think a game is an experience, then the X1 is for you. If you view games as a tangible product you can hold, lend, rent, sell(i.e. anything but a coaster), then the X1 is probably not the best console for you next gen.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

[Blaster man]

MS has a rating system that they patched into XBL a couple years ago but don't use it. You should be able to sort by rating. That way if you make a good indie game it will rise to the top.

 

[aptanor]

Plus, you're all looking at games as purely an investment. They're for entertainment. If I buy a game and end up "losing" $20 when I later get rid of it if I do, then that $20 paid for the experience.

Good point. If you spend a couple thousand to go on vacation, once that's over you "wasted" your money according to some of these people.

Exactly.

If you think a game is an experience, then the X1 is for you. If you view games as a tangible product you can hold, lend, rent, sell(i.e. anything but a coaster), then the X1 is probably not the best console for you next gen.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

Uh, why can't they be both? A movie is both a tangible item and a piece of entertainment, as is music cds, books, etc.

 

[Richard Kain]

Which again goes to my argument that if your a indie developer, you want to be on a PC right now. Even with two platforms (Vita and PS3) the PSN version still sold 5000 short of PC. I'd also argue that PC players push indie awareness more, especially right now, then any console.

I would agree with this. But I don't think this is because of the demographics on the PC, so much as the nature of PC gaming, and how it has evolved over the past hardware generation.

The best argument for the PC demographic being different is that the PC demographic is almost always older. PCs continue to be relatively expensive devices that take some know-how to deal with. PCs designed for gaming are doubly so. (more likely to be expensive, and more likely to require regular maintenance) So right off the bat the PC gaming crowd is going to lean heavily toward older individuals with disposable income and possibly some degree of technical prowess. These gamers are much more likely to have easy access to credit cards, while a lot of younger console gamers might not. (limiting exposure to downloadable games simply through the acquisition mechanism)

There's also the general nature of PC gaming to consider. The retail market for PC gaming died years ago. It's been a digital-only market place for a while now, and the market has had plenty of time to adjust to this. The currently thriving PC gaming market is founded on digital distribution. Indie titles are usually download-only by necessity, where published titles can afford to have retail releases. But in a digital marketplace there is no practical distinction between the two. On PC publisher-supported games and indie games are distributed in the exact same fashion.

If you are an indie developer you DO want to be on PC right now. It is an appropriate market that is more accepting of digital distribution. But this is also an argument against XBLA. Any indie developer who signs a publishing deal with Microsoft is required to have six months of exclusivity for XBLA. (which prevents them from releasing on the PC for half a year, or any other platforms for that matter) This is exactly the kind of policy that is driving indie devs away from XBLA and that Microsoft needs to drop.

 

[MetalSlugger]

The most telling sign that MS is trying to have 100% control over their game sales and cut out the secondary market is the refusal to comment on/implement using the disc as a license check.  Playing the game off your HDD/friend's shared library?  24 hour internet check.  No internet/disc is in the drive?  Check the disk, play away.  Friend wants to borrow the game but can't do the family share?  Give them the disc, disc check, play away.

It would be so simple.  FFS, they're already doing it on the 360.  But doing that means they would relinquish 100% control over physical copies of their product, and apparently they're not going to budge on that front.

Until they change their policies on physical discs or go digital only and cut prices, I'll stick with my 360/PS3/WiiU and do this:

http://youtu.be/DZk4csjBrkY?t=21s

 

[esquire]

This is what is wrong with the used game system. And you can try and defend it all you want and because there are mostly X1 and Timbo haters in here I will probably get troll slammed but nowhere does a trade in system like this make sense to me. But that's my opinion. No way this guy came out ahead in this trade.

From the X1 preorder thread

traded 75 xbox 360 games into gamestop,got $693.00 store credit, pre-ordered xbox one and paid it off with 2 games!

I just don't trade or flip much. What's the need for a huge backlog?


Even at an average of $30 a game it's only a 31% ROI...

Regardless of how much money he might have lost, without the used market he'd have $693 less. Clearly he isn't interested in playing those games anymore, so having $693 is much better than having those games.

Once again I don't understand the logic. He spent $2,250+ on games if bought at an average of $30, and let's be honest it's probably higher, and it is considered a great deal to get $690?

For those of us that don't have gynormus backlogs the used game thing is a non issue. And the fact that more than likely most of our main retailers will be preferred retailers where you more than likely will be able to trade.

Don't understand why this is such a big deal. But I guess it is to some people.

Well, your first problem is equating games with investments. They aren't. If they were they'd be one of the worst investment devices out there as over 90% of them depreciate in price over time. Only a few rare titles and a few non-over-produced collector's edition can hold their value over time.

Second, you are not taking into consideration the "use and enjoyment" that each consumer gets out of that game. That has value, and must be considered when you sell a game. In other words, did I get my money's worth out of the purchase price.

I am sure there also other economic factors as well as my previous post addressing re-seller risk when they buy your used game - just because they buy it at a certain price doesn't mean its going to sell at the desired price for them to make profit. Also, paying 1/3 of their ultimate sale price is quite common n the re-seller market, whatever the product may be.

Lastly, there are subjective factors as well. If the guy is never going to play those games again, why not trade them in? To him, they have zero value in their current state. But to trade them in netted him $700 that he didn't have to pay out-of-pocket for the new console and games.

So, just because you paid $60 for a game doesn't mean you are going to get anywhere near that value in trade or sale, especially if the game is not a nearly new release (another factor that was not clarified - how old were these games?).

 

[thenutman69321]

I guess it shouldn't surprise me at this point but it seems MS is manipulating Bings auto complete results for the XBone.

http://www.destructoid.com/xbox-one-is-terrible-on-google-amazing-on-bing-256585.phtml

Edit: Maybe not though or they just manipulated "the xbox one" because if you just take out "the" the results change completely and become mostly negative.

