Xbox One on the way. DRM removed, more details to come.

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[quote name='Broken Cage']So GameStop continues to thrive, but game lending, rentals, and private selling become a thing of the past.

How exactly is this not anti-consumer again? Giant corporations win, consumers lose.[/QUOTE]

Um. Welcome to America dude, it took the launch of a new Xbox for you to realize that?
 
[quote name='DestroVega']Um. Welcome to America dude, it took the launch of a new Xbox for you to realize that?[/QUOTE]


No, but the launch didn't lead me to accepting it, either.
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']So GameStop continues to thrive, but game lending, rentals, and private selling become a thing of the past.

How exactly is this not anti-consumer again? Giant corporations win, consumers lose.[/QUOTE]

It's illegal in Australia, and probably some other countries as well. It will lead to a situation where new games are full price longer, don't go on sale, and price fixing at the used games level. It will also lead to less games being made overall since the prices are unsustainable.
 
So if you have a game and no longer want it, let's say an out of date sports game. Those games have bloated the trade in market and they aren't taking any more. Maybe now you can sell that for $5 on ebay. With the new console it is quite literally trash. That doesn't just go for old sports games, its any game. Think of all the older games now that are low in value.
 
That article is pretty much all speculation and "Unconfirmed reports". I suggest waiting to find out how it will actually work.

penny arcade has an interesting article that suggests that we will see Steam-like sales on new games on the One, because of how it works. That's also speculation at this point, but it's at least as valid. If that comes to pass, I see a big turnaround in perception of the Xbone. Either way I have the privilege of finding out before buying - I can't afford either at launch. :(

http://penny-arcade.com/report/arti...ontrol-of-the-second-hand-market-could-be-the
 
[quote name='crunchewy']That article is pretty much all speculation and "Unconfirmed reports". I suggest waiting to find out how it will actually work.[/QUOTE]
Agreed but I still have to question what will happen with older games. Right now a game goes out of print and you can only find it used. When a game goes out of print in the future, you can buy a used copy and pay Microsoft $40-$60 to play it or buy a download of it for the same full price? Unless the licensing fees can go down to $1 or so for older games imagine how fucking empty GameStop's shelves would be right now.
 
I am nit convinced that prices would remain high if MS or Sony took more control of the used market. I think they will follow GameStop's lead and allow them to price according to Market. GS already has the infrastructure and experience in place and MS would be dumb not to take advantage of it. The license fee is not a set price according to the article. Therefore if GS sells a used game for $5 then the fee is included in that. The real things that are hurt are private sales ans rentals. That is my real problem.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']It's illegal in Australia, and probably some other countries as well. It will lead to a situation where new games are full price longer, don't go on sale, and price fixing at the used games level. It will also lead to less games being made overall since the prices are unsustainable.[/QUOTE]

This is actually a really valid point. People need to understand what exactly happens with price fixing. Forget that it's an illegal practice, do you even know what the result is? Shrinking product line, less innovation, less retailer sale prices to win over competition, lower demand.

Price fixing does not increase the number of dollars you have. If you have $120 you can buy 2 new games or you can trade in some used games and then buy 3 new games. In a world of price fixing, you can only buy the two games and there will be no sales and no motivation to compete for the consumer's dollar.

Lets stop for a second and compare this to the PC market which is what a lot of people are doing, "Hey it's not a big deal, it's just like steam". It's most definitely NOT like steam. Imagine you buy a PC from Dell and the ONLY PLACE you can buy games is from DELL. Imagine you buy a PC from Sony and the ONLY place you can buy games is from Sony. Imagine you build your own PC and you cannot buy games ANYWHERE. The reason steam is popular is because of prices. If steam was the only place to buy games it would not have the prices people are enjoying. In this same way what MS is doing is switching from a competitive marketplace (how the PC market functions with games) to an anti-competitive monopoly where all retailers will charge full price and have no motivation to lower prices or have sales quickly.

So yes, the digital games environment will be similar to steam but the marketplace, price pressures, and competition is going to be the polar opposite of steam. This is a disaster for consumers.
 
Wait so used games are the drivers of new game sales? News to me. Why would you think that? Best Buy are still going to have sales on new games like always. There is NO indication that new game prices would remain high.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Wait so used games are the drivers of new game sales? News to me. Why would you think that? Best Buy are still going to have sales on new games like always. There is NO indication that new game prices would remain high.[/QUOTE]

Yeah that is complete bullshit, Best Buy puts FIFA on sale around the same time every year, no matter how many have been traded in.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']That sounds a bit like price fixing to me.[/QUOTE]

Only if you believe that article. I think that one site with the "10% less msrp for used" is speculating completely wrong.

To me it seems like this:

- you buy a game at $60 or $50 or $8.98.
- you can trade it into GameStop for $20 (or however much GameStop will give you for it)
- GameStop can sell it for $55 or $21 or $10. They just have to give Microsoft a 10% cut. Buyer of that used game might have to pay a fee that's TBD. Basically an online pass amount. I'm guessing $10.


If Microsoft dictated that used games can ONLY be sold at 10% less msrp, that doesn't make any sense and would draw the attention of various govt agencies around the world. Plus nobody would ever buy used so there'd be no point of even having used.

In the above scenario that i outlined, both msft and the publishers get their cut.

