April NPD Numbers

[quote name='PyroGamer']And Tomb Raider.

PS3 has Ratchet and Clank coming and 360 has Banjo.[/quote]

Tomb Raider isn't a platformer, it's an action game.

360
Sonic the Hedgehog
Bango Kazooie (future)
The Simpsons (future)
and some licensed games (Open Season & Ratatouille)

PS3
Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction (future)
Sonic thee Hedgehog
The Simpsons (future)
Jak and Daxter: Lost Frontier (rumored) (future)
and some licensed games (Ratatouille)

Wii
Super Paper Mario
Nights: Journey of Dreams (future)
Super Mario Galaxy (future)
Sonic and the Secret Rings
Dewy's Adventure (future)
The Simpsons (future)
Kirby (future)
and a bunch of licensed games (Spongebob, Ratatouille, Open Season, etc.)
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']I personally just don't see it. The Wii's whole idea was to appeal to non-"hardcore"-gamers. An underpowered system that doesn't aim for realistic graphics or immersive sound. Now if we start seeing some more fantastic immersive titles on it, that would be great... of course, like I've said already: show me that type of game on the Wii and I'll show you a game that would have been better suited on the 360 or PS3.[/quote]Realism in graphics doesn't equal immersive for me. I was far more immersed in Wind Waker than Gears of War. Rainbow Six Vegas is pretty immersive, but I wouldn't say any more than the original Splinter Cell.

There's certainly modifications that can be made to tweak things here and there. But you always have the Uncanny Valley to worry about--that the more things are made to look real, the faker they tend to look. The Wii is perfectly capable of having those environments and expierences created on it. It's already got one in Zelda, and as I said, that game would've been far less immersive on the 360, even with prettier graphics.

If the 360/PS3 want to create truly immersive, realistic experiences, they need to not foucs so much on texture quality but make it so these characters don't look like they move with leg braces on. Animation quality is far more "suspended disbelief" breaking for me than some pixelated textures or some jagged edges. That's why a stylized, even cartoony, art design can allow that to work better. Compare how Mario moves with how the players in Madden move. One is designed to be "real" looking, but the other is designed to move in his world by his rules. Like a cartoon character than can fall 80 stories and be fine, the immersion of the game is created by the rules of that game executed properly. When you get too "real" and have to play by "real" rules, it all just becomes fake looking.

The Wii is seeking to broaden out their audience, yes, but that doesn't mean they've given up on long-time gamers and what they might want to play. Especially with the way it's flying off the shelves, expect many different types of games on the way.
 
[quote name='FriskyTanuki']Tomb Raider isn't a platformer, it's an action game.[/QUOTE]
Platformer and Action Game are not mutually exclusive...

Sonic is an action game as well.


Yeah, Tomb Raider TOTALLY isn't a platformer.

Anyways, like I've already said, Platformers are a popular niche genre at best. Ever since videogaming popularly entered the third dimension the popularity of platformers has wained, giving over to action/adventure and first person shooters.

Jak and Daxter has moved further and further away from platforming with every sequel, the last Ratchet game was so much more an action shooter, with much fewer platforming levels. The last Rayman was a minigame compilation. In fact, the last really great real platformer I remember was Psychonauts, and that sold like shit.

Now, if you do want traditional Platformers the best system for them is probably the Wii, with Kirby and Mario Galaxy coming out soon.

[quote name='daroga']Realism in graphics doesn't equal immersive for me. I was far more immersed in Wind Waker than Gears of War. Rainbow Six Vegas is pretty immersive, but I wouldn't say any more than the original Splinter Cell.

There's certainly modifications that can be made to tweak things here and there. But you always have the Uncanny Valley to worry about--that the more things are made to look real, the faker they tend to look. The Wii is perfectly capable of having those environments and expierences created on it. It's already got one in Zelda, and as I said, that game would've been far less immersive on the 360, even with prettier graphics.

If the 360/PS3 want to create truly immersive, realistic experiences, they need to not foucs so much on texture quality but make it so these characters don't look like they move with leg braces on. Animation quality is far more "suspended disbelief" breaking for me than some pixelated textures or some jagged edges. That's why a stylized, even cartoony, art design can allow that to work better. Compare how Mario moves with how the players in Madden move. One is designed to be "real" looking, but the other is designed to move in his world by his rules. Like a cartoon character than can fall 80 stories and be fine, the immersion of the game is created by the rules of that game executed properly. When you get too "real" and have to play by "real" rules, it all just becomes fake looking.[/quote]I don't remember saying anything about realistic graphics, but for the record I totally agree with you... Graphics barely ever attempt to mimick real life perfectly and turn out half decent. The best graphics are by far the stylized graphics, which artisticaly acheive something better than photorealism by stylistically portraying things.