 

[Ashane]

The most telling sign that MS is trying to have 100% control over their game sales and cut out the secondary market is the refusal to comment on/implement using the disc as a license check. Playing the game off your HDD/friend's shared library? 24 hour internet check. No internet/disc is in the drive? Check the disk, play away. Friend wants to borrow the game but can't do the family share? Give them the disc, disc check, play away.

It would be so simple. FFS, they're already doing it on the 360. But doing that means they would relinquish 100% control over physical copies of their product, and apparently they're not going to budge on that front.

Until they change their policies on physical discs or go digital only and cut prices, I'll stick with my 360/PS3/WiiU and do this:

http://youtu.be/DZk4csjBrkY?t=21s

When asked about that, Major Nelson said it was a good idea and he would check to see if it was possible.

I'd expect alot more information next week once Nelson releases the family sharing blog. I'd hope it would go into a little more detail about maybe the possibility of a "on disc" verification method in addition to the 24 hour check, so it could be one or the other.

................

To Richard Kain, agree 100%

 

[WV Matsui]

More on Fallon from last night

http://kotaku.com/microsofts-muddled-messaging-shown-off-on-national-te-514280891

 

[DNukem170]

So...the WiiU, 3DS, and Vita don't play used games anymore?

 

[Erad30]

See that's going to be a huge issue, hell we are pretty informed and it's downright confusing. Imagine, as a another podcast I listen to put it, "Joe Walmart" trying to learn about it from at best marginally informed average store employee. There's no simple way to explain anything about the Xbox One, negative or otherwise. I'm sure at first there will be sales reps there, but in my experience sales reps are mostly lying sacks of shit because their jobs are pretty dependent on selling to customers any way they can. The audience they are aiming for will be utterly confused and not buy it.

 

[kcobra22]

You kind of missed Below, one of the most hyped Indie games in E3. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-06-15-capybaras-xbox-one-exclusive-roguelike-below-detailed

IGN just put up an article about Below as well: http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/19/e3-2013-what-is-below

 

[RiPPn]

This is what is wrong with the used game system. And you can try and defend it all you want and because there are mostly X1 and Timbo haters in here I will probably get troll slammed but nowhere does a trade in system like this make sense to me. But that's my opinion. No way this guy came out ahead in this trade.

From the X1 preorder thread

traded 75 xbox 360 games into gamestop,got $693.00 store credit, pre-ordered xbox one and paid it off with 2 games!

I just don't trade or flip much. What's the need for a huge backlog?


Even at an average of $30 a game it's only a 31% ROI...

I'm wondering if you feel this way about the reselling of any tangible goods that lose value. Like do you think you shouldn't be able to resell a car since it has depreciated in value? How about a home? Clothing? Anything found at a yard sale?

Good point. If you spend a couple thousand to go on vacation, once that's over you "wasted" your money according to some of these people.

The vacation analogy is the best argument I've heard. The problem is people have thought of games as a tangible good for over 30 years, and now Microsoft wants you to pay the same amount and change people's thinking and they want it now.

I think Sony's plan is to push digital to eliminate used games or at least slow that market. The thing about this is they will have to persuade people to buy the digital product by offering discounts and convenience on the digital products, this will ease people into the thinking of games as an experience and over time we will accept it. Not the brute force method Microsoft is using.

Some of the ways I could see them getting people to buy the digital version is like on the Vita you actually save $5 over the physical copy. I could also see them offering a game a couple days earlier on the digital side. Microsofts system means they have no incentive to make any benefits for going digital since the physical disk is just a download anyway.

 

[brandtron8000]

Where I find value is like the NewEgg sale yesterday Max Payne 3 for $10 or the Black Friday sales or a decent Gold Box sale. Not in the used game market.

LOL at $30 average, especially since this is CAG. Plus you may not buy used but others do, and as others have said it doesn't matter what he pad initially.

So if Gamestop is an approved retailer and "This is what is wrong with the used game system," then the only difference is that MS will have complete control over it all. I'm sure that will fix all the problems.

 

[RiPPn]

When asked about that, Major Nelson said it was a good idea and he would check to see if it was possible.

I'd expect alot more information next week once Nelson releases the family sharing blog. I'd hope it would go into a little more detail about maybe the possibility of a "on disc" verification method in addition to the 24 hour check, so it could be one or the other.

................

To Richard Kain, agree 100%

Major Nelson is a figurehead he will say anything to make people happy even if it's a lie. He's been caught in many lies in the past. You can read the threads at GAF about all the wonderful nuggets this tool has shoveled.

Where I find value is like the NewEgg sale yesterday Max Payne 3 for $10 or the Black Friday sales or a decent Gold Box sale. Not in the used game market.

LOL at $30 average, especially since this is CAG. Plus you may not buy used but others do, and as others have said it doesn't what he pad initially.

So if Gamestop is an approved retailer and "This is what is wrong with the used game system," then the only difference is that MS will have complete control over it all. I'm sure that will fix all the problems.

It really is going to be interesting to see how things play out on the Microsoft side. Are people going to shell out $60 on an unknown game knowing they may not be able to recoup any of those funds if it turns out to be a bad game and the publisher has blocked the sharing, lending, selling aspects of the game? Does that mean people will rely on reviews and niche games will completely disappear? Without the built in sales from rental companies will games still sale as many copies? Without reselling people won't have the funds to buy the newest games, how will this affect game sale? With all the restrictions on used games, Microsoft setting used game prices, blocking used games for a set period of time or blocking them entirely and taking a piece of the used game sale will it even be worth the hassle to trade in a game? So many questions to be answered, going to make watching Xbox One, especially the first year, very interesting