All of this sucks but it doesn't suck anywhere near as bad as what's being conjectured around the gaming press.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Wait so used games are the drivers of new game sales? News to me. Why would you think that? Best Buy are still going to have sales on new games like always. There is NO indication that new game prices would remain high.[/QUOTE]
What do you think people use trade in credit for? YOu've seriously never seen anyone on here talk about buying a game at gamestop using credit from trade ins?
[quote name='DestroVega']Yeah that is complete bullshit, Best Buy puts FIFA on sale around the same time every year, no matter how many have been traded in.[/QUOTE]
You have no idea what's bullshit because this situation is brand new. It's not easy to compare a free market economy with a price fixed market. I'm sure that yes, Best Buy will put sports games on sale when they're about to be replaced. That's common sense. What I'm talking about here is typical sales. Right now you might wait a month and save 33% ($20) on a brand new game. If eBay and Craigslist are no longer competition and the most gamestop can make will be 10% then their used games will be maybe $50-$54 and eBay won't be an option so you're stuck either buying a used game at close to full price or a new game at full price. Most people will just buy the new game.

On second thought, I'm not going to explain this. If people don't understand that used games drive down the prices of new games they need to fucking learn about the free market because you clearly won't believe me.
 
[quote name='DestroVega']Yeah that is complete bullshit, Best Buy puts FIFA on sale around the same time every year, no matter how many have been traded in.[/QUOTE]

Yeah publishers are still competing with each other for your money. Games are not one big amorphous blob. Individual games still compete with each other. If sales are down then prices go down also not matter if they are sold at 1 store or 1000 stores.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']I'm sure the best way to combat piracy is with anti-consumer policies like restrictive DRM, loosing your library when you upgrade and keeping the price of your games high.[/QUOTE]

Out of pure curiosity, or just to spur intelligent discussion, and I am honestly not trying to come of as mean or anything...

Can you actually come up with a better or more effective way to counter piracy? Other than always online DRM to check that your disc is genuine, I cannot think of any way to combat piracy other than to always check on the users like a hawk. I don't know much about how PC games combat piracy, so this is me just being unclear as to how anyone would make a system, if you want to combat piracy, without similar features.

[quote name='Blaster man']This. I really doubt PS4 will be as strict as xOne for the simple reason that the Japanese culture isn't quite the same as america culture. That said, I'm not an expert of Japanese culture so I won't pretend to know intricacies of it.[/QUOTE]

Until we know the details of how the PS4's online structure works, we can't know for sure. I read people saying that they are now committed to getting a PS4 over Xbox One. When we don't even know what it will offer. If both PS4 and XB1 block used games and charge for online multiplayer, etc, I would really love to see how the internet implodes into itself. Would make reading comments entertaining, that's for sure.

[quote name='itachiitachi']Are you trying to miss the point? XB1 is full of anti-consumer features that encourages pirating. [/QUOTE]

Sorry to quote you twice itachiitachi (sweet user name by the way, but I'm assume its related to Itachi from Naruto), had to.

Please don't ever use the words "encourage piracy". Nothing they do should ever encourage piracy in any way shape or form. Even if Microsoft blocks used games, charges $100 per game, and even charges $100 per month to play on Xbox Live, all of that combined should still NEVER ever give the right to anyone to pirate a game. Gaming is a privilege we fortunately have, its not a god given right. Its not the same as stealing cause you are hungry and would starve (let not discuss the differences here, just making an example, a bad one that I myself acknowledge is in bad taste).

Can't afford a game, to bad since, lets be honest, we have no right to play it anyway. Don't like the "features" the Xbox One has, like online DRM and blocking used games, don't buy the system. We as consumers have to start sending a message to this mega corporations by voting with our wallets. But not with piracy, never with piracy.

[quote name='cancerman1120']Wait so used games are the drivers of new game sales? News to me. Why would you think that? Best Buy are still going to have sales on new games like always. There is NO indication that new game prices would remain high.[/QUOTE]

Well said. :applause:

There is no indication that prices would remain high. Heck, whenever a new system comes out, prices for new games are always high and stay high for a while. It is only recently, in the last year or two, that we see Xbox 360 games drop in price weeks after release even. But when the 360 was new, those prices stayed up for a bit. Wii U game prices are still full MSRP correct, or have most of them dropped. Not to my knowledge. Price depends on how many games are out there and how much competition there is within your system. Just cause all games go through MS doesn't mean they are fixing prices (although I bet they will try).

PS:I decided to stop writing, I could write for hours. I'm tired. Waiting till E3 to find out what games are coming, then and only then will I 'judge' the systems.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']What do you think people use trade in credit for? YOu've seriously never seen anyone on here talk about buying a game at gamestop using credit from trade ins?

You have no idea what's bullshit because this situation is brand new. It's not easy to compare a free market economy with a price fixed market. I'm sure that yes, Best Buy will put sports games on sale when they're about to be replaced. That's common sense. What I'm talking about here is typical sales. Right now you might wait a month and save 33% ($20) on a brand new game. If eBay and Craigslist are no longer competition and the most gamestop can make will be 10% then their used games will be maybe $50-$54 and eBay won't be an option so you're stuck either buying a used game at close to full price or a new game at full price. Most people will just buy the new game.

On second thought, I'm not going to explain this. If people don't understand that used games drive down the prices of new games they need to fucking learn about the free market because you clearly won't believe me.[/QUOTE]

Again. People only have so much money to spend. Prices will be driven by sales of the game. It does not matter if they give you $10 or $30 for you trade because eventually prices will adjust to meet sales expectations. You cannot wring blood out of a stone.
 
People love Steam. I think if Microsoft successfully emulates Steam, or better still, improves on it (the ability to trade/sell licenses would be an improvement for sure, the ability for multiple gamertags to play the purchased game - that's also an improvement) with a console, then they will have a hit on their hands. They will need to get past the initial uproar, though, which is, at the moment, deafening. AND this actually has to prove to be the case. That remains to be seen. Since this is Microsoft we are talking about, I am still a bit skeptical.