But processing power is required to do that, and the Wii doesn't have it.

Even games like Alen Wake, it's stylized graphics. It's all noiry and dark and mysterious. Gears of War is far from photorealistic: everything in that is highly stylized.

I really don't think the graphics in Twilight Princess were fantastic, they did great with the hardware they had, but it would have had far more potential on a system with more power. The only thing left is the fact that you swing your Wiimote to hack and use it to aim... some people may find that immersive but I someone am immersed just as well when holding a regular controller.

And if you just want people to stop focusing on textures (and, I assume, effects) and focus on animations... well yeah, that requires PROCESSING POWER too. And guess what: the 360 and PS3 are well ahead of the Wii in that department.

If we ignore the huge sales and the fact that Nintendo is making games for it, the Wii has absolutely zero advantages, from a technical standpoint, besides its controller... and even its controller has so far been a hindrance to alot of games that have come out so far (and yes, I fully expect and hope that will change).

The Wii is seeking to broaden out their audience, yes, but that doesn't mean they've given up on long-time gamers and what they might want to play. Especially with the way it's flying off the shelves, expect many different types of games on the way.
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I totally agree. It's what Roufuss said about the DS, once these things sell insanely well they're destined to have games made for them.
 
I really think, in 3D, the platformer has turned into the action/adventure genre, and they've always been kinda blurred anyway. Are the NES Castlevanias Platformers or Adventure games? There's games at the extremes, Mario 64 for platformer and Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) for Action, but the vast majority of 3rd person games fall in the middle of those two.

Pyro, I'd hesitate to say that the Wii lacks the power to give a good, stylized game. Super Paper Mario would attest to that, as would Okami on the PS2 and Wind Waker on the Gamecube. I do truly believe that Sonic and the Secret Rings is one of the most beautiful games on any current gen system. That game has amazing visuals (that rush by like crazy ;) ).

Now, certain AI things require a lot of power (though, I'm not sure I've ever seen any AI good enough to justify all the power it supposedly uses), and physics are key. Physics use a lot of power; it takes a lot of power to have a lot of things on screen at once. That's one thing we won't see on the Wii, I'm sure, is a draw-distance like Crackdown or a populated area like Dead Rising.

But games don't need those things to be good games. I'm actually kind of glad we'll have systems that are so different this go round, as long as games are tailored (even if ported) to each systems' strengths and control-wise aren't handicapped on the Wii, and graphically aren't handicapped on the PS3/360.
 
[quote name='daroga']I really think, in 3D, the platformer has turned into the action/adventure genre, and they've always been kinda blurred anyway. Are the NES Castlevanias Platformers or Adventure games? There's games at the extremes, Mario 64 for platformer and Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) for Action, but the vast majority of 3rd person games fall in the middle of those two.[/quote]Yes.

Platform games are an extremely niche genre that has been fading across the board. While Nintendo still has a few franchises (and add to that NiGHTS, it's looking like platformer heaven), Rayman has lately released a non-platformer game, Jak and Daxter and Ratchet have moved away from pure platformer (though they say Ratchet is turning back to platformer as of late)... when you look at the 360 having Bajo... well, compared to everything else that's pretty damn good for the traditional platformer side of things.

Pyro, I'd hesitate to say that the Wii lacks the power to give a good, stylized game. Super Paper Mario would attest to that, as would Okami on the PS2 and Wind Waker on the Gamecube. I do truly believe that Sonic and the Secret Rings is one of the most beautiful games on any current gen system. That game has amazing visuals (that rush by like crazy ;) ).
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I'm not saying they can't pull it off, I'm saying that the Wii simply isn't the best place to realize the full potential of that type of game (unless we mean the full potential sales-wise... though I actually haven't seen the attach rate for Wiis).

Now, certain AI things require a lot of power (though, I'm not sure I've ever seen any AI good enough to justify all the power it supposedly uses), and physics are key. Physics use a lot of power; it takes a lot of power to have a lot of things on screen at once. That's one thing we won't see on the Wii, I'm sure, is a draw-distance like Crackdown or a populated area like Dead Rising.
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Both things which made those games so immersive. See, Graphics =/= immersion, they're just one of the factors that help. And a million other factors that help are intrinsicaly linked with processing power and usability.

But games don't need those things to be good games. I'm actually kind of glad we'll have systems that are so different this go round
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I'm really happy about that too.