What will be popular for sure is that you can install your game and then not have to put the disc in again. I know I would like that. On the other hand, 500 GB is going to go pretty fast with games being Blu-ray sized, and fully installed. The external storage option I guess resolves that, but that's another expense. Too bad they didn't put a 1 TB drive in there.
 
[quote name='Blaster man'] second thought, I'm not going to explain this. If people don't understand that used games drive down the prices of new games they need to fucking learn about the free market because you clearly won't believe me.[/QUOTE]

Actually you have not explained at al how used games lower new game prices. Demand lowers prices. Why would Gamestop ever put a new game on sale if they could sell the used version for more profit? Why drop AC3 to $30 new and the used price to $27.99 when the day before the used price was $37.99? The used price is not what drive new game sales.
 
[quote name='crunchewy']What will be popular for sure is that you can install your game and then not have to put the disc in again. I know I would like that. On the other hand, 500 GB is going to go pretty fast with games being Blu-ray sized, and fully installed. The external storage option I guess resolves that, but that's another expense. Too bad they didn't put a 1 TB drive in there.[/QUOTE]

I really like that idea also. I'm more interested in how fast a game would install into the drive. Hours? If so, then it becomes bothersome after a while. I don't really resell most of my games, but having to delete data and reinstall after a while can become bothersome, but meh, firstworldproblems. That said, installing a disc means no disc spinning, so less fear of overheating, thus dare I say, no more RROD?
 
[quote name='crunchewy']People love Steam. I think if Microsoft successfully emulates Steam, or better still, improves on it (the ability to trade/sell licenses would be an improvement for sure, the ability for multiple gamertags to play the purchased game - that's also an improvement) with a console, then they will have a hit on their hands. They will need to get past the initial uproar, though, which is, at the moment, deafening. AND this actually has to prove to be the case. That remains to be seen. Since this is Microsoft we are talking about, I am still a bit skeptical.

What will be popular for sure is that you can install your game and then not have to put the disc in again. I know I would like that. On the other hand, 500 GB is going to go pretty fast with games being Blu-ray sized, and fully installed. The external storage option I guess resolves that, but that's another expense. Too bad they didn't put a 1 TB drive in there.[/QUOTE]

Again, this is not "successfully emulating steam". Can I download the "steam app" and buy games from steam for the Xbox One? How the hell can you compare PC games sold at a variety of retailers AND a variety of online sites with console games are sold at a variety of retailers and a single site? Steam doesn't have to send everyone the physical box and can cut prices faster. MS can do that right now with the Xbox 360 but the DO NOT. How is this at all the same?

[quote name='cancerman1120']Actually you have not explained at al how used games lower new game prices. Demand lowers prices. Why would Gamestop ever put a new game on sale if they could sell the used version for more profit? Why drop AC3 to $30 new and the used price to $27.99 when the day before the used price was $37.99? The used price is not what drive new game sales.[/QUOTE]
Take for example a game like Bioshock Infinite.
http://www.ebay.com/csc/Video-Games...from=R40&LH_Complete=1&_nkw=bioshock+infinite
Without those games going for $35 on eBay....
Why would GameStop be selling the game for 40?
http://www.gamestop.com/browse?nav=16k-3-bioshock+infinite,28zu0

I guarantee you that prices on eBay collapsed faster than the store's prices. It's really simple supply and demand. If you can buy a game from a store for $60 or that game on ebay for 30, most people will chose ebay. Thus demand at the store is lower and the store lowers prices. If the store sold out of the game every time they got it in stock, they'd never lower prices. The more competition you have, the lower your are forced to drive prices down. You can consider eBay as a competitor to traditional retailers in that sense. If the prices become too divergent, no one will purchase at retail and that will then force retail prices down until they reach an equilibrium.
 
[quote name='crunchewy']People love Steam. I think if Microsoft successfully emulates Steam, or better still, improves on it (the ability to trade/sell licenses would be an improvement for sure, the ability for multiple gamertags to play the purchased game - that's also an improvement) with a console, then they will have a hit on their hands. They will need to get past the initial uproar, though, which is, at the moment, deafening. AND this actually has to prove to be the case. That remains to be seen. Since this is Microsoft we are talking about, I am still a bit skeptical.

What will be popular for sure is that you can install your game and then not have to put the disc in again. I know I would like that. On the other hand, 500 GB is going to go pretty fast with games being Blu-ray sized, and fully installed. The external storage option I guess resolves that, but that's another expense. Too bad they didn't put a 1 TB drive in there.[/QUOTE]

Why are they going to have a hit? I mentioned this in my earlier post, but why do we need a box that does everything a PC does without any of the benefits of actual PC gaming? All the restrictions, all of the BS, but no modding, no community patches, no backwards compatibility.

You may get a few grandmothers to buy one for their grand kids, but anyone who loves Steam isn't going to be swayed by Xbox One becoming Steam Jr.

[quote name='cancerman1120']Again. People only have so much money to spend. Prices will be driven by sales of the game. It does not matter if they give you $10 or $30 for you trade because eventually prices will adjust to meet sales expectations. You cannot wring blood out of a stone.[/QUOTE]

Prices are driven by shelf space. Retailers only have so much shelf space, and if a game is getting old and sitting on the shelf, it gets a price cut to get it off of the shelf.

Digital is a different beast. Microsoft has recently started being nicer with their prices, but for a long while they were charging upwards of $30.00 for digital games that were retailing for under $20.00 brand new.

So allowing them to set the price for used games can still lead to disastrous results.

[quote name='cancerman1120']Actually you have not explained at al how used games lower new game prices. Demand lowers prices. Why would Gamestop ever put a new game on sale if they could sell the used version for more profit? Why drop AC3 to $30 new and the used price to $27.99 when the day before the used price was $37.99? The used price is not what drive new game sales.[/QUOTE]

By your argument, GameStop should never do pre-orders because they could just wait for trade ins to make more money. GameStop makes a lot of their money off of double dipping. They sell you the game new, you play it and trade it back for less than half of what you paid, then they sell the game used for ten dollars less than what you paid for it. They have plenty of incentive to sell you new games as well as used games.

Also, a used game market can certainly affect a new game market. If a new game sells well but starts to fall off to the secondary market, the publisher might drop the price of the new game to match the secondary market so they get the money for the sales. It's competition. The secondary market and the new market competing for sales. If the publisher or new market can simply say, "Nope, used market has to set the price to be only $5.00 less than my new game price AND I'm going to charge a $10.00 fee because they bought used." They now never have to worry about lowing their new game price to combat the used market again.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']
Lets stop for a second and compare this to the PC market which is what a lot of people are doing, "Hey it's not a big deal, it's just like steam". It's most definitely NOT like steam. Imagine you buy a PC from Dell and the ONLY PLACE you can buy games is from DELL. Imagine you buy a PC from Sony and the ONLY place you can buy games is from Sony. Imagine you build your own PC and you cannot buy games ANYWHERE. The reason steam is popular is because of prices. If steam was the only place to buy games it would not have the prices people are enjoying. In this same way what MS is doing is switching from a competitive marketplace (how the PC market functions with games) to an anti-competitive monopoly where all retailers will charge full price and have no motivation to lower prices or have sales quickly.
[/quote]

Meh. I have no issues with it on my Kindle where the Amazon store is the main outlet for e-books for it. There are some smaller stores that sell non-DRM books in Kindle format--but just self published and indie stuff I don't read anyway. All the major publisher books are only available in the Kindle store with Amazon's DRM attached and can't be sold or traded--some can be lent for 14 days, but not many major publishers allow that feature (it's up to them).

The only difference with games is the price is much higher. I don't mind that e-book prices don't change much as most are in the $5-10 range (talking novels, non-fiction etc., not textbooks and what not). Some launch a $15 when the hardcover is out and then drop in price. Occasionally get some good deals in the Kindle Daily Deals--but the bulk of that aren't books from major publishers or authors.

With games starting a $60, I'd have more issues with it if it lead to prices not dropping much. I don't think that will be the case though since they are still pressing discs and retail stores are buying discs and putting them on the shelves. They aren't going to want to get stuck with those discs so we'll still have sales as stores get rid of stock of games that aren't selling anymore just like we do now.

Once we go full digital in probably the following generation, there won't be that mechanism to drive down game prices. So we'll have to wait and see if consoles go the Steam route of having lots of good sales, or the e-book route of sparse sales on major titles.


[quote name='cancerman1120']Yeah publishers are still competing with each other for your money. Games are not one big amorphous blob. Individual games still compete with each other. If sales are down then prices go down also not matter if they are sold at 1 store or 1000 stores.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Even when they go full digital publishers want to sell as much as they can. No point leaving a game that's not selling at $60 when they spent millions developing it.

With the e-book examples all the publisher paid the author was maybe a small advance. And most authors don't even get that and just get a contract for a small percentage of sales (10% or whatever) so the publisher is out little or nothing if the book doesn't sell. Unlike game publishers who can be out millions and thus have incentive to drop prices and make whatever they can.

Granted, that could mean popular games end up like Nintendo first party titles and rarely drop in price since they keep selling at $60. And I'm ok with that. I have no qualms paying $60 for a AAA game in a genre I like. I've done that plenty of times this generation, and next gen would like to get back to only buying those kind of games--and I mostly buy those at launch anyway.

So I don't like all this price control BS, but it probably won't affect me much going forward anyway--beyond likely losing ability to sell games after beating them. And that will just make it easier for me to just focus on only buying and playing the AAA games like Gears, Halo, Skyrim, Mass Effect etc. Which is a good thing as I've gotten burnt out on gaming by trying to play more than just those--which I don't really have time for and get disenchanted by playing games that are less than cream of the crop quality, or trying to force myself to try genres I don't care much for.


[quote name='crunchewy']
What will be popular for sure is that you can install your game and then not have to put the disc in again. I know I would like that. On the other hand, 500 GB is going to go pretty fast with games being Blu-ray sized, and fully installed. The external storage option I guess resolves that, but that's another expense. Too bad they didn't put a 1 TB drive in there.[/QUOTE]

I do like this. Makes for quieter operation and nice to not have to change discs to change games.

Space could be an issue, but I'd just delete games after I was done with them rather than keeping thing on the HD. Can always redownload a game down the road in the rare instance I want to replay something.


[quote name='cancerman1120']Actually you have not explained at al how used games lower new game prices. Demand lowers prices. Why would Gamestop ever put a new game on sale if they could sell the used version for more profit? Why drop AC3 to $30 new and the used price to $27.99 when the day before the used price was $37.99? The used price is not what drive new game sales.[/QUOTE]

Yep. New game prices drive the used market--at least until games are out of print (like prior years sports titles etc.).

Otherwise, used games are usually just priced $5 or so lower than what the store sells the new copy for. Just enough to get people to buy used rather than new, while making the store as much profit as possible per copy sold.
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']Why are they going to have a hit? I mentioned this in my earlier post, but why do we need a box that does everything a PC does without any of the benefits of actual PC gaming? All the restrictions, all of the BS, but no modding, no community patches, no backwards compatibility.
[/QUOTE]

I don't want a PC anywhere near my living room. I don't want to have to keep a wireless keyboard and mouse stashed somewhere in the living room. I'm OCD about that kind of shit, and it's hard enough finding ways to stash game controllers etc. And I don't want a gaming PC sitting next to my TV stand as it would stick out like a sore thumb. Again, I'm just OCD about things being neat and looking nice.