See, I'm not saying that they couldn't PULL IT OFF on the Wii, I'm just saying the Wii is entirely contrary, design wise, to the goals of graphic intensive, physics intensive, audio-intensive, AI-intensive, intensive in any way games.

I look forward to what I foresee as some great games on the Wii, I'm just saying, I don't want that to cut into the technical progression of videogames.
 
[quote name='daroga']I have to completely disagree with you. I've had a lot of great highs from games, but the highest came in December of last year. [Zelday Spoiler]
Taking the final down thrust on Ganon I was literally off the couch thrusting the remote down towards the floor. I was not in my apartment in Michigan; I was freaking saving Hyrule.
[/QUOTE]
I missed this post.

Good post.

These are exactly the moments I was talking about. It's a rare experience that the moment is perfect, but if a game doesn't have at least a bit of this, then it's usually a waste of time for me (unless it has something else to offer). Just recently boss fights in Lost Planet gave me that feeling, rushing the Nazi's (in the part before you blow up the building with the Nazis in it) in COD2 gave me goosebumps. R6V was pretty immersive in a very cinematic way... I felt like a hero in that level when you're on the strip and there is a family seperated by gunfire and you reunite them and they thank you and shit. I'm such a sucker for that, I honestly felt so good, firing a round into the terrorist's head and reuniting the family... it was like... this is why I play videogames. Oblivion is very immersive at certain points. Alot of the quests are pure masterpieces.

Personally I dunno... I still have had so many immersive experiences with a regular controller in my hand. It seems to me the controller becomes your mental link to the game. You're not swinging your arm down in real life -- you are swinging your arm down in the game. With a controller I can become so absorbed -- so IN the game that the controls are just an after-thought. It's not the motions I take in real life that are immersive, it's those on the screen that are.

I do find it funny that you think defeating Ganon in a Zelda game is a spoiler
:lol:
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']Platformer and Action Game are not mutually exclusive...

Sonic is an action game as well.


Yeah, Tomb Raider TOTALLY isn't a platformer.

Anyways, like I've already said, Platformers are a popular niche genre at best. Ever since videogaming popularly entered the third dimension the popularity of platformers has wained, giving over to action/adventure and first person shooters.

Jak and Daxter has moved further and further away from platforming with every sequel, the last Ratchet game was so much more an action shooter, with much fewer platforming levels. The last Rayman was a minigame compilation. In fact, the last really great real platformer I remember was Psychonauts, and that sold like shit.

Now, if you do want traditional Platformers the best system for them is probably the Wii, with Kirby and Mario Galaxy coming out soon.[/quote]
Ratchet and Clank is part of an evolving platforming genre called action-platformers that infuses action elements into a platformer. Jak and Daxter followed that same path. The last Ratchet was indeed a platformer (Size Matters on PSP), but if you're refering to Deadlocked, it was an experiment rather than a turn in the series. Future is much more like the first game, if you haven't seen the video. Platformers aren't limited to just appearing on consoles these days. ;)

[quote name='PyroGamer']I'm sorry, but once again, the website you show proves nothing.

Tomb Raider may well be an action adventure game, but that doesn't make it any less of a platformer.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=tomb+raider+%22platformer%22+-%22movie+licence+become+a+business+sim%22&btnG=Search[/quote]
Tomb Raider is as much of a platformer as Zelda is. Just because it has elements of the genre doesn't make it a part of that genre. Ratchet and Clank lets you level up your health, attributes, and weapons, but nobody calls it an RPG. The platforming in games like Tomb Raider are mere puzzle elements to keep you from running straight from one end of a level to the other.
 
[quote name='FriskyTanuki']Ratchet and Clank is part of an evolving platforming genre called action-platformers that infuses action elements into a platformer.[/quote]
Tomb Raider is as much of a platformer as Zelda is. Just because it has elements of the genre doesn't make it a part of that genre.
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I'm sorry... so Ratchet and Clank is an action/platformer but Tomb Raider can't be?

Yeah..... No. Sorry. Don't see it.
 
[quote name='io'] Oh, and besides, the argument that you can't have epic games on the Wii is utter horseshit).[/QUOTE]

Right.... as if every "epic" game on past generations systems have all now somehow become non epic.

You should know io, that once a new system comes out all past games on any and every system, become shit and anything not on par with the highest rated system (graphics and or storage wise) is pure crap and not "epic" in the least. I thought this was common knowledge by now.
 
Well, there are a disturbing amount of people that think exactly like that. When something shinier comes out, it completely invalidates everything that came before, and is no longer acceptable for them to play, despite that they at one time enjoyed it.

This is exactly the stance of some of the proponents of "next-gen".
 
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