I don't like all these restrictions, but a PC is too much hassle to hook up to the home theater.

Now a Steambox that just worked like a console in terms of being fully controllable with a controller, I'd seriously consider. But that would be the same as what we're hearing about Xbox one in terms of no game resells, used game market etc. But at least another option that may have better pricing.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']Again, this is not "successfully emulating steam". Can I download the "steam app" and buy games from steam for the Xbox One? How the hell can you compare PC games sold at a variety of retailers AND a variety of online sites with console games are sold at a variety of retailers and a single site? Steam doesn't have to send everyone the physical box and can cut prices faster. MS can do that right now with the Xbox 360 but the DO NOT. How is this at all the same?[/QUOTE]

I do agree completely that MS has a similar online store to Steam, but they intentionally decide to not make as many aggressive sales as Steam. But lets not judge Xbox One for something they haven't done yet. Will MS keep online prices high, almost definitely, but lets not all assume that Steam is better cause they have more sales before the other is even out. If MS implements a sales system similar to Steam, or something similar to the current PS Plus, that's a huge point to the system (I'm not holding my breath on that though).

Also, WTH are you talking about when you stated "How the hell can you compare PC games sold at a variety of retailers AND a variety of online sites with console games are sold at a variety of retailers and a single site?" I just don't understand your point (I was honestly confused, not being sarcastic).

PC games are sold at several retail stores, be it online or physical. Xbox games will be sold at several retail stores. PC games connect online and gives you access to the game by using its "system", be it Steam, Origin, Blizzard, etc. Xbox One games connect online and gives you access to the game using the Xbox. What is the difference. I'm not saying its exactly the same as Steam, but its not worlds apart is it.
 
Surprised so many here are seemingly fine with this set-up. This is effectively destroying YOUR ability to resell games on Ebay, Amazon, wherrever.

Under this set up, MS is controlling the entire aftermarket, so that you HAVE to deal with Gamestop or one of their "pre approved" retailers who will -- and I guarantee you they will -- give you less than you're currently getting for a trade-in. It also will keep used prices high on top of it (or certainly higher for a longer duration), seeing as MS -- and not consumers -- will be controlling the immediate pricing structure. Whatever you want to call it, it's no longer a free market system.

Some of you who think it's not going to impact prices -- IMO you're crazy. This is all about them making more money, having more control, "setting the market" as much as they can and taking the control out of the hands of YOUR ability to resell the game yourself. And if that's not the goal for them, then ask yourself -- why are they doing this in the first place?

This is why GS is onboard -- because it will give them a cut. Ultimately though it's all going to be a positive for them while negatively impacting the consumer at the same time. Guaranteed, if they go through with it.

There is no positive here for the consumer.

Wait so used games are the drivers of new game sales? News to me. Why would you think that? Best Buy are still going to have sales on new games like always. There is NO indication that new game prices would remain high.
Click to expand...

MS will be thrilled if they have millions of consumers like you who actually believe that.

BTW like Blasterman said, people trade in and sell games so they can afford to buy new ones. Maybe it doesn't work that way in your world, but rest assured there are likely millions of consumers who do that, which drives sales of new product. Not everyone goes out and drops $60 every time a new game comes out. Take away that market, and they're going to lose some consumers, or at the least the amount of money people can spend on a game...especially at a time when people have other options competing for their entertainment dollars.

This is a huge gamble for MS that could totally blow up in their faces -- especially if Sony won't be implementing the same thing.

It does not matter if they give you $10 or $30 for you trade because eventually prices will adjust to meet sales expectations.
Click to expand...

And you trust MS to make those adjustments accordingly in relation to the used game market as it currently stands, giving consumers comparable deals? Because it's no longer the public judging what the game is worth (like when you resell a game on Amazon or Ebay), it's MS and Gamestop telling you what it is.

This is a huge nightmare for MS if it pans out...
 
Again there is a lot of assumptions going on here with the used market. If you look at Ebay there were about 3,500 used copies of Bioshock Inifinte sold since it released on both systems. That represents roughly 0.35% of all new copies sold in the US currently (about 1 million copies). That is a blip on the radar.
 
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According to that same MCV article, which has just been updated, used games would sell for 35 pounds, so retailers would make 3.50. That's price fixing.
 
[quote name='phantomfriar2002']Surprised so many here are seemingly fine with this set-up. This is effectively destroying YOUR ability to resell games on Ebay, Amazon, wherrever.
[/QUOTE]

I do dislike that. But honestly, it's almost to the point of not being worth the hassle since I'm not buying and selling games near launch right now so I end up having to sell things for $10-15 usually to get it to move on Amazon Marketplace.

Nice to get a little money back, but almost not worth the hassle of listing and shipping since that's just not a lot of money to me anymore.

If I can't resell games next gen, I'd just buy a lot less. Probably like 3-5 AAA games a year and end up spending less money on gaming than I do now, and have no backlog and be able to take my time and enjoy each game fully due to not feeling pressured to just see the credits roll and move on to clearing another game out of the backlog.

So it's not ideal, but it's not a deal breaker for me either. But I do still care and like having that option to resell games. So if I can't resell Xbox One games, but can resell PS4 games that may be enough to get me to go with a PS4. But it would still be hard to walk away from Halo, Gears and my friends on Xbox (unless they switch too).
 
[quote name='nightmare452']I do agree completely that MS has a similar online store to Steam, but they intentionally decide to not make as many aggressive sales as Steam. But lets not judge Xbox One for something they haven't done yet. Will MS keep online prices high, almost definitely, but lets not all assume that Steam is better cause they have more sales before the other is even out. If MS implements a sales system similar to Steam, or something similar to the current PS Plus, that's a huge point to the system (I'm not holding my breath on that though).

Also, WTH are you talking about when you stated "How the hell can you compare PC games sold at a variety of retailers AND a variety of online sites with console games are sold at a variety of retailers and a single site?" I just don't understand your point (I was honestly confused, not being sarcastic).

PC games are sold at several retail stores, be it online or physical. Xbox games will be sold at several retail stores. PC games connect online and gives you access to the game by using its "system", be it Steam, Origin, Blizzard, etc. Xbox One games connect online and gives you access to the game using the Xbox. What is the difference. I'm not saying its exactly the same as Steam, but its not worlds apart is it.[/QUOTE]
PC is an open environment/system and consoles are closed environments/systems.
 
[quote name='phantomfriar2002']Surprised so many here are seemingly fine with this set-up. This is effectively destroying YOUR ability to resell games on Ebay, Amazon, wherrever.

Under this set up, MS is controlling the entire aftermarket, so that you HAVE to deal with Gamestop or one of their "pre approved" retailers who will -- and I guarantee you they will -- give you less than you're currently getting for a trade-in. It also will keep used prices high on top of it (or certainly higher for a longer duration), seeing as MS -- and not consumers -- will be controlling the immediate pricing structure. Whatever you want to call it, it's no longer a free market system.

Some of you who think it's not going to impact prices -- IMO you're crazy. This is all about them making more money, having more control, "setting the market" as much as they can and taking the control out of the hands of YOUR ability to resell the game yourself. And if that's not the goal for them, then ask yourself -- why are they doing this in the first place?

This is why GS is onboard -- because it will give them a cut. Ultimately though it's all going to be a positive for them while negatively impacting the consumer at the same time. Guaranteed, if they go through with it.

There is no positive here for the consumer.



MS will be thrilled if they have millions of consumers like you who actually believe that.

BTW like Blasterman said, people trade in and sell games so they can afford to buy new ones. Maybe it doesn't work that way in your world, but rest assured there are likely millions of consumers who do that, which drives sales of new product. Not everyone goes out and drops $60 every time a new game comes out. Take away that market, and they're going to lose some consumers, or at the least the amount of money people can spend on a game...especially at a time when people have other options competing for their entertainment dollars.

This is a huge gamble for MS that could totally blow up in their faces -- especially if Sony won't be implementing the same thing.



And you trust MS to make those adjustments accordingly in relation to the used game market as it currently stands, giving consumers comparable deals? Because it's no longer the public judging what the game is worth (like when you resell a game on Amazon or Ebay), it's MS and Gamestop telling you what it is.

This is a huge nightmare for MS if it pans out...[/QUOTE]

How is it NOT the public determining worth? Is MS going to force you to buy the games? People are acting like the secondary markets are the drivers of the economy. Exactly how has the used market shifted in terms of GS? You have no proof they are going to just give the bare minimum in trade value. All speculation. They want as much volume in sales as possible and stiffing you on trades only limits that.


I NEVER said I am fine with this. I sell my used games all the time and it does piss me off not to be able to use Ebay anymore. I am not even buying these for at least a year after release. But half the sky is falling shit people are claiming is ridiculous. PC gaming has no secondary market and it seems to be doing just fine.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Again there is a lot of assumptions going on here with the used market. If you look at Ebay there were about 3,500 used copies sold since it released on both systems. That represents roughly 0.35% of all new copies sold in the US currently (about 1 million copies). That is a blip on the radar.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure this mostly has to do with the estimates of GameStop making two billion dollars in used game sales. I can totally imagine EA execs sitting at their long table going, "But... that's our money... we make games... give us... give us..."

The real question is what happens to game innovation. Are people going to take fewer chances on out there games like Killer 7, No More Heroes, and Mirror's Edge if they can't rent/borrow them first? A Demo isn't always the best way to tell about a game, especially when shit like Aliens: Colonial Marines demo happens.

I'm real curious about how consumers will react, and if we will wind up in a market of nothing but Halo, CoD, Gears, and Killzone... Oh, and those sports titles.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']According to that same MCV article, which has just been updated, used games would sell for 35 pounds, so retailers would make 3.50. That's price fixing.[/QUOTE]

"These same unconfirmed reports also suggest that the activation cost for consumers buying or borrowing pre-owned software will be £35."

Again all speculation. How can an article claim retailers can set used prices yet they will all be £35?
 
[quote name='Blaster man']PC is an open environment/system and consoles are closed environments/systems.[/QUOTE]
Expanding on this a bit: Can I or can I not download games from MS and Steam on my Xbox? Can I or can I not download games from MS and Steam on my PC?

To be clear, I'm not saying there will be NO competition in the console environment. By it's very nature the console environment has less competition than PC and that's why I'm saying that creating a steam like platform on Xbox One is not the same as creating the Steam platform on PC. The console already has less competition and they're further limiting it with their used game policies and DRM. This will not open a new world of super sales on the console like Steam. This is NOTHING like Steam because the console is not the PC.


[quote name='Broken Cage']I'm sure this mostly has to do with the estimates of GameStop making two billion dollars in used game sales. I can totally imagine EA execs sitting at their long table going, "But... that's our money... we make games... give us... give us..."

The real question is what happens to game innovation. Are people going to take fewer chances on out there games like Killer 7, No More Heroes, and Mirror's Edge if they can't rent/borrow them first? A Demo isn't always the best way to tell about a game, especially when shit like Aliens: Colonial Marines demo happens.

I'm real curious about how consumers will react, and if we will wind up in a market of nothing but Halo, CoD, Gears, and Killzone... Oh, and those sports titles.[/QUOTE]

according to Gamestop's SEC filing, they lost over $2 a share last year.
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']
I'm real curious about how consumers will react, and if we will wind up in a market of nothing but Halo, CoD, Gears, and Killzone... Oh, and those sports titles.[/QUOTE]

That is a worthy concern, especially with the blocking of indie games from the XBL Marketplace. Though PSN will still be an outlet for them.

But, again, this is something that I dislike in principle that just doesn't effect me. I already really only play the blockbuster mainstream games like Halo, Gears, Uncharted, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Bioshock, CoD etc. I don't play enough games to even keep up with those kind of releases, much less to take chances on other genres, play B-level games etc.
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']
I'm real curious about how consumers will react, and if we will wind up in a market of nothing but Halo, CoD, Gears, and Killzone... Oh, and those sports titles.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately this has been a problem even with used games. EA is to blame for this a ton.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Again there is a lot of assumptions going on here with the used market. If you look at Ebay there were about 3,500 used copies of Bioshock Inifinte sold since it released on both systems. That represents roughly 0.35% of all new copies sold in the US currently (about 1 million copies). That is a blip on the radar.[/QUOTE]

This is why no matter how much people complain about the issue MS is going to stay with their used games policy. I bet they've already presented stats liks this to publishers, and to investors. Getting rid of used sales will increase their profits, and no matter how small that profit may be they want it. That was just one game....
 
[quote name='Blaster man']PC is an open environment/system and consoles are closed environments/systems.[/QUOTE]

I knew that already. Apple's iOS is also a closed system, and it sells more. But elaborate on how the Steam, Origin, Blizzard 'systems' are essentially and profoundly different and more flexible that the supposed Xbox One system? Not saying Xbox One is better, far from it, but how is one much more "evil" than the other.

I do agree with what others are saying on price fixing. But it seems some here are really going overboard with the assumptions and end-of-the-world scenarios they are interpolating.

[quote name='dmaul1114']If I can't resell games next gen, I'd just buy a lot less. Probably like 3-5 AAA games a year and end up spending less money on gaming than I do now, and have no backlog and be able to take my time and enjoy each game fully due to not feeling pressured to just see the credits roll and move on to clearing another game out of the backlog.

So it's not ideal, but it's not a deal breaker for me either. But I do still care and like having that option to resell games. So if I can't resell Xbox One games, but can resell PS4 games that may be enough to get me to go with a PS4. But it would still be hard to walk away from Halo, Gears and my friends on Xbox (unless they switch too).[/QUOTE]

High five. I'm in the same boat you are. PS4 can "win" (and I hate using the term win here, these are companies, they both win as long as they make money, they don't care as much as we do; why is it everything has to be based on a win or lose mentality) if they either offer free online mp or don't block used games. Which ever company blinks first and does one of these two things exclusively "wins". Right now, offering free online mp is more of a system seller than anything else for me. I can handle no more used games, I buy new 99% anyhow. But I find myself not leaving the Halo and Fable games over the Killzone or Infamous games yet (I do love Infamous though).
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']"These same unconfirmed reports also suggest that the activation cost for consumers buying or borrowing pre-owned software will be £35."

Again all speculation. How can an article claim retailers can set used prices yet they will all be £35?[/QUOTE]
For me the question is how are they going to burn the information on the disc. Unless they go with a Steam like activation system, and the disc is just the install data to circumvent long download times.
 
How is it NOT the public determining worth? Is MS going to force you to buy the games? People are acting like the secondary markets are the drivers of the economy. Exactly how has the used market shifted in terms of GS? You have no proof they are going to just give the bare minimum in trade value. All speculation. They want as much volume in sales as possible and stiffing you on trades only limits that.
Click to expand...

If that article (or something equivalent to it) pans out, if you can't see that MS and Gamestop (or any of the MS-approved retailers) will be engaging in price-fixing, it's useless arguing with you. Again -- why are they doing this in the first place? They want CONTROL over the used game market. They don't want you, or me, or any consumer determining the worth of a game as it stands right now, where if you don't like that game you just bought for $60, you can sell it for what someone is willing to pay for it. Those days will be absolutely gone.

Of course if a game dies they'll still put it on sale -- but it's not going to be the same. It'll be done when MS, GS and the publisher dictate. If sales are bad, and they want to reduce the price, they'll do it -- but it's still going to be a market controlled by them. Less so by consumers than it currently stands. They want a larger cut, they want to set the market. Guaranteed that used prices will remain higher for a longer duration, and what you'll be getting in return won't be as much, because you're going to be giving a resale cut to MS, and GS, and the publisher at the same time.

And furthermore -- where's their competition going to be coming from, at least as far as reducing the price on used content is concerned? There won't be any used game sales anywhere else except the market MS, GS or their "approved retailers" who accept the trades controls. Where's their incentive to make immediate price cuts going to come from? Again, it doesn't mean they won't reduce the price in regard to what a game is worth -- but it's all going to be a market controlled by their little cartel. They'll keep prices higher as long as they can with consumers having no other way of buying a used game except from their pre-approved group of retailers, whether it's GS or whoever.

IF it pans out, that is not a free market system, and it does make it seem like a situation that could violate certain laws. Again, we'll see if they actually go through with something like this, but I get the sinking feeling it's going to happen.

But half the sky is falling shit people are claiming is ridiculous. PC gaming has no secondary market and it seems to be doing just fine.
Click to expand...

I could care less about PC gaming -- I like consoles -- and while the sky's not falling, I can tell you I will never fork over hundreds of dollars for a machine that's going to be so anti-consumer as this one seemingly is.

People are reacting negatively all over the place because their press conference sucked, as it introduced a million TV applications most of the core gaming group could care less about (it's as big as a DVR without DVR functionality -- whoppee), while introducing anti-consumer elements like this used-game scenario seemingly will at the same time.

There is no benefit to the consumer if this pans out. I can't imagine why you'd be surprised people are pissed off about it. MS is supposed to be giving people reasons for buying the console -- not coming up with reasons not to.
 
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[quote name='TooPoor']For me the question is how are they going to burn the information on the disc. Unless they go with a Steam like activation system, and the disc is just the install data to circumvent long download times.[/QUOTE]

Yep. That's what they've implied. The games must be installed, and they will come with an activation keys. Pretty sure some MS reps confirmed those two.

Used games will involve deactivating the original install and selling the person who buys the new game a new key as part of the transaction price. This part is just speculation, as they haven't given details on how the used game/trade in system will work (just that they will have a system), but seems pretty likely.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep. That's what they've implied. The games must be installed, and they will come with an activation keys. Pretty sure some MS reps confirmed those two.[/QUOTE]
I missed that piece of news. So if true then it's exactly like Steam and my free rental days through reselling on eBay are over. Better work harder to raise my salary lol.
 
[quote name='nightmare452']
High five. I'm in the same boat you are. PS4 can "win" (and I hate using the term win here, these are companies, they both win as long as they make money, they don't care as much as we do; why is it everything has to be based on a win or lose mentality) if they either offer free online mp or don't block used games. Which ever company blinks first and does one of these two things exclusively "wins". Right now, offering free online mp is more of a system seller than anything else for me. I can handle no more used games, I buy new 99% anyhow. But I find myself not leaving the Halo and Fable games over the Killzone or Infamous games yet (I do love Infamous though).[/QUOTE]

I don't mind paying for Live. $50 a year isn't much to me, and the Live experience for me has been much better than the PSN experience. Things like party chat, MUCH, MUCH faster downloads etc.

Now granted, Sony could improve regular, free PSN and add things like Party Chat and make the download speeds the same or better than Xbox Live and that would change my equation for sure as then paying for Live wouldn't be getting anything above what it's free on PS.

PS+ is great though, I like paying $50 a year and getting all those free games. But honestly, I think I've played two of them over a year plus as it just ends up adding games I didn't care enough to buy new around launch to my backlog.

I'll keep it until I get a next gen console as it gives me a bunch more games to play in the meantime. But I'm not sure I'd pay for PS+ next gen if I end up going PS4 as I really want to avoid ever having a backlog and just buying games one at a time so I can take my time and enjoy them fully and not feel any pressure to just beat them and move on to the next one.
 
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Paying for live kind of sucks if you have a gaming family. Family Gold was better, but still not great. It's also now gone. However they have improved this with the One. Now one Live sub works for everyone on that console. That's a big improvement. I *hope* that they bring this to the 360 as well. It seems like maybe they will because the same gold account works on both consoles? Maybe that's wishful thinking....
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']
The real question is what happens to game innovation. Are people going to take fewer chances on out there games like Killer 7, No More Heroes, and Mirror's Edge if they can't rent/borrow them first? A Demo isn't always the best way to tell about a game, especially when shit like Aliens: Colonial Marines demo happens.
[/QUOTE]

Yep, those hidden gems go away under this price fixing structure. All that will remain will be the Halos, Maddens and Call of Dutys of the world.

You have to look no further than Condemned or Kameo. 8 year old launch titles. Currently $20 and $15 via MS GoD, or less than $5 used.
 
I keep rattling this in the old noggin of mine.

"While there have been many potential scenarios discussed, we have only confirmed that we designed Xbox One to enable our customers to trade in and resell games at retail. Beyond that, we have not confirmed any specific scenarios. Another piece of clarification around playing games at a friend’s house – should you choose to play your game at your friend’s house, there is no fee to play that game while you are signed in to your profile.”

Does this mean dual sign is is dead? I understand I can play on MY profile wherever I go. Is my buddy S.O.L. when trying to play couch-co-op with me? Will his data not be saved to his profile along with whatever achievements were unlocked at the time? Sounds like he may be forced to use a Guest account under my GT to even play the game.

Or it may not even matter as couch co-op is dying...
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I don't mind paying for Live. $50 a year isn't much to me, and the Live experience for me has been much better than the PSN experience. Things like party chat, MUCH, MUCH faster downloads etc.

PS+ is great though, I like paying $50 a year and getting all those free games. But honestly, I think I've played two of them over a year plus as it just ends up adding games I didn't care enough to buy new around launch to my backlog.

I'll keep it until I get a next gen console as it gives me a bunch more games to play in the meantime. But I'm not sure I'd pay for PS+ next gen if I end up going PS4 as I really want to avoid ever having a backlog and just buying games one at a time so I can take my time and enjoy them fully and not feel any pressure to just beat them and move on to the next one.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, again, same here. I pay for Live, and the annual $50 isn't much for me, but with less time very year to play online games, a free online mp system would convince me to switch. I am paid for Live till 2016 or something, but I don't use it as much anymore.

I have PS+, but I'm letting my subscription expire in July. Only played like 5 games the last two years out of it, of those, only one I genuinely wanted to buy anyway. Every game gotten from plus hasn't really interested me more than a demo just to try it would have. And I have both a PS3 and a Vita.

Even with these supposedly negative news for the Xbox One, I still don't see myself changing over easily. I prefer the Xbox controller over the PS3 controller (although the PS4 one is redesigned). I prefer Live 10 times over PSN, it downloads way faster for me. Once it took 7 hours to download a PS3 game on a Thursday morning (not rush hour), on 360, same game, took 20 minutes. Until Sony shows otherwise, MS knows how to develop better OS software.
 
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